Beijing to Judge Every Resident Based on Behavior by End of 2020 (Bloomberg)

entremet · Nov 24, 2018

China's plan to judge each of its 1.3 billion people based on their social behavior is moving a step closer to reality, with Beijing set to adopt a lifelong points program by 2021 that assigns personalized ratings for each resident.

The capital city will pool data from several departments to reward and punish some 22 million citizens based on their actions and reputations by the end of 2020, according to a plan posted on the Beijing municipal government's website on Monday. Those with better so-called social credit will get "green channel" benefits while those who violate laws will find life more difficult.

The Beijing project will improve blacklist systems so that those deemed untrustworthy will be "unable to move even a single step," according to the government's plan. Xinhua reported on the proposal Tuesday, while the report posted on the municipal government's website is dated July 18.

China has long experimented with systems that grade its citizens, rewarding good behavior with streamlined services while punishing bad actions with restrictions and penalties. Critics say such moves are fraught with risks and could lead to systems that reduce humans to little more than a report card.

While reported previously, now we have some timetables. This is extremely troubling, not just because of the authoritarian nature, but how it can spread to other nations. China is massively influential.

In the article, some of the punishment includes banning from international flights and high speed trains. How do theytrack everything? Well smartphones and integrated online payment services, which are then tied to government IDs as per law.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ery-resident-based-on-behavior-by-end-of-2020

Lulu · Nov 24, 2018

what could go wrong?

Nude_Tayne · Nov 24, 2018

This is the largest country population-wise on the planet doing this. It's scary shit. When will this kind of thing become normalized in other countries in one form or another?

YuYu · Nov 24, 2018

What a backwards country.

Mivey · Nov 24, 2018

Lulu said:
what could go wrong?

Nothing, everything that we would think of "this going wrong", is exactly what they intend. The more dystopian, the more they have achieved the kind of control of everyday life that only modern technology allows.
It's like China's government read 1984 and thought it was a manual.

Atisha · Nov 24, 2018

Biggest Zealot Wins?

Narag · Nov 24, 2018

https://www.resetera.com/threads/so...ws-pretty-close-to-living-black-mirror.82849/

SasaBassa · Nov 24, 2018

China is clearly a wonderful place

Honestly, when's Wakanda? I would absolutely move there in a heartbeat to not deal with the rest of the world's fuckery.

Ocean Bones · Nov 24, 2018

Watch suicide rates shoot up. Gonna make life. Immensely more difficult for millions.

DavidDesu · Nov 24, 2018

If anything else, this is one way to kick start a revolt against the governance of that country. Riling up millions of people by reducing them to nothing means people far more likely to risk everything they've got to topple the system that made them that way.

China could be an amazing global leader, but never like this. Breaking point just come and this is a massive accelerant to that.

We all hope anyway.

entremet · Nov 24, 2018

Nude_Tayne said:
This is the largest country population-wise on the planet doing this. It's scary shit. When will this kind of thing become normalized in other countries in one form or another?

Europe has the EU, which has been very pro-privacy. That's a guardrail. The US, ironically the US is protected from this from fringe right wing elements. Those elements have had tons of theories on the having government issued IDs, as least by the federal government. So there's less traction here. We also have a pro-privacy Constitution, however, that has been shown to be easily abused by SCOTUS rulings, which have been the opposite of pro-privacy of late.

Remember, Chinese laws is entrenched with these services, which require them to be linked to an official government ID database. The US doesn't have such a system. SSN are probably the most common, but they are poor IDs.

ArkhamFantasy · Nov 24, 2018

Cow Mengde · Nov 24, 2018

DavidDesu said:
If anything else, this is one way to kick start a revolt against the governance of that country. Riling up millions of people by reducing them to nothing means people far more likely to risk everything they've got to topple the system that made them that way.

China could be an amazing global leader, but never like this. Breaking point just come and this is a massive accelerant to that.

We all hope anyway.

This is what I'm hoping for as well.

zma1013 · Nov 24, 2018

Putting the other obvious terrible implications aside, won't this like, uhh, eventually wreck their domestic economy if large portions of the population are exlcuded from traveling and doing stuff?

Sully · Nov 24, 2018

And you see interviews of Chinese folks that seem genuinely fine with this. They only think about the positives of the problems this solves for Chinese society like having more available credit and safer traffic but don't think or are too scared to speak up about everything that this will do

Commedieu · Nov 24, 2018

this is concerning considering all of their loans they're giving out to asia pacific/africa.

Seems like thats fertile gorunds for this to spread outside of China.

entremet · Nov 24, 2018

Narag said:
https://www.resetera.com/threads/so...ws-pretty-close-to-living-black-mirror.82849/

Why do people start thread topics on the tweets instead of the source article? It makes searching harder.

shaneo632 · Nov 24, 2018

CountAntonio · Nov 24, 2018

This is awful.

Saifu · Nov 24, 2018

Yep this is some Psycho Pass shit.

Becks' · Nov 24, 2018

Welcome to Airstrip One, Oceania.

a Master Ninja · Nov 24, 2018

Ocean Bones said:
Watch suicide rates shoot up.

I imagine the Chinese government would be happy to be rid of those "undesirables".

Biestmann · Nov 24, 2018

Steel · Nov 24, 2018

Sully said:
And you see interviews of Chinese folks that seem genuinely fine with this. They only think about the positives of the problems this solves for Chinese society like having more available credit and safer traffic but don't think or are too scared to speak up about everything that this will do

"Oh, I see you spoke up against the social credit policy in 2018, eh? Well, sorry now you can't travel until you suc- I mean be a good Chinese Citizen."

Ocean Bones said:
Watch suicide rates shoot up. Gonna make life. Immensely more difficult for millions.

Working as intended.

entremet · Nov 24, 2018

zma1013 said:
Putting the other obvious terrible implications aside, won't this like, uhh, eventually wreck their domestic economy if large portions of the population are exlcuded from traveling and doing stuff?

I don't know. I think the aim is to create a super compliant populace and wrangle any dissent. I don't think the Chinese population will start failing these en masse.

The issue is that it's giving the Beijing more power. That's why this is more insidious.

zma1013 · Nov 24, 2018

entremet said:
I don't know. I think the aim is to create a super compliant populace and wrangle any dissent. I don't think the Chinese population will start failing these en masse.

The issue is that it's giving the Beijing more power. That's why this is more insidious.

Yeah I understand the aim of it, I just figure this would be a side-effect of it.

Sectorseven · Nov 24, 2018

Meanwhile Chinese facial recognition system mistakes a face on a bus for a jaywalker

JustinBailey · Nov 24, 2018

They will paint the benefit as greater than the cost, and the masses will bite hook line and sinker.

We are heading for terrifying times.

TheGreatDirector · Nov 24, 2018

Commedieu said:
this is concerning considering all of their loans they're giving out to asia pacific/africa.

Seems like thats fertile gorunds for this to spread outside of China.

Not to sound dismissive, but I don't see this working at all in developing countries. China is only able to do this because of how technologically ingrained it's society is and the reliance on social media.

How would that work in populations where social media isn't involved in one's daily life?

entremet · Nov 24, 2018

Commedieu said:
this is concerning considering all of their loans they're giving out to asia pacific/africa.

Seems like thats fertile gorunds for this to spread outside of China.

China seems more poised for global influence than the US. I mean, Trump is a joke. He's talking about tariffs and coal miners in 2018. No vision at all.

While China is creating massive internet networks, massive cyber espionage, they're much more involved in the third world from a nation building perspective. And all this is done rather under the radar.

And Trump is worried about 20th century considerations like coal mining lol.

TheGreatDirector said:
Not to sound dismissive, but I don't see this working at all in developing countries. China is only able to do this because of how technologically ingrained it's society is and the reliance on social media.

How would that work in populations where social media isn't involved in one's daily life?

The developed world is going to cellphones before landline internet. They're skipping landlines completely. Where are they consuming the internet from? Cellphones.

zma1013 · Nov 24, 2018

Sectorseven said:
Meanwhile Chinese facial recognition system mistakes a face on a bus for a jaywalker

Yeah it's going to be impossible to manage this nightmare accurately. So many mistakes will screw so many people over even if they are adhering to this crazy regimes oppressive rules.

zero_suit · Nov 24, 2018

entremet said:
China seems more poised for global influence than the US. I mean, Trump is a joke. He's talking about tariffs and coal miners in 2018. No vision at all.

While China is creating massive internet networks, massive cyber espionage, they're much more involved in the third world from a nation building perspective. And all this is done rather under the radar.

And Trump is worried about 20th century considerations like coal mining lol.

I mean, Trump is the dumbest person ever to be elected president. Things could not have gone better for China.

Deleted member 44129 · Nov 24, 2018

Trump wants this, you realise that, right?

jelly · Nov 24, 2018

Does that mean they queue better?

entremet · Nov 24, 2018

zero_suit said:
I mean, Trump is the dumbest person ever to be elected president. Things could not have gone better for China.

Trump is a symptom, not the disease. The US's focus is not too much poised to take advantage of the future.

The GOP Congress is a good example of this. They're anti progress and anti science. Their vision is tax cuts! China ain't thinking about tax cuts lol. America has really lost its visionary edge, but it's been like this for a while.

The Obama Administration showed some signed with their green initiatives and so on, but we're still at the mercy of another party.

Epilogue · Nov 24, 2018

Isn't this from the same president that is censoring Pooh from Kingdom hearts 3?

anthro · Nov 24, 2018

Lol damnit I make an effort post and a new thread with a more readable title appears. I'll just try to actually be brief and say that I don't think social credit is that scary on its own, it isn't a single score and it is the attempt at consolidation and formalization of surveillance that already exists in the criminal, financial and political spheres. It's implementation has mostly been reactive to public opinion, with badly received versions scrapped and the well-received ones continued. This has largely made it serve as a more formal credit scoring apparatus in the financial system (based on your debt history), as well as a public punishment/reward system with localities posting people's faces that have good or bad score in certain places (which sounds terribly Orwellian but has been one of the well received elements because people feel like it promotes good civic behavior while punishing criminality).

Some of the biggest complaints I've seen are in regards to debt, like the NPR interview with the businessman who defaulted on millions in debt and suddenly had his travel restricted and face put up around town, as well as lack of clarity for how to get off of a blacklist, which the state keeps trying to assuage by assuring everyone that there will be easy to understand methods to get off of blacklists. I doubt that will ever be fully resolved and people will get caught in the cracks of the system, but that essentially already occurs, which is why I think right now social credit is just a rebranding of the punitive surveillance state already in existence.

Commedieu · Nov 24, 2018

TheGreatDirector said:
Not to sound dismissive, but I don't see this working at all in developing countries. China is only able to do this because of how technologically ingrained it's society is and the reliance on social media.

How would that work in populations where social media isn't involved in one's daily life?

Maybe but a few things,

They are building roads/hosptials/high speed rails/Wireless Networks(which are one part consumer, one part possibly(lol) military) etc for these under developed areas globally. They are bringing in their culture with chinese workers going to these areas. They are also prefacing these loans with "Taiwan isn't a country. so make sure you vote that way when the time comes." Thats them pushing their culture. I think the point is to get all of these countries up to speed, modernized, and into deep debt, then your population can go over and enjoy the new digs.

Sri-Lanka for example, took the bait, couldn't afford the interest, and had to hand over one of their shipping ports/land for 99 years. They've got an expanding middle class looking to reach out to the world. So perhaps they will take some premium land next time. They're developing future infrastructure for their own people globally (Imo) at a speed faster than modern civilization has seen. This system restricts travel based on your score, so its only a matter of time before they want to observe you outside of its borders. The picture I imagine isn't one thats going to stop at their border.

I just can't say with confidence that I see a world, where china ends up a super power, standing up to this scoring system to do business in/with china. Once it goes fully operational.

Look up their Telecommunication effort globally, its uh, something.

Epilogue said:
Isn't this from the same president that is censoring Pooh from Kingdom hearts 3?

They also banned Puns. https://www.latimes.com/world/asia/la-fg-china-bans-puns-20141203-story.html

Nude_Tayne · Nov 24, 2018

entremet said:
Europe has the EU, which has been very pro-privacy. That's a guardrail. The US, ironically the US is protected from this from fringe right wing elements. Those elements have had tons of theories on the having government issued IDs, as least by the federal government. So there's less traction here. We also have a pro-privacy Constitution, however, that has been shown to be easily abused by SCOTUS rulings, which have been the opposite of pro-privacy of late.

Remember, Chinese laws is entrenched with these services, which require them to be linked to an official government ID database. The US doesn't have such a system. SSN are probably the most common, but they are poor IDs.

Those are all good points. I've become accustomed to expecting the unexpected lately, however.

chrisPjelly · Nov 24, 2018

How many meow meow beans does Pooh subtract?

YuYu said:
What a backwards country.

"bUt wHaT aBoOuT..."

ZhugeEX · Nov 24, 2018

Narag said:
https://www.resetera.com/threads/so...ws-pretty-close-to-living-black-mirror.82849/

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Beijing to Judge Every Resident Based on Behavior by End of 2020 (Bloomberg)

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