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Deleted member 24766

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
242
Now you're just putting words into my mouth. I never said that one optional side character in Fire Emblem ruined an entire genre for me, but then again you didn't even bother to reply my rebuttal when I clarified.

Sorry, but I don't tend to remember everyone who responds to me within a day. I had nearly 30 responses yesterday and I only come here on my downtime. If I had missed your rebuttle, I apologize.

As for putting words in your mouth, I have done no such thing. I clearly remember someone mentioning how the Loli Dragon had turned them away from the game which is why I mentioned it. If I had accidentally put two different responses together, then again I apologize for that mistake.
 
Oct 27, 2017
488
There's something of a trend of this when it comes to FF really, isn't there? Squall gets the same shit, despite being an orphan with deep-rooted abandonment issues. Hilariously, however, lots of these same people seem to ignore (or are just outright ignorant to) Cloud's problems - him being an insecure guy pretending to be a badass to impress women - and instead swallow his whole facade as if that were his true self...

Jecht gets similar treatment - he's not an irresponsible, abusive father, he's "a badass".

I blame a lack of empathy and toxic masculinity, myself.
Yeah, it's definitely a running trend. I think the most interesting thing is that Squall is more or less the opposite of a whiny character, the only difference is that unlike most FF games the player has routine access to what he's actually thinking at any given time instead of exclusively what comes out of his mouth. He's not even allowed to think things and then not actually express them.

I think even the devs themselves forgot what Cloud's actual personality was like at some point, and it'll be interesting to see what happens in the remake.

As someone whose father was a bit like Jecht outside of the whole famous Blitzball player deal, it always really disturbed me how people referred to him, heh. That kind of crap is not pleasant to live through and Tidus is a remarkably together and balanced person, considering his father directly and actively targeted him for bullying and abuse, which mine never did.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,362
In Nazi concentration camps women guards were very brutal too. There is a book by Wendy Lower called Hitler's Furies with more research into the subject of Nazi women and how they contributed to the Holocaust
Okay? Not sure what this has to do with anything. I never denied that women could be violent.

Being a bit selfish here. I wanted to ask what you all thought of this design:


It's the alt costume of one of my favorite characters ever, Kasuga from the Sengoku Basara series.

^This, being her default attire. Her design's conceit is that she's supposed to be a flashy kunoichi who uses distraction and misdirection, and she uses a lot of light-based attacks and such. That said, I've seen it as often being offputting to people into the series. Even those who like her do wish her design wasn't so overly sexualizing of her, especially given all the other women in the series really don't have such designs. Now, I feel her default does fit her to an extent but I also feel like her alt fits her just as well if not more and is certainly a lot less openly sexualizing, yet still retains the idea of her being a flashy ninja.

So uh, I guess... What I want to know is what do you all think of her alt? Is it still too sexualized? Do you think her original outfit is 'fine' given her role, or would her alt be a better main appearance for her going on in the series?
I can give more context if wanted. Sorry for my selfishness. I'm just rather curious.
I think both designs look trashy and stupid, and I would never take that character seriously as a kunoichi. As for the "she uses distraction to attack" thing, don't even get me started. It's a really dumb cliché that makes no sense and it's always an excuse anyway.
 

Mesoian

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
26,524
I think both designs look trashy and stupid, and I would never take that character seriously as a kunoichi. As for the "she uses distraction to attack" thing, don't even get me started. It's a really dumb cliché that makes no sense and it's always an excuse anyway.
Building on that, Pretty much all of Sengoku Basara is trashy and stupid by intention. I'd almost go as far to say that it's a deconstruction of the whole, "hot blooded" motif, if it didn't take itself so damn seriously half the time.
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
Now you're just putting words into my mouth. I never said that one optional side character in Fire Emblem ruined an entire genre for me, but then again you didn't even bother to reply my rebuttal when I clarified.

Also, he does realize that Carmilla is the exact opposite of an optional design character, right? She's one of the most important characters in the story and she's given a fanservice heavy outfit for titlation purposes while male fanservice poster boy Xander gets to wear full practical armor and only gets to be fanservice for the beach scene picture.
 

Deleted member 24766

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
242
Yeah, it's definitely a running trend. I think the most interesting thing is that Squall is more or less the opposite of a whiny character, the only difference is that unlike most FF games the player has routine access to what he's actually thinking at any given time instead of exclusively what comes out of his mouth. He's not even allowed to think things and then not actually express them.

I think even the devs themselves forgot what Cloud's actual personality was like at some point, and it'll be interesting to see what happens in the remake.

As someone whose father was a bit like Jecht outside of the whole famous Blitzball player deal, it always really disturbed me how people referred to him, heh. That kind of crap is not pleasant to live through and Tidus is a remarkably together and balanced person, considering his father directly and actively targeted him for bullying and abuse, which mine never did.

Wasn't it clear that Cloud's Personality was rather meek before the incident at Nibelheim? From that point on, he had started to
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Though it has been a decade or so since I last played.
 

Deleted member 32561

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 11, 2017
3,831
I think both designs look trashy and stupid, and I would never take that character seriously as a kunoichi. As for the "she uses distraction to attack" thing, don't even get me started. It's a really dumb cliché that makes no sense and it's always an excuse anyway.
Ah, alright then. I get you. That's fair. Thank you for your time.
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
Yeah, it's definitely a running trend. I think the most interesting thing is that Squall is more or less the opposite of a whiny character, the only difference is that unlike most FF games the player has routine access to what he's actually thinking at any given time instead of exclusively what comes out of his mouth. He's not even allowed to think things and then not actually express them.

I think even the devs themselves forgot what Cloud's actual personality was like at some point, and it'll be interesting to see what happens in the remake.

As someone whose father was a bit like Jecht outside of the whole famous Blitzball player deal, it always really disturbed me how people referred to him, heh. That kind of crap is not pleasant to live through and Tidus is a remarkably together and balanced person, considering his father directly and actively targeted him for bullying and abuse, which mine never did.

I'm sorry about your father and yeah, Jecht is really abusive, which makes things like FF Dissidia try really hard to make him a better guy than he is in his game kind of skivvy.

Also yeah, Cloud is supposed to be a parody of the brooding, lonely, JRPG protagonist, especially since the game starts to outright mock and degrade him in VII for it and its only when he stops that and actually becomes his own person (literally), does things finally start working out for him. Unfortunately, so many people latched on the the parody that he went right back it come Advent Children. Hopefully the message is clearer in the remake.
 

kaytee

Member
Oct 28, 2017
440
USA
Feelings, no. The degree/severity of a particular issue, yes. There have been some hyperbolic statements suggesting games like Nier: Automata or Xenoblade Chronicles 2 are insulting/damaging to all women, or how the introduction of an optional side character that could be ignored in Fire Emblem ruins the entire game and all games in that genre for them. While there are many excellent points people are making, there are also just as many hyperbolic statements that are hard to take seriously.

You are literally dismissing people's feelings in this post by calling them hyperbolic. It doesn't seem to me like you're really listening to their perspective and trying to understand it. You're posting a lot of short, snarky comments in response to people, and it's coming across a little defensive.

Let me address your point about a game being "damaging to all women." When I talk about objectification if women in media, personal offense is actually the smallest and least important part of it. Here's a basic definition of objectification:

Sexual objectification is the viewing of people solely as de-personalised objects of desire instead of as individuals with complex personalities and desires/plans of their own. This is done by speaking/thinking of women especially as only their bodies, either the whole body, or as fetishised body parts.

Sexual attraction is not the same as sexual objectification: objectification only occurs when the individuality of the desired person is not acknowledged. Pornography, prostitution, sexual harassment and the representation of women in mass media and art are all examples of common sexual objectification.

The concept of objectification owes much to the work of Simone de Beauvoir regarding the basic dualism of human consciousness between the Self and the Other: the general mental process where humans classify the world into 'us' and 'them'. Women are universally viewed as the Other across all cultures, a role which is both externally imposed and internalised, and which means that women are generally not truly regarded as fully human. An important point of de Beauvoir's was that this Othering effect is the same whether women are viewed as wholly inferior or if femininity is viewed as mysterious and morally superior: Otherness and full equality cannot coexist.

https://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2007/03/23/faq-what-is-sexual-objectification/

So when people argue that objectification is harmful to women, they don't mean that each and every woman is personally insulted and upset by it. They mean that the overall societal effect of all objectification is negative for women as a whole. It's not just about one game, but about many games and movies and advertisements that we see every day and effect how we think of women.

Edit:

I'm sorry about your father and yeah, Jecht is really abusive, which makes things like FF Dissidia try really hard to make him a better guy than he is in his game kind of skivvy.

This is off-topic, so I'll keep it in an edit. But I'd say that he actually did become a better person by the end of FFX. There's a definite aspect of "too little too late" there with his relationship with Tidus, but the game did portray him as changed. (I actually think this is an achingly sad part of the game. There might have been a chance to rebuild that relationship, but they never got a chance to.) I can understand if it's still fundamentally gross to you, because he was definitely abusive in the past. I find themes of guilt and what can be forgiven to be fascinating, but they're tricky topics.
 
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Pau

Self-Appointed Godmother of Bruce Wayne's Children
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,847
Sorry, but I don't tend to remember everyone who responds to me within a day. I had nearly 30 responses yesterday and I only come here on my downtime. If I had missed your rebuttle, I apologize.

As for putting words in your mouth, I have done no such thing. I clearly remember someone mentioning how the Loli Dragon had turned them away from the game which is why I mentioned it. If I had accidentally put two different responses together, then again I apologize for that mistake.
Well, I did mention how stuff like (but not limited to) sexualized underage girls was gross and pulled me out of a niche series like Fire Emblem that really has nothing else quite like it mechanics wise. So I assume you're talking about me. It's pretty disingenuous of you to talk about how us women are being hyperbolic if you aren't going to even be bothered to address the actual arguments.
 

Cid

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
395
There's something of a trend of this when it comes to FF really, isn't there? Squall gets the same shit, despite being an orphan with deep-rooted abandonment issues. Hilariously, however, lots of these same people seem to ignore (or are just outright ignorant to) Cloud's problems - him being an insecure guy pretending to be a badass to impress women - and instead swallow his whole facade as if that were his true self...

Jecht gets similar treatment - he's not an irresponsible, abusive father, he's "a badass".

I blame a lack of empathy and toxic masculinity, myself.

Squall is not Cloud is not Jecht etc.

Different characters, different backstories, different scripts, different behavior, different games etc.

No reason at all for players to have the same or similar opinions of them.

And I don't even know what toxic masculinity is supposed to mean.
 
Oct 27, 2017
488
Being a bit selfish here. I wanted to ask what you all thought of this design:

...

So uh, I guess... What I want to know is what do you all think of her alt? Is it still too sexualized? Do you think her original outfit is 'fine' given her role, or would her alt be a better main appearance for her going on in the series?
I can give more context if wanted. Sorry for my selfishness. I'm just rather curious.
Honestly I didn't even realize Sengoku Basara had female characters. I thought it was all just cute boys beating the tar out of each other. I learned something this day.

She's not really my bag, but it's a pretty ridiculous and exaggerated series almost to the point of self-parody to begin with, isn't it? The "uses the distraction of boobies as a weapon" thing is pretty tired, though, not that I'd think less of you for being into it.

Wasn't it clear that Cloud's Personality was rather meek before the incident at Nibelheim? From that point on, he had started to --- Though it has been a decade or so since I last played.
Yeah, he was a meek, wimpy loner who faked it until he could make it on some level. By the time he dropped the facade and sorted out his uh...mind...issues he was honestly a pretty normal dude, which he got a lot of shit for late game.

"Let's mosey!"

He definitely was not the brooding, contemplative badass that media since has depicted him as. Then again the localization work in FFVII was preeeeeeeetty bad and I have no idea how he was characterized in the original script.
 

Opa-Pa

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,810
The repeated "not everything needs to be for everyone" is such a lazy argument when discussing japanese games. The main problem with them is that you're bound to find sexual content in almost every one of them to some degree, no matter the kind of game. Something like Senran Kagura, for example, clearly targets a male audience and that's fine, I guess, because it's a game that centers most of its appeal around the sexy girls. But would you say Xenoblade games are specifically targeting men outside of the female designs? Because I can't see anything inherently "not for women" in its game design or strengths.

Not everything needs to pander to everyone but boy, do japanese devs love pandering to men in absolutely everything they do no matter the genre.

As for putting words in your mouth, I have done no such thing. I clearly remember someone mentioning how the Loli Dragon had turned them away from the game which is why I mentioned it. If I had accidentally put two different responses together, then again I apologize for that mistake.
I don't see how that's weird though. A lot of distasteful content in these games can be ignored for sure, but some people can be more affected by specific elements, like sexualized lolis in this case, and may believe that the mere fact that the devs found including them in the game a good idea is terrible enough to not want to play the game.

Lightning falls under the "we made her angry all the time because that's what a strong female character is, right?" writing trap. You have people argue that she's a good character and totally not just eye candy and at the same time she slides down poles in the third game like a stripper. Yeah... I think they were trying to make her a gender swapped Cloud expy but then Square Enix forgot what Cloud's personality was like in the original game and can only remember the "modern" interpretation of him where he's depressed emo for some reason.
It's a real shame because Square were definitely capable of creating actual strong female characters. Yuna and Aerith are among the strongest characters in their respective casts, Yuna especially.
 

Mesoian

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
26,524
Squall is not Cloud is not Jecht etc.

Different characters, different backstories, different scripts, different behavior, different games etc.

No reason at all for players to have the same or similar opinions of them.


But most do. That's sort of what we're talking about. Because they aren't ultra macho or super commanding, they're thought of as weaker or whiny, annoying.

And I don't even know what toxic masculinity is supposed to mean.

In this case, it's the idea that if a character isn't the embodiment of the traditional sense of masculine (Super gung ho, never shows weakness, never shows his feelings) they are a bad character, because they do not adhere to the concept of manliness. The idea of the concept of not being manly making you a bad person. It's an extremely pervasive thing in pretty much all media.
 

Cid

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
395
Well, I did mention how stuff like (but not limited to) sexualized underage girls was gross and pulled me out of a niche series like Fire Emblem that really has nothing else quite like it mechanics wise. So I assume you're talking about me. It's pretty disingenuous of you to talk about how us women are being hyperbolic if you aren't going to even be bothered to address the actual arguments.

Calling people disingenuous is a dishonest tactic I think to put someone in a bad light immediatly and label them as being not honest.
It targets a members character.

I have seen this happen here way too often and wrongly.
It's being used like a fatality to try to put people out of the discussion quickly. Please don't do it anymore.
 

weemadarthur

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,606
Calling people disingenuous is a dishonest tactic I think to put someone in a bad light immediatly and label them as being not honest.
It targets a members character.

I have seen this happen here way too often and wrongly.
It's being used like a fatality to try to put people out of the discussion quickly. Please don't do it anymore.
Pau wasn't even talking to you, unless you two are alts of the same person.
 

sabrina

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,174
newport beach, CA
Calling people disingenuous is a dishonest tactic I think to put someone in a bad light immediatly and label them as being not honest.
It targets a members character.

I have seen this happen here way too often and wrongly.
It's being used like a fatality to try to put people out of the discussion quickly. Please don't do it anymore.
Calling someone's tactics dishonest is pretty disingenuous I think to put someone in a bad light immediately and label them as not honest. It targets a member's character.
 
Oct 27, 2017
488
Cid
Toxic masculinity is the academic term for the constant pressure that society puts on men to act like men. Don't cry, don't complain about anything, don't do something feminine like be a teacher, or nurse, or work in childcare. Watch and play sports. Don't be a nerd who likes to stay inside and read. Drink vodka, not mixed drinks.

This kind of stuff would obviously differ from country to country in its nuance, but it's pretty pervasive in most of western society.

It's generally agreed that it puts a lot of unnecessary and damaging pressure on boys and men to act in a very narrow, specific way and can be partially blamed for, well, a lot of stuff wrong in society right now.
This is off-topic, so I'll keep it in an edit. But I'd say that he actually did become a better person by the end of FFX. There's a definite aspect of "too little too late" there with his relationship with Tidus, but the game did portray him as changed. (I actually think this is an achingly sad part of the game. There might have been a chance to rebuild that relationship, but they never got a chance to.) I can understand if it's still fundamentally gross to you, because he was definitely abusive in the past. I find themes of guilt and what can be forgiven to be fascinating, but they're tricky topics.
Yeah, for the record I really liked Jecht's character arc. It might be a bit too forgiving but I'd generally like to think that most people who wind up like my father (or Jecht) are, in part, victims themselves. It doesn't excuse anything, but you don't generally become an abusive alcoholic over absolutely nothing. Learning and wanting to do better is always an admirable thing, even if you can't always be forgiven for what you've already done.
 
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StoveOven

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
1,234
Calling people disingenuous is a dishonest tactic I think to put someone in a bad light immediatly and label them as being not honest.
It targets a members character.

I have seen this happen here way too often and wrongly.
It's being used like a fatality to try to put people out of the discussion quickly. Please don't do it anymore.
You are literally doing the same thing by calling her post dishonest.
 

Pau

Self-Appointed Godmother of Bruce Wayne's Children
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,847
Calling people disingenuous is a dishonest tactic I think to put someone in a bad light immediatly and label them as being not honest.
It targets a members character.

I have seen this happen here way too often and wrongly.
It's being used like a fatality to try to put people out of the discussion quickly. Please don't do it anymore.
So it's not okay for me to call someone disingenuous but it's okay for you to call me dishonest? I'm confused where the line is here.

That poster is totally free to prove me wrong about me calling them disingenuous in that context.
 

Deleted member 32561

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 11, 2017
3,831
As someone whose father was a bit like Jecht outside of the whole famous Blitzball player deal, it always really disturbed me how people referred to him, heh. That kind of crap is not pleasant to live through and Tidus is a remarkably together and balanced person, considering his father directly and actively targeted him for bullying and abuse, which mine never did.
I'm sorry to hear what you had to put up with! As someone with similar experiences with my dad it's never really sat well with me how... warmly Jecht is recieved as a person. He's an interesting villain but he's not a good person, at all.
Also yeah, Cloud is supposed to be a parody of the brooding, lonely, JRPG protagonist, especially since the game starts to outright mock and degrade him in VII for it and its only when he stops that and actually becomes his own person (literally), does things finally start working out for him. Unfortunately, so many people latched on the the parody that he went right back it come Advent Children. Hopefully the message is clearer in the remake.
That does bring up a question- if Cloud is meant to be a parody of sorts, is there any character in particular he's meant to be satirizing? Because I don't remember a whole lot of JRPG protags being super broody until he came along, but then again, I didn't much get into them until after VII.
Honestly I didn't even realize Sengoku Basara had female characters. I thought it was all just cute boys beating the tar out of each other. I learned something this day.

She's not really my bag, but it's a pretty ridiculous and exaggerated series almost to the point of self-parody to begin with, isn't it? The "uses the distraction of boobies as a weapon" thing is pretty tired, though, not that I'd think less of you for being into it.
Yeah, there are actually a number of girls in it! I think they're all really cool, personally, and are my main draw to the series (though admittedly the cute boys beating each other up was what initially intrigued me). One of the characters (Kasuga's liege and beloved, incidentally) doesn't even have a given canon gender in the original Japanese scripts, which while a lot more common in Japanese media than Western, is still I think really great since they can be interpreted as nonbinary.

And yeah I get you, and can't blame you for feeling that way. I do feel like her design is in part because of how out there the series is in general. Not that it excuses it at all, but one of the guys does run around in just a loincloth after all, lol.
 

Rowlf

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
645
Calling people disingenuous is a dishonest tactic I think to put someone in a bad light immediatly and label them as being not honest.
It targets a members character.

I have seen this happen here way too often and wrongly.
It's being used like a fatality to try to put people out of the discussion quickly. Please don't do it anymore.
If you have an issue with a post, use the report function.
 

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,290
This is off-topic, so I'll keep it in an edit. But I'd say that he actually did become a better person by the end of FFX. There's a definite aspect of "too little too late" there with his relationship with Tidus, but the game did portray him as changed. (I actually think this is an achingly sad part of the game. There might have been a chance to rebuild that relationship, but they never got a chance to.) I can understand if it's still fundamentally gross to you, because he was definitely abusive in the past. I find themes of guilt and what can be forgiven to be fascinating, but they're tricky topics.
I've always tended to find FFX's characters to be off-putting because of their personalities. It almost feels like a Star Wars prequel script to me. There's something there, but it never really came across as anything other than trying too hard for a feeling the writer couldn't construct in a manner that properly expressed it. They all felt somewhat creepy to me, personally. Like the uncanny valley of characterization.
 

Cid

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
395
So it's not okay for me to call someone disingenuous but it's okay for you to call me dishonest? I'm confused where the line is here.

That poster is totally free to prove me wrong about me calling them disingenuous in that context.

I don't think you are dishonest, I think it's not a nice move or tactic, maybe I should have said not fair.
All I mean is, that I think it's an accusation that should not be made lightly.
 

Deleted member 24766

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
242
Well, I did mention how stuff like (but not limited to) sexualized underage girls was gross and pulled me out of a niche series like Fire Emblem that really has nothing else quite like it mechanics wise. So I assume you're talking about me. It's pretty disingenuous of you to talk about how us women are being hyperbolic if you aren't going to even be bothered to address the actual arguments.

A few things to note here, I have spoken about these issues both in this thread and other similar threads on this forum. I am not talking about women, but people in general. There are men who have made the comments I have referred to in this very thread (and others like it). Suggesting I am being disingenuous is incorrect and as Cid said : seems like a lazy way to shut out a person's argument and label them in a bad light.

You are literally dismissing people's feelings in this post by calling them hyperbolic. It doesn't seem to me like you're really listening to their perspective and trying to understand it. You're posting a lot of short, snarky comments in response to people, and it's coming across a little defensive.

Let me address your point about a game being "damaging to all women." When I talk about objectification if women in media, personal offense is actually the smallest and least important part of it. Here's a basic definition of objectification:

So when people argue that objectification is harmful to women, they don't mean that each and every woman is personally insulted and upset by it. They mean that the overall societal effect of all objectification is negative for women as a whole. It's not just about one game, but about many games and movies and advertisements that we see every day and effect how we think of women.

I am not sure if you have ready my previous posts - but I have stated that English is not my first language. When I kept hearing that "objectification is harmful to women", I was indeed thinking that they meant that each and every woman is personally insulted and upset by it. I did not realize that they were referring to the overall societal effect and I do greatly apologize for this mistake. I think this would be considered a literal interpretation? I will take some time to think about this as this does change a lot of what I read in a new light.

Only two of my comments were meant with any snark and those were in regards to StoneOven and Psychowave. I apologize if other posts had seemed snarky as they were not meant to.

Pau wasn't even talking to you, unless you two are alts of the same person.

We are not the same person, I am sorry to inform you.
 

Cid

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
395
So we are at page 53
And I have 100 posts per page I think
That's at least 5200 posts

So do we already have some sort of consensus here? Many same members as the first pages, so "we" should be some where further then the first pages now right?
 
Oct 27, 2017
488
I can't attribute ideas to you personally but there is clearly a hostility towards sex for sex's sake and a hostility towards exaggeration and "trashiness".
Can't speak for everybody but I've been one of the more active posters in the thread for quite a while and I love trashy stuff when I actively seek it out and know exactly what I'm getting into. I'm on the record in this thread several times over noting that I love me some boobs, too. They're pretty great.

Don't much want trashy pandering it in everything I consume, or for it to pop out of nowhere and punch me in the face and I hate that it's as pervasive as it is in some genres of games to the point where it's driving segments of long-term fanbases away from them. I'd rather share the things I like with more people if being trashy isn't an absolute core part of what they are than get a quick dose of pandering I could just as easily get somewhere more appropriate.

Hell, I'd love to see more sex in media, for that matter. But handled properly with the intent of furthering a character or relationship arc and with actual emotional meaning behind it, not just for the sake of tossing it in there.

So we are at page 53
And I have 100 posts per page I think
That's at least 5200 posts

So do we already have some sort of consensus here? Many same members as the first pages, so "we" should be some where further then the first pages now right?
We've had a lot of really interesting discussions and learned a lot about each other's preferences. Taught some people some terms, too.

If you expect that we're closer to coming up with a solution, though, you may be misunderstanding the purpose of the thread. We're not here to be the engineers that fix society's great, enduring problems. We're here to educate and talk with people who want to learn about and discuss topics that fall into the scope of the thread--namely, why women complain about sexualization in games.

Edit: lol I actually did it myself. It's rubbing off. CRITICIZE.
 
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Mesoian

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
26,524
You are literally doing the same thing by calling her post dishonest.

giphy.gif



edit: Oh god why were there 3?
 
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Dary

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,416
The English Wilderness
That does bring up a question- if Cloud is meant to be a parody of sorts, is there any character in particular he's meant to be satirizing?

He's a meek teenager who has trouble talking to girls and escapes into his own power fantasy: he's satirising the player.

To bring this back to the topic of female characters, though, note how Tifa and Aeris defy their stereotypes: Tifa, the brawler, is shy and lacks confidence, whilst Aeris, the healer, is extroverted and flirty. And, like Cloud, they both try to hide their true selves behind a false persona.

Also like Cloud, it often feels as if Square have forgotten this and instead portrays them as the stereotypes they were meant to defy: Aeris is like their own bloody Virgin Mary now...
 

Pau

Self-Appointed Godmother of Bruce Wayne's Children
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,847
A few things to note here, I have spoken about these issues both in this thread and other similar threads on this forum. I am not talking about women, but people in general. There are men who have made the comments I have referred to in this very thread (and others like it). Suggesting I am being disingenuous is incorrect and as Cid said : seems like a lazy way to shut out a person's argument and label them in a bad light.
I"m not trying to shut out your argument. A better way to phrase it would definitely be to say you appear disingenuous when you accuse others of being hyperbolic while simultaneously exaggerating and mischaracterizing other people's arguments.
 

Opa-Pa

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,810
I think the point of the thread was trying to explain men why these are important issues for women... I think a couple have been convinced.

We've discussed many angles of the subject though and personally I've found it very insightful and enriching. Plus more women have shared their experiences as well which is very, very important.
 

Ferrs

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
18,829
Are we getting somewhere?
It's a real question
Often discussions leasd to a general consensus right on the topic?

We did. Women shared their perspective, there were talks and exchange of ideas, and some people appeared to thank this thread because it has been very helpful for their views (both men and women).

So yep, we got somewhere, and we still go.
 

Mesoian

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
26,524
Are we getting somewhere?
It's a real question
Often discussions lead to a general consensus right on a topic?

I think the consensus is, even if it's in good faith, the almost need to present women as objects to be obtained or oggled is so pervasive in the media that it's done unconsciously and we need to keep pointing it out when it happens.

I think that's why the conversation has gone on for so long, people keep bringing examples to the table and we keep discussing them in turn. The thread has also evolved to be about a lot of different topics.
 
Oct 27, 2017
488
He's a meek teenager who has trouble talking to girls and escapes into his own power fantasy: he's satirising the player.

To bring this back to the topic of female characters, though, note how Tifa and Aeris defy their stereotypes: Tifa, the brawler, is shy and lacks confidence, whilst Aeris, the healer, is extroverted and flirty. And, like Cloud, they both try to hide their true selves behind a false persona.

Also like Cloud, it often feels as if Square have forgotten this and instead portrays them as the stereotypes they were meant to defy: Aeris is like their own bloody Virgin Mary now...
My favorite part was the part where Cloud remembered his mom, knowing he was hung up on the neighbor girl, telling him that he should go out and get him an older woman who'd take him by the hand herself because he was such a passive, meek introvert.

I don't think I'm misremembering that.

It's a hell of a thing to think about how heavily corrupted the characters have become in the years since the original script. I'd actually almost completely forgotten that Aerith was pretty outgoing and flirty until you mentioned it.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,362
I can't attribute ideas to you personally but there is clearly a hostility towards sex for sex's sake and a hostility towards exaggeration and "trashiness".
Not sure where you're seeing this. A lot of women have said they have no problem with sex scenes in general.

Objectified women in media, especially gaming, are almost never even having sex at all. They are not depicted as characters expressing their sexuality. They are simply sexualized and objectified to be ogled by players.
 

Deleted member 32561

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 11, 2017
3,831
I'm personally in the thread to learn about perspectives on female character design from women, and while there's some consensus there's enough differing opinions too. I want to learn, really.

He's a meek teenager who has trouble talking to girls and escapes into his own power fantasy: he's satirising the player.

To bring this back to the topic of female characters, though, note how Tifa and Aeris defy their stereotypes: Tifa, the brawler, is shy and lacks confidence, whilst Aeris, the healer, is extroverted and flirty. And, like Cloud, they both try to hide their true selves behind a false persona.

Also like Cloud, it often feels as if Square have forgotten this and instead portrays them as the stereotypes they were meant to defy: Aeris is like their own bloody Virgin Mary now...
Ahhhh, didn't think of it that way, thanks.
And yeah, Aeris has really have gotten flanderized by SE themselves lately. Tifa to an extent too. I really hope the remake does Tifa and Aeris good at least.
 
Oct 27, 2017
488
My general impression is that it's probably not just me and if we had our absolute ideal the medium would probably come out of it with MORE actual sex, just less bikini armor and camera creeping that happens so pervasively without actual sex.
 

Twig

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,486
To briefly comment on people being upset about lower-than-expected masculinity in Final Fantasy characters...

When I was a younger idiot, I remember getting into semi-heated arguments about why FFXII was going to suck so hard because the main character was far too feminine.

So, that happened.

The irony being, of course, that these days I prefer a character that isn't just 100% manly man 100% of the time. Because it's more in line with who I actually am.

(Though, sometimes it just works for me, anyway. See: Kiryu in Yakuza.)

...I never did play FFXII.
 

Cid

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
395
I don't think there was an attempt to reach a concensus as much as trying to explain men why these are important issues for women... I think a couple have been convinced.

We've discussed many angles of the subject though and personally I've found it very insightful and enriching.

I didn't know some of you have such deep personal feelings about some character portrayals and some female stereotypes. Some of you really are serious with this stuff.

Certainly in the west there is already a clear shift away from what some members here dislike in games concering female characters. So this will be less of an issue with every passing year I guess.

Japan is something else. But hey, you can't have it all right?

But with all this said. I do think that their doesn't exist an entitlement that anyone can claim over the creations of game developers and artists in general. With time probably things will change and we will never get another Quiet ;-(

I also think that having female characters in sexy outfits is not wrong BY DEFINITION in games, whether out of context or not. But that's something I differ on fundamentaly with some members here I guess.
 

Pau

Self-Appointed Godmother of Bruce Wayne's Children
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,847
Not sure where you're seeing this. A lot of women have said they have no problem with sex scenes in general.

Objectified women in media, especially gaming, are almost never even having sex at all. They are not depicted as characters expressing their sexuality. They are simply sexualized and objectified to be ogled by players.
Have we talked about sex scenes we thought were well done yet?

I'm super biased, but I thought the sex scene in the first Telltale Batman season was pretty well done! We didn't actually see anything, but it was pretty clear what was going to happen, and consent was at the forefront of the scene. :3

Actually, beyond that, I can't remember the last time I played a game where there was an actual sex scene or the implication of one. To be fair, I skip a lot of cutscenes. (I know, I'm horrible.)
 

Dary

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,416
The English Wilderness
I can't attribute ideas to you personally but there is clearly a hostility towards sex for sex's sake and a hostility towards exaggeration and "trashiness".

Video games handle sex with the maturity of a twelve-year-old boy giggling at a dirty magazine behind the school bike sheds.

If they could actually approach these things like adults, I imagine we'd have much less of a problem...
 

SolidSnakex

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,400
This is pretty broad generalization I'm about to make, but yes, Japanese media overall is much more presentational and Western media is much more representational. It wouldn't surprise me at all to learn that most Japanese character designers primarily care about the symbolic meanings of a character's clothing and physical appearance, and that making them suitable for what those characters actually do in their stories is a much more distant concern.

This is more or less what Ninja Theory talked about when discussing their take on Dante vs. Capcom Japan's

"Japanese style ethos does tend to involve making characters look cool for the sake of looking cool, adding odd accessories, crazy hairstyles and color, cowboy boots and so on simply because they look cool," he said.

"We in the West tend to be more functional adding things that have meaning and being able to explain that meaning. Why does Dante have white hair? I want to make a little story around that and explain it. And so on for the rest of his design choices."

http://news.softpedia.com/news/Dant...Is-Influenced-by-Western-Culture-249487.shtml

I think it gets back to what I brought up earlier in the thread about realism vs. fantasy. The west is very much locked into realism right now. Most AAA games nowadays from the west are realistic in nature. So that ultimately guides what they can do with their character designs. While Japanese studios continue to lean heavily into pure fantasy. You see it with what NT mentioned there. But I think this also adds to it as it's another thing they mentioned

If Dante, dressed as he was, walked into any bar outside of Tokyo, he'd get laughed out.

Meanwhile, here's Kamiya commenting on his direction to the character designer when it came to Dante

"I gave "Stylishly run with long coat", "British guy" and "Doesn't smoke cigarette". Long coat is I just wanted to put something showy on character. British guy is I wanted for Dante to be not only a fighting man, witty and traditional fighting man. About cigarette, this is simple, I just thought man without cigarette is cool.

After all, designer gave me his idea and we finally came up with the final Dante. His cloth color is red because the red color is showy and cool from all the other colors.

One approach theorizing about what a character may be viewed like if he were to walk into a real club somewhere in the world while the other is just general points that he'd like the designer to focus on. The character was just meant to fit with what Kamiya perceived to be cool above all else. Most western designers seem to take NT's approach. Someone can't be cool just to be cool, it has to "grounded" to some extent. While i've seen a lot of Japanese designers describe what they want to character designers, and it generally just falls down to "Does this look good?" above all else. I mean, Kojima's orders to Shinkawa about Raiden was for him to be an "exceptionally beautiful young man". Toriyama guildelines for Nomura when it came to Lightning was for him to create a female version of Cloud.
 

Twig

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,486
I actually found the sex scenes in Wolfenstein (which I just played over the past week) to be fairly palatable. The woman in that relationship, Anya, was the one making it happen, and it didn't feel like "I'm all over you because you're so hot". Felt more like she just wanted some company and so did BJ.

The second one was kinda funny, too, in that Another Character Is Irritated By The Loud Noises sort of way.

But maybe I'm being more generous than it deserves, I dunno.
 

Cid

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
395
To briefly comment on people being upset about lower-than-expected masculinity in Final Fantasy characters...

When I was a younger idiot, I remember getting into semi-heated arguments about why FFXII was going to suck so hard because the main character was far too feminine.

So, that happened.

The irony being, of course, that these days I prefer a character that isn't just 100% manly man 100% of the time. Because it's more in line with who I actually am.

(Though, sometimes it just works for me, anyway. See: Kiryu in Yakuza.)

...I never did play FFXII.


Vaan being an extremely weak FF main character has nothing to do with feminine or manly for me. It's pure bad design all around. Not one second did I think he is feminine or whatever. He is just a child. And I think Square has commented on it that he wasn't planned to be in the game until much later in development.
 
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