David Jaffe- AAA games are dying (creatively speaking)

potatohead · Nov 23, 2018

Many aaa games are doing pretty well mechanically

However I could definitely imagine experimenting in a sense is weaker than in 5th and 6th generations

I would also argue however that bringing richer narrative and artistic design through environment and animation in a game like uncharted does have impact in a game and takes a considerable amount of effort to perform and shouldn't be discounted

Though I also agree in the sense that the game structure is similar through all uncharted games

pswii60 · Nov 23, 2018

Nitori said:
David Jaffe hasn't been in AAA development since GOW2, that's the point.

Jim Sterling hasn't been in AAA development since... forever. And yet his videos still get posted and discussed on here. So I'm not sure what the issue is.

At least Jaffe has experience as both a full time developer and consumer, so he can see it from both sides.

poofynamanama2 said:
That's bold coming from someone whose never made a good game.

I bet you felt really clever posting that.

Deleted member 8674 · Nov 23, 2018

He's not totally wrong and it make sense. AAA are a big investment so they follow trends and play it safe. That's why games like Minecraft, Limbo , Fez, Journey, Spelunky, Cuphead, Rocket League are as popular because it's something different.

Nitori said:
David Jaffe hasn't been in AAA development since GOW2, that's the point.

So as IGN review team and their reviews are read/watched by millions.

Bold One · Nov 23, 2018

Borowski said:

Mr Jaffe remains a top lad.

Paul · Nov 23, 2018

He ain't wrong, but there are still games that try to do new things. More so among AA and indie rather than AAA though. Games like Frostpunk, Rimworld, Factorio, Kingdom Come, Vampyr, What Remains of Edith Finch, Return of the Obra Dinn, Orwell..

ASilentProtagonist · Nov 23, 2018

Creativity has taken a nose dive since last gen. It's why I love Japanese games so much, they take chances, and focus on a uniquecore mechanic. Probably why the souls games are such a breath of fresh air. Big props to Nintendo with breaking the conventions of open world games with BOTW.

xxracerxx · Nov 23, 2018

ASilentProtagonist said:
Creativity has taken a nose dive since last gen. It's why I love Japanese games so much, they take chances, and focus on a uniquecore mechanic. Probably why the souls games are such a breath of fresh air. Big props to Nintendo with breaking the conventions of open world games with BOTW.

Are you saying last gen was more inventive or are you saying it started stagnating after the PS2 era?

ASilentProtagonist · Nov 23, 2018

xxracerxx said:
Are you saying last gen was more inventive or are you saying it started stagnating after the PS2 era?

Last gen lacked innovation big time. PS2 era was the prime time for creativity. It also helped that games costed a lost less, so devs felt more comfortable taking chances.

Abudiix · Nov 23, 2018

I respect his opinion but I don't agree with it and many people don't. He used a Bad example also so it doesn't help his argument

AudioEppa · Nov 23, 2018

jem said:
It's a genre/style that I find very dull so there's far too many for my tastes.

Fair point, I feel the same way about none cinematic third person games.

Nitori · Nov 23, 2018

pswii60 said:
Jim Sterling hasn't been in AAA development since... forever. And yet his videos still get posted and discussed on here. So I'm not sure what the issue is.

At least Jaffe has experience as both a full time developer and consumer, so he can see it from both sides.

I bet you felt really clever posting that.

With that logic, people can't talk about anything anything unless they have experience in it.

hank_tree · Nov 23, 2018

Man whose entire career has been making poor knock offs of better games suggests that creativity in the games industry is over. News at 11.

squidyj · Nov 23, 2018

poofynamanama2 said:
That's bold coming from someone whose never made a good game.

Have you made any games? If not I guess your thoughts and ideas must be just as invalid, following that criteria.

pswii60 · Nov 23, 2018

Nitori said:
With that logic, people can't talk about anything anything unless they have experience in it.

What? You misread my post then because I'm saying the exact opposite of that. I'm saying anyone can have an opinion, and the fact that Jaffe hasn't been in AAA development for so long is irrelevant.

DarlingDixie · Nov 23, 2018

Jaffe has always been try hard and Twisted Metal was never cool.

thomasmahler · Nov 23, 2018

I think he's living in his own bubble a bit. Movie critics would point this stuff out? No, they wouldn't. Look at Disneys upcoming movies:

https://screenrant.com/disney-upcoming-movies-list-release-dates/

Did the audience care? No, the Beauty and the Beast Remake, which is 1:1 the same film people had already seen a gazillion times when they were younger made a billion dollars at the box office. And please tell me Jaffe didn't watch it, cause I don't believe him. He's a huge Disney geek, of course he was 'part of the problem', as people like to say.

TV? Same thing, a cool concept appears once in a decade and then a show goes on for 8+ years with the same core formula if it keeps being successful.

At the end of the day, I think the lesson here is that people sometimes like to kick back and consume entertainment where they know what they're getting.

And the thrill of making a sequel is actually to perfect the formula. I could take a video of Super Mario Bros. 1 and compare it to Super Mario Bros. 3 while making the same statement. "Look, in both games Mario grabs a mushroom and becomes Super Mario! It's the same fucking game!" -> And no, it's not. It's a different take on the formula with lots of new features where developers tried to polish the formula to sheer perfection. Apply his mindset to game development and we wouldn't have gotten some of the best games ever made.

Don't shit on sequels. Sequels are okay. It's not like sequels are all we have, there's also completely inventive new indie games out there. People will always create new stuff as long as they live. I'm working on a sequel to a popular game right now where we're trying to perfect the formula and I feel great about it. Especially because we got hundreds of mails from fans begging for a sequel. And meanwhile, by the way, I'm also working on another project that's completely revolutionary and new and will hopefully push other genres forward. Why can't we have both? As long as people get good entertainment, everything's fair game. If you don't like what's out there, vote with your wallet, problem solved.

Deleted member 43446 · Nov 23, 2018

forgiventhrice said:
Jaffe is gradually losing touch. Sometime ago, on twitter, He joking said he is ready make a 2D God of war game if Sony allows him.

Edit: more info

I'd love that as a side project tbh, GOW 3 and Ascension had glimpses of that and I liked it very much.

qrac · Nov 23, 2018

Radishhead said:
Breath of the Wild proves that is untrue.

Botw isn't you avarage 3rd party AAA title #8.

The Vathlonian · Nov 23, 2018

People get so defensive of their little franchises, I swear.

nded · Nov 23, 2018

I kind of get being worn out, but when I'm playing games in the same franchise I actually am looking for similar experiences.

hey it's that dog · Nov 23, 2018

-COOLIO- said:
i feel like this treads back into the age old debate of whether or not we should suffix all of our posts with "in my opinion".

It doesn't. Dying has an objective meaning. "Dying to me" is a synonym for "I've lost interest." Nobody even uses that phrasing because it's clunky and for sure nobody says "x is dying" unless they mean there's an objective and measurable decline in x.

It's not at all the same as saying "x is bad (IMO)".

Asbsand · Nov 23, 2018

I would agree. Not many will see it that way but I agree. Even stuff like God of War and other great "creative" stuff has a lot of things that irritates me from a perspective of "they're doing X thing because of game-trends and risk-management not creativity."

It's so big-business now to be part of AAA production that even creative concepts end up being encapsulated by game trends that ruin what could've been great games IMO.

Super Bunnyhop also made a topic about this way back and granted, game-trends have always been an issue thinking as far back as Jak II Renegade trying to be like GTA instead of its legacy as a platformer that was wannabe Mario 64 -- but it's still hard not to be worn out after a while and "getting it" about how rigidly the industry works.

PSOreo · Nov 23, 2018

Go away Jaffe Cake

Sensei · Nov 23, 2018

Rygar 8Bit said:
Look what happens when you try and stray off from the cookie cutter build even a little though. People are laying into RDR 2 even though that game just slightly deviates from the norm. Makes developers afraid to get out of the comfort zone.

This is a reductionist perspective on why people are upset with RDR2. And even still you're ignoring the fact that, despite the controls being imperfect in a lot of ways, people are mostly enjoying the rest of the package, me included.

Deleted member 17643 · Nov 23, 2018

I thought this was going to be about how many AAA games share the same RPG mechanics.

Sensei · Nov 23, 2018

Dr_Boris_Goltz said:
I thought this was going to be about how many AAA games share the same RPG mechanics.

I'm sure that if he were asked, he'd probably say that "RPG mechanics" are another form of homogenization that's done more harm than good.

jviggy43 · Nov 23, 2018

Lmao what? This gen has seen incredible output of triple a games.

-COOLIO- · Nov 23, 2018

hey it's that dog said:
It doesn't. Dying has an objective meaning. "Dying to me" is a synonym for "I've lost interest." Nobody even uses that phrasing because it's clunky and for sure nobody says "x is dying" unless they mean there's an objective and measurable decline in x.

It's not at all the same as saying "x is bad (IMO)".

true, fair enough.

Omnistalgic · Nov 23, 2018

But...

God of War and BotW???

I mean, yeah, but there's exceptions..they get applauded and others emulate the standouts. This is the case in like every entertainment genre, ever?

I think so

Deleted member 5621 · Nov 23, 2018

thomasmahler said:
I think he's living in his own bubble a bit. Movie critics would point this stuff out? No, they wouldn't. Look at Disneys upcoming movies:

https://screenrant.com/disney-upcoming-movies-list-release-dates/

Did the audience care? No, the Beauty and the Beast Remake, which is 1:1 the same film people had already seen a gazillion times when they were younger made a billion dollars at the box office. And please tell me Jaffe didn't watch it, cause I don't believe him. He's a huge Disney geek, of course he was 'part of the problem', as people like to say.

But Jaffe is not a game critic either.

And anecdotal, sure, but yesterday I was talking with people who work with movies and there were plenty of complaints about Disney's 2019 line up. Not to mention one of the most common complaints about Beauty and the Beast (at least by people who aren't big into it) are the weird and unnecessary plot changes.

That doesn't mean it wasn't a box office success, but your comparison also doesn't take away from his view of the AAA games being safe/predictable/too similar/whatever you prefer to interpret it to.

Ian Henry · Nov 23, 2018

thomasmahler said:
I think he's living in his own bubble a bit. Movie critics would point this stuff out? No, they wouldn't. Look at Disneys upcoming movies:

https://screenrant.com/disney-upcoming-movies-list-release-dates/

Did the audience care? No, the Beauty and the Beast Remake, which is 1:1 the same film people had already seen a gazillion times when they were younger made a billion dollars at the box office. And please tell me Jaffe didn't watch it, cause I don't believe him. He's a huge Disney geek, of course he was 'part of the problem', as people like to say.

TV? Same thing, a cool concept appears once in a decade and then a show goes on for 8+ years with the same core formula if it keeps being successful.

At the end of the day, I think the lesson here is that people sometimes like to kick back and consume entertainment where they know what they're getting.

And the thrill of making a sequel is actually to perfect the formula. I could take a video of Super Mario Bros. 1 and compare it to Super Mario Bros. 3 while making the same statement. "Look, in both games Mario grabs a mushroom and becomes Super Mario! It's the same fucking game!" -> And no, it's not. It's a different take on the formula with lots of new features where developers tried to polish the formula to sheer perfection. Apply his mindset to game development and we wouldn't have gotten some of the best games ever made.

Don't shit on sequels. Sequels are okay. It's not like sequels are all we have, there's also completely inventive new indie games out there. People will always create new stuff as long as they live. I'm working on a sequel to a popular game right now where we're trying to perfect the formula and I feel great about it. Especially because we got hundreds of mails from fans begging for a sequel. And meanwhile, by the way, I'm also working on another project that's completely revolutionary and new and will hopefully push other genres forward. Why can't we have both? As long as people get good entertainment, everything's fair game. If you don't like what's out there, vote with your wallet, problem solved.

Wait.......what's the studio that you're in? Sounds pretty interesting and I wish for success on the projects.

Aside from that, I agree with Jaffee on the lack of creativity seen in the 8th Generation. Not alot of inventive titles and definitely not in a golden age. Not saying sequels should completely wipe out the mechanics but at least redefine itself.

Asbsand · Nov 23, 2018

"Yeah new games are so easy, what happened? Games suck now." - John Romero: Lead of the original Doom.

Sensei said:
I'm sure that if he were asked, he'd probably say that "RPG mechanics" are another form of homogenization that's done more harm than good.

To me the issue that I agree with him is bad is that a lot of AAA games now are, as per the Dragon Age creative director's words "Competing for the player's time", so every big product is essentially trying to cram in as many accessible and trendy features as possible, which is this new shooter-openworld-RPG format where they mix the genres to cater to fans of all types of games and newcomers with how streamlined it is and then the games have lots of content in the form of "do X out of X" template-cut objectives and then they typically have some multiplayer mode too. The point is to provide gamers with that one game they never let go of, then release DLC for it to keep them coming back and have a Microtransactions storefront somewhere in the game so that the longer you keep the player in the game the more opportunities there are that the lustful UX of the MTX storefront finally pulls in even the more reluctant players to skip the grind and spend some more money.

Everything about AAA games, even a lot of those with great creative leads, seem cynical and calculated and probably at worst: Creatively homogenized. I struggle to care about most games that come out these days no matter how original their story or game-world appears in their slick reveal footage. I'm always prepared that it'll be a game that tries to be everything at the same time because of excessive focus testing, market-read and everything a AAA behemoth publisher imposes on a game's production to give it attractions. As a guy who's played a lot of music, read lots of books and all that stuff, while I get games are an interactive media combining the bling and hotness from movies and music and literary stuff, I just think its current state is not the kind of creative avenue me, or a writer, or people with innovative ideas about "play" are feel like getting into. But we end up as Indie-developers... and that avenue has room for creative freedom to a larger extent... It's just a shame it can't happen where the production quality rises and the illusion that games provide has the biggest opportunity to make the player feel.

And frankly, programmers are the biggest artists of the industry imho but most programmers can't do the things that makes games outwardly shine and the way publishers treat the artistic aspects of games is all about focus test and market-read. Not enough artistry. It's a business but it could be less aggressive about it.

Lukas Taves · Nov 23, 2018

Looking at the response that some games that tried to think outside the box received I'm not sure it's a problem.

Gamers want AAA games to focus on graphics and cinematography first and foremost and they are abundantly clear when a game fails to deliver on those to focus on something else and the industry is simply giving the public what they want.

GymWolf86 · Nov 23, 2018

-COOLIO- said:
i'm halfway through and he's not talking about sales y'all, check out the video.

i mean, do you really feel like AAA games have been innovative? personally, i think mainstream games are even less innovative than mainstream movies and music

i don't need innovative idea if i can shoot dinobot with a bow and be a perfect copy of spiderman with high quality gameplay-story-graphics. (some recent examples)

innovation is overrated.

Toriko · Nov 23, 2018

Ichi said:
For me, I too am in the same spot as Jaffe now. I stopped playing God of war, Spidey, Horizon, Witcher 3, etc. all because at the end of the day, they are all largely cut from the same ilk, if you boil them down to their very essence. The game i have enjoyed most so far this gen is Dead Cells and that isn't AAA.

Before, I would have rolled my eyes at Jaffe and enumerate all the minute differences between each title but in recent years, man it is so hard to play an AAA game and not think, "wow everything looks sparkly and hi-def but the feeling of discovering a new game like I did some years ago just hardly comes by".

that is why I try to broaden my horizons now and play other stuff like indies just to break up that gameplay stagnation i am finding in AAA.

it's actually a shame that we here in resetera, pretty much the de-facto enthusiast gaming forum on all of the internet, don't talk more about games that are more interesting, that are trying new things, that expresses stories beyond cutscenes and walls of texts lore.

The gameplay in most indie games including dead cells I have seen hundreds of times over too. How many more 2d platformer rougelikes are you going to take in the indie space before you leave indies too? It's easy to be reductive.

Keldroc · Nov 23, 2018

qrac said:
Well he ain't wrong. AAA games have been the same since last generation. We get the same games but with new graphics/sounds. The games are still the same tough. Creativity has taken a dive long time ago.

You can find this exact complaint in the letters pages of magazines in 1991. It's always been said and it's always been wrong.

HellofaMouse · Nov 23, 2018

well he is not wrong, but most people value execution more than innovation i think, esp when it comes to aaa.

love his new podcast / talk show thing btw.

Aztechnology · Nov 23, 2018

Asbsand said:
"Yeah new games are so easy, what happened? Games suck now." - John Romero: Lead of the original Doom.

To me the issue that I agree with him is bad is that a lot of AAA games now are, as per the Dragon Age creative director's words "Competing for the player's time", so every big product is essentially trying to cram in as many accessible and trendy features as possible, which is this new shooter-openworld-RPG format where they mix the genres to cater to fans of all types of games and newcomers with how streamlined it is and then the games have lots of content in the form of "do X out of X" template-cut objectives and then they typically have some multiplayer mode too. The point is to provide gamers with that one game they never let go of, then release DLC for it to keep them coming back and have a Microtransactions storefront somewhere in the game so that the longer you keep the player in the game the more opportunities there are that the lustful UX of the MTX storefront finally pulls in even the more reluctant players to skip the grind and spend some more money.

Everything about AAA games, even a lot of those with great creative leads, seem cynical and calculated and probably at worst: Creatively homogenized. I struggle to care about most games that come out these days no matter how original their story or game-world appears in their slick reveal footage. I'm always prepared that it'll be a game that tries to be everything at the same time because of excessive focus testing, market-read and everything a AAA behemoth publisher imposes on a game's production to give it attractions. As a guy who's played a lot of music, read lots of books and all that stuff, while I get games are an interactive media combining the bling and hotness from movies and music and literary stuff, I just think its current state is not the kind of creative avenue me, or a writer, or people with innovative ideas about "play" are feel like getting into. But we end up as Indie-developers... and that avenue has room for creative freedom to a larger extent... It's just a shame it can't happen where the production quality rises and the illusion that games provide has the biggest opportunity to make the player feel.

And frankly, programmers are the biggest artists of the industry imho but most programmers can't do the things that makes games outwardly shine and the way publishers treat the artistic aspects of games is all about focus test and market-read. Not enough artistry. It's a business but it could be less aggressive about it.

Pretty on point.

This line is poignant

Everything about AAA games, even a lot of those with great creative leads, seem cynical and calculated and probably at worst: Creatively homogenized

As far as programmers you're absolutely right. As someone who did 2 years of animation/character modeling. Looked into digipen for Comp Sci and Game Design. And learned the Stark difference in game design and game programming and how little game designers are typically valued. It's rough for the people who really come up with the great ideas unless they have very strong technical skills as well. But that's because just being a designer is a very low barrier to entry comparatively.

The Real Napsta · Nov 23, 2018

Y'all need to show Jaffe some respect.

Powerofthecloud · Nov 23, 2018

We have indies that the AAA take from. See dAYz to pubg. Now we have call of duty or fortnite. Why not have the smaller guys beta test it first.

Toriko · Nov 23, 2018

Omnistalgic said:
But...

God of War and BotW???

I mean, yeah, but there's exceptions..they get applauded and others emulate the standouts. This is the case in like every entertainment genre, ever?

I think so

Last Guardian, Dreams, Alien Isolation, RE7 VR etc.. All of which seem to be conveniently ignored. Yes if you focus on only the 60 dollar EA and Ubisoft titles you might think this way but gaming is better than ever at this moment. Even big budget ones.

impact · Nov 23, 2018

The Real Napsta said:
Y'all need to show Jaffe some respect.

Seriously.

This guy made Drawn To Death ffs.

WordsintheWater · Nov 23, 2018

I can't say that he's wrong, but I don't really care. I mean I love reese's peanut butter cups, I wouldn't eat them every day, that's why it's cool to break things up a bit with something else, but I would never get tired of them.

Dannerz · Nov 23, 2018

Personally agree with him. Maybe he could have used some more examples, but I think the indie space has been killing it compared to AAA for years now when it comes to gameplay innovation.
I know I've played a ton more indie/AA stuff the past few years.
Microtransactions don't help either.

Toriko · Nov 23, 2018

Lukas Taves said:
Looking at the response that some games that tried to think outside the box received I'm not sure it's a problem.

Gamers want AAA games to focus on graphics and cinematography first and foremost and they are abundantly clear when a game fails to deliver on those to focus on something else and the industry is simply giving the public what they want.

Gamers want good gameplay and great visuals and not one or the other. That is why a Ryse and Order do badly while Uncharted 4 and God of War are massive hits.

Aztechnology · Nov 23, 2018

I also truly think VR can open some incredible doors for new types of games and engagement. Just the design paradigm shift and way you interact in a naturalized/intuitive way with 6DOF and good motion controllers is incredible. I really hope we reach the point it's mainstream some day.

I mainly subsist on Indie and AA games now regardless of platform though.

leburn98 · Nov 23, 2018

shinobi602 said:
Eh, I don't foresee a time where high budget games become extinct. The method of their delivery might change over time but they'll always be here in some form.

Video title's misleading in itself too. Should probably be something more along the lines of "AAA creativity is dying". Saying Uncharted 1 and 4 are the "exact same game" made me roll my eyes hard though. They share 90% of the systems, but that 10% difference in production values, plot, setpieces, level design, mobility, etc are the selling point...obviously. I don't see anything wrong with that.

Most games nowadays are iterations of ones that came before.

I would also say that using a sequel as a comparison to prove his point is silly. Of course a sequel is likely going to be the same game with better production values and a few new mechanics thrown in. We are not in the days where sequels going from 2D sprites to full blown 3D characters and environments was considered creative. Game mechanics are at the point where they are now becoming so standardized that it's hard to say if any mechanic added at this point would be considered creative or ground breaking in the same way.

Rygar 8Bit · Nov 23, 2018

Sensei said:
This is a reductionist perspective on why people are upset with RDR2. And even still you're ignoring the fact that, despite the controls being imperfect in a lot of ways, people are mostly enjoying the rest of the package, me included.

That's the thing though. Those controls are perfect and at no time did I struggle with them. People don't want to learn to adapt to the weight and momentum of the movement, so instead of adapting to something new they complain about them instead and call them bad.

Deleted member 42641 · Nov 23, 2018

Sounds like something a nerd would say

Z-Beat · Nov 23, 2018

Seems like you could do just as well as any AAA game with a smaller game as long as you've got a decent marketing budget

David Jaffe- AAA games are dying (creatively speaking)

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