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Nintendo Switch update 6.2.0 may have fixed its security flaw and stopped the hacking scene for now
- Thread starter Deleted member 2791
- Start date
User Banned (3 Days) - Advocating Piracy
Piracy, Homebrew, preservation are incredibly nuanced themes. Each and every one of them can be justified, given specific scenarios.
Yes, even piracy can be morally justified. Even anti DRM advocates recognize it.
So we would all be better off if we would care for these nuances.
Yes, even piracy can be morally justified. Even anti DRM advocates recognize it.
So we would all be better off if we would care for these nuances.
It's fun to find a lot of time the argument of backups, in a console in which the 90% of the catalogue is exclusively digital without a retail release.
And with digital games, once you have purchased a game, you can always download this game from the Nintendo servers to your console.
And even if you lose your console or it's broken, you simply need to go to your my.Nintendo account, deactivate the old device and then register your account in the new console and voilà, you can download again 100% of your digital purchases in the new device. No need of backups.
Also it's fun to see arguments of video game "preservation", but at the same time, seeing posted information about groups such as Team Xecuter, that are clearly advertising their products with the purpose of piracy.
It's great to have hackable consoles once their life cycles have ended.
But when some groups release commercial devices to exploit a system in the second year of a console, instead of waiting until this console has been discontinued, they are only looking for a profit, by obtaining money thanks to the intellectual properties and hard work of other people.
Sometimes, I ask myself where the Era moderation set the the line between discussing about these technical exploits, in which we have the luck of having an active member as talented and informed as Vena, who is a delight to read because he is one of the more knowledgeable persons about security and the hack scene.
And other people simply encouraging piracy, but without using the expression to be able to bypass the rules.
In this thread we can read a good example of this:
https://www.resetera.com/posts/13997396/
In which an user is trying to convince me of something that is only achievable by using piracy: obtaining Switch digital games once your console has been banned by Nintendo, for using one of these exploits.
But as Vena answered:
And with digital games, once you have purchased a game, you can always download this game from the Nintendo servers to your console.
And even if you lose your console or it's broken, you simply need to go to your my.Nintendo account, deactivate the old device and then register your account in the new console and voilà, you can download again 100% of your digital purchases in the new device. No need of backups.
Also it's fun to see arguments of video game "preservation", but at the same time, seeing posted information about groups such as Team Xecuter, that are clearly advertising their products with the purpose of piracy.
It's great to have hackable consoles once their life cycles have ended.
But when some groups release commercial devices to exploit a system in the second year of a console, instead of waiting until this console has been discontinued, they are only looking for a profit, by obtaining money thanks to the intellectual properties and hard work of other people.
Sometimes, I ask myself where the Era moderation set the the line between discussing about these technical exploits, in which we have the luck of having an active member as talented and informed as Vena, who is a delight to read because he is one of the more knowledgeable persons about security and the hack scene.
And other people simply encouraging piracy, but without using the expression to be able to bypass the rules.
In this thread we can read a good example of this:
https://www.resetera.com/posts/13997396/
In which an user is trying to convince me of something that is only achievable by using piracy: obtaining Switch digital games once your console has been banned by Nintendo, for using one of these exploits.
But as Vena answered:
You don't provide any of the supposed nuance yourself here, so it just sounds like yet more vague, poorly defined justification to steal games.
Point being hacking is not all malicious, the arguing of whether its worth it is a matter of degrees and opinions
It's not really a matter of degrees and opinions. If hacks are used to pirate software then they are bad, and no amount of turning your home menu purple undoes that damage. If someone can hack a system in a way in which by no means makes it easier to pirate, then we're talking about something different, but my understanding of the system is that as soon as you can add homebrew applications to it, you can add pirated games to it, and I'm not just including (in this instance) pirated Switch games.
Well if anti-DRM support piracy, it must be okay! /s
Best part is you don't speak for anti-DRM people.
Thats actually not inherently true, you can have homebrew without being able to run backups. Switch had been hacked for a long time without being able to run backups, same thing went for PS4 where they were fully running linux on lower firmwares without being able to play pirated games. Homebrew is kind of the first step, but it isnt equal to being able to pirate. Companies put a lot more checks in for running games, Switch for comparison has a lot more robust ticketing system than the wii u did which doesnt effect being able to get kernel access, even if that seems to be a non-issue now
Either way, the whole logistics of it, isnt really a topic for era
Whatever it means, I am sure it is not something that most people involved in the Switch hacking scenes are actually concerned about, as evident in the behind the Switch hacking scene article from Motherboard I posted earlier, where people are too busy doxxing each other, stealing each other's files, and infiltrating Nintendo's servers.
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It's always interesting seeing the cat v mouse game with hacking
I'm betting on them finding a work around sometime soon, though
I'm betting on them finding a work around sometime soon, though
Very much this. Preservation is a topic I care deeply about, but there's a HUGE window of time even after hardware end of commercial life to preserve stuff. You can find working physical copies of NES consoles and most games by the truckload and that's been out of production and sale for quite a while by now. If the first NES emulator/hack ever made popped out today it would have pretty much the same preservation effect.
you make some great points, and i'm completely against shitting up threads with calling people who are geniunely interested in emulation/homebrew pirates. that shit isn't right and the mods ban people who do that.
but i want to address two of your points, using some personal anecdotes:
1. you say one download=/=one lost sale, and that's 100% true, no one would argue otherwise, but you can deny that out of like every 100 download, one of those is by someone who's interested in the game, has the money, but is just choosing to steal the game because hey, not everyone has the mentality that pirating is actual stealing (or they do and they don't care), there are MANY people who don't see the stealing of digital items as actual stealing, and would 100% of the time go for the way that makes them spend 0$ instead of whatever the game costs to buy it legally. where i live (and i know we're not the only market like this), that mentality is what almost everyone has. you would be considered crazy if you choose to buy a game when the free option is available. for example in the previous generation, you know what console pretty much failed? ps3, because for years it remained unhacked. but the consoles that flourished were the psp and xbox 360. you could go to the supermarket, buy milk and bread and on your way out pick some 360 game out of this box they had with all the games in it, and pay basically for the blank dvd it was burned on. or psp, parents bought the system for their kids, and right then and there the shop would sell them a memory stick and fill it with games, and when the kid was bored he would take the card to the shop and change the games. i never ever saw a shop sell an actual legit psp or 360 game, that just didn't happen. there were some places you could buy legit ps3 games at, and those stopped importing games too once piracy became a thing on the system. in contrast, this generation, you can find legit ps4 and xbo games everywhere. people are buying them cuz piracy isn't [an easy] option. and switch games were available too, but now you won't find them anywhere, because as soon as you buy a switch the shop offers to hack it for you and teach you how to download the games. now i know this market that i'm in isn't the norm, but it would be naive to assume that in the american and european markets, no one is saving the money that they otherwise would have spent on games and instead just downloading them now that the switch allows it. one download isn't one lost sale, but piracy for sure stops many customers from spending money on their hobby.
2. you bring up the fact that hacking the switch makes many of the features unusable so many people may not want to bother, and that's obviously true. but i can say that many of my friends (irl or online) just got a second switch to pirate single player games on. they kept their main one for online games like fortnite or splatoon, but figured out that spending 300$ (the price of 5 games) is a good deal if it means you get to pirate 10s of single player games. i'm sure many other pirates have done the same. yeah they'll buy splatoon or smash or whatever, but all those single player indies (or single player nintendo/third party games) are getting pirated by them.
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That's 100% false. Switch games can absolutely be updated offline. I've updated a friend's copy of Zelda for them without hacking and without online. It's a system feature.
This is false. And not sure where this thing about the Wifi's come from either.
Stop getting your information from disreputable sources. Including this thread.
Wooo, perfect! This is the kind of security fix I like, pirates are stopped but people can still install alternate software.
So this may have hindered the hacking scene but users who care about preservation/custom code are able to downgrade from 6.2 firmware to earlier firmware (this goes for the pirates as well).
Will be curious if this ends up being the stop gap for the scene for awhile depending on how long the TSEC chip holds.
Will be curious if this ends up being the stop gap for the scene for awhile depending on how long the TSEC chip holds.
are they? i thought this one not being hacked means if you actually updated to 6.2 you're out of luck, at least for now. unless you have a backup.
The Switch OS will keep crashing the moment it goes to sleep in this arrangement. If you ask me, that's pretty much broken.
Lakka/Linux stuff would work fine but the interest there is almost entirely zero because of obvious reasons.
i wasn't talking about running a hacked console on 6.2, but downgrading from 6.2 to 6.1 for example. is that possible?
If someone updated using ChoiDujourNX the update doesn't burn an efuse, so they can downgrade again.
6.2 doesn't allow CFW to load up but you can still boot up a CFW loader to allow for the downgrade.
gotcha. but if anyone was using their switch normally, thinking they'll later hack it (because the exploit was known to be unpatchable) they would now be unable to downgrade, right?
The OP is not entirely accurate.
First and foremostly, anyone can still use Switch-Linux and related programs. This most importantly means that Lakka for the Nintendo Switch is still 100% functional on exploitable switches, meaning that if your main reason for hacking a Switch is emulation, you can still do that.
Secondly, a method has been found that lets users dump console unique keys (BIS keys) by doing a partial downgrade to 6.1, which can then be used to completely downgrade to 6.1 (with the caveat of requiring AutoRCM which is a kinda hacky process with some unwanted side-effects, but it can be mostly avoided w/ a dongle).
Finally I wouldn't say its "permanently able to stop it". It's mostly being seen as a challenge, not as an a permanent stopgap.
From what I know there have been no statements suggesting that RS will start relying on userland exploits.
I see that a number of the screenshots in the OP were taken from a site called GBATemp, which is uh... kinda notorious for spreading misinformation like wildfire. While I'm obviously willing to assume that this is probably in good faith, it's usually much better to verify using official channels instead.
For ReSwitched, these can be found on their Twitter (@SciresM and @Reswitched) and they also have a discord, which can be found on their website ( https://reswitched.team/ ), where the screenshots in the screenshots in question were taken from.
First and foremostly, anyone can still use Switch-Linux and related programs. This most importantly means that Lakka for the Nintendo Switch is still 100% functional on exploitable switches, meaning that if your main reason for hacking a Switch is emulation, you can still do that.
Secondly, a method has been found that lets users dump console unique keys (BIS keys) by doing a partial downgrade to 6.1, which can then be used to completely downgrade to 6.1 (with the caveat of requiring AutoRCM which is a kinda hacky process with some unwanted side-effects, but it can be mostly avoided w/ a dongle).
Finally I wouldn't say its "permanently able to stop it". It's mostly being seen as a challenge, not as an a permanent stopgap.
From what I know there have been no statements suggesting that RS will start relying on userland exploits.
I see that a number of the screenshots in the OP were taken from a site called GBATemp, which is uh... kinda notorious for spreading misinformation like wildfire. While I'm obviously willing to assume that this is probably in good faith, it's usually much better to verify using official channels instead.
For ReSwitched, these can be found on their Twitter (@SciresM and @Reswitched) and they also have a discord, which can be found on their website ( https://reswitched.team/ ), where the screenshots in the screenshots in question were taken from.
Yeah doing the 6.2 update the official way, would burn the system efuse, so no way to downgrade then.
Anyone wanting to use homebrew at the moment needs to stay on 6.1 or lower, until 6.2 is cracked anyway.
No they aren't?
Edit: It seems like you need to read the OP more carefully before dismissing it like you are doing.
The first one is, I recognize the font as being from that site.
The first is a quote from this forum and then the next 2 are from SciresM.
I wonder how many people slamming piracy in this thread have bought used games over the years without recognising that used games sales have caused, and continue to cause, much more harm than piracy. :)
I'm not donning my pirate cap but you should also recognise that used games rob Nintendo of their sales while lining Gamestop's dirty pockets. All without requiring system modifications that <2% of Switch owners are doing.
I'm not donning my pirate cap but you should also recognise that used games rob Nintendo of their sales while lining Gamestop's dirty pockets. All without requiring system modifications that <2% of Switch owners are doing.
Incorrect. Found the original GBATemp thread.
https://gbatemp.net/threads/6-2-0-key-generation-could-possibly-be-uncrackable.523985/
It's the OP.
The small sentence at the end is but that is basically what was said in the reswitched discord at the time.
I also hate hackers.
But also homebrew turned the Switch into the best emulation machine on the planet. OK maybe that has to exclude PC but the portable factor and instant handheld to TV switching is really awesome to see on a PS1 emulator...
Again, wrong. No search results for userland in ReSwitcheds discord that indicate to this end after 6.2 was released.
The consensus was that it was going to be a challenge but not an impossible one, straight up from the start. I am in that discord, I saw that conversation and even asked some questions about stuff myself later that same day.
Lol, what? So explain to me how you're gonna preserve something after it is taken offline?
I don't have a tinfoil hat available so I'm not downloading backups to try and "preserve" them but your post makes no sense. You preserve data by storing it before something bad happens, not after. R.I.P, P.T.
I actually backed up an Android game that got taken off the Play Store a few years ago, I can still play it fine on 9.0. Lucky I did it, it's probably available online somewhere but that's not the point is it?
This reminds me of Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3 which went out of print for 4-5 years and was removed from all digital stores. The boxed Vita version still costs close to $60 used these days. Unfortunately I think we're all in for a tough wake up call when a lot of digital games go bye-bye.
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This one is just flat out false.
DSi servers were shut down end 2017/early 2018.
Wii shop is slated to go down end January 2019, with redownloads being disabled at some point in the future.
Nintendo Switch only. 3DS and Wii U require calling up Nintendo Support.
Fuck TX. They're code thieves, massive assholes and really should just be fucking punted and removed from the scene. I can harp on about this group for a while, but I'll save the details unless asked.
There are a couple of legitimate booting dongles out there, but yeah, commercial stuff in Homebrew scene is uh... not a very good history. Or any closed source programs actually.
It's awesome before that too. There's legitimate cool stuff like sys-lanplay that lets games connect over LAN even if the actual devices aren't on a LAN, there's sys-ftpd which runs an FTP server on your Switch, there's NSScreenshotmaker which you can use to sign screenshots, you can backup savegames, the list kinda continues.
Read my post again, chuckles.
R E A D I L Y
A V A I L A B L E
You don't need to hack your damn Switch to play motherfucking Octopath Traveler in the year 2018.
Yes let's try and preserve something after it's taken offline and we can no longer access it.
Correct. Find where I said otherwise.
Deux isn't on one of those Discord's. I'll let you have a stab in the dark of which one.
And while you're all checking the sizes of your morals, Smash has leaked.
They can still downgrade currently without having existing backups. As others have said their sleep mode no longer works in this scenario due to the efuse so they have to keep the switch on/turn it off via the custom firmware after they downgrade.
That's what actual legitimate game preservation efforts are for.
wii and ds servers are going (or went) offline 14 and 12 years after launch. maybe those with concerns of preservation should relax for a bit and start working once the system has been out for more than 2 years? or do we think switch servers are going offline next year?
Oh, do any of them have P.T. and Zombies Ate My Neighbours? They don't... so relying on those efforts is fruitless as they're still held back by so much red tape.
Backing up your own games is not illegal in many countries, so it's perfectly legitimate if you truly want to preserve them.
Also I don't even really advocate for backing up because I'm sure somebody else will have put the games online for me if something dramatic happens and a bunch of games disappear, so I don't really need to waste my own time doing it. Whew, lucky not everyone has my attitude.
Although I'm annoyed I deleted P.T. because I still can't re-download it.
I'm not part of the borderline conspiracy theorists that need to have everything backed up, I'm just saying it's laughable to say you should preserve things AFTER a game has gone offline, because at that point the damage is done and then you're basically advocating for people to just pirate other copies of the game that may already be available online.
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Straight from the discord:
"Yeah. I actually don't see any issues in it, immediately.
(nor in the last 30 hours)
the game is "can you dump the keydata another way, via escalation from userland", or "can you get auth mode code exec on the TSEC?"
NV/N are banking that you can't do the latter.
The former is theoretically patchable via firmware updates."
Like I said that small sentence isn't exactly right as anything can technically be hacked but yeah.
Either way your original post focusing on just that one line is a bit silly to me as the rest of the post was 100% true at the time of posting.
Si if I understand well, the switch can still be used as an emulation/Homebrew machine, but not for piracy or cheating anymore? How could we not all be happy about that?
It's just a roadblack for people that updated to 6.0.2, something else will come along as they didn't fix RCM being accessible (and can't because it's a HW exploit).
I think Nintendo have fixed newer Switches at the hardware level though, so on those units even homebrew is not possible right now.
Hence why I pointed out the fact that it's wrong but also am doing so under the general assumption it wasn't done in bad faith, hence why I corrected it. I can reasonably assume he isn't in the ReSwitched discord, otherwise he'd have used images from that discord directly instead of getting them from GBATemp.
Okay woop. Whatever. I'm a homebrew dev, not a dataminer or a piracy guy.
That uh... doesn't indicate at all they're gonna play cat and mouse with userland. This is just discussing the current possibilities.
It says exactly what it says lol. If they have to use userland escalation then that could be patched out with software, hence the "cat and mouse" analogy.
Because the currently available option is kinda really inconvenient for Homebrew development (since you're basically doing stuff on switch-linux, which has no audio and remote joycon connection drivers right now), as well as it being impossible to run harmless mods like theming the home menu or running a graphical layeredfs mod on the Switch.
I understand the irritation for piracy and cheating and how the gut reaction is "fuck em", but Nintendo has been really dilligent in it's anti-piracy measures and actually routinely bans Switch devices that pirate games (this is included in telemetry), cheat with it's online functionality (Spl2toon even banning you for skin mods that don't affect gameplay) or just have impossible telemetry data (one CFW in particular at the moment doesn't properly patch it's version string).
So Nintendo already takes a ton of precautions against hackers and pirates, which would make the gut reaction a lot of people seem to have (fuck cheaters and pirates, this is a good thing, which I agree with, fuck them, but its not a good thing they're doing this) kinda pointless as a banned Switch device is basically unable to do anything except running system updates (which they re-enabled for 6.2, before that it was disabled), as a result making onlline cheating basically "not a thing" and ensures that a lot less people are willing to pirate due to the fact that unlike on other systems, it's not possible to unban a Switch (reasoning being that bans are usually cert bans and each cert is unique to each Switch.)