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WhovianGamer

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
2,033
S11 feels like the only season (so far) that I'll never return to if things don't pick up. I've got every released episode from 1963 (and the audios of the missing ones where available) but I'm just not into the new feel. Music is utterly forgettable, the stories drag and I only am interested in Graham, and even that is because everyone else is boring.

Hoping there is a big payoff at the end.
 

Pagusas

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,876
Frisco, Tx
Kerblam! was a fun Tennant-era style episode. Ratings are holding steady.

Yep, agreed. It's the first episode this season that both my wife and I said "that feels like doctor who"

We need more like it. I think the historical episodes have been horrible. I'm trying to not judge to harshaly as all the new doctors had poor first seasons (2, 5 and 8 are constantly in my "worst season" list). I expect 11 to be bad and 12 to be good.


To understand my new Who taste, I rank the seasons as follows:

God tier:
Season 4 (and specials)

Great their:
Season 3
Season 7 (second half) and 50th and time of the doctor

Good but with problems
Season 1
Season 2
Season 9
Season 10

Dog shit tier:
Season 5
Season 6
Season 7 (first half)
Season 8


If you can't tell I hated Matt Smith's early era, though I felt in his last few episodes he and the writers finally figured it out and they made him awesome, but my god his first 2 1/2 seasons...yuck.

I'm overly harsh in Season 8 - 10, and honestly season 10 should be dog shit tier but the l truly love the last episode and special. Same goes for season 9, Hell Bent lifts it from dog shit.
 

Ignatz Mouse

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,741
Yep, agreed. It's the first episode this season that both my wife and I said "that feels like doctor who"

We need more like it. I think the historical episodes have been horrible. I'm trying to not judge to harshaly as all the new doctors had poor first seasons (2, 5 and 8 are constantly in my "worst season" list). I expect 11 to be bad and 12 to be good.


To understand my new Who taste, I rank the seasons as follows:

God tier:
Season 4 (and specials)

Great their:
Season 3
Season 7 (second half) and 50th and time of the doctor

Good but with problems
Season 1
Season 2
Season 9
Season 10

Dog shit tier:
Season 5
Season 6
Season 7 (first half)
Season 8


If you can't tell I hated Matt Smith's early era, though I felt in his last few episodes he and the writers finally figured it out and they made him awesome, but my god his first 2 1/2 seasons...yuck.

I'm overly harsh in Season 8 - 10, and honestly season 10 should be dog shit tier but the l truly love the last episode and special. Same goes for season 9, Hell Bent lifts it from dog shit.

Your ratings are similar to mine except I'd bump S8 to Good-with-problems and 10 to somewhere between good-with-problems and great. So I like Capaldi a lot more than you do, but 10 is still my fave of NuWho.
 

Halbrand

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,616
So, I haven't paid attention to Doctor Who for a good while, and my burnout is almost over...

Does jumping back in with this new series pay off, or is it a dud?
It's an absolute dud so far

Imagine thinking Planet of the Dead or The Sontaran Strategem are god-tier Doctor Who.
Yeah, both are awful

And if we're ranking series:

9
Best: The Witch's Familiar, Heaven Sent, Hell Bent
Worst: Sleep No More

5
Best: The Eleventh Hour, Vincent and the Doctor, The Pandorica Opens
Worst: Victory of the Daleks, Hungry Earth, Cold Blood

8
7
4
6
1
2
3
10
11

9 and 5 are absolutely the best IMO. I rank 6 so high because it had some incredible highs and the RTD seasons are difficult to rank because there's some incredible lows like Love and Monsters, Fear Her, Sontaram Strategm, Daleks in Manhattan, The Doctor's Daughter. People complain Moffat sometimes dropped the ball with the conclusion of his stories but RTD really wasn't any better for that.
 
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Double 0

Member
Nov 5, 2017
7,439
I didn't like planet of the dead or the sontarian strategem, but the historical episodes were completely fantastic to me.
 

APZonerunner

Features Editor at VG247.com
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
1,725
England
Imagine thinking Planet of the Dead or The Sontaran Strategem are god-tier Doctor Who.

Planet of the Dead is shit, but there's a whole lot to love in the Sontaran episodes, I think. Raynor had this weird knack for getting the details of antagonists and drama right in an episode, making for the works of a great episode, then draping it in absolute shit to drag the whole thing down. Like the human sub-plots in Evolution of the Daleks, and the fucking awful school for geniuses plot in Sontaran Strategem...

The way the Sontarans are, the way they were re-characterized as this angry race with an ugly imposter complex, the hakas, the fact they've begun to resort to cowardice outside of their ideals of 'pure warfare' etc - it's really, really good. (A shame, since the combination of Strax and the only other Sontarans shown since being entirely incompetent undermines that characterization somewhat.) Also, the stuff with Martha is great - her in UNIT, the Doctor approving but not approving of her being with a military organization, the way Donna steps out of the TARDIS and there's zero animosity - they just get it and get on... Donna's return to family is truncated, but no less effective than the ones with Martha and Rose. Like, there's a lot to unpack in those episodes, and I think they're good. Just, yeah, there's that awful shit with the school and stuff that's a nightmare.

Same for Evolution of the Daleks. Like, thematically I think it's the most interesting Dalek story in the modern show. That could've been Asylum, but it was squandered when "insane Daleks" was taken to mean Daleks that er, are a bit broken physically. But here you've got this contradiction of Daleks encouraged to think outside the box and where that leads. I think the design and the performance of the 'human Dalek' is great, but what I like more is how the pure Daleks slowly turn against him. Eyestalks side-eyeing each other as they begin to doubt his leadership. The Dalek controllers do a great job in these episodes, because they have body language. You can tell they're nervous about what's happening, then angry. Then there's them down in the sewers, literally scooting close to each other in a corner to conspire. I love that stuff. But then, y'know, there's Tallulah and Pig Men and all that shit and fucking hell.

Anyway, I'd take both of those two parters over the generally inoffensive but rather boring Sontaran one from Series 5, etc. I really do think Series 4 and 5 are about even, in quality terms.
 
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APZonerunner

Features Editor at VG247.com
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
1,725
England
Don't forget about baby Andrew Garfield and his miserably bad American accent.

The flip side of all this is I can remember Tallulah's name, and the name of Luke the snotty genius from Sontaran Strategem - and how he's obsessed with calling it the "Atmos System" is a tautology... whereas I can't remember the name of almost any of the incidental character from the last few weeks. Except Rosa, for obvious reason. So it was doing something right even when it was bad.
 

Ignatz Mouse

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,741
Are we only rating seasons by their low points now? The back half of Season 4 is one of the best uninterrupted runs on great NuWho.
 

Pagusas

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,876
Frisco, Tx
Imagine thinking Planet of the Dead or The Sontaran Strategem are god-tier Doctor Who.


Every season has trash, season 4 has more insanely good episodes (in a row even!) than any other season, and the best companion. Silence in the Library and Forest of the Dead alone puts it above everything, add on Turn Left and midnight, The Stolen Earth, Waters of Mars and the last 20 minutes of The End of Time, and you have the best season, and an insanely good ride. Plus Torchwood and Sarah Jane all culminating, it felt like the peak of the Doctor Who universe.
 

Starphanluke

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Nov 15, 2017
7,333
Series 9 had one bad episode (Sleep No More- which was absolutely terrible) and the rest were fantastic. It will always remain one of my favorite seasons of all time- not just of Doctor Who, but television in general.
 

Kinglypuff

Member
Nov 13, 2018
106
I have no need to argue the point, although I liked it. Those four eps alone make S4 one of the best if not the best.

It's certainly my favorite RTD season ! Though I would still put 5, 8 and 9 (my favorite) above it. The finale and Donna's fate still sours me on it a lot, so I'd rank it somewhere along with 10 and 6.

Series 9 had one bad episode (Sleep No More- which was absolutely terrible) and the rest were fantastic. It will always remain one of my favorite seasons of all time- not just of Doctor Who, but television in general.

Couldn't agree more. To me, this is the apex of the Moffat era - tightly written, thematically coherent, poignant and extremely ambitious. I love it so much.
 

Ignatz Mouse

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,741
It's certainly my favorite RTD season ! Though I would still put 5, 8 and 9 (my favorite) above it. The finale and Donna's fate still sours me on it a lot, so I'd rank it somewhere along with 10 and 6.

We certainly have different tastes, as 6 is my least-favorite season and 10 is my favorite Capaldi and maybe my favorite Moffat overall.
 

APZonerunner

Features Editor at VG247.com
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
1,725
England
6 is a wreck, but then again the show was in the greatest behind-the-scenes turmoil of its rebooted life at that time. Lovely two-parter to open it though, and many episodes with great moments, just not many great episodes, sadly.
 

Ignatz Mouse

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,741
Seasaon 6 has one of my favorite all-time episodes. No Doctor Who season is without merit. But it also has the most meh-to-bad episodes.
 

Kinglypuff

Member
Nov 13, 2018
106
We certainly have different tastes, as 6 is my least-favorite season and 10 is my favorite Capaldi and maybe my favorite Moffat overall.

6 has a flawed execution but has some of the highest highs the show ever had, IMO. It tried something new and it still has some of the best episodes ever (The Impossible Astronaut/Day of The Moon, The Doctor's Wife, A Good Man Goes to War, The Girl Who Waited and The God's Complex are all top-tier DW to me, and even the finale and Let's Kill Hitler have a lot of good in them)

10 is weird because you can feel that Moffat wanted to leave after Husbands of River Song - the season is really fun but Bill and Nardole don't have any clear arc and are kind of just along for the ride. It still gave us Extremis, Oxygen, the wonderful finale, Twice Upon a Time and more Missy so I still love it, but it felt to me that Moffat had already said most of what he wanted to say - it's not random if Twice Upon a Time feels like an epilogue rather than a finale.
 

Joqu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,030
The Waffle Kingdom
Oh yeah, I really like the opening two-parter, The God Complex, The Girl Who waited and The Doctor's Wife (to varying degrees of course), and really, I think those highs compare quite favorably to the highs of other seasons. But it's also filled with episodes I truly dislike.
 

Halbrand

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,616
Series 9 had one bad episode (Sleep No More- which was absolutely terrible) and the rest were fantastic. It will always remain one of my favorite seasons of all time- not just of Doctor Who, but television in general.
Absolutely agree

Top 15 of RTD era:
  1. (S2) The Girl in the Fireplace
  2. (S4) Silence in the Library / Forest of the Dead
  3. (S1) The Empty Child / The Doctor Dances
  4. (S3) Blink
  5. (S2) The Impossible Planet / The Satan Pit
  6. (S4) The Waters of Mars
  7. (S3) Smith and Jones / The Family of Blood
  8. (S4) The Fires of Pompeii
  9. (S3) Smith and Jones
  10. (S1) Dalek
  11. (S2) Army of Ghosts / Doomsday
  12. (S1) The Parting of Ways
  13. (S4) Midnight
  14. (S4) Voyage of the Damned
  15. (S1) Rose

Top 15 of Moffat era:

  1. (S9) Face the Raven / Heaven Sent / Hell Bent
  2. (S9) The Magician's Apprentice / The Witch's Familiar
  3. (S5) Vincent and the Doctor
  4. (S7) The Day of the Doctor
  5. (S8) Listen
  6. (S5) The Pandorica Opens / The Big Bang
  7. (S8) Deep Breath
  8. (S6) A Christmas Carol
  9. (S5) The Eleventh Hour
  10. (S7) The Snowmen
  11. (S6) Day of the Moon / The Impossible Astronaut
  12. (S8) Mummy on the Orient Express
  13. (S9) The Husbands of River Song
  14. (S10) Twice Upon a Time
  15. (S6) The Doctor's Wife
 
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Kinglypuff

Member
Nov 13, 2018
106
Let's Kill Hitler is underrated!

I think it tied up River's assassin plot and Amy and Rory's loss of their child waaay to fast - which is, I suppose, the problem of having a very arc-heavy season in a show that's often mostly about a Monster of The Week - and Mel coming out of nowhere didn't feel earned.

But god, does it have excellent moments, both hilarious and moving. Also, this is the best insult everyone could make to Hitler : subverting expectations and shoving him and the tired trope of "Would you go back in time to kill Hitler ?" in the cupboard.
 

Paradox

Member
Oct 28, 2017
683
Couldn't agree more. To me, this is the apex of the Moffat era - tightly written, thematically coherent, poignant and extremely ambitious. I love it so much.

6 has a flawed execution but has some of the highest highs the show ever had, IMO. It tried something new and it still has some of the best episodes ever (The Impossible Astronaut/Day of The Moon, The Doctor's Wife, A Good Man Goes to War, The Girl Who Waited and The God's Complex are all top-tier DW to me, and even the finale and Let's Kill Hitler have a lot of good in them)

10 is weird because you can feel that Moffat wanted to leave after Husbands of River Song - the season is really fun but Bill and Nardole don't have any clear arc and are kind of just along for the ride. It still gave us Extremis, Oxygen, the wonderful finale, Twice Upon a Time and more Missy so I still love it, but it felt to me that Moffat had already said most of what he wanted to say - it's not random if Twice Upon a Time feels like an epilogue rather than a finale.

I just wanted to say that everything you've said is almost exactly what I would've said, and finding literally anyone who even remotely shares your opinion in the world of DW is such a rarity that I just felt the need to point this out :)

S6 is definitely a case of being less than the sum of its parts. It's incredibly easy to forget about all those episodes you listed because the arc is so dominating, often for all the wrong reasons, that you have to consciously stop and think about the good parts hidden beneath everything else.

S10 is the one season I desperately wish I liked more than I do. Like, a properly thought out, well-developed 12/Bill (with optional Nardole) season without the regeneration build up or the pressures to neatly wrap up everything before Chibnall would have been incredible. As it is it feels like 'a series of Doctor Who' rather than anything special.
 

Ignatz Mouse

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,741
6 has a flawed execution but has some of the highest highs the show ever had, IMO. It tried something new and it still has some of the best episodes ever (The Impossible Astronaut/Day of The Moon, The Doctor's Wife, A Good Man Goes to War, The Girl Who Waited and The God's Complex are all top-tier DW to me, and even the finale and Let's Kill Hitler have a lot of good in them)

10 is weird because you can feel that Moffat wanted to leave after Husbands of River Song - the season is really fun but Bill and Nardole don't have any clear arc and are kind of just along for the ride. It still gave us Extremis, Oxygen, the wonderful finale, Twice Upon a Time and more Missy so I still love it, but it felt to me that Moffat had already said most of what he wanted to say - it's not random if Twice Upon a Time feels like an epilogue rather than a finale.

Season 6: The Girl Who Waited is one of my absolute favorite episodes, but I dislike-to-hate most of the others you listed. I actually like The Rebel Flesh/Almost People which people seem to hate. The Silence are an awesome concept as badguys but they just didn't work in practice.

Season 10: I agree that it feels like an epilogue, but most of the individual stories are great and I love Bill and Nardole. They don't need an arc.

Overall, I don't mind a tease of a finale or a background arc, but when they came to the foreground I thought they ruined the show. S6 is the peak version of that.
 

Kinglypuff

Member
Nov 13, 2018
106
I just wanted to say that everything you've said is almost exactly what I would've said, and finding literally anyone who even remotely shares your opinion in the world of DW is such a rarity that I just felt the need to point this out :)

Glad to see someone sharing my opinion ! The DW fandom truly is a blend of completely contradictory opinions but that's also part of its charm to me. :)
 

Proteus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,982
Toronto
Season 7 is at the bottom of my list for the 2005 series. Although it's starting to look like 2011 might take it over unfortunately.
 

Halbrand

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,616
I've seen people compliment the cinematography this series but I think Series 8 in particular looks way better. Hope the older seasons had the 2:1 aspect ratio too though.

vpSPHCg.jpg
 

Spotless Mind

Member
Oct 27, 2017
292
Australia
The artistic direction and cinematography is such a massive nosedive from Moffat's seasons. Been rewatching some season 7-10 eps concurrently with this season and they have so much more visual flair and stylistic energy it's ridiculous. 11 feels so dull and is a step back in every regard production design wise.

Been really disappointed with this season. I don't think there has been a true standout yet. Rosa and Demons have been the best so far, but they still felt lacking to me. I can't really fault Jodie, she's great, but the writing is doing her no favours.
 

Fairy Godmother

Backward compatible
Moderator
Oct 27, 2017
3,289
Amazon in space!! I was hoping for a darker twist or some sort of gimmicks. I think they're going for a relatable direction rather than something too abstract.
 

Halbrand

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,616
The artistic direction and cinematography is such a massive nosedive from Moffat's seasons. Been rewatching some season 7-10 eps concurrently with this season and they have so much more visual flair and stylistic energy it's ridiculous. 11 feels so dull and is a step back in every regard production design wise.

Been really disappointed with this season. I don't think there has been a true standout yet. Rosa and Demons have been the best so far, but they still felt lacking to me. I can't really fault Jodie, she's great, but the writing is doing her no favours.
Absolutely, I don't know how anyone can actually think it's better. Everything about Series 11 can be summed up as dull as well.

I didn't like Demons of Punjab and even Rosa had problems with the time traveller and that music at the end (AND the credits) was godawful.

It's actually hilarious imagining Moffat yelling like a madman at someone that she will be erased from Doctor Who history

It is amazing that Moffat was able to finish up Series 7 in 2013, produce the biggest episode in its history with the 50th Anniversary special, found out after filming that Matt would be leaving so he put together his exit for Christmas, and put together Peter Capaldi's first series which began filming just a couple months after the 50th anniversary aired.
 
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APZonerunner

Features Editor at VG247.com
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
1,725
England
What actually happened during S6 behind the scenes? I'm curious.

Is that the year Moffat erased a producer out of existence?

The infamous "you are erased from Doctor Who!" public producer firing was series 7, but the series 7 situation was led to by Series 6. Supposedly a few things happened during/around S6. First, one of the Series 5 producers got disciplined for nepotism or something - like, she hired her own partner on to the production of the series 5 episodes that filmed abroad (Vincent & Vampires iirc) and then they stayed on in Croatia after filming was done for a little holiday - a breach of BBC rules. She was disciplined for this as Series 6 was spinning up, and then she left the BBC entirely. Her co-producer, who presumably looked the other way, was promoted 'sideways' off Doctor Who into a similar position elsewhere in the BBC. (He's done alright for himself though, as he's now controller of Drama or something).

Then Moffat had some really bad scripting problems where the workload was just untenable because of Sherlock... he gave up a couple of episodes he was scheduled to write. All of this was a factor (though not the deciding one, afaik) in the series getting split in two, and when it was split in two it also had to be re-ordered and rewritten to accommodate that. While all of this comes from insider scuttlebutt and all that, Moffat is plainly on the record explaining that it was one of the most stressful years of his life and he strongly considered leaving after Series 7 and the 50th in the wake of it.

I dunno if my description of the most tumultuous time is entirely true, to be fair - that might go to midway through Series 3 when torn between Torchwood, Sarah Jane Adventures, Doctor Who and all his other duties RTD began to have a breakdown and Julie Gardner began actioning plans with the BBC to bring Doctor Who to a close and take it off the air at the end of series 4... the amazing thing is we came that close, then RTD burst back in, the workaholic, revitalized and insisting the show continued. Part of Series 3's all-over-the-place quality and the mad Deus Ex Machina ending of Last of the Time Lords is due to the ridiculously high-pressure situation it was delivered in, though. Series 3 and 6 have that in common.
 

PaulloDEC

Visited by Knack
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,414
Australia
It's such a shame that Moffat never had producers like Julie Gardner and Phil Collinson during his time. Every time you heard those two speak you could hear their love for the show spilling out. They always seemed like an incredibly supportive team for Russell.
 

infiniteloop

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,203
light spoilers of Witchfinders.
soild episode. Alan Cumming camps it up as James I. First half is a little slow, but picks up. Reminded me a little of The Visitation + Unquiet Dead. Def not a script you could have done with any previous doctor