How did Bethesda go from one of the premier open world studios to a bottom tier open world studio?

I have never ever considered bethesda as a premiere open world games. I mean compared skyrim, fallout 4, to witcher 3 and it's a complete joke.

The only game that was really something was morrowind, sure the engine combat is bad but at the time, the role playing of this game was out of this world.

Bethesda's problem is that they never really take enough risks ans always played it safe. I feel im one of the few people that hated skyrim, I thought it was outdated at release, now imagine when it got rerelease 5 years later...

Bethesda was a developer that I loved for the settings/world/lore that they created. Morrowind was my introduction to them and to this day remains the gold standard for me in how a game can immerse me into it. I loved the books that depicted a rich and often pretty nutty history, the alien appearance of...pretty much almost everything on that quaint island, and even the main story was interesting. The various Great Houses, the Vampires, the Tribunal, and countless other small details captivated me. For me it was an experience unlike anything else. I spent countless hours exploring that island and loved nearly every moment of it. Yes, the animation, combat, and mechanics weren't great but that barely diminished my love for the game. Sadly, since then Bethesda hasn't been able to recapture that magic for me. Oblivion was too simplified and held none of the unique alien charm of Morrowind. Skyrim was a step forwards and backwards in quite a few regards as well.

Without the overwhelming love for the setting it comes down to quests, gameplay mechanics and everything else that can be done in the games...in that regard Bethesda has never truly been great in my opinion. As other game developers begin to do some pretty amazing things with open world games one can't help but compare it to Bethesda's game...for me Bethesda comes up lacking a bit. Of course, it isn't an easy comparison to make since Bethesda is doing things that games that BoTW and Witcher aren't doing.

I'm not quite at the point where I'm going to give up on Bethesda but the next two games might be what breaks my goodwill for them. I want Starfield to be a spectacular game that makes me fall in love all over again with Bethesda. :(

As others have said, they peaked a long time ago at a time where they didn't have much competition outside of smaller studios like Piranha Bytes. Skyrim showed that they could still make something solid and they were rightfully successful, but it was just them refining what they had already been doing for years. Other studios drank their milkshake by doing more than iterating on that style of open world gaming, and were better for it. Meanwhile, Fallout 4 struggled to evolve that style in any meaningful way, and FO76 is clearly a desperate attempt at taking their framework and cashing in on a genre that was already on its way out years ago.

I don't think they were that great to begin with. Jank - especially in combat and character models - has always been a big problem with their games. Oblivion is the last game of theirs I "loved", and even then it was often done with gritted teeth. All the complaints that Fallout 76 is receiving now are ones I've had for over a decade now. It always drove me nuts that they got a free pass.

Cuz they're lazy devs.

Obviously I'm joking.

Nairume said:

As others have said, they peaked a long time ago at a time where they didn't have much competition outside of smaller studios like Piranha Bytes. Skyrim showed that they could still make something solid and they were rightfully successful, but it was just them refining what they had already been doing for years. Other studios drank their milkshake by doing more than iterating on that style of open world gaming, and were better for it. Meanwhile, Fallout 4 struggled to evolve that style in any meaningful way, and FO76 is clearly a desperate attempt at taking their framework and cashing in on a genre that was already on its way out years ago.

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This. Morrowwind was the last game of theirs I really enjoyed. Skyrim was fun to run around in for a couple weeks.

Because they just keep re-doing the same games over and over without bothering to actually improve upon the combat, and in some areas get even worse (Fallout 4's actual RPG choices).

My hot takes.

Though Skyrim's open world was brilliant, the game itself disappointed me.

In terms of production value and polish, Bethesda will remain a generation (maybe even 2) behind R* and CDPR's next generation offerings. I'll be surprised if Starfield and TES match TW3 let alone Cyberpunk.

Nintendo has also far surpassed what Bethesda can do for an Open World with BoTW - they will only improve with the follow up.

Fallout NV was a much better game than both Skyrim and Fallout 3.

You would after Sea of Thieves that a sandbox game with the bare minimum to do would have been avoided

Bethesda and Bioware have been on a slow decline since the early 2000's. Bethesda was lucky that for most of that time if you wanted an open world RPG they were almost the only game in town. The Gothic and Risen series from Piranha Bytes exist but the good ones never broke into the mainstream and the later games shit the bed. Fallout New Vegas showed how far Bethesda fell in the RPG department, but it was the Witcher 3 that really showed them up in pretty much every way.

As for their future well until one of the mainline series bombs I see no reason for them to drastically change course. Millions of people still seemingly love their games and I am just some fucko on the internet who is annoyed they don't make strange weird games like Morrowind anymore or even decent RPGs. Unless the sales numbers start to change that is the lay of the land. Luckily for me I no longer have to depend on them, or Bioware, for my RPG fix, so I am not too bothered by their decline.

HenryEen said:

I played Morrowind and Oblivion a few months ago, and I think I liked them more than Witcher 3 ? I dunno they feel more immersive to me than W3 ?

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Same here. I'm sure witcher 3 is much better if you enjoy geralt as a template. If you don't, though, there is not a lot there to keep your interest.

Bethesda has become Telltale.

Same engine. Same gameplay template. Same everything. Just a different coat of paint.

Ubisoft are kings of the open world, what's this Bethesda talk about ?

Wil Grieve said:

They make one shitty game and suddenly they are bottom tier?

Fallout 4 was awesome. Fallout 3 was awesome. Oblivion was awesome. Skyrim was awesome. Morrowind was awesome.

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more like they were all janky, unpolished, badly written garbage as well that got a pass. It's about time people opened their eyes

I feel like we had this argument recently and Kotaku had an article recently trying to tell us we were stupid for thinking it.

They are using outdated tech, tools, and most importantly, thought processes.

They need almost a total reboot of their game design.

Ubisoft did it with Assassins Creed so it can be done although in Bethesda's case it won't be that easy. Ubisoft puts several studios and 1000+ people to work on Assassins Creed whereas Bethesda has one studio with what I believe 400 or less.

SG-17 said:

Fallout 4 was a bad RPG and a bad Fallout game. The other parts were pretty good though.

Fallout 3 was a middling RPG and an okay Fallout game.

Skyrim was a much simplified RPG compared to Oblivion which was simplified from Morrowind. Bethesda has been on a steady slow decline for well over a decade.

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Since I always heard nothing but shittalking about Oblivion for the past decade, I'm interested in what you're thinking Skyrim dumbed down in the transition. It's been so long since I played that I can barely remember it.

I wouldnt say they've fallen or anything. They just haven't really improved much compared to everyone else

Crap engine, and I know the term lazy developer is highly offensive here. However what else can you use?

They've ported Skyrim to multiple platforms and never once in those many years did they bother to fix the game breaking bugs that the game has. Yet charge full price for these ports.

That sounds pretty fucking lazy to me.

The engine they use is trash, it was trash when they were using it in Skyrim, its beyond trash now and they really need to dump that engine ASAP.

I think it is less that Bethesda got worse but more that the competition got a whole lot better over the years. Bethesda is no longer the only player in town if you want high quality open-world games. Because of that, Bethesda's deficiencies in their game design has become more apparent.

I like Bethesda but their main studio, Bethesda Game Studios is average at best. Skyrim couldn't run well on PS3, was given a pass and got away with it. Fallout 4 had a bunch of issues, was given a pass and got away with it. Fallout 76 is a fucking disaster and finally, it's getting the response it should be getting because if you keep giving them a pass, they will never fix their issues and never get better which is what everyone should want.

Personally, I don't have any real interest in Bethesda Game Studios as I see Machine Games, Id Software, Tango Gameworks and Arkane as simply better, at least for me anyway but hopefully, BGS can create a brand new engine from the ground up for next gen because if they release next gen games that look like Fallout 4, they will get completely thrashed and rightfully so.

People kept giving them a pass for relasinre broken piece of shit games

Shatty McKracken said:

I feel like we had this argument recently and Kotaku had an article recently trying to tell us we were stupid for thinking it.

They are using outdated tech, tools, and most importantly, thought processes.

They need almost a total reboot of their game design.

Ubisoft did it with Assassins Creed so it can be done although in Bethesda's case it won't be that easy. Ubisoft puts several studios and 1000+ people to work on Assassins Creed whereas Bethesda has one studio with what I believe 400 or less.

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Well Ubisoft Montreal is reported to have 3000 plus employees. They don't mess about.

Phantom Thief said:

I don't think 76 is well representative of their output, given how it is actually out of their comfort zone.

That said, other developers, such as CDPR and Nintendo, caught up and surpassed them in many regards and they're still stuck in 2011, at the height of their success.

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Nintendo? I don't think nintendo is competing in the open world area in the same way bethesda, rockstar and cdprojecktred are, now of course if you argue quality, yeah something like botw counts, but it's a different kind of game altogether and it's not just the artstyle.

Vire said:

*watches video*

Looks like Fallout 4 to me in terms of jank.

Why was that acceptable then?

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Because it had 100 hours of narrative single player action at its core.

I never felt like they were a premier studio. They were just focused on "scale" at a time when few were. I think being ambitious with TES Morrowind and Oblivion really catapaulted them into mainstream success...but in hindsight they weren't putting quality content in those games (IMO) just a mountain of average content.

I'll gladly trade their focus on all that stuff for a more refined, produced, and STABLE experience.

(Fuck their toolset that they refuse to abandon for "modders")

Don't worry OP, we'll get back to the regular jank when TES6 releases

If compared to other open world 'AAA' releases this gen, their games have definitely been mid to bottom tier.

daniel77733 said:

I like Bethesda but their main studio, Bethesda Game Studios is average at best. Skyrim couldn't run well on PS3, was given a pass and got away with it. Fallout 4 had a bunch of issues, was given a pass and got away with it. Fallout 76 is a fucking disaster and finally, it's getting the response it should be getting because if you keep giving them a pass, they will never fix their issues and never get better which is what everyone should want.

Personally, I don't have any real interest in Bethesda Game Studios as I see Machine Games, Id Software, Tango Gameworks and Arkane as simply better, at least for me anyway but hopefully, BGS can create a brand new engine from the ground up for next gen because if they release next gen games that look like Fallout 4, they will get completely thrashed and rightfully so.

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I tend to use Bethesda as short hand for BGS, but yeah the publisher Bethesda has actually put out some damn good titles. Prey and the Dishonored series from Arkane are among my personal favorite games of the past decade.

wow, reading this thread I see people are still giving bethesda passes, acting like 76 is their only unpolished, outdated, poorly designed game lol. FO4 - terrible, FO3 - terrible, skyrim - terrible. Their games are vastly overrated...

Marano said:

Nintendo? I don't think nintendo is competing in the open world area in the same way bethesda, rockstar and cdprojecktred are, now of course if you argue quality, yeah something like botw counts, but it's a different kind of game altogether and it's not just the artstyle.

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BotW is the most similar to the Bethesda style of game of all the open world games that have come out this gen. It emphasizes emergent gameplay and systems driven encounters, unlike something like TW3 or RDR, which are more focused on storytelling in an open world framework.

Knowledge said:

wow, reading this thread I see people are still giving bethesda passes, acting like 76 is their only unpolished, outdated, poorly designed game lol. FO4 - terrible, FO3 - terrible, skyrim - terrible. Their games are vastly overrated...

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Why do people like to pretend like their opinions are fact?

Phantom Thief said:

Why do people like to pretend like their opinions are fact?

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It's definitely a fact that thier games are unpolished. The rest are up for debate.

Phantom Thief said:

Why do people like to pretend like their opinions are fact?

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I never said people have to agree with me, but I'm still calling it how I see it. And bethesda games for the longest time have been the same template games one after the other. People are starting to get fed up with it now though

Spider-Man said:

Bethesda has become Telltale.

Same engine. Same gameplay template. Same everything. Just a different coat of paint.

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lmao what

this is.......,,, not true

Regis said:

They never were in the Premier league.

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If one were to make a video focusing on story/lore, gameplay systems, customization, distinctiveness etc., it would paint a rather different picture. The games have different strengths, and in any case both (and Gothic I) sit comfortably in a "Premier League" of CRPGs. Of course, the sequels are another story...

8byte said:

I never felt like they were a premier studio. They were just focused on "scale" at a time when few were. I think being ambitious with TES Morrowind and Oblivion really catapaulted them into mainstream success...but in hindsight they weren't putting quality content in those games (IMO) just a mountain of average content.

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While not all the content is great, I think it's still more consistent and engaging than most of the games that have come out since, and those quests are enhanced by the uniqueness of the setting and world. For similar reasons, Oblivion, with its mostly generic fantasy setting and main quest structure, is held back despite featuring many good quests in its own right.

Dekim said:

I think it is less that Bethesda got worse but more that the competition got a whole lot better over the years. Bethesda is no longer the only player in town if you want high quality open-world games. Because of that, Bethesda's deficiencies in their game design has become more apparent.

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While this is true in part, I don't really feel like many open-world developers are creating the same kind of emergent systems that Bethesda has been known for. The closest is probably Breath of the Wild, and even then it's not really the same at all.

Phantom Thief said:

BotW is the most similar to the Bethesda style of game of all the open world games that have come out this gen. It emphasizes emergent gameplay and systems driven encounters, unlike something like TW3 or RDR, which are more focused on storytelling in an open world framework.

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Also technicaly and graphicaly (and also budgetwise, even more so when it comes to rockstar) cdprojecktred and rockstar are on another level compared to nintendo and it's clear bethesda is falling short compared to them, now I don't think the same expectations are or should be placed on nintendo games, because that's simply not their style, bethesda though? Yeah, if you expect the same level of polish and graphics from their games as you'd expect from cdprojeckt and rockstar you'll be disappointed, anyway I think they've warranted that expectation.

Knowledge said:

I never said people have to agree with me, but I'm still calling it how I see it. And bethesda games for the longest time have been the same template games one after the other. People are starting to get fed up with it now though

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Actually, no. Fallout 4 is the best selling Fallout game ever. People don't get fed up, in fact, their audience is growing than ever before.

Unless if you're only talking about Fallout 76 which is a difference game than Bethesda's regular offering.

"Streamlining"

Every game after Morrowind stripped more and more away until we ended up with the dumpster fire that was Fallout 4. That was my last straw. Fewer bugs and a better engine means nothing when each new release is more dumbed down than the last.

Bethesda's games have always had problems (namely the janky af engine and technical issues), but Skyrim is still one of my favorite games of all time. I loved Oblivion too. Fallout 3 was decent, but Fallout 4 was disappointing especially considering New Vegas, and started showing a decline in quality for me.

Fallout 76 is a complete disaster and I'm unsure how it even got released in this state. We'll see where they go with Starfield and TES VI in the future, but they've fallen far behind the competition at this point.

Cartridge Games said:

"It's ok because they're the only one that can make games like this" lost its validity when open world games became commonplace.

That being said, they're not that bad just because they released a weirdly bad multiplayer game

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It was never valid to begin with, you'd only hear it coming from the most delusional stans ever, and you'll still do.

Overdue for an engine switch IMO. Long overdue.
Plus bad decisions on what to cut in favor of trying to create a multiplayer game was a big deal. People dont feel like theres anything in the world worth bothering with. Just you and monsters...like they wanted it to turn into Day Z fallout edition. Given the thirst and hunger stuff this doesn't seem far off. Thing is crafting sucks, and they threw away proper character customization for RNG in order to promote a marketplace to buy shit in eventually IMO. Buy base parts. Buy costumes. Buy perk cards so you can finally make your character play how you intended.

Thing is no people in the world means it fails as a Fallout. No one feels as engaged with an empty world to go in. Why gather anything? Why do anything? Theres no one left to help or hurt. Not like folks find each other and have decent PVP to go full Day Z drama anyhow.

Game is just a plethora of mixed ideas and no idea of how to sustain their core elements or implement the new ones properly. All that on a dated engine with used assets...no one will give them a pass anymore after this.

Hey said:

Its like we already forgot they developed Doom 2016 that everybody fell in love with.

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They made a trash game so now they're bottom tier / have never been good in retrospect / skeptical emoji here.

Until they release Elder Scrolls VI and it's (presumably) good, then they'll be one of the GOATs again.

Knowledge said:

wow, reading this thread I see people are still giving bethesda passes, acting like 76 is their only unpolished, outdated, poorly designed game lol. FO4 - terrible, FO3 - terrible, skyrim - terrible. Their games are vastly overrated...

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I mean, I'm with you on their history.

That, and outside of system tweaks their games all look and feel the same. Regardless of enhancements to their renderer, physics engines, or "dog technology"...you can always tell a Bethesda game just by looking at it, even in screen shots. It's distinctly mediocre and generic.

ckareset said:

Hottake: They were ambitious but never really great. So they weren't that hard to surpass

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This. I love the Skyrim series, but I never play vanilla. It's such a shitty experience. Vanilla Skyrim/Fallout is ugly and buggy as hell but I love the games because of the dedicated modding community. I think the majority of fans feel the same way as me.

the magical kitsune said:

They made a trash game so now they're bottom tier / have never been good in retrospect / skeptical emoji here.

Until they release Elder Scrolls VI and it's (presumably) good, then they'll be one of the GOATs again.

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Judging by the downward trend of quality of BGS games since 2002, that's a big presumption.

texhnolyze said:

Actually, no. Fallout 4 is the best selling Fallout game ever. People don't get fed up, in fact, their audience is growing than ever before.

Unless if you're only talking about Fallout 76 which is a difference game than Bethesda's regular offering.

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Sales do not determine quality. People bought that game based off the name. Just like the ones who went out and bought 76 before the review scores hit

Jessie said:

They didn't develop Doom, and it's not an open world game.

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Yes they did, its the same studio that worked on Fall out 76.

I know its not open world ,but he talked about them being bottom tier just because of one game and forgot all the good things.

I'm glad the mainstream is giving them deserved shit for 76. Side game or not, this wake up call needed to happen. A decade ago the only guys doing open world games of equal scale and ambition were Rockstar. Bethesda isn't special anymore today and this backlash is long over due and should have happened when Fallout 4 was a regression in damn near every way from their previous titles with the same bug ridden mess of an engine held together by rubber bands and paper clips. Don't even get me started on comparing it to New Vegas.

Really hope this situation causes them to rethink not only their engine, but their overall game design choices going forward.

Bethesda's games have always been hot messes that are somehow really fun to play. I'm pretty into 76 as well and can see myself playing it for a couple more weeks, which would be consistent with how much time I tend ti give these at launch.

inpHilltr8r said:

Because it had 100 hours of narrative single player action at its core.

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100 hours of mediocre writing gives it a pass? Well I'll be damned.