• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
  • We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.

cervanky

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,296
It's honestly upsetting seeing a forum like ResetEra that's so far-left in its politics most of the time until you get to the subject of corporations losing hypothetical money to piracy and then everyone goes 'well hold on a second'

It's fucking embarrassing honestly
As I've brought up a couple times already - this forum has a weekly thread that always reaches at least a dozen pages just to discuss sales charts. So many people here grew up with (and continue to perpetuate, even subconsciously) "console wars". People pick favourite corporations and root for their hardware, ecosystems, and product successes. It's maybe unique to the medium - video games require an upfront investment into closed systems, so people feel the need to justify the purchase, and over time people's identities incorporate, in some small way, their corporate allegiance. Like you don't see book lovers fight over Penguin Random House and HarperCollins...well, AFAIK.

My concern is with the condemnation of those who pirate. It's not advocating for or rationalizing piracy, it's empathizing with those who do and understanding the inherent unfairness of how art is so much more accessible to certain parts of the population than others, the inherent unjust inequality of capitalism, and those corporations and our institutions' failure to make this part of the culture accessible to everyone the same way we have with literature, film, and music.

The common response to this sentiment is "too bad, doesn't justify piracy" - whatever, I'm not talking about the act itself. Regardless of how much of a sin those acts of piracy might be, I'd argue it's a greater sadness that vast swaths of this medium is closed off to millions of people who can't afford it, and that the history of it is further restricted and solely curated by the corporations - not the artists, remember! - who commissioned the work by hiring employees and not paying them a proportionate cut of the revenue generated by their art. That matters more to me than if Nintendo Co. Ltd's war chest increases from $4.6 billion to $4.61 billion. Socioeconomic conditions don't justify piracy? I'd argue that "protecting IP" doesn't justify corporate control over culture and the arts at the expense of the artists and the people.

And it's difficult to have this conversation without the accusation levied against me that I'm rationalizing the act. This is a very different example and I understand it's much more serious, but bear with me: I wouldn't advocate for someone to do hard drugs, but I would empathize with, understand, and discuss the situation that leads to these circumstances, and I would condemn society's enforcement of the rule of law instead of bettering the conditions that led to that choice. I should hope that we can talk about piracy and the circumstances surrounding it without advocating for it, but I feel like the unwillingness to allow that wiggle room is endemic of how deeply ingrained corporatism is in our culture - the inaccessibility of culture to people with less money is just universally accepted as something that might be unfortunate, but is just the way it is, so don't you dare consider the cultural benefits of piracy, if any - it's a crime that causes harm to the "creators", the corporations (not necessarily the artists!), and that's apparently what's most important.

Using poor people as reason to why rom sites should exist is example of arguing in bad faith. Hell. It literally belittle the poor people.

Guess what? Those so called poor people who pirate the F out of PS4, PS3, 3DS and Switch all is damn capable to buy those consoles only. But nope they must be damb poor when they can just throw 300 bucks easily to buy an openly cracked platform and easily browse the whole rom sites looking for cheap games.

Poor people guys.
This is gross and I hope I articulated why I feel that way in my post above. "So-called poor people", really?
 
Last edited:

Maximus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,586
Surprised at how many people are shocked about this. This couple did something illegal and got stomped on. It's to set a lesson as many others already mentioned.
 

AppleKid

Member
Feb 21, 2018
2,529
I still am confused how pirating is any different than buying a used copy of something where the developer gets no money from the purchase. Not saying I condone either, just that I view both as the creators not getting paid for the content they created
 

bionic77

Member
Oct 25, 2017
30,894
I still am confused how pirating is any different than buying a used copy of something where the developer gets no money from the purchase. Not saying I condone either, just that I view both as the creators not getting paid for the content they created
One obvious difference is they pay for the physical media that they later resold and can only sell what they buy.

I generally don't care about people who pirate (unless they brag about it or try to rationalize it). But I can't feel too bad about someone is trying to profit from it.
 

RedSwirl

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,058
As I've brought up a couple times already - this forum has a weekly thread that always reaches at least a dozen pages just to discuss sales charts. So many people here grew up with (and continue to perpetuate, even subconsciously) "console wars". People pick favourite corporations and root for their hardware, ecosystems, and product successes. It's maybe unique to the medium - video games require an upfront investment into closed systems, so people feel the need to justify the purchase, and over time people's identities incorporate, in some small way, their corporate allegiance. Like you don't see book lovers fight over Penguin Random House and HarperCollins...well, AFAIK.

My concern is with the condemnation of those who pirate. It's not advocating for or rationalizing piracy, it's empathizing with those who do and understanding the inherent unfairness of how art is so much more accessible to certain parts of the population than others, the inherent unjust inequality of capitalism, and those corporations and our institutions' failure to make this part of the culture accessible to everyone the same way we have with literature, film, and music.

The common response to this sentiment is "too bad, doesn't justify piracy" - whatever, I'm not talking about the act itself. Regardless of how much of a sin those acts of piracy might be, I'd argue it's a greater sadness that vast swaths of this medium is closed off to millions of people who can't afford it, and that the history of it is further restricted and solely curated by the corporations - not the artists, remember! - who commissioned the work by hiring employees and not paying them a proportionate cut of the revenue generated by their art. That matters more to me than if Nintendo Co. Ltd's war chest increases from $4.6 billion to $4.61 billion.

And it's difficult to have this conversation without the accusation levied against me that I'm rationalizing the act. This is a very different example and I understand it's much more serious, but bear with me: I wouldn't advocate for someone to do hard drugs, but I would empathize with, understand, and discuss the situation that leads to these circumstances, and I would condemn society's enforcement of the rule of law instead of bettering the conditions that led to that choice. I should hope that we can talk about piracy and the circumstances surrounding it without advocating for it, but I feel like the unwillingness to allow that wiggle room is endemic of how deeply ingrained corporatism is in our culture - the inaccessibility of culture to people with less money is just universally accepted as something that might be unfortunate, but is just the way it is, so don't you dare consider the cultural benefits of piracy, if any - it's a crime that causes harm to the "creators", the corporations (not necessarily the artists!), and that's apparently what's most important.

It's because the console manufacturers spend millions of dollars advertising their platforms and games as being better than the other guy. Users grow up as fans because they've been doing this for decades, and that desire to justify the $400 purchase turns into a large part of their identity. From what I can see the console wars mentality today isn't quite as bad as it was back during SNES vs Genesis/Mega Drive or PS2 vs Xbox vs GameCube, but it's still pretty bad.

The closest thing I can think of in other media might be the Marvel vs DC rivalry maybe? I don't read cape comics though, and the financial investment there isn't nearly as high. The Windows/Mac OS rivalry isn't even like this. Maybe some people take a little bit too much pride in being Mac users, but there isn't a constant war over which one is "winning." The users aren't willing to bleed for Microsoft and Apple.

I think this is all wrapped up in how console manufacturers generally still treat video games -- like toys. I've seen people on this forum (or the old forum) openly say that preservation and access to gaming history doesn't matter because games aren't media, but rather toys to be thrown away when the hot new thing comes out. At least that's my interpretation of how console manufacturers have treated their legacy content -- they only bring them back when they want to stoke nostalgia and get more people to buy them. Movie companies and music companies just keep everything available, partly so people can keep buying them and giving them money, but also partly because they feel, on some level, that it's important. Heck, Christopher Nolan and a bunch of other movie industry people just lobbied to save FilmStruck. I couldn't imagine seeing something like that happen in the console gaming space.

And I get that part of it is the technology -- for decades it turned out that restarting with a completely new architecture for each console yielded otherwise unattainable advances in performance-per-dollar, while PC and mobile on the other hand make sacrifices for backwards compatibility. A lot of it though really is the business. Console gaming companies are keeping their libraries locked down to a degree that is unique in the world of media, and a lot of their biggest fans don't care.
 

Wild Card

Member
Oct 26, 2017
585
Why do I feel like this topic and allowing people to stream games are like a step removed from each other?
 

Wild Card

Member
Oct 26, 2017
585
Regardless of your feeling on the situation I feel like I can say that defending a corporation rarely results in benefiting the majority of people, and in fact, the opposite is true.
 

cervanky

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,296
It's because the console manufacturers spend millions of dollars advertising their platforms and games as being better than the other guy. Users grow up as fans because they've been doing this for decades, and that desire to justify the $400 purchase turns into a large part of their identity. From what I can see the console wars mentality today isn't quite as bad as it was back during SNES vs Genesis/Mega Drive or PS2 vs Xbox vs GameCube, but it's still pretty bad.

The closest thing I can think of in other media might be the Marvel vs DC rivalry maybe? I don't read cape comics though, and the financial investment there isn't nearly as high. The Windows/Mac OS rivalry isn't even like this. Maybe some people take a little bit too much pride in being Mac users, but there isn't a constant war over which one is "winning." The users aren't willing to bleed for Microsoft and Apple.

I think this is all wrapped up in how console manufacturers generally still treat video games -- like toys. I've seen people on this forum (or the old forum) openly say that preservation and access to gaming history doesn't matter because games aren't media, but rather toys to be thrown away when the hot new thing comes out. At least that's my interpretation of how console manufacturers have treated their legacy content -- they only bring them back when they want to stoke nostalgia and get more people to buy them. Movie companies and music companies just keep everything available, partly so people can keep buying them and giving them money, but also partly because they feel, on some level, that it's important. Heck, Christopher Nolan and a bunch of other movie industry people just lobbied to save FilmStruck. I couldn't imagine seeing something like that happen in the console gaming space.

And I get that part of it is the technology -- for decades it turned out that restarting with a completely new architecture for each console yielded otherwise unattainable advances in performance-per-dollar, while PC and mobile on the other hand make sacrifices for backwards compatibility. A lot of it though really is the business. Console gaming companies are keeping their libraries locked down to a degree that is unique in the world of media, and a lot of their biggest fans don't care.
I think you're right with the toy comparison, you nailed it. It saddens me that the medium is devalued by what seems to be the majority of people who engage with it. There are 1757 SNES/SFC games, and Nintendo put out a total of 74 on the Wii Virtual Console. As you said, it's locked down, curated, they decide. If I wanted to explore obscure texts from 80 years ago, I could do it - I could go to my library and read it for free - if they don't have it, no problem, they'll have it shipped there from another branch. There are only two types of people who can engage with the full history of gaming - the people who have the money spend $30 (and up) per title, grabbing that limited supply off eBay and elsewhere, and the pirates.

Criterion and FilmStruck's a great example of what love for a medium can lead to, and what's lacking with video games. And along a similar note, it's an example of how a company can be profitable while still doing a social good - I can spend $30 on Criterion releases (I do!), but a sizable selection of their library is available for free through this service https://www.kanopy.com and others.

When people talk about game preservation it's not just about archiving for historians...it's preserving culture in the present. We've lost art and culture to these closed platforms, we remember the titles we remember not just because they're "good" but because they made these corporations the most money so they want to keep it fresh in our collective memories by marketing and selling it to us again and again as disposable goods.
 

D.Lo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,348
Sydney
I still am confused how pirating is any different than buying a used copy of something where the developer gets no money from the purchase. Not saying I condone either, just that I view both as the creators not getting paid for the content they created
The developer got paid at least once for the used copy. The person who bought it also bought the right to re-sell that copy, and no longer has that copy once they have sold it.

The developer got paid zero times for the pirated copy.

And if the person who provided the pirated copy got paid in any way (literally charged for it, or via advertising revenue on their site it was hosted on, which is what this thread is about) then they have financially gained from the work of others immorally and illegally. The developer wasn't paid, but the pirate was, for that developer's work.

Regardless of your feeling on the situation I feel like I can say that defending a corporation rarely results in benefiting the majority of people, and in fact, the opposite is true.
Argue this with examples, don't just make random statements.

This thread is essentially about a criminal enterprise, skimming monetary value from not just huge corporations, but smaller businesses as well. Loveroms (and Emuparadise etc) had DS games on the site that were still for sale at the time of their hosting, which were made by companies of all sizes, including extremely small developers. One of my favourite DS games in Soul Bubbles, which was developed by three people, from a quick archive search it was on Emuparadise, and many others. Shit, in some cases DS roms turned up on these sites BEFORE they were for sale.

If the mafia is on a racket that steals stuff from Microsoft, it doesn't make the mafia okay, and doesn't make it some kind of blanket 'blindly defending corporations' to say the mafia is bad and it was the right thing to do for Microsoft to stop them or sue them.
 
Last edited:

AimLow

Member
Dec 10, 2017
969
Well, Nintendo won't be seeing a dime from me in the near future. Shame. I was planning on buying a Switch and several games. To hell with them.
 

cervanky

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,296
The developer got paid at least once for the used copy. The person who bought it also bought the right to re-sell that copy, and no longer has that copy once they have sold it.

The developer got paid zero times for the pirated copy.

And if the person who provided the pirated copy got paid in any way (literally charged for it, or via advertising revenue on their site it was hosted on, which is what this thread is about) then they have financially gained from the work of others immorally and illegally. The developer wasn't paid, but the pirate was, for that developer's work.
Do you understand why I feel like "developer" is maybe a misnomer, here? It's the corporate body that commissioned the work. When I buy Castlevania from the eShop, do you think the original Konami artists - the level designers, composers, sprite artists, and so on - are getting a commission? Of course not. The morality of this whole thing is so skewed, this whole system protects corporations, not artists. If the artists happen to receive a residual, that's just a specific case because of how that contract was designed or the nature of their specific company - obviously more often the case with indie games, or a one-time bonus structure.

You're gonna get no disagreement with your use of the word illegal. It's just when you're saying immoral, well - it's also immoral that when I buy an old game from Nintendo, the artists who made it don't get paid, Nintendo the corporation that owns the IP gets paid. Sure, they have the right to profit from the art they commissioned, but the whole system's immorally rigged to begin with in my eyes. So I know you're technically right to use the word "developer", but we both know you can't use the word "artist" to describe who's being paid when we're talking about legacy Nintendo titles.

That doesn't have to do with piracy, really, but it's why I don't really care if Nintendo gets their money or not when selling legacy titles. I can't "empathize" with Nintendo the corporation when I know the artists almost certainly aren't getting anything. I still buy them, I know work went into them in the marketing department, distribution, and so on, but I also know that my money isn't being distributed fairly among those who worked on it.
 

Deleted member 43

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
9,271
I still am confused how pirating is any different than buying a used copy of something where the developer gets no money from the purchase. Not saying I condone either, just that I view both as the creators not getting paid for the content they created
There former is the legal transfer of a physical piece of property.

The latter is mass distribution of content that was never paid for.
 

Deleted member 43

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
9,271
Do you understand why I feel like "developer" is maybe a misnomer, here? It's the corporate body that commissioned the work. When I buy Castlevania from the eShop, do you think the original Konami artists - the level designers, composers, sprite artists, and so on - are getting a commission? Of course not. The morality of this whole thing is so skewed, this whole system protects corporations, not artists. If the artists happen to receive a residual, that's just a specific case because of how that contract was designed or the nature of their specific company - obviously more often the case with indie games.

You're gonna get no disagreement with your use of the word illegal. It's just when you're saying immoral, well - it's also immoral that when I buy an old game from Nintendo, the artists who made it don't get paid, Nintendo the corporation that owns the IP gets paid. Sure, they have the right to profit from the art they commissioned, but the whole system's immorally rigged to begin with in my eyes. So I know you're technically right to use the word "developer", but we both know you can't use the word "artist" to describe who's being paid when we're talking about legacy Nintendo titles.

That doesn't have to do with piracy specifically, but it's why I don't really care if Nintendo gets their money or not when selling legacy titles. I can't "empathize" with Nintendo the corporation when I know the artists almost certainly aren't getting anything.
Companies pay to have games developed, pay the salary of the developers, many of whom often do have profit sharing, stock grants, and/or bonuses.

Your analysis is overly simplistic and not in-line with reality.
 

cervanky

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,296
Companies pay to have games developed, pay the salary of the developers, many of whom often do have profit sharing, stock grants, and/or bonuses.

Your analysis is overly simplistic and not in-line with reality.
No, my analysis is socialist. Capitalism is wrong, but that's the world we live in. Artists are exploited. They aren't paid enough. I know that's the deal we all make, but it's not an ethical deal.
 

D.Lo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,348
Sydney
Companies pay to have games developed, pay the salary of the developers, many of whom often do have profit sharing, stock grants, and/or bonuses.

Your analysis is overly simplistic and not in-line with reality.
Yes exactly. Their jobs existed and they were paid salaries on the basis that Konami would have a game they could sell for as long as copyright was maintained on it. That same pool of developers also made something like 100 other Famicom/NES games, some of which likely lost money for Konami, but Konami invested in them to try and build things they could make money out of on that basis, and they did.

When I buy an NES title from Nintendo's eShop, that money goes to everyone still living who worked on it, proportional to their contribution to the finished work?
If you want to get all bolshy about this and 'fuck the corporations and capitalism', supporting a criminal enterprise that profited from pirated works, just because they stole from corporations, is a very strange place to start.

I'm very much a socialist type myself, but you're avoiding the actual point at hand here: We are discussing a conflict between a company why created something, and another company who stole what they created and profited from it. Who is the better party in this particular situation?
 

Deleted member 43

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
9,271
When I buy an NES title from Nintendo's eShop, that money goes to everyone still living who worked on it, proportional to their contribution to the finished work?
No, it goes back to the company who financed the game, pays the salaries of its workers, positively effects the stock price from which employees benefit, and yes, some can go directly to individuals based on royalty and employment agreements and bonus structures.

When you pirate games you are absolutely not contributing to individual humans monetary compensation. To say otherwise is, again, factually wrong.
 
Last edited:

AppleKid

Member
Feb 21, 2018
2,529
The developer got paid at least once for the used copy.
Ah, this line of thinking actually makes a lot of sense in terms of where I was coming from. So I guess it's like paying someone who paid the developer vs not paying someone who likely didn't (and could be profiting through ad rev)
 

D.Lo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,348
Sydney
Ah, this line of thinking actually makes a lot of sense in terms of where I was coming from. So I guess it's like paying someone who paid the developer vs not paying someone who likely didn't (and could be profiting through ad rev)
Yes, it's one of the same arguments for the value physical media too (and a major reason Sony won this generation of home consoles vs Microsoft's original plan).

When I buy a physical PS4 game, I have the right to resell it, and gain back some, maybe all, and (in some rarer circumstances) maybe even more than I paid for it. That right is built-in to the purchase price for me.

From Sony's perspective, there is still some value in being able to re-sell games, as I'm likely to spend that money back into the gaming economy - which is what is most common, people trading games for new ones. It is however something the companies are slowly pushing away with really big pushes to digital, and digital only content. But for any previously purchased games, that right remains as part of the original agreement between the publisher and the purchser (and indeed any subsequent purchser of that copy.

Piracy? There's no agreement or right of any sort handed down by the publisher, ever.
 

AdolRed

Banned
Jan 12, 2018
269
United States
User warned: Don't bump old threads to insult other users
The developer got paid at least once for the used copy. The person who bought it also bought the right to re-sell that copy, and no longer has that copy once they have sold it.

The developer got paid zero times for the pirated copy.

And if the person who provided the pirated copy got paid in any way (literally charged for it, or via advertising revenue on their site it was hosted on, which is what this thread is about) then they have financially gained from the work of others immorally and illegally. The developer wasn't paid, but the pirate was, for that developer's work.

Argue this with examples, don't just make random statements.

This thread is essentially about a criminal enterprise, skimming monetary value from not just huge corporations, but smaller businesses as well. Loveroms (and Emuparadise etc) had DS games on the site that were still for sale at the time of their hosting, which were made by companies of all sizes, including extremely small developers. One of my favourite DS games in Soul Bubbles, which was developed by three people, from a quick archive search it was on Emuparadise, and many others. Shit, in some cases DS roms turned up on these sites BEFORE they were for sale.

If the mafia is on a racket that steals stuff from Microsoft, it doesn't make the mafia okay, and doesn't make it some kind of blanket 'blindly defending corporations' to say the mafia is bad and it was the right thing to do for Microsoft to stop them or sue them.

How's that boot taste dude
 

kyoya

Member
Dec 26, 2017
118
I'm on board with the fact that LoveROMS.com and LoveRETRO.co ripped off game developers and publishers large and small. I would imagine that Nintendo first sent them a cease and desist order, they had a chance to shut everything down before getting sued.