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Mifec

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,742
Austin Walker recently talked about how he would not debate with known insividuals so that they would not benefit from his platform.

I think that's a pretty solid approach.
I think it's a really cowardly approach.

There are people who watch these discussions who are 100% entrenched on either side of the people involved they won't change their mind, that's why you aim for the ones in the middle who when they are exposed to people's arguments about hateful/toxic/damaging ideas being debunked/beaten will be spared from going alt right/gg and so on. Hell you might even grab some from the actual bad side and convert them.

Now maybe Austin Walker doesn't want to put the effort in to educate himself enough to be able to defeat arguments/stances from those people and thus thinks it's irresponsible to platform them and that's perfectly fine. Saying platforming people with horrible views only leads to them benefiting is 100% wrong if you put in minimal effort.
 

Vic_Viper

Thanked By SGM
Member
Oct 25, 2017
29,047
No I'm sorry I'm also watching US based ones and their comments section are again fairly clean .
YY just doesn't want to clean up because he thinks there is no cleaning to do. He agree with those fuckos to an extent
"How does the extent go ?"
Honestly I don't give a shit he's got homophobic gators in his community they're not called out on their BS
I was a viewer , I'll always be bisexual (because being bi is not a choice you're born that way) he doesn't want to clean then I'm out ...
It's that fucking simple really.
Ok, my bad. I probably should have specified more that I havent seen more than a handful of his videos since Kojima left Konami, and even then I never read the comments section.

All I was saying was that I think this is a larger problem on YouTube, and not just on his channel. I completely agree that he needs to address these shitty people. I dont want anyone to think that im saying its ok or im defending YongYea for not doing anything about it.
 

Darryl M R

The Spectacular PlayStation-Man
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,721
1. i agree, he should close his comment section for his news videos, thou that imho might hurt his views.
2. this is hard for me to answer as i'm not browsing trough Kotaku comments anymore. So yeah, that might be my mistake.
3. imo just simple controversial topic can bring you lots of haters, that's why there no hate in his trailer analysis, and theories videos.

what i don't get is how rereading some articles, tweets on video can bring you haters that represent who you are?
1. I'm glad we agree on this
2. When you can give it a look. I notice hateful comments that are against articles
3. It has been posted that he adds his own twist to what he is covering, and EVERYONE has a bias. It is important to acknowledge your bias (let's say pro-consumer) rather than pretend that you do not have one and your arguments are merely superior (he adds arguments to his reporting)

If we are to believe that he adds his own twist to his reporting by how he talks about recent events AND by what he chooses to discuss, we can then hold him accountable for those who spread hate in his comments.
 

Ichi

Banned
Sep 10, 2018
1,997
Austin Walker recently talked about how he would not debate with known insividuals so that they would not benefit from his platform.

I think that's a pretty solid approach. But I am also glad that Jason took the time to directly call out a bigoted fan base.

well Austin Walker does not need people like Yong Yea when Waypoint itself is a harbinger of misplaced criticism on the other end of the spectrum. While Yong Yea (and Sterling, and others) pretty much just regurgitate what they find online and just make a video out of it, Waypoint is too busy finding faults in games where there is none, with hits like, "spidey is set in new york how come it doesn't call out trump..", amongst others.
 

Darryl M R

The Spectacular PlayStation-Man
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,721
I think it's a really cowardly approach.

There are people who watch these discussions who are 100% entrenched on either side of the people involved they won't change their mind, that's why you aim for the ones in the middle who when they are exposed to people's arguments about hateful/toxic/damaging ideas being debunked/beaten will be spared from going alt right/gg and so on. Hell you might even grab some from the actual bad side and convert them.

Now maybe Austin Walker doesn't want to put the effort in to educate himself enough to be able to defeat arguments/stances from those people and thus thinks it's irresponsible to platform them and that's perfectly fine. Saying platforming people with horrible views only leads to them benefiting is 100% wrong if you put in minimal effort.
There's a reason Era won't promote threads of Boogie or Colin M. There is nothing cowardly about choosing not to engage with someone who you are confident will not be having a good faith discussion. The logic is pretty simple: It is not worth the risk of having your bystander become enticed by hateful rhetoric by exposing them to it on your platform.

The concern isn't to bring people from the other side to see your point of view.
 

OrdinaryPrime

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
11,042
well Austin Walker does not need people like Yong Yea when Waypoint itself is a harbinger of misplaced criticism on the other end of the spectrum. While Yong Yea (and Sterling, and others) pretty much just regurgitate what they find online and just make a video out of it, Waypoint is too busy finding faults in games where there is none, with hits like, "spidey is set in new york how come it doesn't call out trump..", amongst others.

When you say Waypoint, are you referring to a particular writer/reviewer?

And implying there aren't faults in Spider-Man is silly btw.
 

Mr Delabee

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,163
UK
What would anyone here do if they were YT content creators and one day they found out that a good number of the people that comment and like their videos are expressing a racist, full of hatred, behaviour?

It is not enough to not be a racist, neo nazi or biggot, you should call out your audience when they are behaving as one. It is that simple.

If I'm being honest something happened to me when I was gaining an audience on twitter, I was totally ashamed and I couldn't believe someone had said what they did, directly mentioning me and the woman involved on twitter.

On international women's day I decided I would retweet/like only women's tweets and work for the entire day. So I retweeted a tweet about a book store that turned over all the spines of books from male authors, he took some kind of offence to this and the following is a direct quote which I was @'d by this individual.

Will all feminists kill themselves to highlight the suicide "gender" gap?

In this case the women who worked in the book store was directly mentioned, so she saw a gamer tweet that in reply to her tweet, which was simply highlighting that the ratio of male authors was so much more higher than female authors. I mean how do you even react when you get a tweet like that?

All I could do was apologise, say that these views do not represent or reflect me and that I had blocked/muted this person.

For me that was a big eye opener especially trying to get into something gaming related AND gain an audience. I understood that I had complete control over who followed me, maybe if I had taken more notice of this individual earlier and blocked them, they would have never seen my tweet and caused the issue in the first place.

When you get put into a category by those specific people and you're happy to stay in that category with all those types of people you're not doing yourself any favours at all.
 

TheSyldat

Banned
Nov 4, 2018
1,127
Ok, my bad. I probably should have specified more that I havent seen more than a handful of his videos since Kojima left Konami, and even then I never read the comments section.

All I was saying was that I think this is a larger problem on YouTube, and not just on his channel. I completely agree that he needs to address these shitty people. I dont want anyone to think that im saying its ok or im defending YongYea for not doing anything about it.
Don't worry I ain't mad at ya .
I'm just beyond frustrated to see people believe all those lazy video producers who are saying that "moderating on youtube is undoable" this is just plain and factualy wrong others have done it succesfully and still maintain a clean healthy comment section . If others can pull it off , then it means the others are just not doing their part.

And when Jason calls him out on that during the convo all he has to give is the good old bullshit "I'm not responsible for the others" ...
 

Chuchubabe

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
408
well Austin Walker does not need people like Yong Yea when Waypoint itself is a harbinger of misplaced criticism on the other end of the spectrum. While Yong Yea (and Sterling, and others) pretty much just regurgitate what they find online and just make a video out of it, Waypoint is too busy finding faults in games where there is none, with hits like, "spidey is set in new york how come it doesn't call out trump..", amongst others.

You hit the nail in the head, two diferent spectrums both platforms doing the same kinda of thing, finding cheap ways for gamers to rage and be outraged.

About the topic , jason with the tweet just after talking and doing the video with yong proves to me one thing, to me his objective was always to harm yong youtube channel and paint the dude in bad light. Who gives a shit about comments from youtube from all places and the comment he posted is not even remotly close to being the most offensive shit you see on youtube comment section or any comment section out there. Yong was always polite to jason to be honest. Its so petty IMO.
Yong seems like a better target to jason, lets see him calling out Jim Sterling, way worse provocateur than Yong.
 
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jschreier

Press Sneak Fuck
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
1,091
One thing I do regret is accidentally steering the conversation to YongYea's comments instead of the video itself, which I think tackles some really important issues and hopefully has made it clear to Yong why making videos like "Anthem Producer Blames Zelda For Andromeda's Failure" can be so harmful.
 

JakeNoseIt

Catch My Drift
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
4,535
There is something coded in our language. You can see it from the President of the United States to this guy. You can argue that your language isn't, let's say, racist, but the racists believe that you are saying something racist. In 2018 you needed to be able to change your language. You need to be able to talk in a way that isn't giving a nod to hateful people and if you can't do that, then I would say you are part of the problem.

A lot of people in this topic seem to be confused about systems of oppression, but I want to remind everyone that they are that, they are systems. The perpetuation of racism doesn't require intention or even hate. Because racism is a system, if you are benefiting from something like a largely bigoted YouTube audience, then somebody is being oppressed because of that relationship. If YongYea doesn't do anything, but continues to benefit from that relationship, then yes, he is part of the problem.

There is this notion that the only reason people behave in a prejudiced way is because we haven't explained to them how that works. Maybe we haven't explained to them that the actions they are taking or the words they are using are oppressing some people and benefiting others. I appreciate what Jason is doing here, he is operating under that assumption.

It takes a strong person to do that. It takes a strong person to have that kind of patience and want to educate, rather than dismiss. Either way, YongYea now has the knowledge and facts he should need to do something. If he continues with the audience that he has cultivated, then we can definitely say he is choosing ignorance because of the way that relationship benefits him. He is operating and perpetuating a system of oppression.

I hope something changes.
 

Ralemont

Member
Jan 3, 2018
4,508
that's why you aim for the ones in the middle who when they are exposed to people's arguments about hateful/toxic/damaging ideas being debunked/beaten will be spared from going alt right/gg and so on. Hell you might even grab some from the actual bad side and convert them.

It would be nice if we could assume logic trumped all in swaying someone to your side, but I truly believe most people don't function that way. That's why politics is dominated by performers and not philosophers.
 

m_dorian

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,403
Athens, Greece
One thing I do regret is accidentally steering the conversation to YongYea's comments instead of the video itself, which I think tackles some really important issues and hopefully has made it clear to Yong why making videos like "Anthem Producer Blames Zelda For Andromeda's Failure" can be so harmful.

This was going to happen some time though due to the disgusting nature of many comments there. You only made it happen sooner. And, i am still at work not able to listen to the discussion.
 

Mobyduck

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,100
Brazil
One thing I do regret is accidentally steering the conversation to YongYea's comments instead of the video itself, which I think tackles some really important issues and hopefully has made it clear to Yong why making videos like "Anthem Producer Blames Zelda For Andromeda's Failure" can be so harmful.

I think your tweet after the video kinda removed all the attention from the discussion proper and served as an easy "get out of jail free" card for Yong and his viewers. You are not wrong that his viewer's comments reflect poorly on him, but in the end all they will take away from this is that you think he is a nazi apologist, when his viewers see him as a defender of gamers' rights in a world where publishers are trying everything to nickle and dime them.
 

TheSyldat

Banned
Nov 4, 2018
1,127
One thing I do regret is accidentally steering the conversation to YongYea's comments instead of the video itself, which I think tackles some really important issues and hopefully has made it clear to Yong why making videos like "Anthem Producer Blames Zelda For Andromeda's Failure" can be so harmful.
Sorry but I do think that on the contrary the comment section and how he refuses to clean it up isn't paratextual , quite the opposite it's an integral and legitimate way to judge whether or not what you guys discussed together got through his skull and sorry but as far as we can judge no it didn't get through.
Sure it's dismaying to see that you wasted your time for all of us but hey at least you tried and , did your best to stay kind and gentle...

Now that your gentleness has been applied either he gets his act together or he gets nothing but scorn.

And sorry but the amount of barrels that I could fill with vitriol just by plunging a siphon in it is innumerable at this point and highlights how much nothing was learned on his part.
 

Igniz12

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,437
I think it's a really cowardly approach.

There are people who watch these discussions who are 100% entrenched on either side of the people involved they won't change their mind, that's why you aim for the ones in the middle who when they are exposed to people's arguments about hateful/toxic/damaging ideas being debunked/beaten will be spared from going alt right/gg and so on. Hell you might even grab some from the actual bad side and convert them.

Now maybe Austin Walker doesn't want to put the effort in to educate himself enough to be able to defeat arguments/stances from those people and thus thinks it's irresponsible to platform them and that's perfectly fine. Saying platforming people with horrible views only leads to them benefiting is 100% wrong if you put in minimal effort.
I think the Waypoint people know that giving these kinda of people airtime will sap too much energy and also it will not be in the interest of their community to do so. For them, Waypoint could be a refuge from the trash that is out there and when you spend all them time giving that trash airtime and energy instead of doing stuff that your own community wants then I think they will not be doing right by the people that follow them.

Also I don't think Austin Walker or anyone that takes the stance they do is obliged to go out and deal with garbage out there in the first place either. Trying to convert ppl is all well and good but the energy and effort required will be more than what little good would come out of it.
 
Oct 27, 2017
9,427
Sorry but I do think that on the contrary the comment section and how he refuses to clean it up isn't paratextual , quite the opposite it's an integral and legitimate way to judge whether or not what you guys discussed together got through his skull and sorry but as far as we can judge no it didn't get through.
Sure it's dismaying to see that you wasted your time for all of us but hey at least you tried and , did your best to stay kind and gentle...

Now that your gentleness has been applied either he gets his act together or he gets nothing but scorn.

And sorry but the amount of barrels that I could fill with vitriol just by plunging a siphon in it is innumerable at this point and highlights how much nothing was learned on his part.

I thought they had a good discussion.
 

klastical

Member
Oct 29, 2017
4,712
I am sorry my friend but you defend racism and racists even if you do -naively- think that there is grade to hate. There is none. Once you hate, you hate plain and simple.
Anyone that "treats Jewish people differently" because they are Jewish has flicked the switch. I will not congratulate them for their "mild" racism just because, at present, they do not wish all of them to be dead.

They crossed over therefore they are racists. They hate Jews, they are following the nazi path.

Nor do i not consider a pregnant woman as one because "she is on her second or third month", this is bullcrap. She is pregnant and as you probably know, decent people treat pregnant women with more care and tenderness than normal.

Also, there is a significant waste of time discussing any difference between racism and nazism in regard on the topic at hand. They are both excrement, green or red excrement does not make any difference at all.
If we were on discussing the expressions of hatred as perceived by the societies through the ages, we could have had that discussion just for passing time.

Your right about one thing. This conversation is a waste of time. There are degrees to everything. Ironically you want to let your blind hatred shield you from that.

Nah. I'm pretty sure they're all still pieces of shit. Doesn't matter how big the pile is. Sorry.

Never said they went. Literally called them all trash.
 

m_dorian

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,403
Athens, Greece
Your right about one thing. This conversation is a waste of time. There are degrees to everything. Ironically you want to let your blind hatred shield you from that.



Never said they went. Literally called them all trash.

When a discussion revolves around how bad this racist or this antisemite is it loses it meaning when the only thing that matters here is that those people are racists and antisemites, nazis.

And YOU -naively- defend them.

Because "degrees".

I do not feel hatred for racists, neo nazis and the lot but huge sadness instead because there are so many things one can do to have a purpose in life and they chose to spent their time hating.

lol you accuse me of blind hatred because i am calling the racists as racists and the nazis as nazis because some of them might be not as fanatic racists and nazis, is this a joke?
 
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Salty Rice

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,612
Pancake City
I really dont get why the big focus here are the youtube comments instead of the video itself.

Its not like channels like for example IGN have much better comment sections and we dont act like they are supporting the shit that is going on there sometimes.

If anything you give these idiots in the comments more attention than they deserve.
 

Drey1082

Member
Oct 27, 2017
714
I think it's a really cowardly approach.

There are people who watch these discussions who are 100% entrenched on either side of the people involved they won't change their mind, that's why you aim for the ones in the middle who when they are exposed to people's arguments about hateful/toxic/damaging ideas being debunked/beaten will be spared from going alt right/gg and so on. Hell you might even grab some from the actual bad side and convert them.

Now maybe Austin Walker doesn't want to put the effort in to educate himself enough to be able to defeat arguments/stances from those people and thus thinks it's irresponsible to platform them and that's perfectly fine. Saying platforming people with horrible views only leads to them benefiting is 100% wrong if you put in minimal effort.

I know this is an unpopular opinion here, but I agree with you. Good on Jason for trying to change minds and bring his perspective to a new audience.
 

Dark1x

Digital Foundry
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
3,530
Is it the concept of a non-toxic youtube comments section that unbelievable to you?
Yes. I pour my heart and soul into videos that I deeply care about. Focus on positive stories or cool things. The comments are generally horrible and it's super deflating.

At least they're typically console warriors being idiots. There are some good folks that comment. There are a few others, though, that just kill my enthusiasm.
 
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Darryl M R

The Spectacular PlayStation-Man
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,721
Yes. I pour my heart and soul into videos that I deeply care about. Focus on positive stories or cool things. The comments are generally horrible and it's super deflating.

At least they're typically console warriors being idiots. There are some good folks that comment. There are a few others, though, that just kill my enthusiasm.
As a content maker, how would closing off your comment section affect your views?

It would be hard to build a real community, but do you believe your comment section helps retain viewers?
 
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Dark1x

Digital Foundry
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
3,530
As a content maker, how would closing off your comment section affect your views?

It would be hard to build a real community, but do you believe our comment section helps retain viewers?
I think it would hurt views a lot but it's not my call. We don't have the manpower to moderate either.
 

Drey1082

Member
Oct 27, 2017
714
Yes. I pour my heart and soul into videos that I deeply care about. Focus on positive stories or cool things. The comments are generally horrible and it's super deflating.

At least they're typically console warriors being idiots. There are some good folks that comment. There are a few others, though, that just kill my enthusiasm.

I don't know how anyone who creates content stomachs YouTube comments, social media, message boards, etc. I would avoid all of it like the plauge.

Have you guys discussed turning off comments? What would be the downside? Your particular brand of content is ripe for toxicity in the comments, since it provides direct ammo to both sides of this silly console war mentality. I love your videos but I don't think I've ever ventured into the comments, just because I can hear them in my head the moment you compare resolutions or frame-rates on one console vs. another. I'd be interested in the business reasons for leaving them open?

None of that happened today I assure you.

I don't know, even if you argue most people who watch this video came into it with a strong opinion behind Jason or YongYa, I would find it difficult to believe that not one person watched that video with an open mind.
 

Jecht

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,650
Yes. I pour my heart and soul into videos that I deeply care about. Focus on positive stories or cool things. The comments are generally horrible and it's super deflating.

At least they're typically console warriors being idiots. There are some good folks that comment. There are a few others, though, that just kill my enthusiasm.

That's not the same as having Nazis in the comments though.
 

TheSyldat

Banned
Nov 4, 2018
1,127
Your particular brand of content is ripe for toxicity in the comments, since it provides direct ammo to both sides of this silly console war mentality.
This just this
The reason why your comments are by and large a trash fire is because your content does fan the flames.
Sorry not sorry that's just true.
Don't get me wrong I adore nerdin out on DF videos , but your content is litteraly a napalm bomb designed for self ignition ...
Heck even on auto filters to the maximum with auto trashing of anything that got flagged I'm pretty sure that some would go through anyway...
 

RedMercury

Blue Venus
Member
Dec 24, 2017
17,655
Jesus, just look at the comments on YongYea's video, this guy and his community are completely toxic, it's sickening. This guy should take a good look at himself and the hate he's cultivated.
Your right about one thing. This conversation is a waste of time. There are degrees to everything. Ironically you want to let your blind hatred shield you from that.
People should hate nazis and racists dude, it isn't "blind" and you framing it that way is just terrible.
 

m_dorian

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,403
Athens, Greece
Just saw the interview.

Very interesting one, was done in a very civil, respectful and civil manner, it was very ok.

The sooner Yong Yea realises some of his audience are a burden he needs to free himself from, the better content he will produce and the better person he will be.

I am waiting from Schreier's report about D4, with curiosity.
 

leburn98

Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,637
That's not the same as having Nazis in the comments though.
There are plenty of toxic, homophobic and racist comments in the comments of a DF video. These comments below are from their latest [4K] Battlefield 5: Xbox One vs X Graphics Comparison. (Note: I am not blaming DF for such behavior in the comments, merely pointing out that no comment section is safe from such behavior)
wCycUcy.jpg
 
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klastical

Member
Oct 29, 2017
4,712
When a discussion revolves around how bad this racist or this antisemite is it loses it meaning when the only thing that matters here is that those people are racists and antisemites, nazis.

And YOU -naively- defend them.

Because "degrees".

I do not feel hatred for racists, neo nazis and the lot but huge sadness instead because there are so many things one can do to have a purpose in life and they chose to spent their time hating.

lol you accuse me of blind hatred because i am calling the racists as racists and the nazis as nazis because some of them might be not as fanatic racists and nazis, is this a joke?

You to need to realize the difference between someone who crosses the street because they think the black guy walking towards them is going to mug them and someone who is in the kkk. You cant just lump all of these people into a group and pretend they are all the same. That's just plainly ignorant. Your not going to convince the first group of people that racism is wrong by calling them kkk members.
 

Ichi

Banned
Sep 10, 2018
1,997
You to need to realize the difference between someone who crosses the street because they think the black guy walking towards them is going to mug them and someone who is in the kkk. You cant just lump all of these people into a group and pretend they are all the same. That's just plainly ignorant. Your not going to convince the first group of people that racism is wrong by calling them kkk members.

lol they might as well be in the kkk.
 

ElBoxy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,134
I think it's a really cowardly approach.

There are people who watch these discussions who are 100% entrenched on either side of the people involved they won't change their mind, that's why you aim for the ones in the middle who when they are exposed to people's arguments about hateful/toxic/damaging ideas being debunked/beaten will be spared from going alt right/gg and so on. Hell you might even grab some from the actual bad side and convert them.

Now maybe Austin Walker doesn't want to put the effort in to educate himself enough to be able to defeat arguments/stances from those people and thus thinks it's irresponsible to platform them and that's perfectly fine. Saying platforming people with horrible views only leads to them benefiting is 100% wrong if you put in minimal effort.
I would rather Austen, and anyone in general, not debate people like Colin cuz it's a waste of time. You can't debate when one side is not going to provide a reasonable opinion. You're just talking to yourself at that point.
 
OP
OP
Lukemia SL

Lukemia SL

Member
Jan 30, 2018
9,384
There are plenty of toxic, homophobic and racist comments in the comments of a DF video. These comments below are from their latest [4K] Battlefield 5: Xbox One vs X Graphics Comparison. (Note: I am not blaming DF for such behavior in the comments, merely pointing out that no comment section is safe from such behavior)
wCycUcy.jpg

Yeah DF's comment section is a sight to behold. It's one of the best ways to make yourself go mental.
 

Jecht

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,650
There are plenty of toxic, homophobic and racist comments in the comments of a DF video. These comments below are from their latest [4K] Battlefield 5: Xbox One vs X Graphics Comparison. (Note: I am not blaming DF for such behavior in the comments, merely pointing out that no comment section is safe from such behavior)

I obviously wasn't saying there weren't any to be found on DF videos, just that there's a difference between regular console warring shitposts and hate rhetoric.

Also to your point in parentheses it does seem like a double standard to hold one person accountable for their audience in the comments and not another. Especially when one is independent and the other is a site that employs many people.