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darz1

Member
Dec 18, 2017
7,121
Anywyas I guess it's for me to say that I'm dissapointed how Nintendo handle selling their own backlog of games, and I guess let's just agree to disagree. I'm not a fan of rebuilt gamesni already own so if you guys are a fan of this great for you. I'll happily dump my ROMs and replay my games on the latest systems.
If you have already purchased the games you want to play and can dump the ROMs yourself to continue playing them, thats a completely different topic to this thread, which is about a couple who were hosting pirated ROMs on their website for others to download.

Theres a big difference both morally and legally in making a copy of something you own for your own personal use and making copies of something you own or dont own available for others to use.
 

Ninjadom

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,213
London, UK
All great posts. Stem and other PC services became more convinient than pirating PC games. iTunes and Spotify became more convenient than pirating music. Netflix and other streaming services became more convenient than pirating movies.

But pirating ROMs is still more convenient than the hoops you have to jump through to get to probably thousands of old console games. It may not be right and it may not be legal, but lots of people are still going to find the most convenient solution. ROM sites are going to keep popping up as long as this is the case. Nintendo may be within its right to shut down ROM sites like this, but it's not going to be the most effective solution to clamping down on piracy, and that's what matters.



Even those retro offerings are pitiful compared to what would probably get a lot of people to stop pirating ROMs. The fact that other game companies don't come close is just a sign of how pitiful the whole the console game industry is when it comes to making old content available. I'd say Microsoft is doing the best job right now.

The games you can get on Switch and 3DS are still a drop in the bucket compared to the classics people want and are getting from ROM sites. The Wii U is no longer really supported, you can't add funds to buy games on the WIii store anymore (not to mention how obsolete that whole system is), and the Mini consoles only offer around 60 games total.

The ideal solution from Nintendo would probably be a library closer to the size of the original Wii virtual console, but offered through a more modern digital distribution system with more reasonable prices. That's not even getting into how much more aggressive PC digital distribution has been for years now. Really, the model for everyone else as far as gaming is concerned should be how Steam and GOG handle classic games.

The Wii U may not be supported on a major scale but it still gets new eShop releases and earlier this year Konami were still adding to the PC Engine Virtual Console. Plus the eShop is still fully alive and functioning and there's plenty and plenty of retro games available on it right from NES up to Nintendo Wii (Resident Evil 4 and Super Mario Galaxy 2 are on it). I would go as far as to say that the Wii U is the best machine today somebody can own if they want to play a huge selection of Japanese retro games. Also, the 3DS Virtual Console is going strong and has Gameboy, NES and SNES games on that service.

While many people are disappointed with what is happening on the Switch right now, Nintendo have still played a very big (maybe the biggest) role in making retro games available to customers.
 

RedSwirl

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,101
The Wii U may not be supported on a major scale but it still gets new eShop releases and earlier this year Konami were still adding to the PC Engine Virtual Console. Plus the eShop is still fully alive and functioning and there's plenty and plenty of retro games available on it right from NES up to Nintendo Wii (Resident Evil 4 and Super Mario Galaxy 2 are on it). I would go as far as to say that the Wii U is the best machine today somebody can own if they want to play a huge selection of Japanese retro games. Also, the 3DS Virtual Console is going strong and has Gameboy, NES and SNES games on that service.

While many people are disappointed with what is happening on the Switch right now, Nintendo have still played a very big (maybe the biggest) role in making retro games available to customers.

I just wish there was some assurance this would continue on to the Switch outside the paltry selection of games attached to the online service. The biggest issue is how much Nintendo failed to carry the VC library between sets of hardware. What I really want is the shit I paid for on the Wii to be on my 3DS or Switch. This isn't like trying to get PS3 games to run on PS4. This is just emulation of 8 and 16-bit games.

I actually think the system Sony had going on the PS3, PSP, and Vita is better than Nintendo's service-wise, Sony just didn't have access to the library Nintendo does. You bought a PS1 game once (for $5 or $10) and generally could play it on any of those three devices, plus the PlayStation TV. Even better is how Sony often targeted games that had massive mark-ups at retail. The Japanese selection was ridiculously massive compared to the western game selections. The bigger tragedy is Sony has brought none of this to PS4. I don't know about most people, but doing so (and also bringing in the PS2 Classics that were on PS3), would've influenced my decision to get a PS4 much earlier.
 

doragon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
400
Yes there is, you said roms (inferring, rom distribution sites) were necessary for translations. They are not. I have a translated Famicom Rom I ripped myself, no piracy needed.
I didn't say that. I said that without ROMs they wouldn't be a thing, or at the very least not the thing they've become historically. I'm not talking about translations only, even if you insist in exclusively mentioning those. If each and every person had to dump the ROM of a game before applying a patch, specially in the 90's and early 00's, the great majority of fan projects related to ROMs would have died before arrival. Like that wouldn't have been expensive and oppressive as hell back in the day. You have mentioned a favorable example, and it's $70... now. I mean, really?

That's a big reason in favor of it being an extremely unrealistic and out of touch point of view. Not to mention that example was only for one game console!

Boo fucking hoo at 'unrealistic' It's unrealistic for me to have a new Ferrari, but if I want one without stealing it I have to pay what it costs.
How do you enforce "anyone who wants to play a fan translation, mod, or anything ROM-related must dump the ROM themselves first"? How do you even enforce it?

How is it that fear-mongering regarding movies and music piracy amounted to nothing, but legitimately better offerings like Spotify and Netflix completely changed everything for the better? How could all those restrictive, intimidation-driven, and short-sighted tactics possibly fail? And how is it that they haven't eradicated piracy in videogames yet, and multiplied sales exponentially...?

Intellectual property laws.
Show me the specific parts where such scenarios are penalized, then.

The unauthorised copy
And who is supposed to authorize that, exactly? Dumping a ROM is supposedly a right, but sharing it with a single person is "unauthorized"? Even if that person has the game too?

If you can't tell a difference well I have no idea what to say, as they are clearly different, one involves distribution of an unauthorised copy to those who never paid for the game.
You didn't understand what I said. How are you supposed to tell, if every "ROM distribution site" were to disappear, that a ROM that someone has is one that has been dumped by themselves, or what ROMs are borrowed from another person, or how many ROMs are being shared privately, including uploading legit personal ROM dumps to a file hosting site? And then downloaded by people that may or may not have a copy of the game, or a personal dump of their own...?

Of course. And what do you do with those people, now that you confirmed both cases are piracy? This?

Here is another one: If you buy a game, dump a ROM of it yourself, and then you sell the game but keep the ROM for personal use... Is that piracy?

And last but not least, how does it matter to have an authentic copy of an old game, to either justify downloading or having/dumping a ROM of it, if buying it second-hand doesn't even give a single penny to the company or makers of the game? Sometimes, the companies don't even exist anymore! And rereleases in general only cover a small fraction of a game console library. Some physical copies of old games have their prices skyrocket. And sadly, having a game since childhood or its original release doesn't give any more money to the respective company or authors just by having it... or by dumping a single copy of it, that you don't share or let be played by anyone but you.

Who is being benefited by this persecution and ostracism regarding ROMs...?

And again, I'm 100% against making money off illicitly distributing others' work.
 
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D.Lo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,348
Sydney
Having read through this thread I have learned a few things about video games.

If I want to play a game and do not agree with the:
  • platform it is available on
  • language it is available in
  • distribution method
  • time it is available
  • price it is available for
  • amount the publisher receives from the purchase
then I am justified in downloading a copy off the Internet.
Pretty much summarises everything.
 

KratosEnergyDrink

Using an alt account to circumvent a ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,523
Having read through this thread I have learned a few things about video games.

If I want to play a game and do not agree with the:
  • platform it is available on
  • language it is available in
  • distribution method
  • time it is available
  • price it is available for
  • amount the publisher receives from the purchase
then I am justified in downloading a copy off the Internet.

People wants to feel good about pirating games. They are VERY concerned about preservation...
 

RM8

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,913
JP
While it would be nice, the industry leader is obviously PlayStation. Android, iOS, Kindle, and Steam are kind of their own things. I do applaud Microsoft in working to make their past library available on the Xbox, we will see how long that lasts.



Having read through this thread I have learned a few things about video games.

If I want to play a game and do not agree with the:
  • platform it is available on
  • language it is available in
  • distribution method
  • time it is available
  • price it is available for
  • amount the publisher receives from the purchase
then I am justified in downloading a copy off the Internet.
What I learned from this thread is that some random kid in the (not so distant, maybe) future not being able to play Journey to Silius is a good thing and I should be glad that he can't. Gotcha, little thief! *slaps "preservationist" (lol) THIEF across the face with a legit copy of Metal Storm*
 
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doragon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
400
User Banned (3 Days): Rationalizing piracy
Having read through this thread I have learned a few things about video games.

If I want to play a game and do not agree with the:
  • platform it is available on
  • language it is available in
  • distribution method
  • time it is available
  • price it is available for
  • amount the publisher receives from the purchase
then I am justified in downloading a copy off the Internet.
Not "agreeing" with the language it is available in? Seriously? Not everyone has the luxury of having everything you actually care about already available in a language you understand. And you are telling me every fan translator should have just said "too bad this hasn't been released in my language" and never had translated anything?

And a similar thing could be said about the luxury of having access to something, not months and years late, without losing quality or content, and for a fair price...

EDIT: Last time I checked importing games wasn't piracy. I was using luxury in the sense of "having the privilege of", not "having the money for"...
 
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KtSlime

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,910
Tokyo
Not "agreeing" with the language it is available in? Seriously? Not everyone has the luxury of having everything you actually care about already available in a language you understand. And you are telling me every fan translator should have just said "too bad this hasn't been released in my language" and never had translated anything?

And a similar thing could be said about the luxury of having access to something, not months and years late, without losing quality or content, and for a fair price...

If the fan translator owns a copy, and the player owns a copy, they are not included in that statement. If however, the player opts to just download the rom, because it is more convenient than trying to import it, then the player would be one of those pirates.

Fair price means free right?
 

Hierophant

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,196
Sydney
If the fan translator owns a copy, and the player owns a copy, they are not included in that statement. If however, the player opts to just download the rom, because it is more convenient than trying to import it, then the player would be one of those pirates.

Fair price means free right?
So if you own the physical game cartridge, you're allowed to download the Rom to play a fan translation? Isn't that also just downloading a copy off the internet, thereby indirectly supporting the rom up loaders?
 

D.Lo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,348
Sydney
And a similar thing could be said about the luxury of having access to something, not months and years late, without losing quality or content, and for a fair price...
Your sense of entitlement is breathtaking.

So it costs too much in my country = piracy is okay
It came to my country months/years later = piracy is okay

Games are a luxury item. You need zero games to get by in life. If you can't access a particular game legally because it costs too much for you, there is actually an alternate option to piracy - going without that game.
What I learned from this thread is that some random kid in the (not so distant, maybe) future not being able to play Journey to Silius is a good thing and I should be glad that he can't. Gotcha, little thief! *slaps "preservationist" (lol) THIEF across the face with a legit copy of Metal Storm*
Exactly what level of human tragedy is it that a random kid in the future cannot play Journey to Silius?

If you're thinking about the welfare of kids in the future, their level of access to Journey to Silius should be pretty low on your list of worries.
 

Hierophant

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,196
Sydney
Your sense of entitlement is breathtaking.

So it costs too much in my country = piracy is okay
It came to my country months/years later = piracy is okay

Games are a luxury item. You need zero games to get by in life. If you can't access a particular game legally because it costs too much for you, there is actually an alternate option to piracy - going without that game.

Exactly what level of human tragedy is it that a random kid in the future cannot play Journey to Silius?

If you're thinking about the welfare of kids in the future, their level of access to Journey to Silius should be pretty low on your list of worries.
How is it entitlement for a child living in the third world who wants to play some old GBA games and maybe eke some fun and enjoyment out of their likely crushing grind of a life. These people downloading roms hurts literally nobody.

Your absolutist views on this matter speaks much more to your own personal privilege from being born in the West.
 
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D.Lo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,348
Sydney
How is it entitlement for a child living in the third world who wants to play some old GBA games and maybe eke some fun and enjoyment out of their likely crushing grind of a life. These people downloading roms hurts literally nobody.

Your absolutist views on this matter speaks much more to your own personal privilege from being born in the West.
No. Anyone bringing up a 'child in the third world' example is a weak reframing that uses that child's under-privilege as a proxy to justify piracy as a whole, which is arguing in bad faith in this context.
 

Hierophant

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,196
Sydney
No. Anyone bringing up a 'child in the third world' example is a weak reframing that uses that child's under-privilege as a proxy to justify piracy as a whole, which is arguing in bad faith in this context.
No, as someone who did grow up in a developing country for a portion of his life, I am telling you that your post reeks of telling poor people that can't afford "luxuries" (i.e. any entertainment or anything fun) to piss off if they wanna enjoy the videogames that you personally have easy access to due to winning the genetic lottery and being born in the west. Are poor people not allowed to enjoy videogames too? Or is it a level of entertainment barred off from the proles?
 

oni-link

tag reference no one gets
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,093
UK
No. Anyone bringing up a 'child in the third world' example is a weak reframing that uses that child's under-privilege as a proxy to justify piracy as a whole, which is arguing in bad faith in this context.

The issue is that legally piracy is always wrong, but in some cases it doesn't harm the rights holder, but even when it doesn't, the rights holder is still the rights holder and so you can't just take their stuff

Nintendo didn't lose out on sales from people who downloaded Mother 3 and played it with a fan patch, as they don't sell new copies of the game anyway and didn't launch the game in English speaking regions, but at the same time you can't use that to justify letting people download complete SNES zip files

If you decide to allow an inch people will take a mile, and Nintendo can't afford to ignore the things that don't hurt them because doing so emboldens the case for those who want to take games that will harm them

If they really cared about stopping or even reducing piracy, they'd just sell their old games, shutting sites down as a deterrent is their right, but it's not going to reduce the availability of ROMs or stop anyone who wants to download a ROM for personal use from doing so
 

D.Lo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,348
Sydney
No, as someone who did grow up in a developing country for a portion of his life, I am telling you that your post reeks of telling poor people that can't afford "luxuries" (i.e. any entertainment or anything fun) to piss off if they wanna enjoy the videogames that you personally have easy access to due to winning the genetic lottery and being born in the west. Are poor people not allowed to enjoy videogames too? Or is it a level of entertainment barred off from the proles?
I'm sorry you grew up in an under-privileged place. But
  1. That's simply not what the discussion has been about, that scenario has not been part of the frame of reference, and it was only brought up as a 'whatabout' to rationalise a pro-piracy stance. As such was dismissed by me not because I was dismissing people from developing countries, but dismssing the argument as a misdirection. Look at the context of the post I quoted - saying piracy is justfied if a game is not available 'for a fair price'.
  2. In many developing countries there may not even be intellectual property laws that cover software, and as such copying games may not even be illegal at all.
The issue is that legally piracy is always wrong, but in some cases it doesn't harm the rights holder, but even when it doesn't, the rights holder is still the rights holder and so you can't just take their stuff

Nintendo didn't lose out on sales from people who downloaded Mother 3 and played it with a fan patch, as they don't sell new copies of the game anyway and didn't launch the game in English speaking regions, but at the same time you can't use that to justify letting people download complete SNES zip files

If you decide to allow an inch people will take a mile, and Nintendo can't afford to ignore the things that don't hurt them because doing so emboldens the case for those who want to take games that will harm them

If they really cared about stopping or even reducing piracy, they'd just sell their old games, shutting sites down as a deterrent is their right, but it's not going to reduce the availability of ROMs or stop anyone who wants to download a ROM for personal use from doing so
Pretty much.

But something you've said is way this often slides, which is 'well people are going to pirate anyway, this won't stop them'. As if the fact that people will still pirate anyway is somehow a rationalisation of its morality?

Same with the 'well you're just a corporate apologist' - as if the only way to not be a corporate apologist is to be pro easy-access to pirated goods?
 
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KtSlime

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,910
Tokyo
No, as someone who did grow up in a developing country for a portion of his life, I am telling you that your post reeks of telling poor people that can't afford "luxuries" (i.e. any entertainment or anything fun) to piss off if they wanna enjoy the videogames that you personally have easy access to due to winning the genetic lottery and being born in the west. Are poor people not allowed to enjoy videogames too? Or is it a level of entertainment barred off from the proles?

There are literally tens of thousands of free to play games on the Internet. Children/people deserve some sort of reprieve from their lives, but what justifies playing games that have been illegally copied rather than games that are free?

So if you own the physical game cartridge, you're allowed to download the Rom to play a fan translation? Isn't that also just downloading a copy off the internet, thereby indirectly supporting the rom up loaders?

If you own the physical game, you can use a tool to transfer the data to your computer and play it that way. You could also just print out the translated text, old school style, no patches involved.
 

ShinJohnpv

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,670
Andoird, iOS, Steam, Xbox, Kindle

They seem to be good at this.

Imagine having to rebuy all your ebooks for your new Kindle

Or redownload all your software for your next Samsung phone

Nintendo and Sony are the only outliners. In fact Sony as good at this with PSP and Vita and even PS3 with PS1 Classics. But they dropped the ball this gen.

Android is fucking terrible with this. While yes, all of the games I bought on my first smartphone I can "technically" re-download on my latest smartphone, 98% of them don't work any more. All those Cave vertical shooters I bought are fucking useless now.

And Sony is terrible with the PSP. Last year I bought a PSP3000, to replace my PSP1000, because I wanted the video out. No matter what I do, I can not transfer the license of my digital PSP games to the new system. Be it through my PS3, or on the PC. Because Sony has taken away the ability to activate or deactivate PSPs from one's account. So while yes my physical games I can play on my new PSP, there is no way for me to transfer the license over to my PSP3000 for my digital games.
 

DrROBschiz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,514
I wouldnt mind seeing more countries adopt some sort of laws that allow old creations to enter free public domain as far as access

I just dont know what limit i would impose considering that Nintendo could continue to maoe money indefinitely in the digital and physical space with rereleases

Still its something that should happen so old games can be preserved and enjoyed forever regardless of what companies do in the future
 

oni-link

tag reference no one gets
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,093
UK
I wouldnt mind seeing more countries adopt some sort of laws that allow old creations to enter free public domain as far as access

I just dont know what limit i would impose considering that Nintendo could continue to maoe money indefinitely in the digital and physical space with rereleases

Still its something that should happen so old games can be preserved and enjoyed forever regardless of what companies do in the future

I think if a game hasn't been on sale for 20 years then it should be fair game, unless it's rereleased or available via a digital store front

That'll never happen though
 

The_Ultima

User requested ban
Banned
Nov 15, 2018
195
Germany
lol this thread is kinda amusing and worrying at the same time.

There is zero reason to defend pirating, ZERO. Yes, preservation is important and yes, Nintendo should offer a solution to let people buy and play classics (imo); yet, pirating is still no option.

It isn´t... just, stahp pls
 

RedSwirl

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,101
So now we're getting to a discussion about people in developing countries.

If I'm not mistaken, in most of these countries piracy has been the default way to enjoy video games and other media for decades, to the point where almost nobody buys them legitimately because they either simply aren't available, or are far more expensive than even in North America. Official publishers are making some inroads, but there are still a lot of countries where people basically can't buy legit video games, so probably millions of people there pirate. Emuparadise was started buy a guy in India like 18 years ago right? It's technically illegal, but it's what people do.

Look at China. China isn't allowing new games to be licensed there right now and thus be sold in official Chinese channels, so people in China are just buying games on Steam. If I'm not mistaken that's at least unlawful there, but it's a huge factor in Steam's growth right now.

A better example is Poland. 20 or 30 years ago everyone there pirated because that's all they could do to get games. The solution that fixed the problem was GOG actually selling a bunch of old games, and often translating games into Polish.

Again, Nintendo is within its right to shut down ROM sites, but in the long term this alone isn't going to solve the problem.
 

RM8

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,913
JP
Exactly what level of human tragedy is it that a random kid in the future cannot play Journey to Silius?

If you're thinking about the welfare of kids in the future, their level of access to Journey to Silius should be pretty low on your list of worries.
I didn't say it was a tragedy, I worded it pretty clearly and I'm still waiting for someone to tell me why it's ideal that games get lost forever, with future generations losing access to them. Welfare? What are you even talking about?
 

hanshen

Member
Jun 24, 2018
3,892
Chicago, IL
So now we're getting to a discussion about people in developing countries.

If I'm not mistaken, in most of these countries piracy has been the default way to enjoy video games and other media for decades, to the point where almost nobody buys them legitimately because they either simply aren't available, or are far more expensive than even in North America. Official publishers are making some inroads, but there are still a lot of countries where people basically can't buy legit video games, so probably millions of people there pirate. Emuparadise was started buy a guy in India like 18 years ago right? It's technically illegal, but it's what people do.

Look at China. China isn't allowing new games to be licensed there right now and thus be sold in official Chinese channels, so people in China are just buying games on Steam. If I'm not mistaken that's at least unlawful there, but it's a huge factor in Steam's growth right now.

A better example is Poland. 20 or 30 years ago everyone there pirated because that's all they could do to get games. The solution that fixed the problem was GOG actually selling a bunch of old games, and often translating games into Polish.

Again, Nintendo is within its right to shut down ROM sites, but in the long term this alone isn't going to solve the problem.

Piracy is the main reason why Chinese market is filled with F2P P2W crap. While there are people buying games on steam, it's just a tiny fraction comparing to PC piracy in China. Local developers gave up on the PC market years ago, because nothing except for online f2p games get any meaningful sale.

I would also argue that piracy essentially limited the lobbying power of the industry in China. While the government is authoritarian, China values economic growth above anything else. Movies are not being restricted as video games in China, because the movie industry is generating meaningful economic growth. The mobile f2p focused game market has no retail presence, thus all profit goes directly to a handful of companies limiting its economic impact.
 

RM8

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,913
JP
I did. But these games are not lost without romsites. Physical copies are common and easy to buy. So if a kid wants to play old NES games, he can just buy one on the internet.
Oh my god, go back and read my post (the part that says IN THE FUTURE) :P

You don't have to educate me on the availability of retro games since I'm a retro head myself.
 

KtSlime

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,910
Tokyo
I don't think it is reasonable to use a hypothetical situation to justify a crime. It is very possible that many copies and many versions of a game will survive until it enters public domain.
 

hanshen

Member
Jun 24, 2018
3,892
Chicago, IL
Oh my god, go back and read my post (the part that says IN THE FUTURE) :P

You don't have to educate me on the availability of retro games since I'm a retro head myself.

Most NES games will enter public domain in 40 years. Cartridges can survive that long, can't they? Also the game preservation argument for romsites is like saying vhs copying is a legitimate way to preserve old films.
 

RM8

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,913
JP
I don't think it is reasonable to use a hypothetical situation to justify a crime. It is very possible that many copies and many versions of a game will survive until it enters public domain.
It's not hypothetical, copies of games are finite and games do become rare with time. You don't think availability will ever be a problem, that's also a supposition on your part.

Most NES games will enter public domain in 40 years. Cartridges can survive that long, can't they? Also the game preservation argument for romsites is like saying vhs copying is a legitimate way to preserve old films.
Making a VHS copy of a movie grants you an equally durable copy (of lower quality), you don't gain a lot from it. I don't see the point to be honest, it's nothing like emulating your own ROMs.
 

RedSwirl

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,101
Piracy is the main reason why Chinese market is filled with F2P P2W crap. While there are people buying games on steam, it's just a tiny fraction comparing to PC piracy in China. Local developers gave up on the PC market years ago, because nothing except for online f2p games get any meaningful sale.

I would also argue that piracy essentially limited the lobbying power of the industry in China. While the government is authoritarian, China values economic growth above anything else. Movies are not being restricted as video games in China, because the movie industry is generating meaningful economic growth. The mobile f2p focused game market has no retail presence, thus all profit goes directly to a handful of companies limiting its economic impact.

It kind of turns into a chicken-and-egg situation though when you ask what was the cause of the majority of Chinese users pirating in the first place. The legit western gaming industry basically didn't exist in China until relatively recently. They couldn't just buy games like we can. This is how it is in a lot of countries. Them pirating doesn't technically hurt companies like Nintendo because those are users who could never legitimately buy their games in the first place.

And Still, Valve has tuned Steam to support Chinese users and now China is a main growth market for them. I remember Gabe Newell -- who is always quoted as saying Piracy is a problem of service an not technology or law, once saying everyone told Valve not to even try to target Russia under the assumption everyone there just pirates games. Russia became one of Steam's main growth markets. Now it's a big enough deal for freaking Final Fantasy XV to have a Russian voice track (I still can't believe that). I'm not saying supporting those developing markets is going to completely squash piracy, but it seems to bring in a lot of new customers for companies that try.

Console companies are trying to make inroads into certain developing markets now but they very well might lose the market dominance there to PC, mobile, and F2P gaming because when it comes down to it, traditional for-pay console gaming has kind of always been inherently a privilege of middle-class people living in industrialized countries.
 

hanshen

Member
Jun 24, 2018
3,892
Chicago, IL
It kind of turns into a chicken-and-egg situation though when you ask what was the cause of the majority of Chinese users pirating in the first place. The legit western gaming industry basically didn't exist in China until relatively recently. They couldn't just buy games like we can. This is how it is in a lot of countries. Them pirating doesn't technically hurt companies like Nintendo because those are users who could never legitimately buy their games in the first place.

And Still, Valve has tuned Steam to support Chinese users and now China is a main growth market for them. I remember Gabe Newell -- who is always quoted as saying Piracy is a problem of service an not technology or law, once saying everyone told Valve not to even try to target Russia under the assumption everyone there just pirates games. Russia became one of Steam's main growth markets. Now it's a big enough deal for freaking Final Fantasy XV to have a Russian voice track (I still can't believe that). I'm not saying supporting those developing markets is going to completely squash piracy, but it seems to bring in a lot of new customers for companies that try.

Console companies are trying to make inroads into certain developing markets now but they very well might lose the market dominance there to PC, mobile, and F2P gaming because when it comes down to it, traditional for-pay console gaming has kind of always been inherently a privilege of middle-class people living in industrialized countries.

Not true. EA had a Beijing office since 1996. I had legit copies of Need for Speed and Command and Conquer in the 90s. Ubisoft, interplay and Blizzard also sold their games through chinese publishers.

In early 2000s, EA tried the "50 yuan" strategy, selling new pc games for 50 yuan(6 dollars at the time) with slightly cheaper packaging instead of traditional pc. As far as I know, it didn't work and EA stopped publishing directly in China shortly since.

The problem IMO is that privacy was so prevalent for so long, people are not used to paying for software anymore. That's why even with significant more disposable income, people still prefer playing f2p games and rather spend money on ingame items.
 

D.Lo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,348
Sydney
It's not hypothetical, copies of games are finite and games do become rare with time. You don't think availability will ever be a problem, that's also a supposition on your part.
'A kid in the future' is a hypothetical, pal.

And games do not necessarily become 'rare' over time. The majority of actually rare and worthwhile, and hence also more valuable games are now being preserved in original physical form by hundreds of thousands of dedicated collectors at this point. They may now be expensive to obtain, but that doesn't change their actual rarity or preserved status.

Little Samson will survive another 50 years, crazy gaming antique guys will make sure of that.
 

RM8

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,913
JP
'A kid in the future' is a hypothetical, pal.

And games do not necessarily become 'rare' over time. The majority of actually rare and worthwhile, and hence also more valuable games are now being preserved in original physical form by hundreds of thousands of dedicated collectors at this point. They may now be expensive to obtain, but that doesn't change their actual rarity or preserved status.

Little Samson will survive another 50 years, crazy gaming antique guys will make sure of that.
I'm pretty sure kids in the future will play video games :P That's not really a hypothetical scenario. Now, piracy is piracy and I absolutely do not condone it (it's tiresome having to add this disclaimer all the time in these discussions) but if someone in the future downloads a ROM of a game not readily available instead of paying an inflated collector price (money that will not reach the makers of the game), I personally would not be outraged.
 

D.Lo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,348
Sydney
I'm pretty sure kids in the future will play video games :P That's not really a hypothetical scenario. Now, piracy is piracy and I absolutely do not condone it (it's tiresome having to add this disclaimer all the time in these discussions) but if someone in the future downloads a ROM of a game not readily available instead of paying an inflated collector price (money that will not reach the makers of the game), I personally would not be outraged.
You can feel whatever you want.

But nobody has any kind of right to a game they do not own a legitimate copy of, and if the owner takes steps to prevent them from getting hold of illegitimate copies, or the pirate fall foul of the law and suffers for it, nobody has the right to outrage at that. No amount of:

'preservation'
'it's not hurting anyone'
'you're just a corporate apologist'
'if only they sold it themselves'
'if only it was cheaper to buy'
'the people who worked on it done't get paid either way'

justifies any outrage at a company maintaining their legal ownership of something they funded the creation of.

The correct response is "Okay fair enough, they own it and are maintaining their ownership under the law. Bad luck, pirates, no matter who you are".
 

AdolRed

Banned
Jan 12, 2018
269
United States
It's honestly upsetting seeing a forum like Resetera that's so far-left in its politics most of the time until you get to the subject of corporations losing hypothetical money to piracy and then everyone goes 'well hold on a second'

It's fucking embarrassing honestly
 

RM8

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,913
JP
You can feel whatever you want.

But nobody has any kind of right to a game they do not own a legitimate copy of
Who is actually disagreeing with this? You really like arguing about stuff no one is talking about, lol.

and if the owner takes steps to prevent them from getting hold of illegitimate copies, or the pirate fall foul of the law and suffers for it, nobody has the right to outrage at that. No amount of:

'preservation'
'it's not hurting anyone'
'you're just a corporate apologist'
'if only they sold it themselves'
'if only it was cheaper to buy'
'the people who worked on it done't get paid either way'

justifies any outrage at a company maintaining their legal ownership of something they funded the creation of.

The correct response is "Okay fair enough, they own it and are maintaining their ownership under the law. Bad luck, pirates, no matter who you are".
Would you say I'm outraged? I literally don't even know these websites Nintendo is closing down. Where we disagree is that my response is absolutely correct too: You can't make me care enough about someone downloading a ROM of an old game that's not available anymore, and I think that's a better outcome than games being buried in the past. Now please let's stick to what I'm talking about.
 

Cyanity

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,345
You can feel whatever you want.

But nobody has any kind of right to a game they do not own a legitimate copy of, and if the owner takes steps to prevent them from getting hold of illegitimate copies, or the pirate fall foul of the law and suffers for it, nobody has the right to outrage at that. No amount of:

'preservation'
'it's not hurting anyone'
'you're just a corporate apologist'
'if only they sold it themselves'
'if only it was cheaper to buy'
'the people who worked on it done't get paid either way'

justifies any outrage at a company maintaining their legal ownership of something they funded the creation of.

The correct response is "Okay fair enough, they own it and are maintaining their ownership under the law. Bad luck, pirates, no matter who you are".

I'm so sick of this take
 

D.Lo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,348
Sydney
Who is actually disagreeing with this? You really like arguing about stuff no one is talking about, lol.

Would you say I'm outraged? I literally don't even know these websites Nintendo is closing down. Where we disagree is that my response is absolutely correct too: You can't make me care enough about someone downloading a ROM of an old game that's not available anymore, and I think that's a better outcome than games being buried in the past. Now please let's stick to what I'm talking about.
No, I didn't say you were outraged, but many in the thread have been. On the first two pages alone, searching for a single word I got this:

While I love Nintendo for their games and all, fuck this
 

floridaguy954

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,631
You can feel whatever you want.

But nobody has any kind of right to a game they do not own a legitimate copy of, and if the owner takes steps to prevent them from getting hold of illegitimate copies, or the pirate fall foul of the law and suffers for it, nobody has the right to outrage at that. No amount of:

'preservation'
'it's not hurting anyone'
'you're just a corporate apologist'
'if only they sold it themselves'
'if only it was cheaper to buy'
'the people who worked on it done't get paid either way'

justifies any outrage at a company maintaining their legal ownership of something they funded the creation of.

The correct response is "Okay fair enough, they own it and are maintaining their ownership under the law. Bad luck, pirates, no matter who you are".
No, the correct response is "Nintendo will not see any money from me until they solve their service issue with purchase continuity over multiple generations."

I'll continue to support companies that have solved this issue and have a way for me to play a game or use an app I bought 8 years ago with better hardware (like Steam or the the Google Play store). Even better if the game is DRM free (I'll be able to play my PC copies of Shadow Warrior 2 and The Witcher 3 10 years from now without interference).

This is why I've fallen out of favor with closed-garden gaming. At least Microsoft is taking steps to solve their service issues by making more and more of their games available on PC.
 

D.Lo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,348
Sydney
No, the correct response is "Nintendo will not see any money from me until they solve their service issue with purchase continuity over multiple generations."
No, what you're written is an opinion (a fair one), that can be in addition, but is not an alternative, to what I wrote. It is always within your rights to not buy products you do not want to buy.

But you cannot have any valid sympathy for pirates/pirate websites who were using games they had not paid for when their access is slightly reduced by a company simply maintaining their ownership over those goods that were being pirated.
 

jerk

Member
Nov 6, 2017
751
No, what you're written is an opinion (a fair one), that can be in addition, but is not an alternative, to what I wrote. It is always within your rights to not buy products you do not want to buy.

But you cannot have any valid sympathy for pirates/pirate websites who were using games they had not paid for when their access is slightly reduced by a company simply maintaining their ownership over those goods that were being pirated.
I think ruining people's lives with a lawsuit settlement of millions of dollars because they ran a website that lets people download video games is a bit much. Say whatever for how people should be punished for that but any punishment for it shouldn't be liferuining.
 
OP
OP
Pablo Mesa

Pablo Mesa

Banned
Nov 23, 2017
6,878
I think ruining people's lives with a lawsuit settlement of millions of dollars because they ran a website that lets people download video games is a bit much. Say whatever for how people should be punished for that but any punishment for it shouldn't be liferuining.
But this is not life ruining, all said and done, this is just an staged public execution to work as a deterrent
 

casiopao

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
5,044
How is it entitlement for a child living in the third world who wants to play some old GBA games and maybe eke some fun and enjoyment out of their likely crushing grind of a life. These people downloading roms hurts literally nobody.

Your absolutist views on this matter speaks much more to your own personal privilege from being born in the West.

Using poor people as reason to why rom sites should exist is example of arguing in bad faith. Hell. It literally belittle the poor people.

Guess what? Those so called poor people who pirate the F out of PS4, PS3, 3DS and Switch all is damn capable to buy those consoles only. But nope they must be damb poor when they can just throw 300 bucks easily to buy an openly cracked platform and easily browse the whole rom sites looking for cheap games.

Poor people guys.