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Valdega

Banned
Sep 7, 2018
1,609
this is a defense force i sort of expected.

The defense of logic and capitalism? Sure. If you choose to boycott a product you'd otherwise enjoy because of something its creator did, by all means, go ahead. But if that's the case, there are probably quite a few products you currently enjoy that you shouldn't.
 

Deleted member 2793

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,368
Yep, I'm aware. But Toriko's not in Jump Force. J-Stars never got the same Western push Force is getting. Certainly was not one of a major console publisher conference's 'world premieres' at least. My point's more "they're trying HARD to push this game in the West, where Japanese devs and publishers seem to be aware more and more people are choosing to not separate art from artist in the case of still-living artists." So you'd think they'd avoid putting a character from a manga written by a pedophile in a game they're pushing so hard here. It seems almost counter-intuitive. Like. If it comes out Watsuki is getting no residues from Kenshin and Shishio appearing then, fine, but, I somewhat have my doubts.

Maybe my thinking on this is faulty, idk.
I don't think the Shueisha people care too much about a western backlash and just see Kenshin as an IP with worldwide appeal. Most consumers aren't even aware of Watsuki too sadly.

Hmm... Looking it up, it looks like Japan really doesn't seem to take issue with pedophilia. Disturbing. You think they would at least force him into mandatory therapy sessions or the like, and that fine they gave him is meaningless.
I think they said something about him getting treatment, but I'm not sure... and the west is putting rapists in position of power too sadly -- it's not a Japan only thing.
 

Lady Bow

Member
Nov 30, 2017
11,292
Says a character in a show that constantly puts its female characters in skimpy outfits, sidelines them for huge portions of the plot, and makes sure to put them in poses that highlight their tits and arse whenever they are actually in the frame.

Mineta is a bad character, but I think the show's attempts at lampshading that fact are hypocritical.
Uh, I don't think Kota said that quote.
 

andymcc

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,289
Columbus, OH
The defense of logic and capitalism? Sure. If you choose to boycott a product you'd otherwise enjoy because of something its creator did, by all means, go ahead. But if that's the case, there are probably quite a few products you currently enjoy that you shouldn't.

"logic and capitalism" to defend a fuckin' pedophile. cool, cool, cool.
 

Pyro

God help us the mods are making weekend threads
Member
Jul 30, 2018
14,505
United States
I've been meaning to watch Rurouni Kenshin for a while but holy shit nevermind.
 
Nov 4, 2018
486
Damn, I don't know what to think then.

I guess it's entirely up on how much you can seperate art from the artist to determine how much this bothers you.

I'm not a huge fan of Jump, hell about the only thing I've seen from this game that looks interesting is playable Yugi, so while I was never really going to get this game I think I'd have a hard time debating to get it or not considering they're making some pretty deep cuts with the roster selection.

I guess at most I'd just try to ignore these characters as dismissing the work of a group of people solely because of the actions of one person feels wrong to me.
 

Valdega

Banned
Sep 7, 2018
1,609
"logic and capitalism" to defend a fuckin' pedophile. cool, cool, cool.

And this is the perfect example of being unable to separate creators from their work. Nobody is giving Watsuki money because of his deviant behavior. They're giving him money because he created content that they are willing to pay for. That's it. If you create something people are willing to pay for, you deserve to get paid.
 

andymcc

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,289
Columbus, OH
Damn, I don't know what to think then.

I guess it's entirely up on how much you can seperate art from the artist to determine how much this bothers you.

I'm not a huge fan of Jump, hell about the only thing I've seen from this game that looks interesting is playable Yugi, so while I was never really going to get this game I think I'd have a hard time debating to get it or not considering they're making some pretty deep cuts with the roster selection.

I guess at most I'd just try to ignore these characters as dismissing the work of a group of people solely because of the actions of one person feels wrong to me.

trust me dude, it sucks. i really didn't like the last Jump game but the HxH, YYH, FotNS roster actually had me won over and then this...

And this is the perfect example of being unable to separate creators from their work. Nobody is giving Watsuki money because of his deviant behavior. They're giving him money because he created content that they are willing to pay for. That's it. If you create something people are willing to pay for, you deserve to get paid.

he was never penalized for his behavior. his publisher should have taken the high road and axed his ass. shueisha is fucking spineless.
 

Remember

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,484
Chicago, IL United States
Yeah, fuck this. Aint giving my money to that shithead Watsuki, and I reeeeaally loved Rurouni Kenshin.



The manga's author is a pedophile, who was charged and arrested (and released on the equivalent of a slap in the wrist) for possessing child pornography. The fucker even detailed what kind of CP he likes.

Looks like people will have to make a judgment call on the value of their ethics and morality and as one person put it, upholding values of staunch uprighteousness, for the sake of entertainment.

Yeah... That's sad. This is the first addition that actually interested me but I can't support it.

Welp, not interested any more. I refuse to support pedophiles.

Think about this quote from the writer of RK every time you think about giving this game money:

This character news excited me, but then I was quickly reminded about the author. Dammit. :/


As long as Watsuki isn't getting any royalties out of it, sure.

you want a pedophile to get more money?

Fuck Kenshin's pedo author and fuck this game.

Easiest hard fucking pass ever for me.

Yep, I'm aware. But Toriko's not in Jump Force. J-Stars never got the same Western push Force is getting. Certainly was not one of a major console publisher conference's 'world premieres' at least. My point's more "they're trying HARD to push this game in the West, where Japanese devs and publishers seem to be aware more and more people are choosing to not separate art from artist in the case of still-living artists." So you'd think they'd avoid putting a character from a manga written by a pedophile in a game they're pushing so hard here. It seems almost counter-intuitive. Like. If it comes out Watsuki is getting no residues from Kenshin and Shishio appearing then, fine, but, I somewhat have my doubts.

Maybe my thinking on this is faulty, idk.
Eh, nah. Watsuki isn't getting a single red cent from me and I refuse to purchase any further RuroKen associated media until he's dead in the ground, or, by a miracle, shows actual growth.

For those who want to play the game but don't want to support him, I have a solution for both:

used-video-games.jpg


Some of you might have forgotten, some of you might be new to the concept, but this section of the electronics store is for you.
 

Balfour

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,546
For those who want to play the game but don't want to support him, I have a solution for both:

used-video-games.jpg


Some of you might have forgotten, some of you might be new to the concept, but this section of the electronics store is for you.

Is that George R. R. Martin buying used games?
 

ElBoxy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,134
The defense of logic and capitalism? Sure. If you choose to boycott a product you'd otherwise enjoy because of something its creator did, by all means, go ahead. But if that's the case, there are probably quite a few products you currently enjoy that you shouldn't.
I love One Piece. Best manga and comic series for me. If I ever hear that Oda is a pedophile, abuser, homophobe, etc. I'm done buying One Piece. I can justify buying this game knowing other creators who aren't pedophiles are getting money but it's not too much to ask for Shonen Jump to hold their people responsible for their horrible actions.
 

Deleted member 32561

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 11, 2017
3,831
The defense of logic and capitalism? Sure. If you choose to boycott a product you'd otherwise enjoy because of something its creator did, by all means, go ahead. But if that's the case, there are probably quite a few products you currently enjoy that you shouldn't.
I don't buy things that I know pedophiles, rapists, bigots, or abusers directly profit from. Watsuki will directly get a payday from his characters being featured. If you don't see the moral quandry in supporting a pedophile when you know for a fact a fraction of your money will go to his pocket, by all means, buy it. It's true that there is no such thing as ethical consumption under capitalism- it's a vile, evil thing like that. But we can at least minimize the harm we do as consumers by not supporting vile creators until they no longer profit from their work.
I don't think the Shueisha people care too much about a western backlash and just see Kenshin as an IP with worldwide appeal. Most consumers aren't even aware of Watsuki too sadly.
Mmn, yeah, you're probably right that the average RuroKen fan doesn't even know what Watsuki did, let alone anything about him other than he wrote the manga, and Shueisha probably thinks we don't know or care as it was Japanese news. It's saddening.

For those who want to play the game but don't want to support him, I have a solution for both:

used-video-games.jpg


Some of you might have forgotten, some of you might be new to the concept, but this section of the electronics store is for you.
Mmn, I GUESS that's technically a viable alternative but I still don't quite feel comfortable with it as the copy still resulted in him seeing profit at one point, even if it wasn't my own money.
 

Remember

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,484
Chicago, IL United States
Mmn, I GUESS that's technically a viable alternative but I still don't quite feel comfortable with it as the copy still resulted in him seeing profit at one point, even if it wasn't my own money.

Then that's on you. When I buy a used video game I don't worry about the morality of the person who bought it before me. To me at that point I'm in the store, it's a plastic disc and I'm making sure it doesn't have tons of scratches on it.

Your main worry after that point should be DLC and choosing whether to buy it or not.
 

Menx64

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,774
If this game made in the same engine as Z figthers I would be so excited, but it looks horrible to me. Now if the add characters from Vagabond...
 

Aja91

Member
Dec 24, 2017
159
Ugh whatever

I hope they look to the DS games and notice how they had fighters from tons of series and not just the big ones
 

Trejo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,830
Are we seriously getting people here defending a literal pedophile getting rewarded just because they happen to like a character he draws? Jesus christ some of you people.
 

Valdega

Banned
Sep 7, 2018
1,609
But we can at least minimize the harm we do as consumers by not supporting vile creators until they no longer profit from their work.

The problem with that reasoning is that there's a very good chance that a vile person was involved with the creation of almost everything you use and enjoy. For example, do you use anything that was produced in China, India, Thailand or any third-world country? If so, you're basically supporting exploitative labor laws. Do you own anything that was created by a corporation? There's an extremely high chance that at least one shitty person was involved in its creation.

If you genuinely refuse to reward shitty people for their work then you'll need to boycott many, many things and do a lot of research to verify that the things you do support are not, in fact, created by shitty people.
 

Lotus

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
105,770
I like how everytime someone says they want to boycott something for a justifiable reason, there's always that one guy that's there to ask if they're ready to boycott everything in existence
 

Deleted member 5535

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,656
I doubt Watsuki or any other creator is seeing a dime on this for use of their characters. Still a shame his punishment wasn't worse.

Of course he's getting. Every mangaka have copyright of their manga and they get royalties for the licenses.

What? What? I genuinely did not expect this after what happened with Watsuki, especially in tandem with their seeming desire for it to succeed over here by pushing it at E3 of all places. It's not like there's a dearth of other samurai manga in Jump to pull from either if they wanted to put in a samurai character. I mean they have freakin' Gintama. If they specifically wanted a speedy, iaido type samurai, Kyuubei's right there.

Kenshin is the biggest samurai manga and it's also a currently series on Square Jump that it's one of the most popular manga in Japan. It's the reason for why it's there.

If Jump wants to define these characters on their own this would be a good step in doing so. They do own these characters right? If the manga was fairly popular I wouldn't blame them for wanting to still use the series and characters despite what became of the original author.

Jump is just a magazine and editorial from Shueisha. But yeah, they own the copyright of the franchise along the mangakas and also the trademark. It's how it works in Japan and why some manga change publishers since the author pretty much owns it while the publisher owns the distribution/publishing rights along license.

Kenshin isn't 30 years old one, two he barely even fucking got a sentence, much less a fine, three he is making money directly off of merchandising/licensing and is still publishing Kenshin comics with Jump.

It isn't on Shonen Jump since the end of the original serialization at the 90s, it's on Square Jump for the Hokkaido arc. Still Shueisha though.

Yep. Shueisha could have taken the high road and blacklisted the fucker since the government doesn't punish that shit but, nope...

It's not really a question of Shueisha since no publisher in Japan would do anything over it considering that the law is very recent and the stigma still was changed as well, beyond that they wouldn't want to lose him with the manga when it's very successful. It's going to be decades until this law becomes actually well made and it changes overall in perception as well.

Also, there was a case in the past with Shimabukuro with Joshikousei business in which is basically compensated date with highschool girls and he paid a sum of money to have sex with a 16 girl, was condened for 2 years, his manga at the time was cancelled and his sentence was later on suspended. He later on came back and in 2008 made Toriko in WSJ.

I don't buy things that I know pedophiles, rapists, bigots, or abusers directly profit from. Watsuki will directly get a payday from his characters being featured. If you don't see the moral quandry in supporting a pedophile when you know for a fact a fraction of your money will go to his pocket, by all means, buy it. It's true that there is no such thing as ethical consumption under capitalism- it's a vile, evil thing like that. But we can at least minimize the harm we do as consumers by not supporting vile creators until they no longer profit from their work. Mmn, yeah, you're probably right that the average RuroKen fan doesn't even know what Watsuki did, let alone anything about him other than he wrote the manga, and Shueisha probably thinks we don't know or care as it was Japanese news. It's saddening.

The fact that the manga continued months after the news and the first volume of the manga sold almost 400k which is really big shows the priority and why nothing was made over it. Unfortunately, what happened didn't change anything over it.
 
Oct 27, 2017
12,238
The problem with that reasoning is that there's a very good chance that a vile person was involved with the creation of almost everything you use and enjoy. For example, do you use anything that was produced in China, India, Thailand or any third-world country? If so, you're basically supporting exploitative labor laws. Do you own anything that was created by a corporation? There's an extremely high chance that at least one shitty person was involved in its creation.

If you genuinely refuse to reward shitty people for their work then you'll need to boycott many, many things and do a lot of research to verify that the things you do support are not, in fact, created by shitty people.
yYDszcy.jpg


I know for a fact that Watsuki is a pedophile. I couldnt, in good conscience, keep supporting him by consuming the stuff he creates. For the same reason I refuse to buy Dragon Quest XI while Sugiyama is around. Both are nasty people that have acted, using the very rewards of their works, on their nefarious thoughts.
 

ElBoxy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,134
The problem with that reasoning is that there's a very good chance that a vile person was involved with the creation of almost everything you use and enjoy. For example, do you use anything that was produced in China, India, Thailand or any third-world country? If so, you're basically supporting exploitative labor laws. Do you own anything that was created by a corporation? There's an extremely high chance that at least one shitty person was involved in its creation.

If you genuinely refuse to reward shitty people for their work then you'll need to boycott many, many things and do a lot of research to verify that the things you do support are not, in fact, created by shitty people.
There are things you have no control over, and there's simply not supporting anything Watsuki makes.

Edit: My first point makes it sound like we as a consumer have no voice in making change on a big scale. At the end of the day you can be a smart consumer in what you buy.
 
Last edited:

Imran

Member
Oct 24, 2017
6,584
The defense of logic and capitalism? Sure. If you choose to boycott a product you'd otherwise enjoy because of something its creator did, by all means, go ahead. But if that's the case, there are probably quite a few products you currently enjoy that you shouldn't.
Ah yes, the greatest hits.
 

andymcc

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,289
Columbus, OH
I like how everytime someone says they want to boycott something for a justifiable reason, there's always that one guy that's there to ask if they're ready to boycott everything in existence

one guy who has the sole writing credit for a series is a hell of a lot easier to boycott than the work of an entire nation/industry. dunno why that's so hard for someone to grasp lmao
 

DarkPrince

Member
Dec 2, 2017
1,054
Awesome Kenshin is always a welcome addition, Shishio is pretty cool, would have picked other characters over him but at least Kenshin is getting representation in the game, good stuff.
 

Deleted member 5535

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,656
Err, no, I mean Shueisha owns Rurouni Kenshin and they are known to not pay out royalties for projects like this.

Uh, what are you saying? Shueisha does owns Rurouni Kenshin but Watsuki is also the owner by copyright and he gets the royalties for overall license, much like for the volumes and pages of the monthly manga. And of course, with the power he has as a copyright owner, If he wanted he could go to another publisher and get Kenshin on there much like Kurumada did with Saint Seiya to be published by Akita Shoten, for example, with the difference that Shueisha still can publish what they owned in the past and use it in licenses unlike with Shaman King where they can't use anything anymore.
 

Deleted member 32561

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 11, 2017
3,831
Then that's on you. When I buy a used video game I don't worry about the morality of the person who bought it before me. To me at that point I'm in the store, it's a plastic disc and I'm making sure it doesn't have tons of scratches on it.

Your main worry after that point should be DLC and choosing whether to buy it or not.
I suppose that's a fair enough point, yeah. I'll think about it then.
yYDszcy.jpg


I know for a fact that Watsuki is a pedophile. I couldnt, in good conscience, keep supporting him by consuming the stuff he creates. For the same reason I refuse to buy Dragon Quest XI while Sugiyama is around. Both are nasty people that have acted, using the very rewards of their works, on their nefarious thoughts.
Literally what I was about to post, thank you.
 

Valdega

Banned
Sep 7, 2018
1,609
I like how everytime someone says they want to boycott something for a justifiable reason, there's always that one guy that's there to ask if they're ready to boycott everything in existence

It's called consistency. I'm not a big fan of convenient morality. That's when people claim the moral high ground when it's convenient to do so because it makes them feel better about themselves without any real cost. I'm also not a big fan of hypocrisy and double-standards which tend to correlate with convenient morality. Boycotting videogames (or claiming to boycott them on internet forums) is a pretty good example of convenient morality.
 

andymcc

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,289
Columbus, OH
It's called consistency. I'm not a big fan of convenient morality. That's when people claim the moral high ground when it's convenient to do so because it makes them feel better about themselves without any real cost. I'm also not a big fan of hypocrisy and double-standards which tend to correlate with convenient morality. Boycotting videogames (or claiming to boycott them on internet forums) is a pretty good example of convenient morality.

Video games are not a necessity for daily life thus easier to boycott. That hard to understand?

Furthermore, I feel comfortable never giving the sole credited author money for a comic series because of his heinous actions.
 

Aja91

Member
Dec 24, 2017
159
to this game's credit, it already has quite a few deep cuts no one was expecting. JUS didn't have City Hunter.

City Hunter was recently adapted into a K drama. Sold 50 million tanks in japan and is getting a theatrical film soon. it makes sense from a marketing standpoint to include that character. And every series mentioned is literally peak popularity jump.
 

Balfour

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,546
I wasn't gonna buy it anyway

But if I was this wouldn't have stopped me. I don't think of the creators when thinking of the merits of a product on its own. Yeah it sucks that that filth will profit from it, but I am gonna enjoy products I enjoy. Sugiyama has and never stopped me from buying Dragon Quest. But people can boycott what they want to, especially for such reasons such as this. Maybe I am weak willed or a PoS to many, but thats that.

The bastard should be in prison though
 

Imran

Member
Oct 24, 2017
6,584
I get by pretty well not watching Roman Polanski films, if one of you wants to get red-faced and scream about that.
 

andymcc

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,289
Columbus, OH
i like rurouni kenshin *shrug*

i probably have a longer history with it than most people (i literally ran a pretty big fansub trading operation when i was in middle/high school out of my dad's basement and RK was second to DBZ , lol) and i can't bring myself to enjoy it any longer.

But if I was this wouldn't have stopped me. I don't think of the creators when thinking of the merits of a product on its own. Yeah it sucks that that filth will profit from it, but I am gonna enjoy products I enjoy. Sugiyama has and never stopped me from buying Dragon Quest. But people can boycott what they want to, especially for such reasons such as this. Maybe I am weak willed or a PoS to many, but thats that.

Sugiyama is someone I can separate the art from because he's not the sole creator of DQ. he's not a criminal. I think he's abhorrent and can't wait until someone else is in charge of the music for the series, but at least he's not a convicted pedophile.
 

Valdega

Banned
Sep 7, 2018
1,609
User Banned (1 Week): Dismissing attitude towards concerns about supporting a pedophile. Bad faith argumentation.
Video games are not a necessity for daily life thus easier to boycott. That hard to understand?

That was my whole point. It's convenient to boycott something you don't need or even really want. The truth is that most people don't actually believe their boycotts will have any meaning. The people claiming to boycott Cyberpunk because of CDPR's offensive tweet, for example, don't actually believe that their boycott will have any impact on the game's critical or commercial success. The boycott is a hollow gesture meant to stroke their own ego rather than produce actual results. That's convenient morality.
 

andymcc

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,289
Columbus, OH
That was my whole point. It's convenient to boycott something you don't need or even really want. The truth is that most people don't actually believe their boycotts will have any meaning. The people claiming to boycott Cyberpunk because of CDPR's offensive tweet, for example, don't actually believe that their boycott will have any impact on the game's critical or commercial success. The boycott is a hollow gesture meant to stroke their own ego rather than produce actual results. That's convenient morality.
"Stroke their own ego". You're a fucking clown dude.