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StuBurns

Self Requested Ban
Banned
Nov 12, 2017
7,273
But the article is not about people's complaints, it's about the string of inflammatory headlines titled "Bethesda says it won't change engines for Starfield and The Elder Scrolls VI" and why those headlines are meaningless.
But they're not meaningless at all.

It doesn't matter what people call the problem. The constant performance issues are almost certainly related to memory management from tracking objects and objectives over time, and how that data is retained and loaded, but that's irrelevant. The complaints stem from a technological issue, and one that they have had for many years, and show no sign of addressing in the future.

They even claimed Skyrim was a 'new engine', they gave it a new name and everything, and it wasn't anything of the sort, and still had exactly the same issue FO3 and Oblivion had before it.

Of course the next-gen games will have a new renderer, and a whole host of new engines, physics, lighting, animation, and addressing the presentation shortcomings is fine, but it's not going to address the fundamental performance issue their games suffer from, so dismissing the headlines seems semantic at best. They can't say exactly what the issue is, and even if they could, there might not even be a term of art for it. No one cares what they call them. No one is saying RDR2 would be prettier if it didn't share its engine name with a table tennis game from more than a decade ago, no one cares.

Just because people don't possess the language to express their complaints, doesn't mean their voices should be dismissed, and it doesn't mean it's not news worthy.
 

Steroyd

Member
Oct 27, 2017
691
Well talking about a game "engine" is the easiest thing to latch onto to describe the issues people have with Bethsada games, it reminds me of one of Jim's Jimquisitions where he mentioned that a game breaking bug highlighted in the original PC release of Skyrim was still apparent in it's many many ports making it's way to the latest Switch port when those ports were a good opportunity to fix the issues as it was moved from console to console.

Bethsada does need to overhaul something at the very least, as time goes on their new games look more and more dated faster and it's going to be more obvious each time when your Horizon ZD's, Ass Creed's and RDR's come out, it's why Fallout 76 is getting so much flak because the foundation in place looks terrible for an online game.
 

7thFloor

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,647
U.S.
you'll live
you know what is truly annoying though ? buying their last five fully priced games and still finding the same bugs on them
If Starfield has the same issues that we've been seeing for years, I won't be defending Bethesda, but I'm hopeful that won't be the case given that they're overhauling animation and physics. Maybe I'm just giving Fallout 76 a pass because I know that it was intended to be an extension of Fallout 4 in a way, I never expected it to be a leap forward.
 

jschreier

Press Sneak Fuck
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
1,099
Jason Schreier: Defender of corporate interests. This is a wierd 180 from July when he said corporations should be held accountable.
lmao yes I am very interested in defending the corporate interests of a company that has blacklisted me for five years.

Or maybe I consider it my job to help clear up misinformation and try to explain to people what video game engines actually are and how they work, so they can criticize Bethesda games in a more insightful way than "their engine is creaky :("?

Guess we'll never know the answer.
 

Molemitts

Member
Oct 25, 2017
583
Whatever the problem is, Bethesda really have to step up. The quality of open world titles has exploded so much that they have no excuses to be making the same kind of game they've been doing since Oblivion.

I hope Starfield, as a brand new IP will present the opportunity for them take their time and create something modern and polished that could be the basis for future games. The excuse that there's just no other games on this scale does not fly anymore.
 

peppersky

Banned
Mar 9, 2018
1,174
This article is nothing but semantics.

People want to see a Bethesda game that actually feels like a current-gen game, and considering how Fallout 4 and 76 look and run compared to other similar titles that's just not going to happen if they continue to simply iterate the same basic tech they've used for almost a decade now.

People love Bethesda's games and want to see them make something that truly shows some effort to evolve as a company and the fact that they don't see the need to fundamentally change their tech just doesn't inspire me with any confidence in their future as a developer at all.

edit: Removed some very misguided accusations.
 
Last edited:

klauskorp

Member
Oct 27, 2017
597
Minnesota
I'm glad Jason wrote that article, although judging by the responses in here, it's falling on deaf ears. Yeah, maybe it's semantics, but if you're going to complain about something, at least complain about the right thing. It's more productive to say "this game is ludicrously buggy" or "this game doesn't look good" rather than "this game's engine sucks." If you're not someone who is actively using the engine, you don't know that.
 

BearPawB

I'm a fan of the erotic thriller genre
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,998
Yes the engine has updated and evolved.
That doesn't stop it from producing games that are bug ridden and look a generation behind most other games.
 

Starlatine

533.489 paid youtubers cant be wrong
Member
Oct 28, 2017
30,444
t's more productive to say "this game is ludicrously buggy" or "this game doesn't look good" rather than "this game's engine sucks."

Are you going to pretend people never said these things and this is why poor bethesda just can't seem to fix their problems?

In fact people complained about their games being ugly and buggy way before they complained about the engine. The complaints about engine came after their next games remained buggy and ugly - thus people wrongly assumed it was the engines fault
 

Deleted member 1003

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,638
I'm glad Jason wrote that article, although judging by the responses in here, it's falling on deaf ears. Yeah, maybe it's semantics, but if you're going to complain about something, at least complain about the right thing. It's more productive to say "this game is ludicrously buggy" or "this game doesn't look good" rather than "this game's engine sucks." If you're not someone who is actively using the engine, you don't know that.
This is Era, so these types of response aren't surprising.
 

Deleted member 6730

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,526
Honestly I rarely hear complaints about Bethesda's games outside the internet. I even had an ex who owned Skyrim on the PS3 and when I told her that I heard that version sucks she said "meh works fine for me".
 

AegonSnake

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,566
Skyrim was my first Bethesda game, and i was shocked to see how they kept track of every single piece of loot in the game. by around the 50th hour, i had literally hundreds of pans and silver pieces scattered around the main shop in the first town. and the game loaded them and i was able to interact with them at all times. the game looked like shit compared to other open world titles at the time, but there was obviously a lot of physics based stuff they had to do that likely used up a lot of the graphics horsepower.

I definitely noticed the lighting and other foliage enhancements they have made for Fallout 76, but it still looks fugly compared to other games. I think their artists are just bad at creating character models, faces, animations, foliage and trees. One could argue that Fallout is supposed to look ugly but Skyrim looked ugly and it wasnt set in a post apocalyptic world.
 

Maledict

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,086
Meh, I've not been enjoying Kotaku's recent run of 'defend the industry, gamers are stupid'. It's cheap and ignores any basis to the complaints or concerns. It feels very much like the same sort of press that came out after the initial MS reveal or the Me3 ending.

Bearing in mind that Skyrim in the PS3 was *fundamentally* broken and unplayable, yet still got high scores across the board and a co plate and absolute lack of any journalism covering that issue. I think that sort of issue is. Bigger thing for the press to cover but I don't recall Kotaku, or anyone, leading the charge there...
 

Yukinari

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,538
The Danger Zone
Honestly I rarely hear complaints about Bethesda's games outside the internet. I even had an ex who owned Skyrim on the PS3 and when I told her that I heard that version sucks she said "meh works fine for me".

I get the feeling people who have no complaints for bethesda games either dont play enough games or just handwave it cause they like the game. I cant speak for your ex but thats how it feels.

Sums up the FO76 beta. "Game runs fine on my rig and im having fun with my friends"
 

Deleted member 6730

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,526
I get the feeling people who have no complaints for bethesda games either dont play enough games or just handwave it cause they like the game. I cant speak for your ex but thats how it feels.

Sums up the FO76 beta. "Game runs fine on my rig and im having fun with my friends"
Wow people who like the games tend to not complain about them! It's not like Bethesda doesn't have problems but this feels like outrage for the sake of outrage.
 

StuBurns

Self Requested Ban
Banned
Nov 12, 2017
7,273
Honestly I rarely hear complaints about Bethesda's games outside the internet. I even had an ex who owned Skyrim on the PS3 and when I told her that I heard that version sucks she said "meh works fine for me".
It is a question of standards. OoT ran at 20fps, and it still felt like the most incredible thing I'd played at the time. Skyrim PS3 will literally run at 0fps at times once your save file is big enough. That to me feels like it should be questionable performance for anyone, obviously not, but it's not surprising people are going to be very critical of that kind of thing.
 

Bunkles

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,663
Meh, I've not been enjoying Kotaku's recent run of 'defend the industry, gamers are stupid'. It's cheap and ignores any basis to the complaints or concerns. It feels very much like the same sort of press that came out after the initial MS reveal or the Me3 ending.


tenor.gif
 

Gnorman

Banned
Jan 14, 2018
2,945
He sounds like a corporate apologist in this piece. He spends the whole article complaining about people misusing the term game engine without ever acknowledging that regardless of the term used people's complaints are 100% valid. These are not mid budget AA games we're talking about, these are games that sell tens of millions. It's not unreasonable to expect a similar level of polish to what other devs manage. Seeing the same bugs present game after game absolutely deserves calling out. The root cause of those bugs isn't important to the end user.
 

koutoru

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,313
In short, game engines aren't static and improvements are made over time, but Bethesda's games still produce many issues and bugs people find to be an active hindrance to their enjoyment of the game.
 

Psoelberg

Member
Oct 26, 2017
306
Thanks for posting this. It's so tiring seeing people discussing game engines and "demanding" that Bethesda needs to change their engine - without any thoughts on what consequences it would have if Bethesda started from scratch on new software. To name just a few:

1. The entire moding scene would be lost. All the moders who have come to know Bethesda's software would need to start from scratch.
2. Just because you move to new software doesn't mean you automatically fix bugs. Quite the contrary actually. Bethesda have spend years fixing bugs on software they know. Moving to new software or rebuilding would probably mean that old bugs would reappear. It's like people don't really understand how complex their games are - and no, you can't compare to The Witcher 3, RDR2, etc. The scope is completely different and The Witcher 3 is far from having the same complexity as Skyrim.

This is of course not to say that people can't complain. It's still a product you're spending money on and can have certain expectations to. Just don't suggest that Bethesda should get a new engine as that would probably make things worse.
 

saenima

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,892
I guess players need to take some game development courses before they're allowed to criticize anything, lest they use the wrong terminology. Which is really what's important here.
 

Deleted member 1003

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,638
I get the feeling people who have no complaints for bethesda games either dont play enough games or just handwave it cause they like the game. I cant speak for your ex but thats how it feels.

Sums up the FO76 beta. "Game runs fine on my rig and im having fun with my friends"
Unless a game I am playing is so demonstrably bad in performance then I am having fun and don't really care. It's one places like these where the discussion of issues is amplified and everyone is yelling at everyone about everything. If you come here, everything sucks or plays awful, or is the greatest game ever without flaws and discussion tends to sway toward one extreme or the other.

My summary of the Beta on the PS4 "game runs fine but I find it boring."
 

Plum

Member
May 31, 2018
17,305
The issue with this article's arguments it that, whilst it's correct that the engine has evolved over the years, it seems to sidestep/ignore the fact that literally every single Gamebryo game created by Bethesda has suffered from the same issues. If you fail to provide any real alternative for why, despite nearly 2 decades of technical progress and the (considering this is the gaming industry) masses of employee turnover during that time, FO76 is just as buggy, outdated and janky as before then you've failed to give a good reason for why people shouldn't blame the engine. Perhaps people shouldn't be asking them to change the engine entirely, but to focus in on those complaints just comes off as missing the point to me.

Also, how do you explain the game-spanning issues found in other game engines? Many Unreal Engine 3 games suffered from texture streaming issues yet, under your definition of what an engine is, this is purely the fault of the developer despite those issues being found in games from many different studios. Are engines ever at fault for a game's issues or is it always the developer's use of said engine?

Honestly I rarely hear complaints about Bethesda's games outside the internet. I even had an ex who owned Skyrim on the PS3 and when I told her that I heard that version sucks she said "meh works fine for me".

This is true for literally any technical issue outside of game-breaking stuff, it doesn't mean those complaints are any less valid.
 

Derrick01

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,289
This really sounds like nitpicking over what something's called when the core issue is yes they do still use the same ancient, buggy engine that runs on tape and gum plugging up the holes by this point. Whether it's literally the same engine or not is semantics because you can see by playing the games that it's pretty much the same thing and it carries with it the same problems all their games have.

The point is people want change now. They want something that looks and runs like a AAA game should in 2018 not 2006. They want a less buggy game. They want all of these things because everyone else is offering most of this stuff nowadays and Bethesda is stuck in the past with the only advantage they still boast is being able to move spoons around, something that no other dev gives a shit about. And it's time for the media to stop giving Bethesda a pass for these issues.
 

MotionBlue

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
738
lmao yes I am very interested in defending the corporate interests of a company that has blacklisted me for five years.

Or maybe I consider it my job to help clear up misinformation and try to explain to people what video game engines actually are and how they work, so they can criticize Bethesda games in a more insightful way than "their engine is creaky :("?

Guess we'll never know the answer.
Your article is pedantic. People are misusing the word, but the controversy and complaints are still valid. FO76 is a glorified multiplayer mod, with bugs and glitches that were present in Fallout 4. Fallout 4 had bugs and glitches that were present in Skyrim, and FO3. Bethesda shipped Skyrim for Nintendo Switch with bugs and glitches from seven years ago. At what point does Bethesda get held accountable without gaming journalists calling something entitlement, outrage, or misguided? Because journalists sure the fuck aren't calling them on it(not you in particular, but in general).
 

jschreier

Press Sneak Fuck
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
1,099
This article is nothing but semantics, but I guess that's just what you gotta do when most of your job requires not pissing off any devs.

Meh, I've not been enjoying Kotaku's recent run of 'defend the industry, gamers are stupid'. It's cheap and ignores any basis to the complaints or concerns. It feels very much like the same sort of press that came out after the initial MS reveal or the Me3 ending.

He sounds like a corporate apologist in this piece. He spends the whole article complaining about people misusing the term game engine without ever acknowledging that regardless of the term used people's complaints are 100% valid. These are not mid budget AA games we're talking about, these are games that sell tens of millions. It's not unreasonable to expect a similar level of polish to what other devs manage. Seeing the same bugs present game after game absolutely deserves calling out. The root cause of those bugs isn't important to the end user.

I honestly wonder if any of you actually read the article, which is very clearly written in response to today's stories about how Bethesda is using the same engine for Starfield and TESVI, stories that are misleading and misguided. The article also makes it very clear that you should indeed be criticizing Bethesda's shortcomings. Here, let me make this easy for you by giving you a nice little excerpt, since it seems to be too much trouble to read the whole thing:

The concept of a game engine has become a bugbear for fans, and with Bethesda's longrunning reputation for nasty glitches, it's always tempting to find factors to blame. Fans and pundits should absolutely criticize games like Fallout 76 for their ridiculous bugs and graphical failings. But today's controversy—and the notion that the next-gen games Starfield and The Elder Scrolls VI would use the same "engine" as today's games—is misguided at best.

I really liked this forum, but posts like "I guess that's just what you gotta do when most of your job requires not pissing off any devs" -- referring to the one journalist who isn't going to lavish Fallout 76 press events at the Greenbrier, and the only one who's been blacklisted by Bethesda for five years because he refused to be an extension of their marketing -- make me wonder why I bother.
 

Razgriz417

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,110
Everything he's saying is technically sound but the reality is that the lack of polish, underwhelming performance optimization and visuals are still far below what they should be and no matter the cause, it's time for a major upgrade in those departments.
yup, this more than anything makes bethesda's engine look dated
 

Deleted member 36578

Dec 21, 2017
26,561
I just would prefer if the next Fallout looked more like Metro.
 

GenTask

Member
Nov 15, 2017
2,666
I just hope Starfield or the next Elder Scrolls are fun at the very least. However, it would be even better if they create something unique and stray outside their usual formula. I think people play these games for different reasons, but for me to be fully invested, I just prefer engaging storytelling rather than me playing pretend and making it up as I go along.

As far as the topic goes, I do agree that their games continue to have performance problems and other shortcomings to the point where I never feel enthused enough to finish them. This is coming from someone like myself that likes a game like New Vegas over 3/4, but just couldn't finish it because the game had the same janky issues. With Skyrim I just got bored with the story and exploring, but everyone's mileage varies with these games.

In a previous thread, someone linked to here over at NMA where some people went more in-depth on 'engine' issues. I'm not familiar at all with the engine or modding any of these games, but it was interesting nonetheless if these things really are baked in still:

All entity meta-data is loaded in a similar fashion to the player entity. So states like basic attributes, skills, inventory, etc... are constantly parsing instead of being called upon when needed. Basically the engine wastes a lot of resources on absolutely useless tasks.

Cell Based loading
; This significantly lowers the amount of entities allowable in a loaded cell aka a hard limit. Anything that surpasses the limit will basically break the engine resulting in game breaking issues or a crash.

Modular everything, basically the entire engine is a jigsaw puzzle that is stuck together with rubbers bands, tape, glue, gum, and anything else that could be used as an adhesive. If a module is updated, it broke another, then that get updated... then it continues on cascading through them all. Instead of building a comprehensive system that is efficient and easy to debug, they turned it into cooked spaghetti and dumped it on the ground.

The engine doesn't support in engine animations, or any real features observed in the games. They are all produced via modules... that must be loaded and remain loaded individually. To give you an idea forward kinematics, inverse kinematics, translation, nor deformations. So stuff like a train car in Half-Life 1 are impossible to program into the engine without using workarounds, hacks, modules, or by exploiting bugs. For example imagine a single entity, except all the variables that determine it's actions are exterior to its programming. In this case separate controllers are applied to the entity to get it to function. Instead of programming in the required information into the entity itself. Remember the Broken Steel tram? It was a NPC character wearing a hat running a path. The NPC, train hat, paths, and trigger initiators all had to be loaded, instead of a path and a single entity...

Height map terrain generation, literally one of the most annoying ways to make terrain. In this case the terrain can only deform on a single axis, which means static assets that use a lot of computational power must be used to make simple terrain like cliffs.

Literally no optimization tools, look at Fallout 4's Sanctuary. The entire area is just a bunch of static assets layered on top of each other, wasting all your computers resources to render something you're not going to see.

Most of the engine's operations are tied to the frame rate... *sigh* like physics calculations... So if the frame rate drops or increases, so does calculations the engine does. It's like playing an old DOS game on a modern PC without adjusting the CPU speed.

The lighting within the engine is so out dated goldsrc (The engine the original half-life used) is still considered better. Plus the module for lighting is so inefficient that a good deal of computer calculations get soaked up by dynamic and static light sources. There is also a max limit of light sources within a cell... Heaven have mercy on the soul of the modder or map designer that placed one too many lights in a cell.

The engine constantly trips over itself trying to load separate modules, this often results in conflicts or weird easily preventable bugs that directly impact game play. Kind of like backing a horse up a mountain side. A great example of this is Fallout 4's bug of missing inventory items that still weigh down the player. Which is caused by a desync of modules that are intended to operate in tandem.

It still uses a manual NavMesh system, Instead of programming an entity with a basic AI collision detection calculation for pathing, it uses a system that requires the entities to rely upon an actual separate mesh, that overlays everything the NPC can traverse. While some engines use navmesh systems, they instead only mark faces and vertexes of existing geometry for parsing without having to generate completely separate faces and vertexes.

Spawns and gibs, every time something is spawned it has to be fully loaded as previously stated, this also includes items and gibs. When something gibs the spawned entities often spawn inside each other and require a collision calculation to "bust apart", instead of using dynamic slices based on the existing mesh and having the engine calculate the slices. Plus the sudden extra calculations cause frame rate drops, and bugs quite often.
 

Cels

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,781
complaining about the engine is a shortcut for other, legitimate complaints like:
  • forcing an FPS cap because your game's physics break at higher FPS
  • no official ultrawide support
  • no official FOV sliders
FOV sliders, unlimited FPS caps, and native ultrawide support should be no-brainers for a PC game, but bethesda doesn't think so. some people literally can't play a game at low FOV because they get motion sick. but bethesda doesn't give a shit about those people.

to the extent that reusing tools prevents bethesda from supporting these features, that's probably where gamers' ire is directed
 

J-Spot

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,321
How dare this corporate apologist try to correct our ignorance? If I want to believe the bugs in Bethesda games are caused by gremlins in the computer that's my right as a consumer!
 

Bunkles

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,663
complaining about the engine is a shortcut for other, legitimate complaints like:
  • forcing an FPS cap because your game's physics break at higher FPS
  • no official ultrawide support
  • no official FOV sliders
FOV sliders, unlimited FPS caps, and native ultrawide support should be no-brainers for a PC game, but bethesda doesn't think so. some people literally can't play a game at low FOV because they get motion sick. but bethesda doesn't give a shit about those people.

to the extent that reusing tools prevents bethesda from supporting these features, that's probably where gamers' ire is directed

Then gamers should be more specific in their demands other than "lol they are still using shitty engine lol." If gamers want to critique the developers on the tech they are using the least they could do is educate themselves before spouting off online.
 

Gricean

Member
Aug 30, 2018
114
Independently of the Bethesda discussion, that quick rundown on the way engines are used and modified was kind of enlightening.
 

Toa Axis

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
843
Virginia
He sounds like a corporate apologist in this piece. He spends the whole article complaining about people misusing the term game engine without ever acknowledging that regardless of the term used people's complaints are 100% valid. These are not mid budget AA games we're talking about, these are games that sell tens of millions. It's not unreasonable to expect a similar level of polish to what other devs manage. Seeing the same bugs present game after game absolutely deserves calling out. The root cause of those bugs isn't important to the end user.
1. Except he does.
It's true that Bethesda's games have long been criticized for their game-breaking bugs and inability to reach the beautiful graphical standards of other high-end games, but there might be many reasons for that. One of those reasons might be their ambition—few other games offer as much world interaction as Skyrim or Fallout 4. Perhaps another reason is Bethesda's internal processes, or programming guidelines, or development timeline, or even some busted line of code buried somewhere in a file that nobody has touched since 2004. It's hard to say.

2. That may be true, but in a discussion about those things, I don't think it's too much to ask that people direct their commentary at the right targets. I don't think anyone will disagree when one says that their games don't quite hold up to their contemporaries, whether it be polish, graphical fidelity, animation, etc. But we don't know *why* these are the case. Maybe the engine just doesn't support certain features (and that can be changed!), maybe their animators are low in nymber, maybe their pipeline is inefficient, etc, etc. Criticizing things that you observe is fine, but the problems arise when people claim that they need to just throw out their existing technology and start from scratch, when it would be far less resource intensive and far more efficient to upgrade and overhaul things where necessary.

It's all about clearer, more directed discussion.
 

zombiejames

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,935
The whiplash from seeing RDR2 to FO76 is so jarring that its like playing games that are multiple generations apart despite coming out in like a month of each other.
It's shocking how drastic it is. The sad thing here is Bethesda has the money, time, and resources to compete but here you have yet another example of the media trying to give them a free pass.
 

Deleted member 2840

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,400
I honestly wonder if any of you actually read the article, which is very clearly written in response to today's stories about how Bethesda is using the same engine for Starfield and TESVI, stories that are misleading and misguided. The article also makes it very clear that you should indeed be criticizing Bethesda's shortcomings. Here, let me make this easy for you by giving you a nice little excerpt, since it seems to be too much trouble to read the whole thing:



I really liked this forum, but posts like "I guess that's just what you gotta do when most of your job requires not pissing off any devs" -- referring to the one journalist who isn't going to lavish Fallout 76 press events at the Greenbrier, and the only one who's been blacklisted by Bethesda for five years because he refused to be an extension of their marketing -- make me wonder why I bother.
You know Jason, I can sometimes disagree with you and some things that Kotaku does, but I really admire your integrity . You're one of the few in this industry that I can safely say is an actual journalist. Keep up the good work.
 

CountAntonio

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,730
It's always been more Bethesda not wanting to start from scratch than it ever was about the engine.

It started with a buggy, janky product(Morrowind) and built up from those foundations but never quite moved on from them. Running up the hills in third person of Fallout 76 reminds me so much of Morrowind. Morrowind is one of if not my favorite games of all time but I have always acknowledge many of it's shortcomings and the fact that you can still kind of feel them decades later in new games is astounding.
 

Spider-Man

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,353
All Bethesda needs to know is that their fanbase grows tired of the same engine and gameplay template and want a change.

It doesn't matter if its difficult, or whatever, the market wants it and if you want to succeed, follow the market.
 

Popetita

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
1,957
TX|PR
I love JAson and will read it later but in general it is a sentiment I have been having as of late.

GAmers in general suck and act very entitled sometimes. I know that the Bethesda games have issues but no one game is perfect. I know games like GoW, The Witcher 3 and the Naughty Dog games are praised, but I sometimes think gamers unfairly expect every game has to be that "good".

One example is the rendering issue people found in the 76 B.E.T.A. I read so much vitriol against Bethesda. All the classic "lazy dev" hits and it bothered me. I took and extra step and read about it some more and just like I thought it was a project/development decision like with every software project out there.

There are deadlines, limitation and sometimes choices can have to be made for the best outcome of the project. It seems to me that in this example and other Bethesda and whoever is criticized just made a choice that worked for them. All the armchair development and insult directed at them is just embarrassing bs IMO.

Even if we have a poster here that is a genius working in development, their comments would still be too much because that person is not part of that team or project. It is very easy to criticize something from an outside perspective.

Now, I am not saying criticisms are not valid and that those things shouldn't be pointed out, but I would love if some of the entitlement would be left out of it because it makes no sense. These expectation some gamers have are truly too much.
 

Wallach

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,653
While I get the thrust of this article, I think there is some merit to what consumers are talking about on this one specifically when we're talking about Bethesda.

One of the core issues of their games has been systemic engine-level bugs that Bethesda has never invested the engineering to fix (or has assessed the opportunity cost of doing so to be incredibly out of turn). Fallout 76 marks at least the 10th year of their core engine game speed bug (where the frame buffer is incorrectly influencing certain calculations). It is also the 10th year of some long-standing scripting bugs that break quest progression when their scripts are tied to object interactions. These are indeed the kind of issues that would change if you switched game engines wholesale, ignoring that far more than that would also change. In fact it may be the only thing that gets these specific bugs out of their games, when even games with budgets the size of Skyrim or Fallout 4 do nothing to move that needle. If not for those games, then the answer to when they are going to finally make that engine-level investment for those defects really is probably "never."

I can think of few cases in this industry where this particular issue has gotten to this level.
 

Bunkles

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,663
All Bethesda needs to know is that their fanbase grows tired of the same engine and gameplay template and want a change.

It doesn't matter if its difficult, or whatever, the market wants it and if you want to succeed, follow the market.

Wasn't Fallout 4 a massive success and their Skyrim ports are still selling well? It seems to me they are following the market.