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Oct 28, 2017
6,119
WTF is this take? Are you serious that a solution is only going to make this nonexistent economy worse? What economy are you even talking about?

If you think they're going to give you more cards when they're already extremely generous, you are sadly mistaken. They still want to make money. And so any chance means they're going to take away something else, which could be a net loss. I didn't say any solution will only make the economy worse, I only said there's a good chance it will. Why would you think otherwise?

By the way, there's obviously an economy here. It's between you and Wizards. You spend time and money to get cards from them.

I do think the economy is pretty generous and better than hearthstone.

However the 5th card problem is a still a big problem that needs to be fixed. Bad elements of an economy stick in players minds much more than the good elements. Players won't be thinking "I crafted a top tier deck slightly faster than I could in hearthstone", they'll be thinking "I just wasted 4 mythic wildcards on rekindling Phoenix, then I opened a 5th copy in a pack and got nothing for it".

Any parts of a games economy that turns what should be a feel good moment such as opening a playable mythic rare into a feel bad moment needs to be fixed.

I understand, but how would you fix that? And for the record, Hearthstone has this same problem really - it's not like it feels great to craft a legendary and then trade it in for only 25% back. Does Arena give you less? Yes. But both feel bad. They're never going to let you trade 1:1 or anywhere even remotely close to it, so what's the point? The only solution is not allowing 5th copies of mythics just like Hearthstone. That might be fine.
 
Dec 1, 2017
280
If you think they're going to give you more cards when they're already extremely generous, you are sadly mistaken. They still want to make money. And so any chance means they're going to take away something else, which could be a net loss. I didn't say any solution will only make the economy worse, I only said there's a good chance it will. Why would you think otherwise?

By the way, there's obviously an economy here. It's between you and Wizards. You spend time and money to get cards from them.

You seem to think you know alot about WOTC and how they're not going to change the current system, ok Stan. You are making an assumption that they aren't already collecting data of people who aren't spending as much money as they initially did because the current system sucks, and eventually everyone will become saturated with this problem. Not to mention your definition of an 'economy' is terrible. You think that a simple transaction constitutes a valid economy. At some point, after spending X dollars, each person is going to realize that the system blows and that money spent will drop quickly. But you seem to think that MTGArena is some treasure trove of endless potential customers? It's not.
 
Oct 28, 2017
6,119
You seem to think you know alot about WOTC and how they're not going to change the current system, ok Stan. You are making an assumption that they aren't already collecting data of people who aren't spending as much money as they initially did because the current system sucks, and eventually everyone will become saturated with this problem. Not to mention your definition of an 'economy' is terrible. You think that a simple transaction constitutes a valid economy. At some point, after spending X dollars, each person is going to realize that the system blows and that money spent will drop quickly. But you seem to think that MTGArena is some treasure trove of endless potential customers? It's not.

You don't know what an economy is.

And no, I don't think they're collecting data of people who "aren't spending as much money as they initially did because the current system sucks." (1) This system is designed to have you front load all of your spending and slowly stop playing over the course of the expansion, so the fact that people would do that is extremely likely, and (2) they don't have a way to know why any given player chooses to stop spending money.

I do know a lot about business and economics. That is, in some ways, the bulk of my work on a daily basis. I don't work for WOTC so I can't speak for them specifically, obviously. I can only speak generally about what the average corporation would likely do.
 
Dec 1, 2017
280
User Warned: Antagonizing other members
You don't know what an economy is.

Then we agree to disagree. Your definition of economy is laughable if you're considering a simple transaction as an economy.

And you're also delusional thinking that a company with an online game ISN'T collecting data on transactions and trends. But what else should I expect from someone who chose a Roman phrase as a username?
 

Deleted member 9100

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
3,076
If you think they're going to give you more cards when they're already extremely generous, you are sadly mistaken. They still want to make money. And so any chance means they're going to take away something else, which could be a net loss. I didn't say any solution will only make the economy worse, I only said there's a good chance it will. Why would you think otherwise?

By the way, there's obviously an economy here. It's between you and Wizards. You spend time and money to get cards from them.



I understand, but how would you fix that? And for the record, Hearthstone has this same problem really - it's not like it feels great to craft a legendary and then trade it in for only 25% back. Does Arena give you less? Yes. But both feel bad. They're never going to let you trade 1:1 or anywhere even remotely close to it, so what's the point? The only solution is not allowing 5th copies of mythics just like Hearthstone. That might be fine.

It felt terrible previously in Hearthstone to craft a legendary than open it in a pack.

They fixed that with the system implemented in 2017 where you can't open legendaries you already have.

My solution would be that each 5th card gets you 1/6 of a wildcard of that type. The same progress you get for opening a pack.

It wouldn't be a ton, but it'd feel far better than the current system.

Not allowing 5th copies of mythics wouldn't work here because what happens with draft when you get a 5th copy or once you've opened all the mythics in a set.
 
Oct 28, 2017
6,119
Then we agree to disagree. Your definition of economy is laughable if you're considering a simple transaction as an economy.

And you're also delusional thinking that a company with an online game ISN'T collecting data on transactions and trends. But what else should I expect from someone who chose a Roman phrase as a username?

It's a Latin phrase, and I actually strongly dislike the username. My other browser tab was opened when to a reference to it when I made the username and I picked it on a whim when nothing else immediately came to mind.

Also, we can't agree to disagree on this. We're dealing with facts. Whether something is an economy is a fact-based analysis. You are simply wrong. This is an economy because players trade money and time to Wizards in exchange for digital cards and an ecosystem where players can play against each other.

I also never said Wizards isn't collecting data on transactions and trends. Of course they are. I said they wouldn't have any way to know why an individual player doesn't make purchases or stops playing, which is true. How would you expect them to know that?
 
Dec 1, 2017
280
I also never said Wizards isn't collecting data on transactions and trends. Of course they are. I said they wouldn't have any way to know why an individual player doesn't make purchases or stops playing, which is true. How would you expect them to know that?

Sorry, I guess I expected someone who 'does know alot about business and economics due to his/her daily work' to realize that they're going to research the root causes of a trend and put 2 and 2 together. Didn't realize you couldn't extrapolate my example that if a company is trending spending habits on players who have spent money on their product and correlate that spending decreases drastically when the 5th copy phenomenon occurs, they're going to act on it. And trying to represent yourself as understanding what an 'average corporation' would do is hilarious unless you work for a company like Wedbush where you understand the industry averages.
 

Froyo Love

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,503
You seem to think you know alot about WOTC and how they're not going to change the current system, ok Stan. You are making an assumption that they aren't already collecting data of people who aren't spending as much money as they initially did because the current system sucks, and eventually everyone will become saturated with this problem. Not to mention your definition of an 'economy' is terrible. You think that a simple transaction constitutes a valid economy. At some point, after spending X dollars, each person is going to realize that the system blows and that money spent will drop quickly. But you seem to think that MTGArena is some treasure trove of endless potential customers? It's not.
seems kinda weird to call someone out for making assumptions and then make way bigger and more sweeping assumptions about the spending and playing behavior over time of the entire player base
 
Dec 1, 2017
280
seems kinda weird to call someone out for making assumptions and then make way bigger and more sweeping assumptions about the spending and playing behavior over time of the entire player base

What bigger and more sweeping assumption? That any basic analyst in their company is going to see trends of what I stated above and realize a correlation between dollars spent and increase in 5th card events, and realize that the cause is an upset customer base? I don't see how that's 'bigger and more sweeping' of an assumption than 'any change they make is likely to be worse' that the other guy said.
 

Froyo Love

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,503
What bigger and more sweeping assumption? That any basic analyst in their company is going to see trends of what I stated above and realize a correlation between dollars spent and increase in 5th card events, and realize that the cause is an upset customer base? I don't see how that's 'bigger and more sweeping' of an assumption than 'any change they make is likely to be worse' that the other guy said.
you're assuming the trend you made up exists, affects every player, is the most significant factor shaping player spending, and WotC is going to need to correct this

carthago assumed that WotC ain't gonna give us more than where they currently calibrated things
 
Dec 1, 2017
280
you're assuming the trend you made up exists, affects every player, is the most significant factor shaping player spending, and WotC is going to need to correct this

carthago assumed that WotC ain't gonna give us more than where they currently calibrated things

So you don't think there's an issue and that people (like me who have purchased more than the welcome bundle, but have stopped spending money abruptly) exist and that it isn't a real thing? Really?
 
Oct 27, 2017
6,960
• From the paper MTG players' pespective: MTGA prices are a bargain, decks are cheaper and a lot of free stuff is given for daily play.
• From the other digital CCG players' perspective: the Vault/5th card system is unfair. No amount of comparisons to the paper MTG prices matter.

Daily/tournament rewards also give 5th cards. I think that the 1/6 wildcard progress is the bare minimum we should get for the 5th cards. I am at the point where common/uncommon Ravnica cards are 100% waste, and got like 20% of the rare playsets already.

Gwent is a failure, but Artifact might put legit pressure for the card players' money, so Wizards better not offer vault-progress booster contents. The game is going to be successful and profitable with or without the 5th card issue solved, but I think that MTGA would be more popular and profitable if they solved this problem for both players' satisfaction and PR outlook.
 

filkry

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,892
So you don't think there's an issue and that people (like me who have purchased more than the welcome bundle, but have stopped spending money abruptly) exist and that it isn't a real thing? Really?

Not saying that they don't exist, they obviously do. But you're assuming that the problem is pervasive and significantly affecting their revenue (as opposed to any other trends).

I'm with Carthago. Any changes to the 5th card system to make it more generous will probably come with a decrease in value in other places. At $50/set I have like 10-15 complete decks including lands, and by next set I will have tons of gold saved up to buy packs. If things get any more generous I expect they will start losing the whale dollars they don't want to lose.
 

Froyo Love

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,503
So you don't think there's an issue and that people (like me who have purchased more than the welcome bundle, but have stopped spending money abruptly) exist and that it isn't a real thing? Really?
your personal experience isn't the user base. what % of players do you think feel exactly like you do?

for literally every successful game with an F2P economy there's a crowd of hardcore players who post a lot online about how there are enormous problems with how stingy the free flow of resources is. what does it tell you that Hearthstone didn't implement its no duplicate legendaries system for over 3 years?
 

Froyo Love

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,503
https://mtgarena.community.gl/forums/threads/41925

Here is their 5th card solution, duplicate protection. Q1 2019 though.

I imagine they nerf other generous rewards if there are no dupes.
Okay, so we have the goals we want to accomplish, we have the problem space, and we have a system that will help us reach these goals... so why haven't we implemented it yet? What's the hold-up? Why is it taking so long? And the honest answer is, even though we feel this is the best solution to accomplish the goals we've set, it also happens to be a complex solution that touches on a lot of different systems, from the events we offer, to the rewards you earn, to the finite amount of cards that are available in each rarity.
To me this sounds like confirmation that even though they're fixing the "feel-bad" of pulling 5th duplicates, they're going to subtly tweak rewards down to compensate and keep the actual player card earning rate the same.
 

DSP

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,120
yeah, if you want to play some Magic, now is the best time. You will get compensated for 5th copies in some way anyway and still can take advantage of the current reward system.

Them running "simulations" can't be good news...

Magic Duels had similar no dupe pack system and you could complete the collection very easily. That game didn't have wildcards or much in game rewards.
 

Deleted member 9100

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
3,076
Yup. Looks like our rewards are getting nuked. How exciting. But hey, at least there will no longer be a .01% chance to get a 5th mythic!

You're leaping to conclusions without any justification. Rewards are getting nuked? You have no idea what or if any change there will be to rewards.

The 5th card problem is a huge problem and it's not just about mythics. It's about commons, uncommons and rares too.

We are one month into the game and it's already a huge problem. It's only going to get worse as time goes on and players collections get larger and they are more likely to get duplicates. It isn't a huge issue for most players now because we started with 5 expansions to collect and we are only 1 month in. It's already a big issue for whales who are the lifeblood of the game and I'm sure it's preventing a lot of them from spending any more. It'll be an issue going forward when there's only 1 set every 3 months.

I'm glad they're working on a fix and I hope when they do it's applied retroactively. It'd be a shame if current players who open 5th copies get screwed over.

If they make a change to rewards, it'll be so that overall rate of collection are the same as before. You already said you believe it's generous, so if the overall rate of collection doesn't change would you have an issue with it?

I wouldn't. I believe it's pretty generous currently, they just need to fix the feels bad issue of 5th copies.
 
Last edited:

Deleted member 1041

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,725
I mean it's like real life buying packs and getting a 5th common or uncommon

Tbh it was a bad complaint. The majority of players were never gonna get consistent 5th copies.
 

GLHFGodbless

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,285
An interesting though difficult deck, I feel for a beginner like me to grasp XP.

In terms of playstyle it's very easy, just pray you get some ramp in your opening hand into a carnage tyrant or Immortal sun or something before you get overrun, hopefully play a sarkhans unsealing somewhere in there. In terms of price, it's def not for a beginner as it has a shit ton of off meta rares and mythics.

As for the new system, I can't imagine anyone being upset with it. Not opening more than 4 of a rare ormythic is excellent news, and imo, almost too generous going forward. I wouldn't be so bad now when we have 4 set's to deal with, but releasing 1 set at a time going forward, I can see people very easily completely a set by the time the next one drops. I don't even buy ravnica packs anymore as I have a pretty high chance of getting 5th rares.

I can def see rewards being toned down a bit to compensate.
 

filkry

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,892
My guess:

+ no more 5th cards
+ reduced rewards across the board
+ keeper drafts no longer offered, phantom drafts instead with completely different prize structure

I have a fair amount of faith that they will still make it feel good. Unlike most of the community, I don't believe WotC are evil mustache-twirlers, I actually think they are trying to do right by players.
 

GLHFGodbless

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,285
Honestly, I feel they could of just doubled vault progression and gave 10/30/100/200 gold for 5th copies of cards or something and it would of been good.
 

Deleted member 9100

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
3,076
I personally believe the best approach would be to give players 1/6 of a wildcard of that rarity for each 5th copy.

Giving players no duplicates seems much more generous, but creates a bunch of issues on what to do with unavoidable 5th copies (opening a pack after you've already opened all the cards in a set, doing a draft).
 

Boogiepop

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,966
I'll admit I'm just a tad worried as I'm doing GREAT off the current system, so a change doesn't have huge potential benefit me, but could potentially throw things out of wack. Like, mostly just with the current system I'm fairly confident I could play whatever I want after too much longer, and largely be fine keeping up without putting in a single cent more. That possibility COULD shift with the new system just because it's an unknown how they'll adjust to making things much more generous in this one way. But hell, if this results in me getting literal complete collections and doesn't screw me on keeping up decently with the meta, then awesome!

Also, I had my first ever actually decent match with a Teferi player, using my Drakes deck. We both got down to like 10 cards left in deck and it was a careful back and forth of both sides deciding what to play when, as I took out his Teferis as he used them to remove my Crackling Drakes, etc. I did win, but yeah... felt like actually playing Magic, rather than a game of "smash their face in by turn 5-6, or you just won't be able to play a card ever again."
 
Oct 28, 2017
6,119
You're leaping to conclusions without any justification. Rewards are getting nuked? You have no idea what or if any change there will be to rewards.

The 5th card problem is a huge problem and it's not just about mythics. It's about commons, uncommons and rares too.

We are one month into the game and it's already a huge problem. It's only going to get worse as time goes on and players collections get larger and they are more likely to get duplicates. It isn't a huge issue for most players now because we started with 5 expansions to collect and we are only 1 month in. It's already a big issue for whales who are the lifeblood of the game and I'm sure it's preventing a lot of them from spending any more. It'll be an issue going forward when there's only 1 set every 3 months.

I'm glad they're working on a fix and I hope when they do it's applied retroactively. It'd be a shame if current players who open 5th copies get screwed over.

If they make a change to rewards, it'll be so that overall rate of collection are the same as before. You already said you believe it's generous, so if the overall rate of collection doesn't change would you have an issue with it?

I wouldn't. I believe it's pretty generous currently, they just need to fix the feels bad issue of 5th copies.

Yeah I was being sensationalistic for sure. I suspect it'll be mostly the same, but if I were them, I'd err on the side of giving us a little bit less. I have a feeling the average players who are not whales are going to be worse off for this change. We'll see how it shakes out.
 

Lemstar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
738
However the 5th card problem is a still a big problem that needs to be fixed. Bad elements of an economy stick in players minds much more than the good elements. Players won't be thinking "I crafted a top tier deck slightly faster than I could in hearthstone", they'll be thinking "I just wasted 4 mythic wildcards on rekindling Phoenix, then I opened a 5th copy in a pack and got nothing for it".
yeah well, turns out people on the internet aren't very rational or good at math or even particularly bright
quick heuristic: anyone talking about how obvious or how easy a solution is or who uses phrasing like "they should just ____" or "all they need to do is _____" probably doesn't actually know

What I find really weird about this topic is that the rhetoric used with regards to randomized microtransactions is usually that whales are being inhumanely targeted, but no one seems to have any compunction about suddenly arguing that WotC isn't acting in the interest of whales by providing them enough incentive to open their wallets. Really makes you think, right?
 

Froyo Love

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,503
I mean it's like real life buying packs and getting a 5th common or uncommon

Tbh it was a bad complaint. The majority of players were never gonna get consistent 5th copies.
In paper Magic you can sell your cards. The actual consistency of getting 5th copies doesn't matter, it's a perception problem where it feels very memorable and unpleasant when it occurs. WotC is smart to reduce a source of friction.
 

Boogiepop

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,966
Also... I just realized that this essentially nukes all value of common and uncommon wildcards. And it's actually kind of funny that commons and uncommons were key value for the vault system, but with this they'll become real useless in packs really quickly. Not a huge deal at all, but just a thing I didn't immediately think of.

Oh, and they really will need to do something with drafts, as this'll really throw a wrench into their value vs packs. I honestly actually wouldn't mind if they just switched to phantom draft, frankly, as long as they of course make it cheaper. Hell, would give me a chance to draft more freely even, which'd be neat.

Edit: Also, I foresee no way that constructed event its current form won't be killed off, either, as it'd be WAAAAAAY too generous with those systems in place.
 

DSP

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,120
Current system probably should have never made it to public, it's not any good for them since buying packs isn't any good compared with events. it's not good for the whales because of 5th copy and now when they make changes to current rewards they will create an angry mob from f2p and budget oriented players. It is definitely complex issue that takes a while to come up with a solution. In the end they have to create a business not a charity.

I'm optimistic they wouldn't downgrade things too much. Even then putting your gold toward opening packs that have no duplicate is a better experience than grinding events with an aggro deck even though it might be more expensive. It makes a better experience for average players in the long run and knowing you are guaranteed to have a complete collection eventually is a good feeling. I still don't have every classic card in HS and I played since the very beginning.
 

Froyo Love

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,503
Yes they should. But the player base are fools to consider it a source of friction.
The players can't really be wrong about their own experiences. WotC designed a system that usually gives you a very pleasant jackpot-searching sensation when you get card rewards or open packs, but sometimes gives you the unpleasant experience of your "reward" being completely valueless because of an investment choice you already made. It's worse than just getting a junk rare, because it makes the player feel like a sucker for having engaged with the game's systems and crafted cards.

Smoothing out that bad outcome should be good for everyone. WotC cares a lot about player experience. Land and hand destruction decks were never really dominant strategies, but they cut their power cut because they made for unpleasant games.
 

DSP

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,120
the other problem with this game is that there are no cosmetics in any way. Like golden cards and equivalents. They had the premium planeswalkers for closed beta players but beside that nothing else. There are many ways to monetize a card game and keep people happy and HS already figured it all out still WotC ignored it entirely. HS economy isn't perfect but it's proven to work for all kind of players for a long period of time. You probably shouldn't completely ignore it making a new digital game.
 

filkry

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,892
the other problem with this game is that there are no cosmetics in any way. Like golden cards and equivalents. They had the premium planeswalkers for closed beta players but beside that nothing else. There are many ways to monetize a card game and keep people happy and HS already figured it all out still WotC ignored it entirely. HS economy isn't perfect but it's proven to work for all kind of players for a long period of time. You probably shouldn't completely ignore it making a new digital game.

They clearly didn't ignore it. From the beginning the messaging was that they were going with the wildcard system to avoid the incentives to dust your collection in "other games". The reasoning was that Magic has more formats making it valuable to players to have a wide card base, and I think you see this playing out in their rotating event schedule where it's good to have cards available to brew a deck on the fly.

They've also repeatedly said they want to do cosmetic rewards, but it's not ready yet. And if you look at the features we are missing (social, pod draft, etc) it is a good thing that more monetization tracks are not top priority. Can you imagine the PR fallout if they started selling more stuff right now?

Now, you can argue that they had nefarious intentions when not using the HS model instead of the consumer-friendly reasons they gave. But they were obviously aware of the system and explicitly chose not to use it.
 

Schreckstoff

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,618
Nah the no dusting has always been complete bullshit. Wotc makes so many more trash cards than any other card game digital or not because limited is such a big focus.

There's no need to even own 1 copy of Overflowing Insight let alone 4 ever and there's many more of these completely unplayable cards.
Even good cards like Multani see next to 0 play in any format.

No dusting is just wotc thinking they got a better plan and/or them thinking it will make them more money
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
They clearly didn't ignore it. From the beginning the messaging was that they were going with the wildcard system to avoid the incentives to dust your collection in "other games". The reasoning was that Magic has more formats making it valuable to players to have a wide card base, and I think you see this playing out in their rotating event schedule where it's good to have cards available to brew a deck on the fly.

They've also repeatedly said they want to do cosmetic rewards, but it's not ready yet. And if you look at the features we are missing (social, pod draft, etc) it is a good thing that more monetization tracks are not top priority. Can you imagine the PR fallout if they started selling more stuff right now?

Now, you can argue that they had nefarious intentions when not using the HS model instead of the consumer-friendly reasons they gave. But they were obviously aware of the system and explicitly chose not to use it.
No-dusting also vastly reduces the damage that can be done if an account is hacked. Much easier for CS to deal with.
 

Froyo Love

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,503
Nah the no dusting has always been complete bullshit. Wotc makes so many more trash cards than any other card game digital or not because limited is such a big focus.

There's no need to even own 1 copy of Overflowing Insight let alone 4 ever and there's many more of these completely unplayable cards.
Even good cards like Multani see next to 0 play in any format.

No dusting is just wotc thinking they got a better plan and/or them thinking it will make them more money
There's a deck that runs 4x Overflowing Insight.

In MTGO or paper you can build a quirky list like that with junk rares and mythics for cheap. In Arena, that list would be fun to play, but you need to sink 8x mythics into it, 6 of which will almost certainly never be playable in another list.
 

Schreckstoff

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,618
There's a deck that runs 4x Overflowing Insight.

In MTGO or paper you can build a quirky list like that with junk rares and mythics for cheap. In Arena, that list would be fun to play, but you need to sink 8x mythics into it, 6 of which will almost certainly never be playable in another list.
saffron olive doesn't count.

Axis of Mortality then Ixalan block had a lot of bad mythics.
No-dusting also vastly reduces the damage that can be done if an account is hacked. Much easier for CS to deal with.
why would people hack accounts where there's nothing to gain? Is that even a regular occurrence in something like HS
 

Lemstar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
738
Nah the no dusting has always been complete bullshit. Wotc makes so many more trash cards than any other card game digital or not because limited is such a big focus.

There's no need to even own 1 copy of Overflowing Insight let alone 4 ever and there's many more of these completely unplayable cards.
Even good cards like Multani see next to 0 play in any format.

No dusting is just wotc thinking they got a better plan and/or them thinking it will make them more money
I don't get it. People don't want dusting because they like destroying cards they open, they want it because it's a means to an end. Do you really think that if it were implemented, it'd magically speed up the rate of card acquisition dramatically?
 

Deleted member 9100

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
3,076
yeah well, turns out people on the internet aren't very rational or good at math or even particularly bright
quick heuristic: anyone talking about how obvious or how easy a solution is or who uses phrasing like "they should just ____" or "all they need to do is _____" probably doesn't actually know

What I find really weird about this topic is that the rhetoric used with regards to randomized microtransactions is usually that whales are being inhumanely targeted, but no one seems to have any compunction about suddenly arguing that WotC isn't acting in the interest of whales by providing them enough incentive to open their wallets. Really makes you think, right?

F2P games like this live and die by the people who open their wallets and put money into the game. No one is arguing to make the system more predatory so that these people open their wallets further.

What is being argued is fixing a system that makes players who open their wallets feel completely ripped off.
 

QFNS

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
935
I don't get it. People don't want dusting because they like destroying cards they open, they want it because it's a means to an end. Do you really think that if it were implemented, it'd magically speed up the rate of card acquisition dramatically?

I basically agree with your point. I realized that after writing this post I sort of ranted at you and you didn't really deserve that. Sorry =(

No it wouldn't speed up the rate of acquisition, but it would allow people the flexibility to turn the totally useless trash cards into cards they WANT. It provides some level of flexibility. That's the tradeoff. I lose a copy of card X for a partial copy of a card I actually want. In MTGA this would be fantastic. There are so many cards I would perfectly fine with going from 4 to 0 copies of in order to get partial copies of rares/mythics that I will actually play. WotC obviously don't do this because it would remove incentive to spend money chasing those rares/mythics.

I have NEVER understood arguments against the dusting system. No one ever forces you to dust. You can keep 900000 copies of a card if you want. If I don't care about a card though and it is worth nothing to me (for instance if I played only red or white or something like that), I would like to be able to create value out of a valueless card. In paper at least I could trade away the ones I don't want or sell them, but in MTGA, I am stuck with garbage cards from every color that are categorically USELESS outside of limited play that are PERMANENTLY in my collection. They serve NO purpose once the limited event has ended. Let me do something with them! They will forever collect digital dust on my digital shelf because they were DESIGNED TO DO SO.
 

NotoriousPUG

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
47
I basically agree with your point. I realized that after writing this post I sort of ranted at you and you didn't really deserve that. Sorry =(

No it wouldn't speed up the rate of acquisition, but it would allow people the flexibility to turn the totally useless trash cards into cards they WANT. It provides some level of flexibility. That's the tradeoff. I lose a copy of card X for a partial copy of a card I actually want. In MTGA this would be fantastic. There are so many cards I would perfectly fine with going from 4 to 0 copies of in order to get partial copies of rares/mythics that I will actually play. WotC obviously don't do this because it would remove incentive to spend money chasing those rares/mythics.

I have NEVER understood arguments against the dusting system. No one ever forces you to dust. You can keep 900000 copies of a card if you want. If I don't care about a card though and it is worth nothing to me (for instance if I played only red or white or something like that), I would like to be able to create value out of a valueless card. In paper at least I could trade away the ones I don't want or sell them, but in MTGA, I am stuck with garbage cards from every color that are categorically USELESS outside of limited play that are PERMANENTLY in my collection. They serve NO purpose once the limited event has ended. Let me do something with them! They will forever collect digital dust on my digital shelf because they were DESIGNED TO DO SO.

I don't want to see dusting because it makes the net decking that much worse. 85% of the playerbase wouldn't experiment with other "suboptimal" cards in lieu of just dusting and crafting the exact ones for the deck.

At least now there is a brief period of time where people earn the cards they need where we still get to play vs some level of deck variety.
 

Schreckstoff

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,618
I don't get it. People don't want dusting because they like destroying cards they open, they want it because it's a means to an end. Do you really think that if it were implemented, it'd magically speed up the rate of card acquisition dramatically?
no I don't think so, it's a method to get precisely what you want at any given moment if you're ok with trading down.
I wouldn't have better decks in HS rn but I would be able to forego being able to build certain decks to complete the ones I have built.

Also I'm a spike in constructed I'll always netdecks unless wotc adds an EDH like format.