Kotaku's Stephen Totilo argues with Reggie that Smash Ultimate isn't a new game

Dinobot · Nov 13, 2018

Yikes. Totilo was one of the few I respected but this takes him down a few pegs.

Its a full fledged system with new moves and super meter and game modes. It shits in the single player offerings of 4 that's for sure.

Polynaut · Nov 13, 2018

Was definitely disappointed/annoyed to see this in the interview. I thought we were past the whole SmAsH uLtImAtE iS jUsT a PoRt hot takes. And even if it does have all the content from the previous games, isn't it introducing 10+ new characters? That' can't be typical of a fighting game sequel...

Barn · Nov 13, 2018

What an asinine hill to die on.

Simply on the basis of the absurd amount of new content it offers, calling Smash Ultimate "not a new game" is reason enough for the rest of the world to continue viewing gamers as entitled man-babies for the rest of eternity. But lo and behold, calling Let's Go "not a new game" somehow manages to be even sillier. I bet they're really sliding by on that Pokemon Red and Blue engine.

I know I'm being harsh here -- and I'm not trying to defend Reggie, who usually comes off more as a genial used car salesman than anything else -- but I just don't understand what sort of insight or utility this intentionally antagonistic stance reveals. Tolito writes these games off because they're "building off older games." That's literally the definition of a series.

All it does is make the journalist -- a journalist at a major, highly visible gaming outlet -- come off as entitled. Like, trying to be entitled. What, I ask, is the recent obsession with the "this game doesn't count because of my new, personal and arbitrary goal posts" argument around these parts? I can't be the only one who has noticed it.

Pikelet said:
This is an entirely semantic argument that doesn't really matter at all.

Yeah, to put it more succinctly, this. What is he trying to prove, what sort of insight is he trying to illicit? It really just feels like faux-intellectual trolling.

newgamewhodis · Nov 13, 2018

Was the point Totilo was arguing that Smash is a port up, or that Nintendo hasn't focused on new IPs very much with Switch? If it's the former, I disagree, if it's the latter, I agree.

Apollo · Nov 13, 2018

I completely agree that it's a bad take, particularly without the clarification that he provided in this thread, but holy shit at some of the vitriol I'm seeing. It's one bad take amidst a sea of otherwise excellent journalism from the team at Kotaku. Sometimes it happens and it's fine to call it out, but some of this seems a bit much.

Meelow · Nov 13, 2018

I wanna know why people don't say Call of Duty is the same game every year?

StraySheep · Nov 13, 2018

Everyone's like "oooh this thread is gonna be spicy."

It's a new Smash game. Thats obvious. That's all there is to say.

ZeoVGM · Nov 13, 2018

Incredibly ignorant and embarrassing for Kotaku.

The fact that he first started the idea with the new Pokemon games also aren't new games is insane. They are factually new games.

Velocity:Design:Comfort · Nov 13, 2018

Mark _Dagician said:
I thought I was the only one. To me, Smash ultimate is just an enhanced port of Smash wii u.

It is not in the realm of opinions. Did you know the term "port" has an established definition?

Menx64 · Nov 13, 2018

If someone wants to start that argument, they need to define with great detail what a sequel and a new game is. Bethesda uses his engine for a lot of things, the fox engine was used for MG and then PES...

Deleted member 6730 · Nov 13, 2018

Vesper said:
Fantastic counterpoint.

No, I'm being serious. This is an interview with the head of Nintendo about the holiday season and all you took from it was something completely out of context. Like holy shit.

1000% H · Nov 13, 2018

jschreier said:
My god, if some light banter between a journalist and the CEO of Nintendo of America (a tiny chunk of a very entertaining article, I might add) is enough to set some of you off, just wait until you learn about what's happening in the rest of the world. What an embarrassing thread.

I'll send you my tears in the mail, dude. You can drink em all up.

Silky · Nov 13, 2018

It's basically a "Super SF2 > Super Turbo" kind of sequel and that's okay.

You guys are being incredibly assholish about this.

Plum · Nov 13, 2018

JigglesBunny said:
It has the same art design as Smash U while Melee and Brawl differed massively, this leads to people wrongfully assuming that it's a glorified port.

See Splatoon 2 for instance.

It's got a similar art-style but I'd personally argue that the difference between Smash Wii U and Ultimate is much greater than the difference between Splatoon 1 and 2. Ultimate has really refined pretty much every aspect of Wii U's art-style in such a way that it seems like what it should have 'always' been, Splatoon 2 is very much a more detailed Splatoon 1 with a higher resolution.

Wallach · Nov 13, 2018

jschreier said:
My god, if some light banter between a journalist and the CEO of Nintendo of America (a tiny chunk of a very entertaining article, I might add) is enough to set some of you off, just wait until you learn about what's happening in the rest of the world. What an embarrassing thread.

Or a thread on a video game forum, I guess.

Quad Lasers · Nov 13, 2018

This is a monumentally stupid argument, especially with respect to how much overlap there is between rosters across numbered fighting games.

SinkFla · Nov 13, 2018

RedHeat said:
I respect his bravery for asking the tough questions. Keep trucking, dude.

I hear Reggie's assistant will forever have her arm in a cast thanks to Stephen's "brave journalism" and karate chop skills.

GiantBreadbug · Nov 13, 2018

stephentotilo said:
Hey all. I figured people would enjoy the banter.

I'm well aware of what is new in Smash Ultimate and talk about that in the article. The point was to hear his take on whether Nintendo is at all at a disadvantage this holiday season when putting out games that some may see as enhanced ports, even if they're technically a lot more than that happening with Smash and the Let's Go Pokemon games.

Since Smash isn't some full roster change with all-new stages or some radical revamping of the series, it's not as obviously brand-new to game consumers as, say, Breath of the Wild or Mario Odyssey would be. And as I pointed out in the piece, Nintendo can port a Wii U game with very few changes--Mario Kart 8--and do great numbers with it on Switch. Hence me wanting to see what he'd say.

I think it's a disingenuous premise that plays devil's advocate for a line of argumentation that is nonsensical and holds absolutely no water under any amount of scrutiny ("... some may see as enhanced ports ..."). In addition to being, as others have already said, a premise that is disrespectful to the developers who have spend more than two years making this game and only serves to lend credibility to this insanely narrow-minded precedent. The resources are abundantly available for one to see how much work has gone into overhauling the game's visuals, mechanics, and content. "It's less new because they used Wii U as a base" is not in need of a devil's advocate because it's a bad-faith argument made by people who don't actually know what they're arguing about.

As for the bolded, literally no Smash Bros. post Melee was that. And nobody had any problem calling those sequels. Plenty of series have quite equally iterative sequels that don't have to justify themselves as such. Additionally, I'm not sure about the idea of comparing a fighting game to action adventures and platformers given their readily apparent differences both in public perception and development processes.

I cannot see the idea that "Ultimate is not as brand new as other games" manifesting in most people's minds unless they have some reason that they want to think so and go around saying so. The average person will see this as the new Smash Bros. with almost all content returning from previous games and even more new content.

Dekuman · Nov 13, 2018

KZXcellent said:
I will never understand the "It's not a new game crowd."

Smash Ultimate gives us.

12+ new characters not in Smash Wii U, which includes characters that have been absent since Brawl.
Some new stages alongside plenty of classic ones from N64, Melee, Brawl and WiiU and 3DS.
Additional Options like Hazard Toggle, Battlefield Stage Move, and Stage Morph.
An updated and improved Matchmaking system, and Battle Arena Lobby mode for Online.
Revamped Classic Mode with unique routes for EACH character as well Squad Strike and Smashdown modes.
Plenty of balance changes/updates alongside new mechanics like the Directional Air Dodge
A big story mode filled with interesting fights, RPG mechanics and BOSS FIGHTS
Spirits Mode which is a much better version of Trophies
Completely updated UI, visuals and presentation along with a ton of new music.

I don't know what Smash had to do to win the crazies over. I'm they opted for making the "UIltimate" Smash game instead of starting from scratch and giving us less everything.

I imagine if the game kept the same engine (rather than going with the new PBR engine) but made everything cel shaded, there would be no 'gotcha' Kotaku article about Reggie getting annoyed.

Totilo seems to be working based on the months long incorrect impression Smash is just a port, a genuine point of discussion back when the game was first revealed with no footage. But since then, it's been pretty clear that it's basically a brand new game that iterated on work done on 4.

Just like the iterative AssCreed, CoD, are new games.

TaleSpun · Nov 13, 2018

Mazzle said:
It's disrespectful towards Sakurai and his team to call Smash Ultimate an enhanced port.

Sakurai aren't inherently deserving of respect. It's Totilo's job to ask the questions he thinks are of value to his readers, not to try to avoid hurting Sakurai's feelings. Everyone in this equation is an adult.

Shadowrun · Nov 13, 2018

Yikes. Not sure how anyone can argue it's a port in good faith anymore. Maybe when it was first announced, and we knew nothing about it... But now, after the unveils of all the new modes/Spirits/content/engine? Nope.

JusDoIt · Nov 13, 2018

jschreier said:
My god, if some light banter between a journalist and the CEO of Nintendo of America (a tiny chunk of a very entertaining article, I might add) is enough to set some of you off, just wait until you learn about what's happening in the rest of the world. What an embarrassing thread.

It's not our brightest moment. Unfortunately, it's not our darkest moment this week either. :(

Plum · Nov 13, 2018

jschreier said:
My god, if some light banter between a journalist and the CEO of Nintendo of America (a tiny chunk of a very entertaining article, I might add) is enough to set some of you off, just wait until you learn about what's happening in the rest of the world. What an embarrassing thread.

Didn't think I'd hear the "but people are starving!" fallacy used un-ironically in this thread but here we are, I guess.

SteveWinwood · Nov 13, 2018

um actually sir the new star trek movies are sequels not reboots

lol yeah youre really sticking it to the man there stephen

RochHoch · Nov 13, 2018

Totilo is a moron for suggesting that. It's a new fucking game people, there is no logical argument to suggest otherwise.

Raijinto · Nov 13, 2018

jschreier said:
My god, if some light banter between a journalist and the CEO of Nintendo of America (a tiny chunk of a very entertaining article, I might add) is enough to set some of you off, just wait until you learn about what's happening in the rest of the world. What an embarrassing thread.

I mean what? This is a video game discussion board so we're discussing an interview with a famous video game company CEO. What do other worldly matters have to do with anything?

ZhugeEX · Nov 13, 2018

Super Smash Bros. Ultimate is just an enhanced port of Activision's Boxing for the Atari 2600.

Faabulous · Nov 13, 2018

jschreier said:
My god, if some light banter between a journalist and the CEO of Nintendo of America (a tiny chunk of a very entertaining article, I might add) is enough to set some of you off, just wait until you learn about what's happening in the rest of the world. What an embarrassing thread.

People just want to be outraged I guess.

"Smash has been derided in a throaway sentence during an interview, pitchforks everyone!!!"

WadeIt0ut · Nov 13, 2018

My favorite thing about this port is how much better Incineroar's fur looks compared to Smash 4.

Vesper · Nov 13, 2018

jschreier said:
My god, if some light banter between a journalist and the CEO of Nintendo of America (a tiny chunk of a very entertaining article, I might add) is enough to set some of you off, just wait until you learn about what's happening in the rest of the world. What an embarrassing thread.

So does Totilo not think it's port then? Just jokes?

beni12 · Nov 13, 2018

stephentotilo said:
Hey all. I figured people would enjoy the banter.

I'm well aware of what is new in Smash Ultimate and talk about that in the article. The point was to hear his take on whether Nintendo is at all at a disadvantage this holiday season when putting out games that some may see as enhanced ports, even if they're technically a lot more than that happening with Smash and the Let's Go Pokemon games.

Since Smash isn't some full roster change with all-new stages or some radical revamping of the series, it's not as obviously brand-new to game consumers as, say, Breath of the Wild or Mario Odyssey would be. And as I pointed out in the piece, Nintendo can port a Wii U game with very few changes--Mario Kart 8--and do great numbers with it on Switch. Hence me wanting to see what he'd say.

"There are hosts of other similarities and differences between Odyssey and Origins, including some that'd spoil the new game"
"A lot of the subtler differences help Odyssey feel like an improvement over the already impressive Origins, and help the new game stand apart as more than just more of the same old thing."
https://kotaku.com/what-assassin-s-creed-odyssey-changes-from-origins-1829463848
so Assassin's Creed Odyssey is a new game but smash ultimate is not?

MistaTwo · Nov 13, 2018

JusDoIt said:
With all due respect, in fact with sheer appreciation, this is exactly how I would expect a person who works at SNK to talk about SFIII. haha

What? I didn't even say anything bad about it!
3rd strike is probably one of my favorites FGs.

I low key like Street Fighter more than KOF because I am terrible at KOF. SamSho and RB2 are my jam when it comes to SNK fighting games.

I even used to use an Ibuki avatar at the old place. Lol

Spinluck · Nov 13, 2018

RedHeat said:
I respect his bravery for asking the tough questions. Keep trucking, dude.

That was a tough question?

I would've went with how garbage their online set up is.

Why question if Smash and Pokemon are new games, almost reads like a bad joke imo. Reggie doesn't care if he thinks those are new games or not, those games are going to make them BANK. Would've liked if he approached asking about this holiday line up differently.

Silky · Nov 13, 2018

Polynaut said:
Was definitely disappointed/annoyed to see this in the interview. I thought we were past the whole SmAsH uLtImAtE iS jUsT a PoRt hot takes. And even if it does have all the content from the previous games, isn't it introducing 10+ new characters? That' can't be typical of a fighting game sequel...

I mean

Street Fighter did that

Hella · Nov 13, 2018

I expect better from Stephen Totilo. Disgraceful.

Nintendo has gone above and beyond to highlight how new Smush is, and Totilo is outright rejecting this truth. For a professional journalist, it's kinda ridiculous.

glasiche · Nov 13, 2018

Fun thread to read today

SinkFla · Nov 13, 2018

jschreier said:
My god, if some light banter between a journalist and the CEO of Nintendo of America (a tiny chunk of a very entertaining article, I might add) is enough to set some of you off, just wait until you learn about what's happening in the rest of the world. What an embarrassing thread.

Uhh.. this response surely won't make things worse. :|

Aaronrules380 · Nov 13, 2018

TaleSpun said:
Sakurai aren't inherently deserving of respect. It's Totilo's job to ask the questions he thinks are of value to his readers, not to try to avoid hurting Sakurai's feelings. Everyone in this equation is an adult.

It feels like a waste of a question to me, given that even if it were an enhanced port it's not like Reggie is going to deviate from the PR stance

bmfrosty · Nov 13, 2018

Really depends on how much has to change for it to be a whole new game, doesn't it?

I mean, Gears of War 2 wasn't a new game because it used some of the same models and the engine used in Gears of War 1?

Two other games are the same because they both use Unreal Engine version X? They're both written in C?

Are Monster World and Adventure Island the same game? How about Street Fighter 2 and the Commodore 64 version of Street Fighter 2?

Are they still the same game if different versions are written from scratch?

Super Mario 64 and Super Mario 64 DS?

Ocarina of Time and Ocarina of Time 3D? The newer one was a complete rewrite as far as I know.

Where's that line?

Boiled Goose · Nov 13, 2018

How the fuck are people still saying this??

New engine. New characters. Updated old characters. Completely new spirits mode and single player campaign. Completely new classic mode.

Updated port??

WTF.

It's not even debatable at this point. You're just misinformed. This is as new a smash as any in the series.

?oe?oe · Nov 13, 2018

It's just a prank, bro.

commish · Nov 13, 2018

Mandikiri said:
I wonder what he thinks of Call Of Duty and Destiny?

You'd call Destiny 2 a port of Destiny 1? I think Destiny fans actually wish D2 was MORE of a port, haha. That's literally the biggest knock on the game at launch, that they moved too far away from D1. What a bizarre choice of games to prove whatever point you were struggling to make.

Tempy · Nov 13, 2018

jschreier said:
My god, if some light banter between a journalist and the CEO of Nintendo of America (a tiny chunk of a very entertaining article, I might add) is enough to set some of you off, just wait until you learn about what's happening in the rest of the world. What an embarrassing thread.

Is this a strawman? People can care about multiple things.

GarthLordOfTheSith · Nov 13, 2018

What a stupid ass, poorly informed argument.

the_wart · Nov 13, 2018

jschreier said:
My god, if some light banter between a journalist and the CEO of Nintendo of America (a tiny chunk of a very entertaining article, I might add) is enough to set some of you off, just wait until you learn about what's happening in the rest of the world. What an embarrassing thread.

I mean, he said a dumb thing. This is what happens when people say dumb things to the internet.

It's also what happens when people say smart things on the internet, but that doesn't happen to be the current situation.

Silky · Nov 13, 2018

I find it incredibly baffling that people insist on using examples from other games to justify Smash being a sequel instead of judging it on the merits of any other fighting game expansion

Velocity:Design:Comfort · Nov 13, 2018

SilentRob said:
I mean...do people here in this thread not realise that the reason they can put in every character ever is because they are building directly off of the Wii U version technology-wise? Do they now expect that every new Smash Bros. game from here on out will have every character ever?

The very reason they were able to pull this off is because it's a direct continuation off the Wii U version, compared to relativ re-inventions in previous iterations. That's...not a controversial statement? Well, clearly it is but it really shouldn't be.

He is basically arguing the approach of New Super Mario Bros. compared to the approach of the 3D Marios, where one is basically a new verison of the older game while the other (with the exception of Galaxy 2) is built from the ground up every time. It's really not that complicated.

You may be positively shocked to discover that Smash 4 likely started with Brawl's engine in 3D, Galaxy's grew from Sunshine's (the Wii is literally a souped up Gamecube), Skyward Sword is using Twilight Princess' engine and so on dozens of times at Nintendo. But somehow those are "reinventions"

Ororo · Nov 13, 2018

It's an enhanced port.

Deleted member 8593 · Nov 13, 2018

Spinluck said:
That was a tough question?

I would've went with how garbage their online set up is.

Why question if Smash and Pokemon are new games, almost reads like a bad joke imo. Reggie doesn't care if he thinks those are new games or not, those games are going to make them BANK. Would've liked if he approached asking about this holiday line up differently.

Yeah, it's kind of a cheap low blow that completely missed its mark. It's funny how the entire article is sort of set up in a way that makes it look like Totilo was trying to make Reggie slip up but it's all pretty weak.

Deleted member 197 · Nov 13, 2018

"But do consumers see Smash Ultimate as a new game?"

Lot of consumers probably see straight wii u ports as new games, thats all there is to say.

Kotaku's Stephen Totilo argues with Reggie that Smash Ultimate isn't a new game

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