Mark Brown ( Gamemaker's Toolkit ) review of Red Dead Redemption 2

Toriko · Nov 12, 2018

Did not see a thread for this. Lock if old. This is the review of RDR2 by one of my most favorite game critics - Mark Brown from Gamemakers toolkit. Mark is always so very insightful and even if I disagree with his criticism in some reviews I can always understand his point of view. With that being said here are some excerpts from his review that I largely agree with

Overall, I'm left pretty disappointed by the game - and that's largely because it feels staggeringly dated in its core design.

A lot has happened in open world games in the last eight years, since the release of Red Dead Redemption 1.

Shadow of Mordor focused on relationships and procedurally generated stories. Ubisoft's recent games went hard on systemic interactions to create crazy anecdotes of rampaging elephants (Far Cry) and gang warfare (Watch Dogs 2). Metal Gear Solid V took immersive sim agency into the open world. And Zelda Breath of the Wild blurred the line between the main and side quests, and built an entire chemistry system to play with.

RDR 2 has tiny pinches of this - a stranger might remember you from a sidequest. There's some light fire propagation. There are some opportunities to make choices - but for the most part, it's using the exact same structure and gameplay as the first Red Dead.

Like most Rockstar games, these missions are extremely restrictive in what you're allowed to do. The game constantly tells you what to do, with a pop up command at the bottom of the screen, and if you don't follow this script to the letter you'll be hit with a "Failed" screen.

I've failed missions for trying to flank around the bad guys - that's counted as leaving my crew behind. I've failed for trying to take enemies out using stealth, instead of loud gunfire. I've failed for trying to solve problems in creative ways. I've failed because I broke the law - never mind that I'm playing as an outlaw, and the game has a whole police response system built in.

The missions can also remove mechanics arbitrarily. In one, I wasn't allowed to take my gun off my horse. In another, I wasn't allowed to whistle for my horse so I had to chase on foot. And the bandit mask system works randomly during missions - most of the time you'll still get a huge price on your head and have to use most of your earnings from that mission to pay off your bounty.

His Overall Summary of the game

And that's despite Rockstar's extreme push towards realism. Because the game just ends up feeling like those phoney western movie sets that look like saloons and banks on one side, and unpainted planks of wood on the other. It's not fooling anyone.

Here's the thing. The game's narrative is all about trying to hold onto the old way of doing things - and sticking to practices of the past while society marches on around you. That's an interesting theme for a story - I just wish the gameplay didn't stick to it as well.

Do give the entire review a read. Def worth your time.

https://www.patreon.com/posts/22570692

CenturionNami · Nov 12, 2018

Garbage review.

Mechaplum · Nov 12, 2018

The highly scripted missions with tight fail states is definitely the thing that turned me off the game. I can get to grips with the controls, but not this. The mission design really is antithetical to the beautifully realised open world.

Xbro · Nov 12, 2018

CenturionNami said:
Garbage review.

Anything else to add?

JeffGubb · Nov 12, 2018

Great stuff.

Soul Lab · Nov 12, 2018

CenturionNami said:
Garbage review.

probably the worst first comment in a while

Toriko · Nov 12, 2018

CenturionNami said:
Garbage review.

what is the point of this post. At least post what you disagree with instead of driveby posting like this.

nDesh · Nov 12, 2018

Wow, OP you have made like 4 threads in a row with the sole purpose of shitting on RDR2.

Prolepro · Nov 12, 2018

Cant argue against those key points in the OP.

I really enjoyed the game, for what it's worth.

Phendrift · Nov 12, 2018

Haven't played the game but I figured his review would echo lots of the complaints. It really sounds like RDR2 is a technical and immersive achievement with huge attention to detail that deserves praise but underneath that lies some pretty big issues with actual game design. I feel like this is a sentiment expressed since many got their hands on it, wonder how the game will age

CenturionNami said:
Garbage review.

Garbage first post.

Ichi · Nov 12, 2018

as i read more impressions, the more i feel like this game has been divisive and really puzzled by the plethora of 10s it got. literally an overwhelming storm of perfect scores - and i never saw that much division in other titles that were rated as high or close to it.

i wonder if someone does a poll and see if RDR2 deserves the amount of praise and critical acclaim it got. remember, we are talking about pretty much a perfect score from everywhere, sitting at what, 97 metacritic?

CenturionNami · Nov 12, 2018

nDesh said:
Wow, OP you have made like 4 threads in a row with the sole purpose of shitting on RDR2.

It's confirmation bias. He finds a negative review and rushes to post it because he wants to prove himself right.

Toriko · Nov 12, 2018

nDesh said:
Wow, OP you have made like 4 threads in a row with the sole purpose of shitting on RDR2.

Lets assume that is my sole purpose in life - To shit on RDR2 ( A game I actually enjoyed enough btw inspite of my issues with the game). What does that add to the conversation in this thread?

CenturionNami said:
It's confirmation bias. He finds a negative review and rushes to post it because he wants to prove himself right.

Yes. That's my goal. Me posting this view means everyone who likes the game is wrong. Thats exactly what I said..

Like if you cannot participate in the thread and talk about the content in the OP why participate in the thread at all and shit the thread?

MillionIII · Nov 12, 2018

nDesh said:
Wow, OP you have made like 4 threads in a row with the sole purpose of shitting on RDR2.

I think that he doesn't like the game very much

capnjazz · Nov 12, 2018

Why do people act like you personally attack them if you criticize a game they like? Why do people come into threads about things they don't like only to get mad? It's almost as if you can avoid these threads all together.

stillwrapped · Nov 12, 2018

CenturionNami said:
Garbage review.

You got heat for this but I agree with you

munchie64 · Nov 12, 2018

It's not fooling anyone.

I'm pretty confident in this being factually untrue.

Interesting review though.

Phil32 · Nov 12, 2018

CenturionNami said:
Garbage review.

nDesh said:
Wow, OP you have made like 4 threads in a row with the sole purpose of shitting on RDR2.

CenturionNami said:
It's confirmation bias. He finds a negative review and rushes to post it because he wants to prove himself right.

It'll be okay. Your new favorite video game can handle the criticism and won't sell any less because of topics like this.

Deleted member 2793 · Nov 12, 2018

capnjazz said:
Why do people act like you personally attack them if you criticize a game they like? Why do people come into threads about things they don't like only to get mad? It's almost as if you can avoid these threads all together.

How dare other people not like this new shiny big AAA game

Trace · Nov 12, 2018

nDesh said:
Wow, OP you have made like 4 threads in a row with the sole purpose of shitting on RDR2.

News flash: People are allowed to both dislike the game and also post about it.

Any extremely popular game that also has glaring flaws is going to see some pushback about it (see: BotW, PUBG, Persona 5, Assassin's Creed, etc).

I'm not a fan of the way RDR2 plays either, they succeeded in making a beautiful giant open world and failed at making a fun game.

Listai · Nov 12, 2018

CenturionNami said:
Garbage review.

Garbage first comment.

Would it have been so difficult to come up with a witty drive by at least?

Toriko · Nov 12, 2018

MillionIII said:
I think that he doesn't like the game very much

I like the game. Inspite of my issues with the game. Hell I also talked about how Arthur Morgan is one of the best protagonists in gaming.

QuiteSomething · Nov 12, 2018

JEFFREY GRUBB said:
Great stuff.

#

Ichi said:
as i read more impressions, the more i feel like this game has been divisive and really puzzled by the plethora of 10s it got. literally an overwhelming storm of perfect scores - and i never saw that much division in other titles that were rated as high or close to it.

i wonder if someone does a poll and see if RDR2 deserves the amount of praise and critical acclaim it got. remember, we are talking about pretty much a perfect score from everywhere, sitting at what, 97 metacritic?

BOTW? Mario Odyssey?

litebrite · Nov 12, 2018

capnjazz said:
Why do people act like you personally attack them if you criticize a game they like? Why do people come into threads about things they don't like only to get mad? It's almost as if you can avoid these threads all together.

Because my validation as a person is uniquely tied to the critical reception of a game I loved playing. LOL

Dr. Caroll · Nov 12, 2018

CenturionNami said:
Garbage review.

Sub-standard comment on an extremely thoughtful and scathingly accurate (nobody can deny that the game's mission structure is Battlefield 3-grade linear) appraisal.

Ichi · Nov 12, 2018

Ruslnis said:
#

BOTW? Mario Odyssey?

sorry but i never saw THIS many complaints on botw and odyssey, especially the most fundamental stuff like pacing and controls, let alone the finer details like mission design and whatnot.

matrix-cat · Nov 12, 2018

Yeah, his experience pretty much mirrors my own. An absolutely wonderful world, but with incredibly restrictive and dated feeling gameplay design. Particularly, as he mentions, now that so many of RDR2's contemporaries in the open-world genre are moving towards being more freeform and giving the player much greater agency in gameplay.

I also like that I can practically hear his voice in my head as I read from having watching so many of his videos :P

Deleted member 1120 · Nov 12, 2018

He's right on rockstar sticking to their conventions.
While I really love Red Dead 2, those conventions aren't going to be to everyone's liking.

Toriko · Nov 12, 2018

Phil32 said:
It'll be okay. Your new favorite video game can handle the criticism and won't sell any less because of topics like this.

I know right? Like those poster's dont realize my opinion is in the minority and is in no way going to dent the popularity of RDR2. Not sure why they are jumping on me.

Iichter · Nov 12, 2018

Here's the thing. The game's narrative is all about trying to hold onto the old way of doing things - and sticking to practices of the past while society marches on around you. That's an interesting theme for a story - I just wish the gameplay didn't stick to it as well.

Damn that punchline. Good review that sums up what I feel about the game as well.

lucebuce · Nov 12, 2018

CenturionNami said:
Garbage review.

jb1234 · Nov 12, 2018

He makes good points and more or less jives with my experience playing the game. I don't think I'd be able to push my way through if I wasn't so captivated by the story and characters.

D.Dragoon · Nov 12, 2018

Ichi said:
sorry but i never saw THIS many complaints on botw and odyssey, especially the most fundamental stuff like pacing and controls, let alone the finer details like mission design and whatnot.

Are you joking? There were many threads criticizing Botw and Mario. Every once awhile a new one pops up even. Critically acclaimed games will invite the most criticism since they have the most eyeballs on them.

jorgeobamajr · Nov 12, 2018

Not entirely on topic, but I think it's also worth noting that apparently all of Mark Brown's reviews are going to be open for everyone on the patreon? Pretty sure I recall that announcement on Twitter. Mark Brown produces consistent quality content that chipping in on there is worth it already, but it's nice for those who can't at the moment/haven't engaged that much with his stuff.

E: sourced, though i guess this doesn't mean future reviews will be public. comments say the reviews might move to Medium from now on apparently? apologies, don't know how to get only the reply tweet.

CloseTalker · Nov 12, 2018

Yup, agree completely. Moments of brilliance for sure, but an overall extremely disappointing game.

NinjaScooter · Nov 12, 2018

I like the game but I agree with a lot of what he is saying. It does feel dated in a lot of aspects, and I'm disappointed in how so much of the mission structure is gated around shootouts or chases. Over the last 7-8 years or so open world games have sort of trained me to try and solve things in a more emergent, open fashion, and after the first few hours I realized I was going to have to turn that off. Rockstar has a very specific story to tell here, and they want you along for the ride, not necessarily directing. Which is fine. They built a very immersive and detailed world, filled with engaging and interesting characters and stories, and its' easy to get lost riding around experiencing it, but it's also hard not to be a little disappointed by that.

Deleted member 19924 · Nov 12, 2018

Why would anyone want to flank enemies in a wide open space with Rockstar's movement mechanics? That sounds horrible and clumsy.

The linear main mission structure suits the gameplay very well.

Want the former? Go play Watch Dogs or Mafia 3 at max settings on a really underpowered PC.

zma1013 · Nov 12, 2018

Restrictive missions with easy fail states are Rockstar's specialty. All of their Grand Theft Auto games have this issue. They really do need to open their missions up more and let the player experiment and do it in multiple ways.

Freedom is their games strengths... however they only give you freedom outside of missions, basically only when you're free roaming.

CloseTalker · Nov 12, 2018

CenturionNami said:
Garbage review.

Posted like one minute after the OP. Unless you're a speed reader, you're just a troll. I bet you still haven't read the full review.

piratepwnsninja · Nov 12, 2018

It'd be great if people stopped criticizing the OP and actually had a discussion about what they disagree with from the review.

He's pretty spot on in many of his criticisms based on my time with the game. It's a technical achievement, no question. But it's weirdly restrictive for an open world game. That combined with the controls was a bit of whiplash for me having just come off of the much more fluid Assassin's Creed Odyssey.

I really want to love the game more than I do. I'll stick with it a bit longer, but I don't think it will change much.

Roytheone · Nov 12, 2018

stillwrapped said:
You got heat for this but I agree with you

I mean, he will get heat for that because it is a drive by shit post, not because he disagrees with the review. You are fine to not like a review but at the very least he could explain why. Now he will just almost assuredly get banned for this.

Vaibhav · Nov 12, 2018

It makes some valid points.

But it has come down to iphone level. Lot of manufacturers exceed it in different ways. But Rockstar games always get reviews and market.

Or a more apt analogy would be legend of zelda series.

Ryuelli · Nov 12, 2018

I definitely disagree with the gameplay being bad, that's by far the best part of the game (which in the end, is all that really matters). It's a ton of fun and one of the first games in a long while that makes me actually want to take my time and explore. I'm certainly enjoying it more than the last open world game I played (Breath of the Wild) and much more than other games in the genre that never really drew me in as much as I hoped - games like The Witcher 3 and Skyrim.

My only real complaint is that the story feels one or two chapters two long. The beginning is great and it ends strong, but the middle drags a bit longer than I would like it to.

Fantastic game though, it's absolutely the best open world game in years.

Toriko · Nov 12, 2018

piratepwnsninja said:
It'd be great if people stopped criticizing the OP and actually had a discussion about what they disagree with from the review.

He's pretty spot on in many of his criticisms based on my time with the game. It's a technical achievement, no question. But it's weirdly restrictive for an open world game. That combined with the controls was a bit of whiplash for me having just come off of the much more fluid Assassin's Creed Odyssey.

I really want to love the game more than I do. I'll stick with it a bit longer, but I don't think it will change much.

If you are enjoying the story do stick with it if possible. Arthur Morgan is very well written and the payoff is worth it.

Menx64 · Nov 12, 2018

Mark Is an awesome reviewer. I'll watch the video in detail later, but I almost always agree with his views. His Zelda videos are awesome.

RestEerie · Nov 12, 2018

CenturionNami said:
Garbage review.

must the reviewer praise RDR2 as the holy grail in order for the review to be 'good'?

Mercenary09 · Nov 12, 2018

Couldn't agree more with his review. I stand by my opinion that the vast majority of critics just hand Rockstar titles a 10 and ignore the many faults that their games have. It's straight up sad the things that other open world games do better than RDR2 does and yet they didn't get the praise that it did. The issues with the game design and gameplay are why it's not even close to GOTY to me.

CloseTalker · Nov 12, 2018

piratepwnsninja said:
It'd be great if people stopped criticizing the OP and actually had a discussion about what they disagree with from the review.

He's pretty spot on in many of his criticisms based on my time with the game. It's a technical achievement, no question. But it's weirdly restrictive for an open world game. That combined with the controls was a bit of whiplash for me having just come off of the much more fluid Assassin's Creed Odyssey.

I really want to love the game more than I do. I'll stick with it a bit longer, but I don't think it will change much.

I felt the same. I put 20 hours into it, and I had to just put it down. It's frustrating because the visuals are so good, and the world is so good, but the actual game built around those things is alarmingly archaic. I mean, Rockstar's main story mechanic is still the drive and talk! Still! And that's far from the game's biggest issues, but it's telling how little Rockstar has evolved in some areas, despite being industry leaders in others.

Mercenary09 said:
Couldn't agree more with his review. I stand by my opinion that the vast majority of critics just hand Rockstar titles a 10 and ignore the many faults that their games have. It's straight up sad the things that other open world games do better than RDR2 does and yet they didn't get the praise that it did. The issues with the game design and gameplay are why it's not even close to GOTY to me.

Agreed. I'm halfway through AC Odyssey, and while it's far from a perfect game, it does quite a few things just as well as any Rockstar title (and a few even better, imo). No one will admit it, but Rockstar gets a huge pass for its legacy.

Trace · Nov 12, 2018

piratepwnsninja said:
I really want to love the game more than I do.

This line really resonates with me. I want to love RDR2, I want to see it as the groundbreaking, GotG, amazing game that some people on Era post like it is, but I'm just not enjoying playing it.

Amazing world, best I've ever seen in a video game. Best graphics I've ever seen on console. Movement and aiming that feels like it's from 2003 and quest design that feels like it's from 2008. Such a strange disparity.

elektrocats · Nov 12, 2018

Phil32 said:
It'll be okay. Your new favorite video game can handle the criticism and won't sell any less because of topics like this.

Thank god. This game has been pretty great for what it is. I don't think this game was meant for everyone and hopefully Rockstar realizes that instead of caving to the minority and ruining the brand.

Mark Brown ( Gamemaker's Toolkit ) review of Red Dead Redemption 2

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