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Dreamboum

Member
Oct 28, 2017
22,865
It's quite fascinating that Cross has made such a departure on Trigger's simplistic battle system. What could be enjoyed by all has been replaced by a deep and complex battle system that needs a lot of work to learn.

But despite being such a solid battle system, I almost never hear of it when it comes to battle system discussion, in fact I even get to hear quite weird arguments against it. There is a lot of things it does right:

  • You can escape from every fight with 100% accuracy. The battle system being about fine-tuning your deck to fight back, the game allows you to escape even from boss fights, leaving you the ability to go into the menu, change your strategy, and then fight back. You don't have to suffer a game over because you messed up something, and it's a HUGE change.
  • Grinding has been neutered. Most of your stats comes from beating bosses. You get slight stat boost from fighting random battles, but it comes at a point where you will not get any stat boost until you defeat the next boss.
Here's how the battle system works:
  • Element system allows for several things: there is no MP management, you manage the use of your elements that are refreshed every battle with the exception of consumables. This means that you can go for your strongest attacks immediately at every battle. But this also means that you need to have extreme confidence in the way the battle is going to play out, lest you waste your elements and are left with weaker ones.
  • The Grid has several levels that informs the power of your elements. Elements at a level 5 Grid are much stronger than ones at level 1 Grid. But, you have to get there. This means that you have to earn a power level proportional to the level of the element.
  • Attacking increases the power level, and there are 3 levels of attacks that have different levels of accuracy. Level 1 has the highest amount of accuracy, but only give 1 point of power level. Level 2 and 3 have both worse accuracy, BUT starting with level 1 increases the accuracy of level 2 and 3 respectively. This means that you are given a choice : do you start with a higher level at the risk of missing and not receiving anything ? Or do you start with level 1 and use the accuracy boost for the subsequent levels.
  • Stamina is probably the best thing out of the bunch. You earn Stamina either by defending or when your turn comes up. This stamina is used to attack, and the attacks increases your power level for the Grid. Stamina is what informs everything about the battle system and allows for a huge amount of strategy.
  • Lastly, there is the field effect. Each element has an effect (Red, Yellow, Blue, Green White, Black) and using an element fills one bar of the field effect (composed of three). One element is opposed to another one, which means that using a blue element will be decreased in power heavily when the field effect is red. The fight then becomes a tug-of-war where you sometimes have to use another element just to prevent the enemy to have a field effect to their advantage.
This means that at every stage of the battle, you have to think about several things in order to optimize your fight. But if you solve the battle system, then the only answer left is to effectively use your best strategy all the time, right ?

This is where the game is lying to you. Attack accuracy is lower than what is shown on the screen. This means that risk-taking is much higher than you think. But why is the game doing this ?

It's because the battle system understands that it truly shines when things don't go exactly your way. Adapting to the situation is when the game really elevates itself to be truly engaging and nerve-wracking. Your attack misses and you can't have the element you needed, then it opens up to so many possibilities : do you defend to wait for your next turn coming faster and regain stamina, or do you for a weaker element, or do you go all in and take a level 2 or 3 attack and hope for the best ? Even then, what about your teammates ? The field effect ? Should you really try it ? Or maybe run away and come back when you have fine-tuned your strategy further ?

The crux of the battle system is about taking risks, and being rewarded for it. Walking this fine line between playing it safe and taking risks is the great quality of the battle system, and I think it's something quite rare in the genre for a game to force situations where you have to think outside your comfort zone.

The battle system is really something I enjoyed, and it really gives the oomph for the game to be rewarding and engaging. You don't win by grinding your way to victory, you win by outsmarting your opponent. Really great gameplay.
 

Plinko

Member
Oct 28, 2017
18,575
To me, it's the best RPG battle system I've ever played. What an amazing game.
 

CloseTalker

Member
Oct 25, 2017
30,649
Chrono Cross is one of my favorite games of all time. The setting and art direction is incredible. If they announced an HD remake, I'd lose my fucking mind (as long as they don't touch that perfect OST)
 

Makoto Yuki

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,432
One of my favorites. Loved being able to increase/decrease the speed in New Game Plus.
 

BriGuy

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,275
Meh. I miss techs, double techs and triple techs. I guess they're technically there, but they're severely diminished in number and utility. Also, the glut of characters means you can conceivably play through the whole game without even knowing they exist.
 
Oct 27, 2017
487
I love it too. It's one of my favorite games, and back in the day I replayed it to death. I specially like the first two points in the OP as they really break the usual conventions and are great for someone like me who loathes grinding.
 

Renteka-Bond

Chicken Chaser
Member
Dec 28, 2017
4,271
Clearwater, Florida
Chrono Cross is my favorite JRPG of all time, so I agree with everything you said. If there was any game I'd want to see get a modern update, it'd be this one, as the system is a bit sluggish now due to age (It also runs slower on Vita for some dumb reason). Sadly, while I recall having difficulty with it in the past, the game itself is pretty easy once you get it down (of course, I've beaten it like a dozen times, so maybe I'm biased). Of course, that could also be the beauty of it.

2 particular fights I recall giving me a hefty amount of trouble as a kid were the Dwarf/Hydra fights and the Sun-of-a-Gun fight. The first is a fight that really tests your understanding of crowd control while the latter is a boss that actually has a very low amount of HP (200, iirc) but a lot of defense and debuffs.
 

DiipuSurotu

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
53,148
Great thread. Fun fact: the game's battle system actually has a name just like Active Time Battle. It's "Cross Sequence Battle".

IMO the battle system has a few flaws that could have been fixed in the game or in any sequel or successor:

  • The inaccurate hit percentage is not fun. They should have shown us the real percentage IMO.

  • You can put Elements of a given level on a different level of your grid, but this is mostly useless. A Level 3 Element will always be more powerful than a Level 1[+2] Element.

  • Summons and combo attacks are underused. The Field Effect is also largely inconsequential, because the game is too easy. But this is a problem that concerns most Square games of that era (including Chrono Trigger). On the other hand, status effects are very important which is cool.

  • Some spell animations are so long that I literally avoided using them (like the earthquake spell that crushes enemies with three huge rectangular pillars). But again, this is a problem that affected most Square games.
Anyway, by far the best feature of the game's battle system is making physical attacks generally more powerful than magic spells. This is unlike the usual Final Fantasy games where you would always just spam magic instead of doing physical attacks.
 

Wes D. Mess

Avenger
Aug 11, 2018
1,553
Chicago
I remember being disappointed initially that the gameplay wasn't like Chrono Trigger but wound up enjoying it.

I should replay this again when I have the chance.
 

Mandos

Member
Nov 27, 2017
30,962
Looking forward to finally give this a go, got it going on my ps3 a while back, but that went MIA after a move, so I'll have to wait till I get something else setup
 

DiipuSurotu

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
53,148
I swear to god I beat this game but never fully understood it's battle system

Chrono Cross is from a time when games didn't hold your hand and expected you to figure things on your own.

That said, the game's manual is actually pretty detailed, and Radius gives your an optional tutorial at the start of the game.
 

Doggg

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Nov 17, 2017
14,455
Collecting new elemental attacks or whatever was cool. I recall there being a number of bosses (albeit not every boss) who put some really good challenges, and beating them was definitely more a matter of strategy than just grinding.
 
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BassForever

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
29,939
CT
I found the combat really boring and setting up characters to be a slog. Most of the time 3 attack 3 attack spell repeat was enough to incinerate most bosses. For 90% of the game a 3 attack still had like an 80% chance to hit which made it worth the risk. That was ignoring half of my time which was spent trying to figure out which of my 40 party members were actually worth using.
 

Ether_Snake

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
11,306
I remember nothing of how it played, only that the story was complete junk compared to CT and came out really disappointed:(
 

DiipuSurotu

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
53,148
You can tell the Seiken Densetsu 3 folks worked on this game with how showy and cinematic some of the spell animations are.
 
Oct 26, 2017
7,963
South Carolina
I appreciate the justification being listed for 100% battle escape; far too often people addictd to crutches will just dejectedly demand it in a fit. Thanks, OP

Also note the -/+ Stamina feature, another thing Bravely Default didn't do first.

I never knew about the explicitly wrong accuracy! That's a flagrant foul of game design, no doubt.

Meh. I miss techs, double techs and triple techs. I guess they're technically there, but they're severely diminished in number and utility. Also, the glut of characters means you can conceivably play through the whole game without even knowing they exist.

"Knowing of it" rather than "knowing it"

Never play a CRPG then read a guide; you'd explode.
 

Wandu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,163
I like the battle theme and music. It also made you feel like you could do combos. I especially liked the %-to-hit.
 

cervanky

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,296
I agree with what you wrote OP, it's a fun and well designed battle system. My biggest problem is that the game, like so so many JRPGs, is too easy. There's rarely a challenge that requires mastery over these mechanics so it never really gets a chance to shine. I can totally ignore field effects without consequence.

You can beat most of the game without really understanding anything about the battle system and that shouldn't be the case (or at least they should give the player a difficulty setting if they want to keep it accessible).

2 particular fights I recall giving me a hefty amount of trouble as a kid were the Dwarf/Hydra fights and the Sun-of-a-Gun fight.
Oh yeah. This is an exception to what I wrote, then. I remember those being harder fights! I had a friend who stopped playing because Sun-of-a-Gun stumped her, but that maybe also goes to show that the game didn't really require you to understand how battles worked until it suddenly did. Should've had some more challenging fights earlier to ramp things up a bit better.
 

Kreve

Design Director
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
238
This song is playing in my head on loop as I read this thread.

 

Treasure Silvergun

Self-requested ban
Banned
Dec 4, 2017
2,206
Yep, it's great. And it's even better with battles not being random.

True, the game is generally easy and what little "grinding" it allows can make it even easier. On the other hand, boss battles will catch you unprepared since the early game. I always, always have trouble with the Wingapede, and Miguel requires either perfect preparation or a bit of luck to get through because he's brutal. Late game is quite a cakewalk though, unless you're trying to, say, steal from the Black Dragon. And most optional bosses are only devastating until you understand the gimmick, then they become just an exercise in patience.

Anyway, I don't need JRPGs to be too challenging because I'm mostly in for the journey. And CC is a spectacular, unforgettable journey.
 

DiipuSurotu

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
53,148

NG+ had a fast forward function akin to what Square added to the FF12 remaster. It makes the game much more enjoyable.

Yup, pressing R2 speeds up the game in NG+. What's also fun (dunno if FF12 does it) is that pressing L2 slows down the game, which I like to do during Serge's Dash&Slash animation just to make it look cooler, lol.

Apparently this kind of speed manipulation feature is hard to implement without breaking everything on the programmer's side, which is why only a handful of console games have it.
 

Skulldead

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,450
I agree with what you wrote OP, it's a fun and well designed battle system. My biggest problem is that the game, like so so many JRPGs, is too easy. There's rarely a challenge that requires mastery over these mechanics so it never really gets a chance to shine. I can totally ignore field effects without consequence.

You stole my word, never had to understand the combat for 1 exception near the end, it was a total push over. You don't need to understand 50% of the combat system to be able to beat the game. You can have the best combat system ever, but if you never let the player use it to full potential, then there no reason to make it so complex. I think Grandia 2 is another perfect exemple that easy game can ruin a great and complex combat system.
 

Coinspinner

Member
Nov 6, 2017
2,154
I never understood how the "turn" mechanics worked. I didn't get what exactly determined the other that characters acted in, and why sometimes enemies would interrupt your turns. There's probably a mechanics faq for that now, but it's too late.

Dario and Miguel were the only fights I recall being really tough, but even those were just "tough normal boss" level threats. Still enjoyable to play though.
 

DiipuSurotu

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
53,148
I never understood how the "turn" mechanics worked. I didn't get what exactly determined the other that characters acted in, and why sometimes enemies would interrupt your turns. There's probably a mechanics faq for that now, but it's too late.

Dario and Miguel were the only fights I recall being really tough, but even those were just "tough normal boss" level threats. Still enjoyable to play though.

The turns progress essentially like Final Fantasy Tactics and Final Fantasy X. If you understand those, Chrono Cross is basically the same (as far as time progression is concerned; Chrono Cross obviously has a lot of differences as far as the other aspects of the battle system are concerned).
 
OP
OP
Dreamboum

Dreamboum

Member
Oct 28, 2017
22,865
I agree with what you wrote OP, it's a fun and well designed battle system. My biggest problem is that the game, like so so many JRPGs, is too easy. There's rarely a challenge that requires mastery over these mechanics so it never really gets a chance to shine. I can totally ignore field effects without consequence.

You can beat most of the game without really understanding anything about the battle system and that shouldn't be the case (or at least they should give the player a difficulty setting if they want to keep it accessible).

Honestly, I know the battle system like the back of my hand and unless I cheese it, I always had trouble with many of the bosses. I can't believe someone playing it for the first time would steamroll against bosses like Miguel and Garai for example.

Not only that but enemy encounters are more about gimmicks than a challenge, so you have to learn the battle system to advance.

You stole my word, never had to understand the combat for 1 exception near the end, it was a total push over. You don't need to understand 50% of the combat system to be able to beat the game. You can have the best combat system ever, but if you never let the player use it to full potential, then there no reason to make it so complex. I think Grandia 2 is another perfect exemple that easy game can ruin a great and complex combat system.

Not knowing half of the battle system would mean not knowing about Stamina, or the grid positioning, or even elements. That's impossible, you have to learn to advance. I have never seen a single person just put all their best elements on the highest level of the grid and get by effortlessly. You might get by not caring about field effect, but even then you're just making the experience worse for yourself.

I think we're veering hard into hyperbole territory. Many of the opinions I've heard about the game didn't include it being easy, it's in fact a noticeably more challenging game than any of the numbered Final Fantasy on the same system. I consider myself to be proficient enough in the genre to get by, and Cross still gave me a fair amount of trouble, that you can't bypass through grinding too.
 

DiipuSurotu

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
53,148
Hot take?

Both CC and CT suffer bad standard battle themes. CT's is a little bland (it's...fine) but CC's is just.... so loud.

Yasunori Mitsuda is one of the best video game composers ever but battle themes are definitely not his forte.

Sad thing is, the Radical Dreamers version of "Gale" was actually okay.

 
OP
OP
Dreamboum

Dreamboum

Member
Oct 28, 2017
22,865
Hot take?

Both CC and CT suffer bad standard battle themes. CT's is a little bland (it's...fine) but CC's is just.... so loud.

I agree. I don't dislike them, but they were never rousing or anything. I'd say the same about boss theme too. You had to wait until Shadow Hearts for Mitsuda to come up with a truly great (regular) boss theme in my opinion

 

Rutger

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,309
It was certainly interesting, however also kind of a mess and the game itself didn't push me to where I felt like I needed to learn how to make the most out of it. That keeps me from thinking fondly of it, that and the awful standard battle theme, I ended up wanting to avoid fights.
 

TripaSeca

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,762
São Paulo
It is definitely one of my favorite games of all time and Ican't help but wonder why this battle system hasn't been used anywhere else ever since.
 

Syril

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,895
Controlling your power level so heavily did let them do some actually good challenge for bosses, though I remember normal battles being pretty easy overall. The weakest party of the system for me was having to set up element grids manually, which made me never want to change party members.
Great thread. Fun fact: the game's battle system actually has a name just like Active Time Battle. It's "Cross Sequence Battle".
Japanese RPGs love making up names for battle systems. Check out Tales and all the variations of "Linear Motion Battle System" they came up with.
 

Man God

Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,306
It's weird but one of my favorite turn based systems ever. It's not even that hard to learn but it is tricky as hell to explain to someone without demonstrating. Anyone shown it will get it in like three battles though.
 

Blackquill

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
783
I honestly like how unique it this, but man, in practice, it just doesn't hold up. I spammed my best elements for the entire game without a second thought and it worked, it just wasn't balanced, I get what they wanted to do, but I steamrolled without any investement it's sad.