P5 is a game about how much adults sucks and only kids can set thongs straight. Don't know how many times Ryuji talks down about adults. I don't think the games is for adults at all.
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Persona 5 is game for adults in which you date children.
- Thread starter Cryptosporidium
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The problematic gameification of romance is one thing, but this thinly veiled paedophillia accusation is really pathetic moral panic.
Why is a 'vessel' player character any different to a film character who is made for the audience to specifically identify with? Or what about a game like Life is Strange, where Max's characterisation is quite light touch in order for the player to project their own thoughts and feelings, which is central to any game based on player choice?
Also, what on earth is wrong with characters dating, when they are of the age where the vast, vast majority of people are dating? You say "children" but these are teenagers, above the age of consent. Is your implication that dirty old men are buying Persona 5 to live out their fantasies?
Finally, what is wrong with an adult playing a narrative in which some teenagers date? I absolutely love teen rom coms, and teen romances, because I was a somewhat romantic and wistful teenager who had some very intense relationships that I will always feel nostalgic about. It's fun to revisit those feelings and themes, whether it's through stuff like Your Name, Juno, Orange, Love Simon, Angus Thongs and Perfect Snogging, Show Me Love, Gregory's Girl, Moonlight, Whip It, Beautiful Thing etc, or through games like Persona, Stardew Valley or Life is Strange.
As I said, the gameification of romance is definitely troublesome, but it's really sad that teen romance stories are deemed 'problematic' in the video game sphere because of the fear that some pervs are getting sexual gratification from it.
Finally some common sense in this thread.
Why is a 'vessel' player character any different to a film character who is made for the audience to specifically identify with? Or what about a game like Life is Strange, where Max's characterisation is quite light touch in order for the player to project their own thoughts and feelings, which is central to any game based on player choice?
Also, what on earth is wrong with characters dating, when they are of the age where the vast, vast majority of people are dating? You say "children" but these are teenagers, above the age of consent. Is your implication that dirty old men are buying Persona 5 to live out their fantasies?
Finally, what is wrong with an adult playing a narrative in which some teenagers date? I absolutely love teen rom coms, and teen romances, because I was a somewhat romantic and wistful teenager who had some very intense relationships that I will always feel nostalgic about. It's fun to revisit those feelings and themes, whether it's through stuff like Your Name, Juno, Orange, Love Simon, Angus Thongs and Perfect Snogging, Show Me Love, Gregory's Girl, Moonlight, Whip It, Beautiful Thing etc, or through games like Persona, Stardew Valley or Life is Strange.
As I said, the gameification of romance is definitely troublesome, but it's really sad that teen romance stories are deemed 'problematic' in the video game sphere because of the fear that some pervs are getting sexual gratification from it.
Finally some common sense in this thread.
Yeah, this is the reason I tend to stay away from JRPGs now that I'm older. When I was in high school, it was fine because most of the females in these games looked like the girls I dated back then, but as I got older it just made me uncomfortable. Example, I used to love Harvest Moon and played the hell out of them... but once I hit my mid 20's, playing a game where I had to seduce a girl who looked like she was 12 to marry her and have kids was just odd. A part of me didn't want to marry any of these girl, and I know it's just a game, but it was weird for me and eventually I stopped playing them.
While I don't think the intention is that in Japan. I think the end result in the West is that adults mostly play it. That said, you're making the assumption that everyone puts themselves into the character, which isn't true at all since you can't customise the character to represent you.
Regardless of who the game was aimed at though, I think the game is rather questionable with some of it's romance options and I think that is the discussion that should be had. The doctor and the reporter are a bit weird, the reporters one even mentions the relationship being taboo but the game goes along with it... However, I think the worst ones to me are definitely Kawakami and Futaba. I just can't get behind either of those two being in the game at all.
Regardless of who the game was aimed at though, I think the game is rather questionable with some of it's romance options and I think that is the discussion that should be had. The doctor and the reporter are a bit weird, the reporters one even mentions the relationship being taboo but the game goes along with it... However, I think the worst ones to me are definitely Kawakami and Futaba. I just can't get behind either of those two being in the game at all.
Says who? Really its a game for teens (I played persona when I was under 20 years old, unlike what op has claimed), you play as a teen who is + or - 1 year from the rest of the cast, and there is no sexual encounters like say Witcher which would be the real issue. You have to grow with them as a person to enter into a fairly wholesome relationship after spending time with them, its a weird criticism to level against a game that its well, gamey. There is no imbalance in the power dynamic, its not instantaneous, the less attention you give the longer it will take, really it does a decent enough job, better than most games imo. OP really is misrepresenting the game like crazy here.
Catherine should spin off into a more mature take on Persona with puzzle dungeons and shit. So basically Catherine with RPG elements...
I'd cop, even if it meant they had to axe it down like 2-3 dungeons for quality and time purposes, P5 went on too long and P4 kinda dragged even though the story was more compelling so I gave it a pass.
I'd cop, even if it meant they had to axe it down like 2-3 dungeons for quality and time purposes, P5 went on too long and P4 kinda dragged even though the story was more compelling so I gave it a pass.
This is basically what it comes down to. There's a ton of media featuring teens dating and having sex but adults aren't considered pedophiles for watching Riverdale.
I'm curious what about Futaba's character makes someone think Joker should be working on a romance with her. I didn't even know she was a 'romance' possibility until this thread. Yikes.
I mean, sure, if you ignore the older media style of "you know what's happening over here. We won't say directly, but you all know." There's plenty of that kind of intimacy involved. The MC also gets faced down as though they're a cheating bastard if you agree to take things over level 10 with more than one person.
I'll say that there's a lot to like about Persona style social links, but there's also a lot of bullshit. I love the franchise, but see no need to gloss over the series' flaws just because I think they're great games. One of those major flaws is that you can accumulate intimacy step by step, that all relationships are about progress towards further intimacy, and that relationships with members of the opposite sex can almost inevitably progress to intimacy. This is accompanied by a really juvenile attitude towards attraction, which in P5's case is manifest in the age range of characters you can date. Hang out with someone enough times and they'll give you the option to "get closer" or whatever it is. That lends an unfortunate structure to some otherwise good storytelling through the social link system. If, at the end, all these stories have to culminate in romance, that sure limits the range of stories that can be told.
A lot of people jumped ship from Futaba x Joker the moment they played the game themselves. I agree that Joker is a much better suited brother figure than someone who Futaba dates.
That is factually incorrect, that demo makes up less than a quarter of players
Yeah, Futaba as a romance option was always pretty questionable to me too. I'll give people who chose her the benefit of the doubt and assume they just liked the idea of shared interests until given reason to believe worse of them, but it was one of the more iffy romances in the game to me alongside Kawakami
Persona 5 is a game made for teenagers that can be played by adults. That's it. The demography maybe be different on the west but in Japan most of them are people on their 14-18 years and it's those that are the target audience.
And how's that any different than Persona 4 and 3? Both also had dating.
And how's that any different than Persona 4 and 3? Both also had dating.
This is all subjective, nothing in the game supports that
Probably one of the best slinks in the game is really what it comes down to, her character growth is probably the best out of the cast as well as having a fun personality.
While you did present interesting points, I disagree.
Mainly, as others said, you are playing as a teen. This is his story, not yours. He isn't a vessel for you. With your argument you can apply it to any rpg, such as any FF game (all teenagers btw).
Secondly, in high school did you romance no one of similar age? Him being a high schooler means he will find a crush around his age. Of course there are some outliers (doctor, teacher) but given the narrative developed between them you can see how it caused a romance to develop. Point is, it's common for high schoolers to fall for other high schoolers.
Also the last point of you have yet to meet anyone over 20 who played the game is your take?
I was 28 when I played the game on US release. I know others who I developed friendships with because of this game (online) and met in them irl as well over their 20s. Also my coworkers irl are over their 20s and 4 of them played the game too.
While you do make interesting points I think you are over analyzing quite a bit OP.
Nah, I hardly disagree with you, OP.
In my view, for adults, it's just a nostalgia vessel, to relive some of the fond memories you had as a teenager in high school. Everything is framed with the focus of a teenager living high school, you have to study, go to school, well, live the regular year of a teenager, and do some demon hunting in your free time.
I can't see how the game is supposed to be an enabler for pedophiles. It's just recreating in a very joyful and simple way the life and vibes of high school. Of course people with the wrong mind can use with other intentions, but then it's hardly a problem of the media itself, you would have to ban any movie that depicts school in any way if that was the case.
This article in kotaku goes along the way I see the Persona games:
https://kotaku.com/the-best-thing-about-persona-isnt-the-fighting-or-mit-793756763
In my view, for adults, it's just a nostalgia vessel, to relive some of the fond memories you had as a teenager in high school. Everything is framed with the focus of a teenager living high school, you have to study, go to school, well, live the regular year of a teenager, and do some demon hunting in your free time.
I can't see how the game is supposed to be an enabler for pedophiles. It's just recreating in a very joyful and simple way the life and vibes of high school. Of course people with the wrong mind can use with other intentions, but then it's hardly a problem of the media itself, you would have to ban any movie that depicts school in any way if that was the case.
This article in kotaku goes along the way I see the Persona games:
https://kotaku.com/the-best-thing-about-persona-isnt-the-fighting-or-mit-793756763
Yeah, that one is the worst of the bunch for me, especially in terms of storytelling. Futaba is a really interesting character, and, with her introduction to the gang, makes for an interesting surrogate sister or mentee. She looks up to Joker. So to have all of that, which I think is established really well, have to lead towards the option to romance just retrospectively twists the themes of the story and relationship. It's putting a game rule (that social links with female characters have to have a romance option) before good story and character.
i don't understand why when it is about violence nothing matters , if characters kill endless people and joking about that it is fun but for these things ... "save the children" cit
No, OP, you are not actually dating them. The main character - who is a teenager aswell - is dating teenagers, if you choose to do so. Plus there is nothing graphic or intimate about it whatsoever.
Do you also shield your eyes when teens in a movie/show are kissing?
Do you also shield your eyes when teens in a movie/show are kissing?
Out of all the female characters, she was the only one that actually expressed any kind of affection towards Joker first, so that's the road I went down. Maybe it's something about growing up without much family, but I never saw it as any kind of siblingish relationship until after I finished playing and started reading reactions online.
Personally I saw it as a role playing game where you play the role of a straight, male, Japanese teenager and I made decisions in ways I felt were true to the character. I don't agree that you're meant to insert yourself into the game, if you were it'd have a character creator.
Same, it's one of the reasons I want them to do a Persona game in college.
The adult relationships are definitely, undeniably creepy, same goes for some of the character designs, but the romantic relationships with your party aren't that dissimilar to romantic depictions in pretty much any young adult novel. Sure, you have agency in them, but it's not Hot Coffee we're talking about. Was it outrageous when Harry Potter showed obvious attraction to his classmates? Those books and films have been consumed by more than just teenagers.
Do some fans take it too far? Sure! But I think it's very moral-panicky to act like it's some act of filthy corruption to watch some high schoolers experience tame relationships.
Do some fans take it too far? Sure! But I think it's very moral-panicky to act like it's some act of filthy corruption to watch some high schoolers experience tame relationships.
I had a friend I recommended Avatar the Last Airbender to, and he told me he felt awkward when the characters kissed lol
I always tend to live in the role of what ever character I'm playing. I never project myself in to a character, I base all my actions and reactions on how I imagine the character would act.
OP
OP
I never said all these games were inherently problematic
rather I pointed out why P5 is specifically problematic
Don't worry: Your post is far less tasteful than anything you'll encounter in Persona 5.
Hmm OK - there are probably people that get off to putting themselves in the avatars shoes and dating 16 year olds. I see the avatar as a character whose fate I partially control. I find it more problematic that there are adult female characters that hit on the 16 year old avatar and become dependent on them. It's not the games fault that its relationship system is a turn on for perverts.
So is it degenerate to date an adult as an adult roleplaying as a teenager in a video game about high schoolers or degenerate to date teenagers as an adult roleplaying as a teenager in a video game about high schoolers?
You're running off flawed logic here, a teenager shouldn't have romantic relations with his/her peers because it's you playing as them? Keep in mind while we do make choices and such there are canon interpretations of every one of the protagonists in adaptations and the like. It's a role playing game, if you don't want to date anyone because you feel like a child molester doing so then don't but understand that you are not yourself but this character who is in fact not an adult.
If you're projecting yourself onto the character you're supposed to be in the shoes of as opposed to acting within what a character in this position might then that's your problem, not anyone else's.
The main character is the same age as the other characters. Why are you projecting your age on him?
Don't worry, Sony will make sure it doesn't happen again going by recent events.
On a serious note it doesn't strike me as anything weirder than something like Skins or Riverdale where characters are portrayed by older actors and are definitely not treated like children. Those are/were both aimed at teens too, despite any periphery demographics.
yeah it's fucking terrible. tons of discussions, "waifu wars", massive posts about "this girl" and "that girl" when I believe we can all agree that Shogi Girl is the only correct choice
Yeah it's weird af. Doesn't help disprove the stereotype.
All these people saying "but my character is 16!!!!", ok sure buddy. Explain the creepy cultism among the adult players then.
All these people saying "but my character is 16!!!!", ok sure buddy. Explain the creepy cultism among the adult players then.
I mean, like, looking at it in depth though, what are people even supposed to get turned on by? The implication of sex? (does that ever even happen? If it did, I don't remember.) Hand holding? Do those guys even kiss at any point?
Persona is quite clearly aimed at teenagers.
Just a quick glance at the writing and the themes in the game could've showed you that.
Just a quick glance at the writing and the themes in the game could've showed you that.
I can't really comment on P5 but I would agree that generally Japanese games specifically are guilty of some of the worst and creepiest expressions of misogyny in video games.
It's interesting how if a game excels at art or music, that for some reason we are willing to give it a pass on "maybe a scene here or there" where a peeping tom preys upon unknowing women, or an underaged girl is lusted after, or a female is used as an explicit reward.
I once wrote an extensive thead on games' media's gross double standard when it comes to Japanese games, with an emphasis on the VR game "Summer Lesson", and was heavily chastised for not "understanding Japanese culture". I say fuck that, the games are sold worldwide and they aren't immune to critique from cultures' which have learned respect for women.
Imagine a Persona game that sincerely sought to convey the experience of being a teenager through the eyes of an actual teenager, and not through the transparently lewd perspective of a sexually-depraved adult.
It's interesting how if a game excels at art or music, that for some reason we are willing to give it a pass on "maybe a scene here or there" where a peeping tom preys upon unknowing women, or an underaged girl is lusted after, or a female is used as an explicit reward.
I once wrote an extensive thead on games' media's gross double standard when it comes to Japanese games, with an emphasis on the VR game "Summer Lesson", and was heavily chastised for not "understanding Japanese culture". I say fuck that, the games are sold worldwide and they aren't immune to critique from cultures' which have learned respect for women.
Imagine a Persona game that sincerely sought to convey the experience of being a teenager through the eyes of an actual teenager, and not through the transparently lewd perspective of a sexually-depraved adult.
I'm glad they added the option not to pursue romance. But the it's very clear that the game just wants you to take the romance options. The female characters kind of just throw themselves at you without you doing much to earn their affection. I don't understand why more effort isn't made into writing better scenarios based on how you can respond. Most of the dialogue doesn't have VA so it just comes down to effort. It would go a long way to cutting back on the creep aspect.
It's unfortunate that there isn't another series quiet like this one. I love the time management aspects and just find the overall gameplay style very immersive. I see threads pop up all the time about the game being too long and I kind don't understand at all. I'm pretty sure I'm close to the end and I'm a little sad it's almost over.
Unless they move away from the HS setting I don't know if I would be able to play the next one however. It can get a little... uncomfortable at times.
It's unfortunate that there isn't another series quiet like this one. I love the time management aspects and just find the overall gameplay style very immersive. I see threads pop up all the time about the game being too long and I kind don't understand at all. I'm pretty sure I'm close to the end and I'm a little sad it's almost over.
Unless they move away from the HS setting I don't know if I would be able to play the next one however. It can get a little... uncomfortable at times.
I don't feel like I'm projecting myself into the character, I just watch how he goes about daily life and make choices that I feel fits the character.
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