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Oct 25, 2017
12,018
Most frequently, it's used as a trump card to immediately call a halt to any discussion about race and that's fine if all you really want to do is repeat the same talking points ad nauseam amongst yourselves but intellectually, it's completely vapid.
This is a lie.

If the phrase "white fragility" makes you wanna stop talking about race, that's a problem with you, not the phrase. Say what you wanna say on the subject and be prepared to be challenged on it or stop whining and leave the conversation, but do not stick around just to talk about how you can't talk.
 

Rondras

Banned
Aug 28, 2018
538
Want to see white frigility in action? Go to the comments in the last Ice Cube instagram post about Trump.

Cube """"""fans""""" crying cause he wants Trump arrested. I'm seeing so much stupidity from "not racist" people there that I wish I wasnt part of the same species as them.
 

Spinluck

▲ Legend ▲
Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
28,469
Chicago
White male fragility is a damn thing, though.

I do not understand the inability to simply remove or exempt yourself if it doesn't apply to you. You know yourself better than any of us do, and you are the things that you do. So say what you want to say... Do not blame your fear of moderation on why you won't voice your true views. Shit, I'd take the ban for you but that's probably not allowed!

So if you choose to completely ignore the two innocuous videos posted earlier in the thread that offer some great insight and perspective (completely separate from ERA), and come in here on the defensive/offensive, then what does that make you when it comes to the topic at hand? Those videos by the way offer perspective from a panel of black people (and Megan Kelly :lol) and a white man...
 

Airegin

Member
Dec 10, 2017
3,900
Thank you so much, when you get time def check out the Tim Wise video.

I know it's long, but he has an incredible grasp on the issue.

I will definitely check it out tomorrow. A month from now I'll have to explain to a lot of people why dressing up in blackface as a white old man's servant (black pete) is a tradition that needs to die.
 

RoaminRonin

Member
Nov 6, 2017
5,769
Want to see white frigility in action? Go to the comments in the last Ice Cube instagram post about Trump.

Cube """"""fans""""" crying cause he wants Trump arrested. I'm seeing so much stupidity from "not racist" people there that I wish I wasnt part of the same species as them.

How the fuck can anyone claim to be a fan of Ice Cube and think he would be a supporter of Trump... some people are just so fucking stupid.
 

Buttzerker

Powerhouse Protector / Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,017
I have always felt that when people use that term on this forum was a little hypocritical. Especially considering deviating from of the accepted point of view would often result in a ban. All too often this comes off as just shut up and listen. It's just a snarky label that really doesn't help any debate.

"Shut up and listen" is kind of the point, though. There's no debate to be had. White people [myself included] need to shut the hell up and listen when POC are trying to tell us about the effects of racism.
 

PaperSparrow

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,023
If you get hung up on the term "white fragility", you need to do some introspection on how much you actually care about racism. You're more concerned about being seen as a bad person than stopping bad things from happening.

I mean, I get it. I'm a white person who was raised in a heavily conservative area and it can be hard to break out of that mentality of "I'm a good person, so why are you calling me bad?", but you need to understand that it's not about YOU. Black people are being shot for doing nothing but existing and for some reason you feel the need to give a lecture to them on what words they should use in order to get your full support.
 

Necromanti

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,550
I do not understand the inability to simply remove or exempt yourself if it doesn't apply to you. You know yourself better than any of us do, and you are the things that you do.
I've wondered about this for a very long time...and I think the answer might actually be quite simple for the majority of cases. (It's that it might apply to them to some degree. Or at least, that's what their consequent behavior would seem to imply.)
 
OP
OP
RedMercury

RedMercury

Blue Venus
Member
Dec 24, 2017
17,657

Spinluck

▲ Legend ▲
Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
28,469
Chicago
I've wondered about this for a very long time...and I think the answer might actually be quite simple for the majority of cases. (It's that it might apply to them to some degree. Or at least, that's what their consequent behavior would seem to imply.)

Absolutely, we are human after all and when shit gets to me or crawls under my skin I most definitely respond. A lot of the time, it sucks to face truths about yourself, but how else do you grow as a person?

Ideally you should be able to identify if you are, "part of the problem." Simply saying you know or acknowledge that there is a disparity when it comes to race relations between white people and PoC is simply not enough. Listen, so you can understand.
 

Xenon

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,266
User Banned (2 Weeks): Disingenuous arguments, History of dismissiveness in race-related topics, Accumulated infractions
Has it not dawned on you that it goes both ways? You're talking about shutting down the conversation from jump.
If that's what you wanna do, so be it. Most people aren't trying to engage those terms anyway.

How is one side shutting up and just listening both ways? Also maybe if people stated things more toward this country rather than just, white people. Unless you believe black people only experience racism from white people.

I'm very tired of this meta discussion about the discussion.

Can you be specific to what issues YOU think PoC should listen to white people regarding racism?

Probably stop referring to "white people" as a monolithic group would be a good start.

Listen to what? Butthurt white people trying to pretend PoC's issues don't exist?

Cause I've been listening to that shit all my life.
I'd say drawing a hard line between people in this country based just on skin color is not going to help start any conversation. As a father of mixed children I can honestly say that this term is cancer to race relations in this country.
 

El Bombastico

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
36,048
I'd say drawing a hard line between people in this country based just on skin color is not going to help start any conversation. As a father of mixed children I can honestly say that this term is cancer to race relations in this country.

Oh my God, you went there. You actually went there.

...WOW
 

Spinluck

▲ Legend ▲
Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
28,469
Chicago
How is one side shutting up and just listening both ways? Also maybe if people stated things more toward this country rather than just, white people. Unless you believe black people only experience racism from white people.

Probably stop referring to "white people" as a monolithic group would be a good start.

I'd say drawing a hard line between people in this country based just on skin color is not going to help start any conversation. As a father of mixed children I can honestly say that this term is cancer to race relations in this country.

If you got more to say besides this I'm all ears.
 
OP
OP
RedMercury

RedMercury

Blue Venus
Member
Dec 24, 2017
17,657
How is one side shutting up and just listening both ways? Also maybe if people stated things more toward this country rather than just, white people. Unless you believe black people only experience racism from white people.
Okay, the floor is yours, drop some knowledge on what you think PoC are getting wrong regarding racism, what are they missing?
Probably stop referring to "white people" as a monolithic group would be a good start.
White people are a monolithic group in that we are all white and we all benefit from structural racism on some level, and we are all in a situation as white people where we have an inherent power to either do good in the way of race relations or do bad, and it carries weight with us being in the position of benefactors of privilege.
I'd say drawing a hard line between people in this country based just on skin color is not going to help start any conversation. As a father of mixed children I can honestly say that this term is cancer to race relations in this country.
We're saying the conversation cannot be had if people don't recognize the basics of privilege or racism and the role they can and probably have played in that. The conversation cannot be had without self-refelction, and you are a good example, where you cannout have the conversation because you are so hung up on defending white people and have internalized it as an attack on your person,

Why won't you respond to anything I'm saying to you?
 

sayuuna

Member
Sep 6, 2018
548
臺灣 「 臺北市 」
If you got more to say besides this I'm all ears.

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Nepenthe

When the music hits, you feel no pain.
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
20,696
It is ironic to complain about white people as a whole being held responsible for the continuance of white supremacy when the very label of "white" has historically been used to assimilate disparate groups of Europeans under one umbrella just for the purpose of being a united monolithic block.
 

DigitalOp

Member
Nov 16, 2017
9,284
I will definitely check it out tomorrow. A month from now I'll have to explain to a lot of people why dressing up in blackface as a white old man's servant (black pete) is a tradition that needs to die.

Well the best part is you don't have to, just have then watch Roland explain it and then you all can have a discussion!

just watched this entire thing, good stuff

Thanks for watching!

Tim Wise? Not this one but many before it. He makes a lot of money speaking at universities. But I'll listen to it.

I appreciate it. Let me know your thoughts when you finish!
 

Royalan

I can say DEI; you can't.
Moderator
Oct 24, 2017
11,960
Is this the 999,999,999th iteration of the "Racists would be more sympathetic to the plight of black people if they just changed their terminology" conversation?

Because that's been done. Over and over again.
 

Jersey_Tom

Banned
Dec 2, 2017
4,764
To answer the question there's really no way to match the defensiveness of certain people. That unfortunately is a personal problem that the individual needs to get over.

Part of the fragility comes specifically because, imho, we all picture ourselves as the hero of our own stories. And part of being the hero comes with having faced some great adversity for which we like to play the victim, even when we're not personally affected by something. As Wise points out with the "took our jobs" line, in most circumstances that wasn't a job someone had applied to or was currently in the act of working, just the perception that an opportunity was lost by you or gained by that person who may not have had the appropriate credentials strikes as some great injustice against oneself. "Why not me" tends to come with trying to rationalize about what's different between the individual and the other. Unfortunately, a good portion of people tend to look at it solely as "well it's because this person belongs to "x" race." Of course this isn't exclusive to race of course, hell, I've heard it enough in my industry that the reason why certain people get more opportunities than others is because of nepotism or any other number of things, which may or may not be true, but is the rationalization made almost instantly in order to paint oneself as a victim.

So when confronted with the prospect that they may inadvertently be complicit in the struggle of an entire race of people, suddenly now the victim is painted as the villain. That's a tremendous shot to one's own personal identity and character, which if we're being honest likely has less to do with those things as opposed to their lack of education about history, also something Wise points out. Someone's personal victimhood is so deeply ingrained, and these days stoked by people like Trump, that to be confronted with any other truth would be like me walking into a congregation and espousing the virtues of atheism. The only difference here is the church in the scenario of dealing with race is the Church of the American Dream. One in which most of white America, myself included, was taught at an early age the staples of "all men are created equal," "liberty and justice for all" and the virtues of a capitalist society that you can be and do anything you want if you just want it enough and work hard enough. The latter of which in most respects is true, though we aren't taught that some people are born with more of a head start than others due to any number of factors including race, socioeconomic status, etc.

But nuance isn't something that the majority of the public likes to consider. Things are much easier when they're black and white, no pun intended. Work hard and good things will follow. People exist on a totally even playing field in all aspects of life. These are truths many in the white community are led to believe. It takes people wanting to learn and understand the experiences of others with an open mind to be able to overcome their defensiveness and allow themselves accept that perhaps what they've been taught their whole lives and carried with them, potentially over several decades is wrong. But when someone lives a sheltered life where they're only truly exposed to a single demographic of people that's extremely hard to accomplish. Part of that is why I think college is constantly looked at as some great liberal institution, mainly because it forces people to be exposed to others likely outside of their demographic. I mean, there's a reason why people like Trump are popular with the poorly educated, and it's not just because people are stupid, but because those people tend to also come from homogeneous environments where the perception of the world passed down from their homogenized families for generations is never challenged. "How could anyone thing differently than this clearly correct line of thinking I've learned from the people I've trusted with my well-being for my entire life?" That line of thinking tends to extend unfortunately also onto the national level. "How could this amazing country I've been told forever is star-spangled awesome have such a grave injustice problem? Clearly it's others who are wrong." Otherwise known as the Seymour Skinner Rationale.

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If the individual is not ready to internalize the possibility that something that they've known to be a fundamental truth is inherently wrong, then the fragility will unfortunately not be something that will be overcome. You may be able to make your points heard, but that's not a guarantee that they'll be internalized. It's hard to convince someone that their "team" is a problem when they themselves feel like their own personal struggle isn't something that's acknowledged.
 

Burrman

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,633
Is racism mostly directed at white people because of power? Because in my experience racism comes in all colours. I also happen to run into a lot more racists from other ethnicities where I'm from. I don't want to call out specific backgrounds, but that's just how it is from my experience.

I'm not trying to be "fragile" or direct criticism away from white racists because I know there are a lot. I'm just genuinely curious as to why racism is generally seen as a problem with specifically white people. I know systematic racism is a problem in America, but just curious about other countries that are not a white majority.

I feel like I'm gonna get jumped on here, but I'm genuinely curious.
 

Holundrian

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,155
If people actually..... honestly..... care, they would watch these 2 videos.




Got the timestamps to work, Guess I can start tackling Systemic Racism now >_>

oh yeah and megyn kelly is so full of shit here lol

Thanks for sharing. Neither white nor American but I found these videos still worthwhile to watch.
 

DigitalOp

Member
Nov 16, 2017
9,284
Is racism mostly directed at white people because of power? Because in my experience racism comes in all colours. I also happen to run into a lot more racists from other ethnicities where I'm from. I don't want to call out specific backgrounds, but that's just how it is from my experience.

I'm not trying to be "fragile" or direct criticism away from white racists because I know there are a lot. I'm just genuinely curious as to why racism is generally seen as a problem with specifically white people. I know systematic racism is a problem in America, but just curious about other countries that are not a white majority.

I feel like I'm gonna get jumped on here, but I'm genuinely curious.

Please watch the videos on Page 1

They explain everything youre asking better than any poster here could

Thanks for sharing. Neither white nor American but I found these videos still worthwhile to watch.

Thanks for watching. I appreciate it.
 
OP
OP
RedMercury

RedMercury

Blue Venus
Member
Dec 24, 2017
17,657
I'm not trying to be "fragile" or direct criticism away from white racists because I know there are a lot. I'm just genuinely curious as to why racism is generally seen as a problem with specifically white people. I know systematic racism is a problem in America, but just curious about other countries that are not a white majority.
Well, I didn't think to specify but we're just talking about Western-centric racism here, though other places have similar problems that likely manifest in similar ways. The driving force of racism is perpetuated by white people both currently and historically in our corner of the world and beyond us of course but for the purposes of this discussion and this specific phenomenon the scope is here in America.

Also, like Digi said, check out the videos
 
Oct 25, 2017
26,560
I agree that "white fragility" is not a great phrase, and I think it only really works with people who are already "on board" in some fashion (primarily LGBTQ+ white people, or just white people who already consider themself "woke").

I suspect that white people like me could "grease" the situation a bit by doing more to even the load. By that I mean to use our white privilege proactively. A racist white person is probably more likely to take the words of another white person more seriously, even when the phrasing is more eloquent, interesting and nuanced coming from a non-white person.

As I (clumsily) expressed in another thread about racism, white people are a bit unique in the way we can "peace out" if race-discussions ever turn too heated, or too pointed/confrontational.

If I wasn't white, I think I would probably be a little wary of white allies, simply because there is always that "emergency-exit" available to us if things really get awful. Dealing with race-issues is an active, deliberate choice for white people, and opting in - as opposed to just being forced to deal, like every non-white person has to - is going to impact how seriously each person interacts with an issue.

I think - for similiar reasons - that LGBTQ+ people (like me) have a less robust "trust in another stranger like you" because a lot of LGBTQ+ people has the option to "peace out" by conforming to society's norms ("acting straight"), and become invisible in a way that isn't possible for people who don't pass as non-white, in terms of being identified as non-white.

I think I fucked up in that other thread by not properly explaining where I was coming from, so I'm a little "on-guard" when writing this. But, still, I do feel that there is some merit to what I'm saying.
Nah. Fragility is pretty accurate. Minorities have no reason to sugarcoat.

People think white fragility is only a reaction to getting called out for their racism, but it'll show long before that.

Gonna share three quick stories of people I knew who would balk at the thought of being called racist.

Toward the end of high school, our principal congratulated our valedictorian for getting into Harvard. A "friend" sitting right next to me who was super butt hurt he didn't get into his dream school Notre Dame, pretty much sighed and OUT LOUD said, the only reason she got in was because she was a minority (half Hispanic).

Early in college, I overheard a student discussing how he wants to start a white student association, because black students have theirs and it'll be even. Completely overlooking the fact that the overwhelming majority of the school was white and that his student association would be incredibly redundant.

At another college event, I was at a diversity food event, packed mostly with white kids and overheard one telling another that it's easier for minorities to get into college and that if a white kid and a black kid have the exact same grades, they'll take the black kid. Again, at an event most filled with white kids, at a school mostly filled with white kids.

These are a things we stomach and don't argue about to be polite and not want to make a scene, but we've honestly had enough and at this point I couldn't give a fuck about civility or wanting to convince people because that's not on me to do for you or anyone. These are all stories of millennials, people my age, I've honestly given up that this will ever go away.

There was also that story of the black teenager who got into all Ivy League school and news response was "well that's kind of obnoxious", "why is he taking spots he doesn't even need from other students".

White fragility will simply show in response to minorities doing things for themselves and being successful at it.
 
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Squarehard

Member
Oct 27, 2017
25,880
First reply basically nailed it, especially the first video.

Tim Wise always does a great job framing this perspective, and breaks it down so articulately.
 

PaperSparrow

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,023
How is one side shutting up and just listening both ways? Also maybe if people stated things more toward this country rather than just, white people. Unless you believe black people only experience racism from white people.

Probably stop referring to "white people" as a monolithic group would be a good start.

I'd say drawing a hard line between people in this country based just on skin color is not going to help start any conversation. As a father of mixed children I can honestly say that this term is cancer to race relations in this country.

Surely you acknowledge that white people in the West have a lot of power right? The thing about power is that everyone hears what you have to say all the time. Entertainment, news, politics, etc. are dominated by white people's feelings and opinions. The reason we need to "shut up and listen" is because of this fact. Saying it goes both ways only works if both parties are on equal ground.

I hope watching the videos on page 1 helps you understand.
 
Oct 27, 2017
42,700
How is one side shutting up and just listening both ways? Also maybe if people stated things more toward this country rather than just, white people. Unless you believe black people only experience racism from white people.
What race is the most abundant in the US? What race is most abundant in all branches of government? What race is predominant in law enforcement?
 

Kyzer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,709
Me at age 5: lol racism is such an archaic concept I can't believe people used to think like this

Me now: we are doomed
 

Khanimus

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
40,211
Greater Vancouver
I'd say drawing a hard line between people in this country based just on skin color is not going to help start any conversation. As a father of mixed children I can honestly say that this term is cancer to race relations in this country.
Right, let's pretend there is no experiential or systemically beneficial difference between minority groups and white people. That ought to help...