Honestly I find white people getting defensive very understandable
Doesn't change their responsibility to understand though
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White fragility and you: An important step in combating racism
- Thread starter RedMercury
- Start date
Doesn't change their responsibility to understand though
No shit.
The person I replied to was specifically talking about racial slurs.
Who is talking about just the N Word?
Why even bring up I'm sure he agrees slurs are bad... so what, that's surface level racism, that's easy to oppose racism, that's not what this is about like at all.
OP
OP
I don't see that in their post? Unless you are saying "white fragility" is a racial slur?
i had a friend who tried to argue that white people were discriminated against as well when we had a discussion about racism
his example was, "white people have it harder trying to get into good colleges"
i barely talk to him anymore
his example was, "white people have it harder trying to get into good colleges"
i barely talk to him anymore
That poster you replied to was specifically describing white fragility, not making any N word analogy.
As in the poster they were replying to was literally saying don;t use the term white fragility it makes white people sad... as in literally the reactions to the idea of white fragility are literally displays of white fragility,
I agree that "white fragility" is not a great phrase, and I think it only really works with people who are already "on board" in some fashion (primarily LGBTQ+ white people, or just white people who already consider themself "woke").
I suspect that white people like me could "grease" the situation a bit by doing more to even the load. By that I mean to use our white privilege proactively. A racist white person is probably more likely to take the words of another white person more seriously, even when the phrasing is more eloquent, interesting and nuanced coming from a non-white person.
As I (clumsily) expressed in another thread about racism, white people are a bit unique in the way we can "peace out" if race-discussions ever turn too heated, or too pointed/confrontational.
If I wasn't white, I think I would probably be a little wary of white allies, simply because there is always that "emergency-exit" available to us if things really get awful. Dealing with race-issues is an active, deliberate choice for white people, and opting in - as opposed to just being forced to deal, like every non-white person has to - is going to impact how seriously each person interacts with an issue.
I think - for similiar reasons - that LGBTQ+ people (like me) have a less robust "trust in another stranger like you" because a lot of LGBTQ+ people has the option to "peace out" by conforming to society's norms ("acting straight"), and become invisible in a way that isn't possible for people who don't pass as non-white, in terms of being identified as non-white.
I think I fucked up in that other thread by not properly explaining where I was coming from, so I'm a little "on-guard" when writing this. But, still, I do feel that there is some merit to what I'm saying.
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When stuff like white privilege is brought up white people should stop getting offended. Stop taking it as a personal attack. All we're saying is--by being born white you see world differently than us. We know that you didn't ask to be white.
That's what I always say. Just acknowledge it instead of pretending like white and blacks are viewed the same by society, and like they have the same opportunities. Like look at Trump--only an old white man could get away with all that shit.
That's what I always say. Just acknowledge it instead of pretending like white and blacks are viewed the same by society, and like they have the same opportunities. Like look at Trump--only an old white man could get away with all that shit.
How else should it be phrased...? The implication tells us this is directed towards those with more privilege. It's like those people that argue against white privilege by saying how poor white people can be or lists experiences of discrimination they faced when white. But those same people don't want to talk about how 50% of black millennials are the ONLY demographic that makes less than $15k a year and have a negative net worth. The only one. People will tell you those people did not work hard enough and that is all on them... but that is nowhere near the entire picture.
It's barely any different than men who lose their shit or get crazy defensive over the phrase, "male fragility." I as a man am not offended by that at all. It's not saying women are always right, but men are more often than not oblivious to their privileges and are quick to ignore what women have to say to defend their egos.
You can easily exempt or remove yourself from it if it doesn't apply to you. Generalizations don't apply here because common sense says they are not saying every white individual has this mindset.
I'll be frank - white people who aren't capable of the bare minimum of self-awareness about the disproportionate racial subjugation and discrimination they endure compared to POC, they aren't actually looking to engage in much change.
I'm kinda on board with the term "white fragility" personally. Like it's a matter of priorities.
When someones like "white people are so racist" taking it super personally kinda means you're admitting that race is such an overwhelming part of your identity... and that false racism accusations appear to bother you more than like... the racism. Is it still a generalisation? Sure. And it's provocative and negative. But it's kinda like flicking ash on someones garden in the hopes that they'll notice an entire forest is on fire. Are you gonna go and start huffing and self-righteously watering your own plants or are u gonna join the firefight?
ps ill listen to the videos at work later, i wanna play some vibdeogemmes right now :#) priorities indeed
When someones like "white people are so racist" taking it super personally kinda means you're admitting that race is such an overwhelming part of your identity... and that false racism accusations appear to bother you more than like... the racism. Is it still a generalisation? Sure. And it's provocative and negative. But it's kinda like flicking ash on someones garden in the hopes that they'll notice an entire forest is on fire. Are you gonna go and start huffing and self-righteously watering your own plants or are u gonna join the firefight?
ps ill listen to the videos at work later, i wanna play some vibdeogemmes right now :#) priorities indeed
I don't know how else it should be phrased. White fragility is a useful and refreshing term for audiences that already consider themself progressive and "on-board", as I said.
But the goal isn't to convince already "woke" people; it's to enact wide-spread change. If it was working, we wouldn't have this topic, or this collectively felt sense (at least on this forum) that we're sliding backwards, globally, on issues that we used to think could only improve as time progressed.
I don't have any readily-available alternative. I bet there is a lot of really interesting sociology/psychology-work that's out there, from people who have dedicated a significant chunk of their life studying contemporary race-relations.
If anyone knows about such a writer - and his or her work - feel free to drop a recommendation in this thread.
EDIT: Just to be clear, I am aware that "trying to figure out how people who hate you work" is a humiliating, inhuman activity. I fully understand that a lot of non-white people are really tired of putting in the effort. Obviously, if we lived in a better world, this wouldn't be a mental task you had to burden yourself with.
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Im just amazed about some of the ironic responses in this thread, africanAmericans have been subject to oppression and living in fear trough their entire existence of this country, They were slaves, segregated, lynched by hate groups and only like 50 years ago get a little equality for them and still up to this day they get killed, denied job opportunities, amongst other things and when they try to point out how white fragility is a thing that is an obstacle to move thing forward, is it too offensive for white people and therefore shouldn't be used...
I mean this is just so tone deaf, Im not white, nor black and neither raised in this country, but shit, is so easy to see trough that some white people really don't want to engage in the discussion and bail out with any excuse.
I mean this is just so tone deaf, Im not white, nor black and neither raised in this country, but shit, is so easy to see trough that some white people really don't want to engage in the discussion and bail out with any excuse.
Uggghhh
This is sorta what I fugured, and it sucks.
i don't care if it sounds hostile. Its been almost 500 years and white people are STILL actively oppressing and denying my people and if we even try to talk about it we get, "who, us?" and "your hurting my feelings bringing it up"
You're never going to be able to get the majority to parse concept of white fragility. The defensiveness is going to be enacted due to the belief that racism is always a conscious action of evil. So long as one thinks that they're being compared to Hitler when minorities get upset at the state of things, any discussion on this matter is null and void.
That's the thing though, those diet-woke people are not really woke.
Honestly, it just requires just a bit of introspection. I have said many times before only they can do that emotional/self reflective work to better understand their views and develop the empathy that can help them better understand this situation and movement. Dumbing it down or wrapping it up a prettier package to come off as nicer or less harmful to their egos won't really do much imo. If this makes so-called progressive people uncomfortable, I think they should sit down and consider that perhaps they might not be as forward thinking as they like to believe. Almost half the US isn't really being nice or less candid in their racism either, and most choose to be unaware of it or just don't care enough. Along with only accepting more extreme forms of overt racism as racism, which is the least common type of racism minorities experience.
I have always felt that when people use that term on this forum was a little hypocritical. Especially considering deviating from of the accepted point of view would often result in a ban. All too often this comes off as just shut up and listen. It's just a snarky label that really doesn't help any debate.
I agree that it is a matter of semantics mostly. I do get defensive myself quite often in those debates and I don´t think it is because I´m not aware of the reality of the situation. Terms like white fragility evoke an image of an inherent flaw that is specific to white people. It is not tied to the social position of power that white people inhabit in most of western society. It suggests that were the roles reversed in some alternate universe there would be no black/latino/asian fragility because this is a thing only white people can have. Were this phenomenon called "majority fragility" or something like that I don´t think people would get offended.
Of course I realise that this just makes it easier for people to say "This has nothing to do with me!" and that it would only serve to make (white) people feel better about themselves and that this is not a priority at all for most people in the discourse. However, I don´t think anyone should be surprised that white people get offended. I often feel the discourse is designed to offend.
Of course I realise that this just makes it easier for people to say "This has nothing to do with me!" and that it would only serve to make (white) people feel better about themselves and that this is not a priority at all for most people in the discourse. However, I don´t think anyone should be surprised that white people get offended. I often feel the discourse is designed to offend.
OP
OP
How so?
What is the "accepted point of view"?
I'm not asking anyone to shut up, I asked for discussion, but would you agree that sometimes white people do need to shut up and listen?
See, see, this is a problem. Now instead of the subject at hand we are discussing semantics and how to even have the conversation without offending the offenders. Mission accomplished by the people that set out to stifle to conversation.
'What do you think of "male fragility?"'
Stop this!
'What do you think of "male fragility?"'
Stop this!
I totally get why people feel hostile towards "white fragility" and why they get defensive, it's a symptom of a bigger issue - probably stemming from the same school of thought that men should be strong and never show emotions and all that nonsense.
I also don't think when people say "white fragility" they mean that white individuals are the problem, more that the system that allowed white people to prosper at the expense of others and the defensiveness when that system is called into question is the issue.
I'm not saying that I'm going to take personal responsibility for issues I wasn't involved with, but I can take personal responsibility that injustices continue to happen. That's not something to be defensive about, it's something to think about and something to act on.
Or have I got it wrong?
I also don't think when people say "white fragility" they mean that white individuals are the problem, more that the system that allowed white people to prosper at the expense of others and the defensiveness when that system is called into question is the issue.
I'm not saying that I'm going to take personal responsibility for issues I wasn't involved with, but I can take personal responsibility that injustices continue to happen. That's not something to be defensive about, it's something to think about and something to act on.
Or have I got it wrong?
Same as it ever was.
This happens literally every single time. It happened at the old place, it happens here, it happens every day in the world.
I'll go out and say that even in the scope of some ill-willed Twitter jokes (you'll see by my post history I'm a huuuge fan) there are underlying anecdotes that would really open your eye to some of the perspectives we have. Though I personally never use this term, I never bash it/am open to it because depending on where we are and who we interact with, our experiences with racism vary.
So in your case, when you say hypocritical, I do not know what you mean, if you could clarify. I also hope you understand that calling it an "accepted point of view" gives the implication that you wish not to accept the thoughts of others who may face discrimination? I think most of us just want to be/feel heard, it's not really to attack anyone for being a skin color — obviously, that would be hypocritical.
EDIT: I guess I'm mirroring OPs recent response^^
From my black male perspective, all of the "shut up and listen" viewpoints are coming from the people like the one who already got banned by essentially trying to dismiss the entire thing outright.
You have one side trying to lay out their issues and grievances, and then you have the other side essentially saying "this is stupid and we're moving on differently. Shut up about this nonsense and follow this line of dialog for this specific subject."
Only the latter is actively trying to silence,, and it's not the side calling white people fragile.
Reminds me of people going after the phrase "black lives matter".
'Oh, so MY WHITE life DOESNT???'
Getting mad at the accurate, descriptive banner they chose is so petty and fragile.
Yeah, a shit load of white people are way too fragile. Talk of privilege and you're met with hostile defensiveness. He'll, you probably have some racist shit to examine and work on. Don't deflect and shut down by moaning about the term.
'Oh, so MY WHITE life DOESNT???'
Getting mad at the accurate, descriptive banner they chose is so petty and fragile.
Yeah, a shit load of white people are way too fragile. Talk of privilege and you're met with hostile defensiveness. He'll, you probably have some racist shit to examine and work on. Don't deflect and shut down by moaning about the term.
Lol! What the hell is this from it looks hilarious
I was probably this type of fragile many years ago but being on the old forum and now this one, and engaging in discussions about this sort of thing has really hardened me to the reality of it. It's a lot easier to notice other people being white and fragile now lol. Even if I feel like an outlier to a generalization I read about white people I just keep my mouth shut because it's a really stupid battle to pick. The reality is that we(as white people) need to roll with the punches and accept the ramifications of our privilege and history full stop, because it's no where near the struggles that PoC face.
White fragility isn't a term who's sole purpose is to court white people. The term isn't yours. It is not for you. It is not for your benefit. It's a term simply putting to word a noticed phenomenon. It's supposed to be an easy way to reference said phenomenon perhaps for, say, discussions in supposedly progressive spaces.
If all you wanna do when you see this thread and pop off about "white fragility" not being a great term for white people get your priorities straight or get out.
If all you wanna do when you see this thread and pop off about "white fragility" not being a great term for white people get your priorities straight or get out.
No I won't stop this.
Why not ask this? I will be surprised if I even get a response.
It is the same people that flip themselves as a victim of moderation in all of these threads, so I am legit trying to level with them.
If I as a male don't get backed into a corner when a women mentions "male fragility" why does the topic of "white fragility" make them so uncomfortable?
I am not by any means ignoring the subject at hand. But if I don't get an answer, then I think it's clear why they post these things and never return an answer.
These same post are all posted in a way that avoids breaking TOS but we know what they are really trying to say.
EDIT: Who here is stopping them from typing what they want to say? lol.
First video is really good. Second video has a lot of good points, but because it was a conversation it wasn't as concise.
However. *snaps snaps snaps*
Being a person of a minority is fucking exhausting though. You face it in life, you face it in a metaphysical level, and then you face it internally.
White male fragility is a damn thing, though.
The section in the first video about (white) colonists complaining about taxes and creating the Boston Tea Party was so poignant to a conversation that I was having with one of my very privileged friends recently.
He has no bills, children, rent, car payment, car insurance, etc., to pay because his parents are basically taking care of all of that. Then he gets all upset when I call him out for trying to avoid paying taxes on his mac book... There are so many problems in the world, and you decide to implode when I try to unveil all his privilege.
It still annoys me that he thinks that I was just being salty. I was like, no, ma'am. Some people care more about not paying taxes than dealing with any kind of real world issue. I'm sure he'd have thrown me off the boat if he had a chance.
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User Banned (1 Week): Dismissing discussions on a sensitive subject, Account in junior phase
Only on the most superficial of levels. Realistically, there is only one point of view that will be tolerated in this thread.
The problem that people have with the term 'white fragility' seems pretty obvious to me. It eliminates individual agency and conflates individual perspectives with an alleged groupthink ascribed to an entire demographic (and yes, I'm aware that PoC are most often the victims of the same phenomenon). Most frequently, it's used as a trump card to immediately call a halt to any discussion about race and that's fine if all you really want to do is repeat the same talking points ad nauseam amongst yourselves but intellectually, it's completely vapid.
A key priori here is the assumption of a modicum of self awareness. I do not believe the white American populace truly understands themselves and what it means to be white in the context of society in any meaningful sense. They might consider themselves "hard working, God fearing, Americans" and so on. But at its core these platitudes signify nothing as they have rarely, if ever truly reflected on the substance behind these terms. I think this sort of mindset is a result of white privilege.
This quote is a succinct definition of white privilege: "You can go through contemporary life, fudging and evading, indulging and slacking, never really hungry nor frightened nor passionately stirred, your highest moment a mere sentimental orgasm, and your first real contact with primary and elementary necessities, the sweat of your death-bed."
This quote sums up half of the posters on era, as they "just ask questions". The are so myopic and naive in their worldview, they cannot even conceive the harsh reality faced by minorities.
Ironically, we are not a reflective and inward looking society by any measure because of our privilege. This complicates this matter to the detriment of minorities everywhere in our country.
This quote is a succinct definition of white privilege: "You can go through contemporary life, fudging and evading, indulging and slacking, never really hungry nor frightened nor passionately stirred, your highest moment a mere sentimental orgasm, and your first real contact with primary and elementary necessities, the sweat of your death-bed."
This quote sums up half of the posters on era, as they "just ask questions". The are so myopic and naive in their worldview, they cannot even conceive the harsh reality faced by minorities.
Ironically, we are not a reflective and inward looking society by any measure because of our privilege. This complicates this matter to the detriment of minorities everywhere in our country.
This is 100% accurate with the racist side of my family. They won't tolerate being told there's anything wrong with them. Of course they're also the type of people to drive giant trucks, carry guns to family gatherings, talk about installing machine guns at the border, etc...
Yeah, white people need to have some introspection. The problem is the people that need it most will 100% become combative at hearing the words "white fragility".
Edit: DigitalOp, I promise to watch the videos as soon as I'm able to have audio.
It's mainly aimed at the fragile portion. My interpretation of it is the inability to cope with a different perspective and in turn being hostile towards said perspective.
There's no doubt that white people in this country have a limited perspective and do not see what others go through. But people need to understand the same goes for black Americans as well. Not only do we experience different things but we are taught to view the world in certain ways so our experiences are defined by those teachings. We notice and make note of the world based on how we're taught to see it. In this respect all cultures suffer from that limitation. But for some reason only "white" people are faulted for it.
And yes I understand because of power that it carries more weight and it is more important however, more often than not people here try to play it off as the most important and only consideration without actually having a discussion. Because in the end that type of discussion would never happen on this forum. which I'm fine with because they want people to be able to air their grievances without becoming upset. Sadly the conversation that needs to be had would not be comfortable for anyone.
My patience for defensiveness has become less than nonexistent at this point. They aren't interested in listening, and they probably never will be. Those kinds of people have already made up their minds and will twist the conversation into them being the victim; calling out odious behavior has to be taken personally and be dismantled in turn, turning attention away from the original issue.
People won't allow themselves the opportunity to be in the wrong, or just simply listen. And if they listened, they'd know it wasn't about them. They ultimately just prove the claims true. So I'm on team "forget about them". They're no different from the moderates who enable the right.
All we can do is hope to better educate the younger generations.
People won't allow themselves the opportunity to be in the wrong, or just simply listen. And if they listened, they'd know it wasn't about them. They ultimately just prove the claims true. So I'm on team "forget about them". They're no different from the moderates who enable the right.
All we can do is hope to better educate the younger generations.
Thank you so much for watching the video.
Tim Wise will always explain it better than I can, he's great.
You see the questions people asked him in the end are the same questions people constantly ask and repeat here?
What I loved about Rolands video is his notion about challenging how you grew up and what you were taught.
If people cared, they'd take the time to watch and understand. But fighting over terminology is a good defense to avoid the conversation.
OP
OP
Oh, please. If you have a problem with the moderation or users here, or if you want to thread-whine, contact a staff member, but please don't bring that whining into my thread. Hell, you can even create your own thread if you'd like. You're right, it's likely *not* going to be tolerated if you try to say it isn't a thing when as a white dude I see it all the time and minorities do as well, you can't say in good faith it isn't a thing.
I like to call white people out on their bullshit but it's honestly so infuriating some times and gets tiresome.
White people need thicker skin and stop thinking it's a personal attack. I'd haver a harder time shattering a wine glass if I threw it against a wall, at least compared to their fragile psyches.
White people need thicker skin and stop thinking it's a personal attack. I'd haver a harder time shattering a wine glass if I threw it against a wall, at least compared to their fragile psyches.
I think it is more about being defensive rather than hostile. To quote the first sentence from the excerpt in OP:
Which goes on to solidify this notion. I think any "hostility" stems from misunderstanding, but it first comes from the two parties failing in having a solid conversation, which [more often than not] brings us back to the idea mentioned in the quote.
I'm not sure what you are implying here, could you specify? This reads like, "because of our respective teachings black people tend to get irrationally upset at white people because of their experiences, and [therefore] white people maintain their limited perspectives"
It's depressing but so many white people see all this as an attack on their race and thus goes on the offensive.
As a white male in Europe, thank you. I watched the Roland Martin video entirely and I will do my best to spread the message whenever I can.