Frank Cifaldi (Digital Eclipse) invites critque of work, not just original game

Seems reasonable. I like the effort to authenticity and the extras in MMLC1.

That's actually fair, I feel. The people interested in these type of collections likely already know how they feel about the original works.

I understand his point, but this medium is based almost entirely on gameplay perception and an old game will forever feel like an old game to play. Movies are a different beast, as a remaster of sound and picture does the job. When it comes to videogames, a new coat of paint and some reworked sound can do wonders, but trying to make an old game feel good by modern standards is a whole different story.

I understand his frustration.

dancingphlower said:

That's actually fair, I feel. The people interested in these type of collections likely already know how they feel about the original works.

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Yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking about. I'm way more interested in knowing if the emulation is accurate or if the collection adds enough for those who already own the games elsewhere.

Definitely understand his frustration. Emulation quality should definitely be judged alongside past attempts (specifically the 3S emulation they did in comparison to Iron Galaxy's 3S emulation.)

100% agreed on that.

I already know if I want the game or not, I want to know how it differs from the original.

hey I've complained about the emulation quality of some of the collections he's put together

I think the problem a lot of the time is that most of the people reviewing the collections aren't qualified to talk about the differences.

I feel like if mainstream press really reviewed DE's efforts over the quality of their preservation they'd score lower rather than when reviewers going in on nostalgia for the classics themselves. Things like input lag and netcode are well behind acceptable for the medium or competitors like M2, NERD, Code Mystics and Gotch Technology in many cases.

I'm still hopeful for their SNK Collection and it seems like they've put in a ton of work on it so we'll see.

I understand his frustration.

That being said, the quality of his own company's work often leaves a lot to be desired... I take a lot of issue with their work (not with the games themselves really). While it is a lot better than the Digital Eclipse/Backbone days of old, it is still nowhere near the level of M2's and Nintendo's own work. Forget adding additional features, just focus on getting the basic port/emulation right; that is the most important thing in a retro re-release.

I was frustrated by the troubles Mega Man 5 had in Mega Man Legacy Collection, and how you had to swap over to the Rockman 5 version to play it smoothly. Looking forward to playing SNK 40th.

I could be misinterpreting what he is saying, but, does he want the review score to not reflect the actual games at all?

Because if so, I dont know if I agree with that.

All of the stuff they add is awesome and should be reflected in the review and also factor into the final score - but omitting the most important part (the base games themselves) seems weird to me.

This doesn't apply to my feedback, as I've been readily critiquing their actual work on SF30th, not the games themselves. In particular, their abysmal barebones controller configuraton.

I wanted this game for multiple systems, but the lack of any sort of button mappings options prsent in these games since the PS1 era versions ruins the playability of the games on pads. I skipped it completely as a result.

Their old incarnation did the same with MvC2 on PS3/360 and they learned nothing. So I don't have much faith in them learning from critique.

I'm pretty sure he wants critique of both. Talking about the game, but also not undermining the work that has gone making it work and the bonuses with it.

No arguments here. Reviews of these types of collections should focus on quality of the port, not whether or not you like the original game.

Eventually we will get there as a medium. Probably only like 60 or 70 years to go, at the current rate

I've been generally disappointed in their efforts for capcom releases recently, if he wants to invite criticism and feedback... Ok, but they might want to look at lag and provide better handling of non-square pixel resolutions as a starting point.

Yup. I usually really dig the extras in the collections they put out. From the looks of it, SNK40th looks great in this area as well.

At the very least, I wish game reviewers would concentrate on that more when reviewing rereleases and compilations. Just open with "Okay assuming you're into classic SNK coin-ops, here's how this package presents them" and go from there. Seeing some game from 1984 get a 7.0 is stupid.

His products would be screwed if people actually talked about emulation quality in reviews lol

I also feel that the quality and faithful reproduction of the original work is of paramount importance. Extras are great, but if the original emulation/etc. is not great, it should still negatively affect the rating of the game.

2n2 said:

This doesn't apply to my feedback, as I've been readily critiquing their actual work on SF30th, not the games themselves. In particular, their abysmal barebones controller configuraton.

I wanted this game for multiple systems, but the lack of any sort of button mappings options prsent in these games since the PS1 era versions ruins the playability of the games on pads. I skipped it completely as a result.

Their old incarnation did the same with MvC2 on PS3/360 and they learned nothing. So I don't have much faith in them learning from critique.

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Were they involved with the SOTN port for 360? Because I couldn't play that because the default game's button remapping was broken and never fixed as far as I know.

steviestar3 said:

His products would be screwed if people actually talked about emulation quality in reviews lol

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Seriously. They should be careful what they wish for. I find the tech/accessibility options/UI to be very sub par in their work and get a pass becasue of the fluff like art galleries.

Nuclear Muffin said:

I understand his frustration.

That being said, the quality of his own company's work often leaves a lot to be desired... I take a lot of issue with their work (not with the games themselves really). While it is a lot better than the Digital Eclipse/Backbone days of old, it is still nowhere near the level of M2's and Nintendo's own work. Forget adding additional features, just focus on getting the basic port/emulation right; that is the most important thing in a retro re-release.

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Pretty much this.

Terror-Billy said:

I understand his point, but this medium is based almost entirely on gameplay perception and an old game will forever feel like an old game to play. Movies are a different beast, as a remaster of sound and picture does the job. When it comes to videogames, a new coat of paint and some reworked sound can do wonders, but trying to make an old game feel good by modern standards is a whole different story.

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Some issues with older games in regard to mechanics or unfair difficulty can be resolved in an emulated collection with options for savestates, enhanced GUIs, "cheat modes" like the Switch's upcoming new versions of Zelda, and possibly even graphical or sound upgrades, so a review can accommodate for that too. (And before anyone asks "What if those can't salvage the game", it's not like Digital Eclipse is gonna be handling LJN crap in the short-term future. Their Capcom work can't even be criticized for having a "dated" formula, as even Mega Man 11 has shown that you can make a solid game in the "old" style with new graphics and sound.)

Also, there is a counter-argument to be made for when the opposite can happen - a really great original game having a really badly done remake, where the reviews are all about praising the original game and buyers don't realize the remake is crap until it's too late. From my personal memory, I feel like a lot of such reviews for remakes/ports of Playstation games are like such - the reviews are almost always more about how much they think of the original game, or what they think the original game is like based on the portjob, moreso than the porting quality itself. Heck, a lot of discussion on Castlevania Requiem was muddled over with that just recently.

And there's always this classic example of how not to do a port of a classic game:


Sega has had problems with bad outsourced devs and licensors, especially AtGames, making shoddy quality versions of their products for so long that it contributed to the awful "Sonic was never good" meme and devalued a large chunk of their Sega Genesis library. In those cases, the problems were not the games. It was a bad portjob, bad emulation, bad sound, or the licensors not noticing they threw a hacked ROM on their official collection, or other such potential issues that come when a bad licensor treats their product without any quality assurance.

As for the people who actually will critique DE's work, good job. Though I will say, as someone who knows where he hangs around, he is probably well aware of some of the issues brought up, especially since I've mentioned quite a few of them directly to him. :P

He asking for too much. The only way reviewer can judge those kind of things is if they have the original hardware, and have played those game recently to notice any difference. How I'm supposed to criticize certain aspects of a remaster if I don't remember how it was in the first place?

Besides, the poor job on the shemue remaster was noticed. The input lag on the megaman collection for switch was noticed. If you do a really bad job reviewers will notice, but if do good, you will be invisible. The only restorations that got famous are the bad ones.

He makes good points but part of it is flawed. It's partly why I don't bother with reviews of collections and look at trailers to see features, and read enthusiast sites/articles to find out the nitty gritty.

The one issue with his logic is that not all reviewers have the know-how or capability to compare the original games to the collections. Some of these reviewers never played the originals either and have no idea what to expect.

Jmille99 said:

I could be misinterpreting what he is saying, but, does he want the review score to not reflect the actual games at all?

Because if so, I dont know if I agree with that.

All of the stuff they add is awesome and should be reflected in the review and also factor into the final score - but omitting the most important part (the base games themselves) seems weird to me.

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With a re-release? I disagree with you.

When reviewing a re-release, I think that a review should be focused almost solely on the quality of the actual re-release itself. We already have thousands of opinions about the quality of the game itself, we don't need to hear it regurgitated again.

If I am looking to buy Mega Man Legacy Collection for instance, I don't care about the reviewer's opinion of how good the Mega Man games are themselves. I am only interested in how good the quality of the port is (or emulation, if it is an emulated re-release. MMLC was a collection of native ports, using a new engine that extracted data from the original NES ROMs IIRC). Someone might be interested in the extra features as well, but primarily, the most important thing is how well done the port is.

Reviews are ultimately buyer's guides. That is their purpose.

All I want to know is how good is this version of a classic game. Should I buy this re-release, or just seek out an older version?

I don't need to know what you think of the game itself, just how good is the port and what is wrong with it. I already know I want the game, I don't know if this version is worth my time. The reviewer's job is to review the product and the product is the port/emulation; NOT the game itself.

justiceiro said:

He asking for too much. The only way reviewer can judge those kind of things is if they have the original hardware, and have played those game recently to notice any difference. How I'm supposed to criticize certain aspects of a remaster if I don't remember how it was in the first place?

Besides, the poor job on the shemue remaster was noticed. The input lag on the megaman collection for switch was noticed. If you do a really bad job reviewers will notice, but if do good, you will be invisible. The only restorations that got famous are the bad ones.

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I mean, the two things you mentioned as being "noticed" are things I don't think you need the original hardware to take note of at all, so from what I can see your second statement kinda defeats your first.

That logic only really works for something like Corpse Party where hardly anyone even played the original versions in the first place.

I can't speak to Frank's specific situation, but fixing issues - even obvious ones - costs money, and publishers are only willing to spend money if they think people care. Uncritical reviews of shoddy ports won't get anyone the budget to do better next time.

Magazines used to keep libraries of old games for comparison purposes; if they can't or won't do that anymore, individual reviewers should know it serves the public interest to play those other versions by any means necessary. (That's right, I'm talking about armed robbery.)

I back Frank 100% on this. Let me give an example.

If I look up a review of a blu-ray release, the site I go to reviews the movie separately from the audio mix, video scan and supplements. Say that movie is, something stupid like Maximum Overdrive that just got a blu-ray special edition release. And the first time on blu-ray, I believe. They can say all they want about the quality of the film, but that won't change my opinion of it. But rather, a poor 2k/4k conversion, or a bad 5.1 mix of what was originally a 2.0 track, or supplements are nothing but a trailer and no commentary - those are the things that will influence my purchase.

The game should only play a factor, but it's the modern preservation and presentation of the game that should absolutely be the focus.

Totally agree.

He's right. While I think critics who don't appreciate classic games have the right to review re-releases of classic games (and their input is valuable in some respects), it really sucks that they can tank aggregate scores, which affects sales, which affects the future of projects like these.

Kiddo Cabbusses said:

I mean, the two things you mentioned as being "noticed" are things I don't think you need the original hardware to take note of at all, so from what I can see your second statement kinda defeats your first.

That logic only really works for something like Corpse Party where hardly anyone even played the original versions in the first place.

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What i'm saying that he can't expect something beyond what alreadly happens to be noticed.

Its clear he wants to know if the sound is just like the original, but its hard to say that if i didn't heard it recently.
He wants to know if the colors are right, but its hard to say if i didn't saw recentily how it looked originally.
He wants to know if he nailed the tranparency effects and etc, but again this is hard to tell without side by side comparasion.

He's not wrong. Most reviewers play so much their opinions are worthless. I look to the real fans for a critique, not someone who reviews 5 things a week.

Frank Cifaldi...I'd swear I have heard the name before. Was he a MAME contributor at some point, perhaps?

This is definitely an important distinction a lot of outlets overlook. It'd be worthwhile to have modern reviews of old games, and it'd be worthwhile to have reviews of re-releases and compilations focused on the delta.

They should do more extras than art galleries. Why not audio or video extras from industry people or some original creator interviews etc.

That'd be a start, art is nice to include, but it's not super enticing or exciting.

What about the input lag, Mr. Cifaldi? Will you fix it?

Probably not.

Hey Frank,

I don't think you're reading this but just in case here we go.

When people don't talk about quality of your emulation effort, take this as an implied compliment.

When people don't talk about quality of your extras, take this as an implied insult.

Cheers on!

fiendcode said:

I feel like if mainstream press really reviewed DE's efforts over the quality of their preservation they'd score lower rather than when reviewers going in on nostalgia for the classics themselves. Things like input lag and netcode are well behind acceptable for the medium or competitors like M2, NERD, Code Mystics and Gotch Technology in many cases.

I'm still hopeful for their SNK Collection and it seems like they've put in a ton of work on it so we'll see.

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Nuclear Muffin said:

I understand his frustration.

That being said, the quality of his own company's work often leaves a lot to be desired... I take a lot of issue with their work (not with the games themselves really). While it is a lot better than the Digital Eclipse/Backbone days of old, it is still nowhere near the level of M2's and Nintendo's own work. Forget adding additional features, just focus on getting the basic port/emulation right; that is the most important thing in a retro re-release.

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That's exactly the kind of feedback he said he wants. He even said he doesn't care about scores, just wants a score to be representative of everything (even if it's bad).

So I guess you agree with him then?


Edit: I feel as though maybe DE's releases get judged differently from (for example) M2's stuff. For Sonic 1 and TFIV on Switch I didn't read much on the games at all and was reading more about the inclusions and the quality of the ports/extras etc. Maybe doing a retro collection is different from doing an individual retro game release?

fiendcode said:

I feel like if mainstream press really reviewed DE's efforts over the quality of their preservation they'd score lower rather than when reviewers going in on nostalgia for the classics themselves. Things like input lag and netcode are well behind acceptable for the medium or competitors like M2, NERD, Code Mystics and Gotch Technology in many cases.

I'm still hopeful for their SNK Collection and it seems like they've put in a ton of work on it so we'll see.

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I think it swings both ways: I think they're given a lot of credence by people who support their ethos but aren't genuinely detail-oriented in the manner required to critique their products the way they should be, but I also think people have been quick to tear them down for minor issues that supposedly untouchable studios like M2 fall prey to all the time.

I also want to see them do more projects outside the realm of crappy publishers like Capcom--if the people paying the bills don't give a shit then the end product can only ever be so polished.

Eh I think you need to cover both sides. A flawless rerelease of a bad game is a bad product to the audience that most of these outlets are writing for.

Okay then, I give Digital Eclipse's work a 2/5.

Having awful input lag in a Mega Man collection and bad netcode in a Street Fighter collection is just shoddy.

Cifaldi can turn to music outlets like Pitchfork and their reviews of classic, remastered albums for context on why many critics do the thing he's complaining about. Some people want context on why something is WORTH remastering, and will read 80% about that part before getting to a brief shout-out about a bonus disc full of b-sides.

His ask is valid, there's just another side to it.

Funnily enough, seems like he wants what people are doing right now to the Play station Classic.

I mean...weren't there sound issues reported in MMLC1 that were reported to be Digital Eclipse's fault? Also the hilarity of originally planning to ship the Street Fighter Anniversary Collection in Japan using the U.S. game ROMs?

Digital Eclipse does get criticized. Maybe not in the way Cifaldi is looking for, but they do get criticized.

So pretty much every review of a Digital Eclipse game should read "4/10, I wish M2 was hired instead"

Hailinel said:

Also the hilarity of originally planning to ship the Street Fighter Anniversary Collection in Japan using the U.S. game ROMs?

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Street Fighter 1 would benefit from that, if I recall, since I think the USA version introduced the 6-button input format and has a stage select with 4 stages rather than 2, no?

Though lol @ that for any other game in the series.

Absolutely agree. I'm sure it would also help potential buyers, for whom the review is supposed to be for in the first place.

I'm sympathetic to an extent, but all I can think of is the X Legacy Collection: four good-to-great games on the first volume, four poor-to-awful games on the second. One is clearly better than the other, and it's not a question of emulation quality.