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Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity 2 sold like shit. (~110,000 sales)
- Thread starter shiftplusone
- Start date
Eh, not that surprised.
I don't really like RTW/P combat, played through the majority of PoE as a action game using a mod menu to make all skills always available and several other changes that basically removed most of the archaic nonsense that the game was trying to put forth, bc I wanted to experience the world and writing of the world, and even that was .. pretty bland and boring, honestly. It wasn't what I was expecting from an Obsidian game, tbqh
Hopefully under MS they'll have the budget and time to really get things done
I don't really like RTW/P combat, played through the majority of PoE as a action game using a mod menu to make all skills always available and several other changes that basically removed most of the archaic nonsense that the game was trying to put forth, bc I wanted to experience the world and writing of the world, and even that was .. pretty bland and boring, honestly. It wasn't what I was expecting from an Obsidian game, tbqh
Hopefully under MS they'll have the budget and time to really get things done
I didn't even know it had released and I feel like that may be playing a factor in their sales. While I'm not getting it until the console release, I'm on top of my gaming news and releases pretty well regardless of platform. I haven't seen a single ad or promotion for this game yet either. I love Obsidian but whoever is running the show over there is dropping the ball.
The mechanics are fairly complex and the game isn't always successful at communicating the details, but I'm not sure if that's an issue of modernity, or something that distinguishes it from the DoS games, for instance. I don't find the that the DoS games explain their mechanics particularly well (after dozens of hours, I don't feel like I've really internalized them) and I find making character build choices to be much more difficult in DoS, because there's much more flexibility and much less guidance. Basically just had to read a FAQ to not screw it up.
I dunno. I believe in word of mouth just as much as a good marketing campaign and I'll go out on a limb and say that while PoE2 had good RPG gameplay systems, I think its lack of a good tale and moments that really resonated in a lasting way with players, people haven't spread the word and reviewers also didn't really hype it up more than "it's a solid RPG". I think that matters a lot too. In terms of popularity it just fell under the radar on that front.
I strongly disagree. BG is a classic for it's time. But PoE 1 has it beats in terms of mechanics, and PoE2 expanded on it. The pathing, enemy AI, visual clarity and ease of execution in combat, inventory management, interacting with companions, and quest log are all vastly better in PoE then BG.
Also, it's subjective sure, but BG does look notably worse the PoE in terms of graphics but that's fine that's not what I come to BG for anyway. BG has dated graphics by 1998 standards. Fallout 2 came out in 1998 and blows BG away in that department.
It's still getting a console release right? I doubt it will help the sales figures too much but I played the first Pillars on my PS4 and I was planning to do the same with Pillars 2. I don't know how well the first game sold on consoles though.
Man I am going to go buy a copy rn.
Love these devs, love these games. Pillars 1 and Tyranny were amazing.
Love these devs, love these games. Pillars 1 and Tyranny were amazing.
BG or BG2? BG2 is by far a better game. It's not even close. Divinity OS2 almost reaches that level though.
Even the first BG has a better story and companions. Most issues come from low level DnD combat shenanigans.
PoE2 should have sold more but being a direct sequel greatly hindered them. Then word of mouth was a bit meh due to companion quests and iffy mainline quest.
Edit: Personally I enjoyed PoE2 a lot more then 1 and thought it was good/almost great game but one that needed a bit more budget and work. They didn't nail the sequel like Larian has done with Divinity 2 coming from D:OS.
Having some successes doesn't necessarily mean it's not shrinking. I don't think the same audience is there as it was in the 90's or early 2000's. There are failures in every genre, but the sales numbers for each speaks to each one's popularity respectively.
Again, Divinity OS2 has done very very well. It will hit over 2 million lifetime which is as good as in BG/BG2/Fallout days. The difference is that D:OS2 was extremely well received and rated, had a much better marketing approach, and wasn't a direct sequel. Well and let's be serious, it was nearly flawless and has led great MP modes.
Honestly a part of me thinks it's a bit of market saturation on Obsidian's part.
The 'demand' for Isometric RPG's has been kind of sated since PoE 1's launch, and moving to Fig absolutely didn't do them any favors
(and tbh, PoE didn't really 'hit it out of the park' for me compared to D:OS2, so I can see why demand for a sequel would be lower, even if that sequel does a lot of stuff better than its predecessor).
But now I'm kind of worried for Wasteland 3 at this point >_>.
The 'demand' for Isometric RPG's has been kind of sated since PoE 1's launch, and moving to Fig absolutely didn't do them any favors
(and tbh, PoE didn't really 'hit it out of the park' for me compared to D:OS2, so I can see why demand for a sequel would be lower, even if that sequel does a lot of stuff better than its predecessor).
But now I'm kind of worried for Wasteland 3 at this point >_>.
It's a very well made game but just a bit flavorless, a direct sequel, and had very little marketing.
I'm really excited to re-play through Kingmaker in 6 months once that game's seen like two dozen more polishing passes, lol.
I'm really excited to re-play through Kingmaker in 6 months once that game's seen like two dozen more polishing passes, lol.
Just to be clear, I don't mean story or even dialog, which I think are too subjective to have a strong opinion on anyway. Just the mechanics. Like when I said interacting with companions I just meant the mechanics of how it lets you know when there's companion stuff going on, how youre able to interact with them and how they interact with each other. I might not be rememebring POE 1 very clearly, but I know for sure PoE 2 had excellent systems for all this stuff that in my opinion were agood evolution of the companion stuff in the BG series.
If you mean something other than the companion stuff then I'll have to ask you to clarify because outside of the nostalgia factor and how you feel about the plot/writing I just don't see where the infinity engine games even come close mechanically
This is why InXile made the Wasteland 2 Director's cut version with gamepad controls to play the game from a console.
Console sales + PC sales made the game profitable.
There is money to be made with top down RPG's that play very close to a traditionnal PC RPG , provided that you adapt your controls to consoles and that you make money on both platforms.
Console sales + PC sales made the game profitable.
There is money to be made with top down RPG's that play very close to a traditionnal PC RPG , provided that you adapt your controls to consoles and that you make money on both platforms.
This isn't true at all. The first Pillars did very well and co existed with the first divinity just fine. Pillars 2 failed because if everything everyone has already said in this thread
Bad Marketing
Direct sequel to a game I doubt too many people beat
sea/pirate theme was off putting
I bought the game day one and still haven't played it because I havent beaten the dlc of the first one yet.
For reference, Baldur's Gate 2, the most successful of the Infinity Engine games, sold 2 million copies after five years of release.
Divinity 2 has sold more than that already--BEFORE the Definitive Edition or console versions.
I strongly suspect the audience for these games is bigger, not smaller, than in the 90s/early 2000s. That said, if you mean in relative terms (ie. The mindshare for these types of RPGs compared to others, and as a percentage of total game sales) you might be right.
PoE1 DLC is still the best of what these two games have to offer imo.
Divinity is a thousand times more accessible and open than any infinity engine title or either pillars game.
They aren't the same audience in the least.
Selling like 300k was a success during the old school era. And when it comes to the type of CRPG Pillars is an homage to, there were only a handful of games in the subgenre in total, none of which sold in numbers that would make eyes pop by modern standards.
If you aren't making a game you're OK selling maybe 50-100k of, you probably shouldn't bother making a CRPG unless you have some kind of built-in fanbase you can depend on. But that's how it's always been.
Divinity has eclipsed the late 90's/early 00's era of CRPGs. It's a stable genre as long as expectations are in line for what it has always been. Pillars had the pedigree going in, pulled in the eyeballs for their Kickstarter and release window, but didn't make a game people came back for more of. Larian was known primarily for eurojank cult CRPGs, but their fresh start with Original Sin was great enough that their sequel pulled back old players and brought in lots of new ones. And Kingmaker proves that there's still an audience for Baldur's Gate-style games; just not one called "Pillars of Eternity 2" apparently.
While it isn't the same subgenre as Pillars, a similar thing happened with Legend of Grimrock. There was a ton of hype. People thought they wanted an old school dungeon crawler with updated graphics and GUI. What they got was a solid but fairly unmemorable Dungeon Master clone. Grimrock 2 ended up being much more the game people probably assumed the original would be; even people who hated the first have loved the second. But it bombed. Few wanted to come back for more of what the first one had to offer.
Hell, we even got a funny retro update version of this with the remasters of BG1 and BG2. Tons of people bought the original, which is a pretty sparse game that was much more exciting when the mechanics were brand new. BG2 is the real reason the series is revered... but people didn't buy in for the remake that actually mattered in anywhere near the numbers of the first. BG2 may well be one of the best games ever made, and it has the reputation to back it up. But many people who tried out BG1 in the modern era did not give it a chance.
You can't afford to make a bad impression with games that take such a heavy time investment. Hype won't save you, only a really exceptional game will. We'll see how Kingmaker 2 goes, I guess.
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I meant that in BG2 there was more banter/interactions and more involved quests with key companions (obviously not every single availabile party member) vs PoE2.
BG2 was also a much more expansive games with a lot more quests, encounters and side quests as well as a much better main villain. The encounter design in general was very good if somewhat mage heavy.
On the combat, I usually play mage characters in these games and playing a Wizard or a Sorceror in BG2 was a metric ton more satisfying vs playing a Wizard or a Druid. More options, more flexibility, more spells (especially with mods), etc...
Separately, on target market, PoE2 and Divinity OS2 are absolutely the same target market of a fairly complex CRPG in traditional isometric format despite one being RTwP and the other Turn-Based. The genre is small enough, it's crazy to try to delineate it further.
I'm guilty
Bought PoE 1 on day 1. Enjoyed it, but felt neither strong feelings towards it. As such, PoE 2 did nothing for me, and all of the marketing blitz was barely existant or just focused on Kickstarter updates for the followers.
They failed to convince me on why I should play PoE 2.
Bought PoE 1 on day 1. Enjoyed it, but felt neither strong feelings towards it. As such, PoE 2 did nothing for me, and all of the marketing blitz was barely existant or just focused on Kickstarter updates for the followers.
They failed to convince me on why I should play PoE 2.
That sucks to hear. I don't think selling three versions (Base, Base+extras, Base+extras+DLC) helped since the top edition cost a bit.
I think it's also worth remembering that a lot of people crowdfunded it. For a niche game like Deadfire the crowdfunding will likely be most of it's revenue. Even if it had good word of mouth like Divinity OS2 this would still the case.
I think it's also worth remembering that a lot of people crowdfunded it. For a niche game like Deadfire the crowdfunding will likely be most of it's revenue. Even if it had good word of mouth like Divinity OS2 this would still the case.
That's not right in case of Divinity OS2. It sold 2 million copies with 130K on Kickstarter I think.
It's over 2 million on Steam alone. There's also GOG and console sales as well. No doubt there is absolutely still an audience here.
Since everyone is throwing their opinion about the game in, my two cents: I found PoE 2 a net improvement over the first in almost every possible area, from production value and aesthetic to mechanics (still flawed, to be clear, but I can hardly think of any criticism I wouldn't apply to the first as well).
I also like pirate-themed settings and I find them extremely underused in quality productions, so fuck people who complain about them!
And I couldn't disagree more with Derrick's claim that "the voice over ruined the product". First because it wasn't half bad, second because if anything I'd guess that without it and forcing people to read every single line it would have performed even worse in terms of sales and that would have made it absolutely NOT palatable for a console release.
Especially in an age where streamers are a big influence for the player base and they tend to drop very quickly games that force them to read to their viewers every line aloud.
That said, I wouldn't blame people for skipping the sequel after finding the first one fairly mediocre myself.
Also, I'll jump on the wagon of people who vastly preferred both the Original Sin games from Larian to PoE 1 and 2. ESPECIALLY on the combat side.
Bought Pathfinder Kingmaker too but I have yet to give the game any proper attention. So far I played just the tutorial and I can't really say I was particularly impressed by it, but I guess its popularity is there to point that there are qualities to be found in the game.
I also like pirate-themed settings and I find them extremely underused in quality productions, so fuck people who complain about them!
And I couldn't disagree more with Derrick's claim that "the voice over ruined the product". First because it wasn't half bad, second because if anything I'd guess that without it and forcing people to read every single line it would have performed even worse in terms of sales and that would have made it absolutely NOT palatable for a console release.
Especially in an age where streamers are a big influence for the player base and they tend to drop very quickly games that force them to read to their viewers every line aloud.
That said, I wouldn't blame people for skipping the sequel after finding the first one fairly mediocre myself.
Also, I'll jump on the wagon of people who vastly preferred both the Original Sin games from Larian to PoE 1 and 2. ESPECIALLY on the combat side.
Bought Pathfinder Kingmaker too but I have yet to give the game any proper attention. So far I played just the tutorial and I can't really say I was particularly impressed by it, but I guess its popularity is there to point that there are qualities to be found in the game.
i dont think there is enough space for that many crpgs at once, no matter how good they all ended up being
one of them would get the short end of the stick and it was Pillars 2. and i think deep down obsidian knew it as well hence why they're probably being sold to MS
one of them would get the short end of the stick and it was Pillars 2. and i think deep down obsidian knew it as well hence why they're probably being sold to MS
Nah, the last reason is easily proven a weak argument by... Well, pretty much ANY PC game selling well at launch, really.
"Being sold to MS" is most likely a consequence of the poor sales (and more in general their financial struggling), not really part of some preventive plan they made to avoid PoE 2's future failure.
Hoping this is a joke post. Either way stupid shit like this doesn't help anyone. Just cause you like one game more than another doesn't mean games you don't are shit and or shouldn't find success as well.
This kind of nonsense and rhetoric popped up in nearly every PoE vs DOS discussion did not help at all and is just way too prevalent in games discussions.
This is the case for a lot of games, which is why you see a lot of the above where people aren't happy to just enjoy a game but have this need to declare one game the winner and every other game like it shit and losers.
The same crap occurred with Dragon Age and The Witcher 3, despite those two game having even less in common than PoE and DOS. And it happens in every genre, difference here being the hardcore cRPG market, while maybe bigger than back in the day, still is very small and occupies a much smaller piece of the overall gaming mindshare than it once did.
Yeah, I know. Divinity OS2 was a sequel to a well-regarded game that was still sorta niche. OS2 then reviewed amazingly well, and hence sold a lot of copies. Pillars 2 is a sequel to a CRPG that peaked with its audience (i.e. most people interested in crpgs bought it) but some weren't impressed. Pillars 2 didn't review much better than the first, so anyone who was hoping that Pillars 2 would be better was disappointed. There's a common sentiment that you can play OS2 without playing the first one because OS2 is better in everyway, while Pillars 2 is a sequel through and through. That same reason is why alot of the first game's audience backed Pillars 2 (and now thins) compared to OS1 to OS2 (where there were less backers, but more purchases on release after reviews).
I like both games but Pillars 2 was mostly just more Pillars, and that's why it didn't grow the audience.
Ohhh, yeah, you show that strawman! Ya got 'im on the ropes!
I didn't say PoE was shit. From what little I played it was... thoroughly unremarkable but generally sufficient.
I didn't say it shouldn't find success. I personally don't care. I didn't kickstart it and I'm not invested in it.
I merely said I wasn't surprised to see it flounder when there are far superior offerings available on the market. Same as how, for example, I wasn't surprised to see Titanfall 2 flounder when it launched right between Call of Duty and Battlefield.
You want to take me up on that then go ahead. But kindly put some fucking effort into it. For starters, try taking me up on what I actually said instead of the things you imagine I said.
That was my takeaway as well when it comes to the difference in their success
Well, on a positive note the game is not going anywhere and you'll still have your chance to buy it when the time comes.
As already pointed it's a fair improvement over the first, too.
i'm not saying that Pillars2 bombing is what made they need to be sold to microsoft if thats what you got from my post
just that they probably already started talks with MS during/after release because they probably knew it wouldnt be the game that would turn their fortunes around that drastically
Deadfire reviewed very well. I can't speak for the balance of reviews, but the ones I read had much higher praise than "solid RPG."
I agree, however, that the story was probably a liability in generating word-of-mouth. I think if you're already a niche RPG, and you don't have flashy features like cutting-edge graphics or multiplayer or sandbox-y gameplay that plays well on Twitch, then your best bet is probably to have a story or characters that connect with people. You want a lot more romance and melodrama.* Deadfire, even setting aside the execution problems, was not trying to tell that kind of story.
*I mean this in a value-neutral way.
It's also a more entertaining game overall I felt. All in all, you can really look up a summary for the first game and go into second, IMO. Otherwise one can just get bogged down as the first game really stalled in places.
Stop being stupid about this and don't tell people to put more effort in when you put nothing in yourself. Plenty of supposedly inferior games outsell superior games in their own genre. You could have said something like how general audiences tend go more for D:OS2's strengths in combat and multiplayer and less for POE2's strengths in the character system and itemization or whatever but instead you just put in the bare minimum and then whatever that verbal diarrhea was when called on it.
Why would I say that when I have no idea whether or not it's true?
I don't know the specific reasons for other people preferring one game over another.
Considering that the "calling out" consisted entirely of attributing views to me that I never expressed?
Yeah, not impressed. I sincerely believe you folks can do better than that.
Hold your yourself to the standards you hold other people to because honestly you haven't shown that us folks should do better than that. How do you know Divinity: Original Sin 2 is a superior offering to most people that it would cause Pillars of Eternity 2 to sell poorly?
I don't know it. That would be an awfully difficult thing to prove.
I merely suspect it be true, to a degree that I am not surprised by this outcome. So... exactly what I said in my original post.
