There's a bit more money per episode, though not loads. Partially influenced by the decrease in episodes a year, too. I think you can see it on-screen though.
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Doctor Who Series 11 |OT|- She’s Here, and It’s About Time
- Thread starter Dwebble
- Start date
There's a bit more money per episode, though not loads. Partially influenced by the decrease in episodes a year, too. I think you can see it on-screen though.
To me, the series with the best cinematography, and possibly budget, was series 5. But yes, it does generally feel like the budget has increased from series to series, and I do think that so far series 11 has been shot beautifully, and appears to have a higher budget.
But, not to forget that we now have less episodes, so that may mean an increase in budget per episode too?
Speaking of men giving birth...
I loved Red Dwarf form the start, but I totally get your point.
I honestly think the way this series has been shot has been sublime, there's a bit of movement to the camera that makes it full like it has a bigger budget than it actually does.
Reminds me of Firefly and how it was shot.
Reminds me of Firefly and how it was shot.
Series 5 was definitely the biggest jump Who has had for production values and conemtography, but the budget was actually the lowest yet for the series. IMO for Capaldi after Deep Breath and a lot of Series 8 - the anamatronic teller in Time Heist - seemed very expensive the budget felt like it was decreasing per series.
Series 11 has had a few nice shots and a nice aspect ratio but also some really weird close-ups at bizarre angles with an extremely shallow depth of field that looks amateur.
What a strange episode. Simultaneously a buffet of side plots yet starving of anything substantial.
What we saw:
- The Doctor and Malbi hunting the P'Ting
- Graham and Ryan delivering a baby
- Yaz and Ronan protecting the antimatter generator
- Eve and Durkas piloting the ship to the base
(I had to go to Wikipedia for each character's name, because absolutely none of them stuck with me. In fact I feel we're only just now coming to know the companions -- without looking, what are their last names?)
And yet…
The creature. It was a chance encounter with a hungry mouth. The ship's exposition computer told us of its danger, in that it puts the ship and thereby its occupants at harm, but it was undercut by not presenting it as malicious (oh, the wasted potential of a space-themed version of WWII's gremlins). Maybe it's due to kid-friendly reasons, eat the ship instead of eating people, but it did remove some of the teeth (heh) from the threat.
Graham and Ryan. Their function as comic relief seemed unnecessary in a plot that did not present the tension it was convinced it had. Though the second function of this sidelining, the adding to Ryan's backstory and giving he and Graham an opportunity to bond, gave it some purpose. I just wish it was purpose served in a more integral manner, as opposed to literally putting them in a room over here while everyone else is over there.
Yaz. Poor Yaz. Pretty sure her first line wasn't until the crew was explaining the purpose of the medic transport, when she piped up with "Like the Red Cross". And then we were Yaz-less until they reached the antimatter generator, when she summed it up with "Like CERN". I know us earthling viewers need a real-world basis of comparison now and again, but a double barrel of it between little else made it stand out all the more. If you've got a police officer as a companion, please give her something more to do -- restrain a problematic patient, act as hostage negotiator, I dunno, find footprints to follow. Still, at least she got to shoot the floor and kick a baby in a blanket.
And maybe it's just me, but if you're going to remove the sonic to prevent magic wand plot resolutions, don't just give it back when you need to perform a magic wand plot development. The Doctor's a resourceful sort, let's see another way of revealing the bomb rather than the sonic's version of abracadabra.
I sound like a grump. I'm trying not to be. I'll shut up now.
What we saw:
- The Doctor and Malbi hunting the P'Ting
- Graham and Ryan delivering a baby
- Yaz and Ronan protecting the antimatter generator
- Eve and Durkas piloting the ship to the base
(I had to go to Wikipedia for each character's name, because absolutely none of them stuck with me. In fact I feel we're only just now coming to know the companions -- without looking, what are their last names?)
And yet…
The creature. It was a chance encounter with a hungry mouth. The ship's exposition computer told us of its danger, in that it puts the ship and thereby its occupants at harm, but it was undercut by not presenting it as malicious (oh, the wasted potential of a space-themed version of WWII's gremlins). Maybe it's due to kid-friendly reasons, eat the ship instead of eating people, but it did remove some of the teeth (heh) from the threat.
Graham and Ryan. Their function as comic relief seemed unnecessary in a plot that did not present the tension it was convinced it had. Though the second function of this sidelining, the adding to Ryan's backstory and giving he and Graham an opportunity to bond, gave it some purpose. I just wish it was purpose served in a more integral manner, as opposed to literally putting them in a room over here while everyone else is over there.
Yaz. Poor Yaz. Pretty sure her first line wasn't until the crew was explaining the purpose of the medic transport, when she piped up with "Like the Red Cross". And then we were Yaz-less until they reached the antimatter generator, when she summed it up with "Like CERN". I know us earthling viewers need a real-world basis of comparison now and again, but a double barrel of it between little else made it stand out all the more. If you've got a police officer as a companion, please give her something more to do -- restrain a problematic patient, act as hostage negotiator, I dunno, find footprints to follow. Still, at least she got to shoot the floor and kick a baby in a blanket.
And maybe it's just me, but if you're going to remove the sonic to prevent magic wand plot resolutions, don't just give it back when you need to perform a magic wand plot development. The Doctor's a resourceful sort, let's see another way of revealing the bomb rather than the sonic's version of abracadabra.
I sound like a grump. I'm trying not to be. I'll shut up now.
Finally watched the latest episode. I'm still enjoying the new season, and I love the actors, but still not that happy with the writing.
By the by, true story: After the creature (who was pretty much Nibbler from Futurama) was introduced, I actually thought to myself, "I'm not sure I can feel scared by a creature I feel like I could easily punt across the room," and later Yaz did exactly that. I had a pretty good laugh.
By the by, true story: After the creature (who was pretty much Nibbler from Futurama) was introduced, I actually thought to myself, "I'm not sure I can feel scared by a creature I feel like I could easily punt across the room," and later Yaz did exactly that. I had a pretty good laugh.
If anyone feels like a little detour from this week's episode, I thought it might be fun to talk about theme music. I've compiled a list (not quite exhaustive, I'm sure I've missed a few) below of as many of the TV themes as I could remember, as well as some of the Big Finish attempts.
TV
First Doctor
Second Doctor
(Unused) Third Doctor "Delaware"
Third and Fourth Doctor
Late Fourth, Fifth and Sixth Doctor
Sixth Doctor (Trial of a Time Lord)
Seventh Doctor
Eighth Doctor
Ninth and Tenth Doctor
Late Tenth Doctor
Eleventh Doctor
Late Eleventh Doctor
Eleventh Doctor (Day of the Doctor)
Twelfth Doctor
Twelfth Doctor (Guitar Variant)
Thirteenth Doctor
Big Finish
Seventh Doctor "Damaged Goods"
Eighth Doctor (Big Finish A)
Eighth Doctor (Big Finish B)
"The Light at the End"
War Doctor
Bonus
Alt Ninth Doctor (Scream of the Shalka)
The Day of the Doctor 50th Anniversary Trailer
On TV, the variant of the original made for Troughton's era is my favourite from the early lot. The later version loses a lot I think by cutting the intro short. Later on, the Howell and Glynn themes are fine (well, the Glynn theme is a bit rubbish), but I have a lot of love for the much maligned Keff McCulloch theme. As divisive as it is, it always felt to me like a bold take with a strong vision behind it, and I dug how it worked with the visuals. Rounding out the old days, I have a tremendous amount of nostalgic love for the TV Movie theme. Loud, triumphant and unapologetic.
In the new series, Gold's 2005 and 2010 themes are my favourites, though Capaldi's theme I think is often reviewed a bit more harshly than it deserves. I like Akinola's 2018 theme too, it's an interesting take.
Over at Big Finish... well, it's really only David Arnold's Eighth Doctor theme that stands out. It's a mysterious, ambient take that I like a lot. All of the other themes I find to be kinda amateurish, both in concept and execution.
What does everyone else think? Hit me up if I missed any (or if any of my links are busted)!
TV
First Doctor
Second Doctor
(Unused) Third Doctor "Delaware"
Third and Fourth Doctor
Late Fourth, Fifth and Sixth Doctor
Sixth Doctor (Trial of a Time Lord)
Seventh Doctor
Eighth Doctor
Ninth and Tenth Doctor
Late Tenth Doctor
Eleventh Doctor
Late Eleventh Doctor
Eleventh Doctor (Day of the Doctor)
Twelfth Doctor
Twelfth Doctor (Guitar Variant)
Thirteenth Doctor
Big Finish
Seventh Doctor "Damaged Goods"
Eighth Doctor (Big Finish A)
Eighth Doctor (Big Finish B)
"The Light at the End"
War Doctor
Bonus
Alt Ninth Doctor (Scream of the Shalka)
The Day of the Doctor 50th Anniversary Trailer
On TV, the variant of the original made for Troughton's era is my favourite from the early lot. The later version loses a lot I think by cutting the intro short. Later on, the Howell and Glynn themes are fine (well, the Glynn theme is a bit rubbish), but I have a lot of love for the much maligned Keff McCulloch theme. As divisive as it is, it always felt to me like a bold take with a strong vision behind it, and I dug how it worked with the visuals. Rounding out the old days, I have a tremendous amount of nostalgic love for the TV Movie theme. Loud, triumphant and unapologetic.
In the new series, Gold's 2005 and 2010 themes are my favourites, though Capaldi's theme I think is often reviewed a bit more harshly than it deserves. I like Akinola's 2018 theme too, it's an interesting take.
Over at Big Finish... well, it's really only David Arnold's Eighth Doctor theme that stands out. It's a mysterious, ambient take that I like a lot. All of the other themes I find to be kinda amateurish, both in concept and execution.
What does everyone else think? Hit me up if I missed any (or if any of my links are busted)!
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The Who podcasts I listen to have been very positive about it; Doctor Who flashcast from the Incomparable's Teevee feed is reasonably cheerful so far, and This Week In Time Travel seemed very upbeat. Radio Free Skaro was the most negative, but still not quite as bitter as the sentiment I've seen in some other places. The fourth I listen to on a regular basis - Verity! - isn't out yet.
I like the snippet of theme they did for the 50th anniversary trailer. Wish there was a full version of it.
12th Doctor, electric guitar from Before the Flood; love that one!
I am enjoying the new series. I loved the Moffat era, but I was definitely ready for the Doctor to be ratcheted down to something that felt more like their role in classic Who. Jodie's "I'm just a traveller" and "I do what I can" lines really resonated with me.
This made me not mind the panic over her TARDIS so much - she's coming to and the ship isn't clearly in imminent danger at that time. She's free in that moment to be focussed on her own needs and her companions'. Remember - her last two companions died, and she virtually swore companions off as an idea after Clara's death alone.
I also really like the recurring motif of Whittaker just expressing a love and awe for things in the Universe. It feels like a wholly new kind of appreciation, maybe closer to the 8th Doctor than any in NuWho (I have no experience with 3-7).
The writing is less sharp, which is also okay by me. There's a kind of "Marvel movie" style of dialogue that has taken over a lot of things, and I am fine with taking a break for it in Who and having folks be more grounded in the moment, rather than breaking things up with zingers. If anything, I think Whittaker's quippy lines sometimes feel out of place for the episodes, but she is still The Doctor after all.
All that said, outside of Rosa (which would have been so so different and overstated in Moffat/RTD era) I agree that the episode should have been lacking a bit of memorability from a moment to moment standpoint. Could use a more unusual plot for one of them very soon (though another historical will also do nicely).
This made me not mind the panic over her TARDIS so much - she's coming to and the ship isn't clearly in imminent danger at that time. She's free in that moment to be focussed on her own needs and her companions'. Remember - her last two companions died, and she virtually swore companions off as an idea after Clara's death alone.
I also really like the recurring motif of Whittaker just expressing a love and awe for things in the Universe. It feels like a wholly new kind of appreciation, maybe closer to the 8th Doctor than any in NuWho (I have no experience with 3-7).
The writing is less sharp, which is also okay by me. There's a kind of "Marvel movie" style of dialogue that has taken over a lot of things, and I am fine with taking a break for it in Who and having folks be more grounded in the moment, rather than breaking things up with zingers. If anything, I think Whittaker's quippy lines sometimes feel out of place for the episodes, but she is still The Doctor after all.
All that said, outside of Rosa (which would have been so so different and overstated in Moffat/RTD era) I agree that the episode should have been lacking a bit of memorability from a moment to moment standpoint. Could use a more unusual plot for one of them very soon (though another historical will also do nicely).
I really like the silly miscellaneous themes that appear across various media:
Doctor Who and the Pirates (Big Finish)
The Horror of Glam Rock (Big Finish)
I am the Doctor - John Pertwee (1972) It's dumb and camp and deserved to be a disco classic.
Doctor Who - Mankind Has an amazing middle eight.
Doctor Who 'The Ron Grainer concept'
Doctorin' The Tardis (How to Have a Number One Hit the Easy Way)
You're missing the version from the end of the Five Doctors. It takes clips of the Hartnell version slightly sped up and pitched up to segue into the 1980s theme
Some other variations:
-The original 1963 pilot has some extra sound effects not used in the final version.
-Pertwee's first two stories don't have the sting on the end credits. Spearhead from Space has some weird edits so that the sequence ends with the grinding sound that ended almost every episode in the 70s. Doctor Who and the Silurians just plays the music in full (no stinger).
-There's the little stinger recaps from Ambassadors of Death (this is where the famous sting was first used). These came after the cliffhanger was reprised from the previous episode).
the first few pertwee seasons have a little stutter at the start of the music, this disappears from season 10.
-Some of Jon Pertwee's second season use the Troughton music over the opening titles (and as such they don't sync up as well.
-There's an ultra short version of the 70's end titles that was never used on an episode (it's on some of the older CDs and on the Genesis of the Daleks spoken word album)
- The end titles to Meglos have the music played at a slightly lower pitch.
-The Colin Baker version of the 80s has some small tweaks to EQing apparently, it just sounds a little bassier to me, that's all
-The Shada recon has a new edit of the theme tune on its credit sequences
-The leaked version of Rose had an edit of the 70s Theme rather than first Gold version.
So apparently when the first mix of theme was presented to the original producer Verity Lambert in 1963, she said it needed to be more organic sounding, so a new version was down with slightly different timing and that's what we heard in the Hartnell serials and for the end credits of a lot of Troughton stories. That original version with the better timing is what forms the basis of the opening titles from Troughton stories and what we heard all through the 1970s and again those bits are what hear occasionally in the 2005 version.
Its my favourite tune and the fact it was originally made up from bits of hundreds of bits of tape still amazes me. However, my absolute fave is the early 80s version by Peter Howell.
There's also the moment where she notes that the video recorder is 'like my uniform camera' where I internally went "Aww, poor Yaz". Can you imagine if any other modern series companion had literally just stood around making contemporary metaphors and not much else. Assuming she actually gets something to do in the next episode that's five episodes of next to nothing which is an impressive streak.
When I started watching as a kid I grew up on Tom Baker repeats and Sylvester McCoy. I absolutely loved the 7th Doctor's theme (paired with the best title sequence, IMO) and still think it's the most underrated. Objectively, the 5th Doctor's theme is 2nd best only to the original of the Classic themes. The 10th Doctor's remains the best of Nu Who. I think with a few tweaks the 13th Doctor's could be just as great but in its current form it falls short.
I think the episodes are a bit too long. All these episodes get a little bit boring in the middle and feel like they drag, like a season of a Marvel Netflix show.
It was ok otherwise. I enjoyed the monster basically being like Kirby, an unstoppable eating machine. Good moment with Ryan. Decent moments with the ship's side characters.
Just not enough a snappy pace for me.
It was ok otherwise. I enjoyed the monster basically being like Kirby, an unstoppable eating machine. Good moment with Ryan. Decent moments with the ship's side characters.
Just not enough a snappy pace for me.
It's just struck me: The next episode is going to go out on Remembrance Sunday; it'll be interesting to see if the episode captures Britain's hugely negative impact during the Partition, and - if they do pull no punches - if the likes of the more rabble-rousy papers get all "It's not PATRIOTIC to dare point out historical shames, on this, the most PATRIOTIC of days!".
Yeah, well if anybody thinks there was anything noble and patriotic about the Great War, they're probably a lost cause anyway.
I'm legitimately stoked to hear some praise for the 7th Doctor's titles. After so many years of variations on "travelling through a tunnel", what they did for Sylvester's era must've felt incredibly bold and fresh. It's easy to look back on it and chuckle at how distinctly 80s it is, but beyond those trapping it's full of creative ideas, and the execution is polished, if dated. It's a great match for McCulloch's music, and I wouldn't change a thing.
Random question: does anyone know what episode represented the show's first usage of CGI? (As in, effects within an episode, not the 80s-era title sequence.) I'm thinking it was that whole TARDIS-crashing-into-a-rainbow bit, but I'm not sure.
Seems that sequence from Time and the Rani is, yeah. I think they had computer generated 2D images appear on in-universe screens before that.
I'm looking at the model sequences from Trial of a Time Lord and I think there might be *some* CG touching things up, but I'm not certain
The docking at the end *might* be assisted with a bit of CG. Really not sure, though!
no CG there. It was all down with motion control and multiple exposures onto film. Before McCoy's titles the only computer graphics on the show where naff BBC Micro stuff for computer displays and very occasionally some Video effects (like the lasers in the chessboard sequence in the Five Doctors)
In the very late 70s, they begun using video effects machines like Quantel Paintbox (used for digitally zooming a video image in post production- you can see this a lot in Tom Baker's last season) and later post-production graphics computers like Quantel Harry but they were capable of things like painting in a second moon like you might do in photoshop or some simple (but time consuming 2D animation). Very much like photoshop that Quantel sued Adobe at one point.
That would also have been used for things like the Dalek extermination effect in Remembrance of the Daleks (the first time they used the Xray effect). It took 3 days and you only see it once as a result.
I think the McCoy credits and one quick FX shot in the teaser to Time and the Rani are the only 3D CG in the classic series, though there's little bit in the 1996 TV Movie.
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They paid CAL Video £20,000 to do the CGI for Time and the Rani and the 7th Doctor's title sequence. I'm surprised they could afford it. I always wondered if the bubble traps were CGI as well because they looked pretty cool for the time.
http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/CGI
http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/CGI
Apparently Jeremy Vine had an item today asking if Doctor Who has become too politically correct since the "ratings have dropped". The ratings are great???
So far better than almost all of Capaldi and Matt's last season, specials aside.
They've been going down each episode. Maybe that's what he's getting at.
Keep in mind that the Rosa parks episode is the only political one in the entire season. Like, what policies are being promoted by the fucking P'Ting episode?
"Politically correct" itself has become the politically correct term for something darker and uglier. They're not concerned about politics, they're just antsy about a woman being the doctor. That isn't political, it's misogynistic.
Edit: Scratch that, there was also the spider episode. So fine, 2 whole episodes.
I think the tweet specifically cites the man giving birth.
I've just realised it was Jeremy Vine's Channel 5 show not his Radio 2 show, which explains a lot.
Felt like the same thing happened during capaldi's first season. Not sure though.
OP
OP
The past three episodes have been as close to each other as to make no difference.
Even then, the ratings have gone from the biggest thing on TV to the third biggest thing on TV. I doubt there's anyone losing sleep over that.
The term "politically correct" has always been a way to attempt to delegitimize certain opinions. It's usually used by right wing pundits. Its first use in the UK was in the 1980s by Ann Leslie, who didn't like the progressive policies of the Greater London Council under Ken Livingstone.
Yeah. It always happens. Moffat even designed certain seasons to have a mid-season bump to try and get ratings back up.
I've heard certain things in discussion at work brought up:
Female doctor
Black companion
Asian companion
Companion who was part of a mixed race relationship
Rosa Parks episode.
The male pregnancy and references to 'deadbeat' dads.
Trump references
Etc
Meanwhile I'm trying to get across that it is the writing that is poor, not the progressive ideas. Doctor Who has always been progressive. It's among the most progressive around.
OP
OP
The ratings dropped because there was no way to keep up the feverish hype of the opening episode, which did overperformed to an astonishing degree. That's it. In raw figures and particularly in chart positions, this is on to be the most successful Doctor Who series ever made, bar none.
Jeremy Vine's just echoing the Sun's mad contortions of the figures- there's no insight there.
Jeremy Vine's just echoing the Sun's mad contortions of the figures- there's no insight there.
Attributing the drop in ratings to "political correctness" (which just means "progressivism" to right-wingers) is utter nonsense.
As was said, even with this rather expected drop, the show is still ridiculously successful, but more importantly, when did Doctor Who stop being progressive for this season to really stick out? There are instances where it fell short, absolutely, but in the last 13 years it never strayed so far for the touchy conservatives to believe it's on their side.
Honestly, it's a bullshit narrative, same thing they did when they overblew the backlash over Jodie's casting.
There'd also be people who tuned in, gave it a shot but realized it's really not different enough for them to keep going.
Just like how there are people who didn't enjoy Moffat's era, there will be many who won't enjoy this one. But no way am I buying that those who aren't watching because it's "gotten politically correct" were watching to begin with. They're just idiots whining online.
As was said, even with this rather expected drop, the show is still ridiculously successful, but more importantly, when did Doctor Who stop being progressive for this season to really stick out? There are instances where it fell short, absolutely, but in the last 13 years it never strayed so far for the touchy conservatives to believe it's on their side.
Honestly, it's a bullshit narrative, same thing they did when they overblew the backlash over Jodie's casting.
Yeah, I'm not that thrilled over this season's stories either, and I'm sure I'm not alone. I'll never stop watching, but it wouldn't surprise me if others did.
There'd also be people who tuned in, gave it a shot but realized it's really not different enough for them to keep going.
Just like how there are people who didn't enjoy Moffat's era, there will be many who won't enjoy this one. But no way am I buying that those who aren't watching because it's "gotten politically correct" were watching to begin with. They're just idiots whining online.
Yeah, about the Moffat era. Am I really the only person who thinks the female protagonists he created or fostered really opened up the programme? River Song, Vastra and Jenny, Amy and Clara are for the most part fully realised characters.
Chris Chibnall couldn't do what he's doing now if we hadn't been carried along by the past decade and a half of Doctor Who. If there are people who genuinely think Jenny and Vastra are just same old safe stuff but having a female Doctor Who meeting Rosa Parks is political correctness gone mad, I'd genuinely like to hear their opinions.
Yeah, I'm not enjoying this season too much but not because it's "politically correct" or whatever the hell people mean by that, but because I'm just not enjoying the writing, characterisation and tone.
I do hope something will turn that around. I won't stop watching. I have faith.
The atmosphere is the main thing that bothers me. Doctor Who is campy and wholesome, but the show's new direction is just so overly serious. Everything is lit really dark and the music lacks the whimsical charm it had in the past.
This change in itself isn't a negative, but the stories are still campy and the monsters are still silly looking, so there's a lot of clash.
This change in itself isn't a negative, but the stories are still campy and the monsters are still silly looking, so there's a lot of clash.
Chibnall always wrote mediocre Who before he became showrunner and it doesn't look like that`s going to change. I would bet the core of what made Rosa great was the other writer and not Chibnall. I'm hoping the episodes by the other writers are much better and another Moffat like writer emerges who puts out great episodes and could potentially be the next showrunner.
I would love to be wrong about Chibnall but these early episodes aren't encouraging.
