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Oct 25, 2017
14,647
The scene where she's trying to turn around a medical spaceship because she wants to get back to her TARDIS is probably one of the most baffling character choices I've seen in a long time. I literally screwed my eyebrows up in confusion.

Like, sure, she wants to make sure it's safe, and she's a bit dazed and confused, but she's just nearly got her friends killed and she's on board a ship with who knows how many other injured people and she's acting like they left one of her companions behind. The Doctor constantly gets separated from the TARDIS; that's the set up to most stories.

It's stuff like that that makes it feel like Chibnall hasn't been watching the show for the past 13 years and so just binge-watched a few episodes, noted down that the Doctor is 'kooky', says 'weird stuff' and likes her TARDIS and ran with that.
So far this doctor seems lacking in mindfulness and confidence and it's throwing me through a loop.

In the pilot she got surprisingly sassy with a dude for killing a dude before she could kill him.
In Ghost Monument before the Tardis showed up, she flat out gave up and started waiting for death until her team told her to keep her chin up.
In Rosa when the villain got too lippy with her she just grumbled at him and walked away, leaving him to continue his timeline havok.
In Arachnids there doesn't seem to be any solid plan at all and the whole thing just fizzles out when a dude completely ignores her and ends the episode.
In Tsuranga she walks her team right into a mine and does jack shit about it, and her defining moment this time is needing to be thoroughly convinced that lives are more important than finding her ride.

the fuck is going on

Though I heard we're about to get to some episodes that aren't written by Chibs so maybe things are looking up. I'm going to keep chugging on regardless but it hasn't been a walk in the park.

I'm just happy the CC episodes are out of the way (for now). I've never really liked one of his episodes before he took over so I wasn't expecting much but I did like Rosa and the first episode which is something! Hopefully now the series can kick on a little because I still feel like somethings missing so far.

Rosa was the only episode so far where Chibs shared writing credit with another writer. Malorie Blackman.
Probably why I liked that one better.
 
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Alcoremortis

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,559
Should I watch Torchwood? I never did. Also I love Jack.

Depends on your tolerance for dark gritty TV. I watched the first three seasons of Torchwood and it was okay, but it was just so darn depressing all the time that I could never rewatch except for the two episodes with James Marsters, which were both enormous fun.
 

Nikus

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
10,362
It's bizarre to me, yeah. Like, there's no sense of panic in the character in Cold War or The Impossible Planet or any of the numerous other episodes where the Doctor thinks the TARDIS is lost.

The thing I'm getting off Jodie's Doctor so far is that she's like Smith in his later years. In series 5, Smith has a more layered portrayal of the Doctor. The kookiness is there, but there's also surprising darkness, self-doubt, anger, etc, plus him as a seventh Doctor-esque manipulator, even of his friends. A lot of this evaporates in Series 6 and 7. In a weird way, Smith's Doctor suffers what I call the 'post-regeneration retcon' early.

What I mean by this is always in the show's history once an actor playing the Doctor has moved on, their portrayal of the Doctor ends up being diluted down to its most memorable aspects if they return. You don't have time to re-establish them, so you just go for the beats most remembered by the audience and even play them up to the point where they're not actually accurate.

So when Troughton came back for later episodes, his Doctor was always played as 'the clown one', with the recorder and being bumbling. There was a lot more to Troughton's interpretation in his actual era - in fact, it's one of the most nuanced in the classic era - but when he returned, he was boiled down to The Clown. That's who his Doctor 'is'.

This is true in modern Doctor Who, too - in Day of the Doctor you get Tennant's version of the character boiled down to the romantic and the off-beat hero - so you get the grandstanding speech to the rabbit, the Elizabeth stuff, even flirting with Clara. We all know Tennant's Doctor was a lot more than that, but this is shorthand for his Doctor. The shorthand always means a returning Doctor does out-of-character stuff as part of the shortcut, too. The moment that stands out to me in Day of the Doctor is him doing this flirty, grinning as he turns a handshake with Clara's into kissing her hand when he says goodbye - that's not the sort of thing he ever actually did in his era (in fact, he always mostly bemused at each romantic advance upon him). He was never that smooth. But this is the post-regeneration retcon, the shorthand: he's the romantic Doctor. They even go in for the reaction shot of Smith watching him, looking bemused, like, "I can't believe I was like this." You can guarantee that when Smith returns he'll be the 'Goofy one' and Capaldi will be the 'no-nonsense shouty one' too, even though Capaldi's version is also quite tender.

Anyway. A curious thing about Moffat's era, and Smith's part of it in particular, is that Smith hits that phase straight away. Series 5 is more scattershot with characterization and so Smith can do more, but by Series 6 it feels like Moffat had watched back Series 5 a few times, decided what worked for Smith best and doubles down on those elements and does away with everything else. The same is actually true of Capaldi, but it's less so, I think in part because Capaldi was approaching it from a very different angle to Smith (as a fan) and was constantly cramming references to other past Doctors into his interpretation, which adds a lot of texture. It's weird, but I think they're both more shallow versions of the character when you take in the entirety of their work than Tennant despite amazing acting work from the leads... and it means that Smith and Capaldi's Doctors in particular have a lot to gain when they hit Big Finish.

I'll get to my point eventually. Bloody hell. Point is, I feel like Jodie's Doctor so far is almost like the Smith of Series 6 and 7, like she's missing a layer or two, like she's too stripped back. And that isn't her fault, she's brilliant - as with Smith's later series', it's in the writing.
Great post and I agree. Especially about Troughton, perfect example to prove your point. He's my favorite classic Doctor but I can't stand how he's written in the multi Doctor stories. I think about new fans who only watch these and they get a completely wrong idea of the character :<
 

Hexxen-panda

Member
Oct 25, 2017
210
Despite really liking the first four episodes, I'm really really not into this one at all.
The dialogue in the first half of the episode reminds me too much of Neil Breen movies, but with good actors and production values.
Even in the DW episodes I hate, I could still kinda see some of the ambition and ideas that they tried to convey but didn't stick the landing. I don't know what this episode was about conceptually or thematically.

Was it a budget thing that necessitated this episode, because I don't see why they would restrict this new Doctor to a single location with 3 corridors and a room. There were barely any exterior shots of the spaceship, which makes me think it's a budget episode or just rushed for whatever reason.

Having a stinker episode in the middle wouldn't sting as much if there were more than ten episodes. Sure, I can skip this one when the bluray comes out, but I hated waiting a week for something this lame and another week for something potentially good. Still very optimistic about the latter half of the series.
 

milamber182

Member
Dec 15, 2017
7,715
Australia
Should I watch Torchwood? I never did. Also I love Jack.

Season 1 was trying too hard to be bold and target a more adult audience. Season 2 had much better scripts. The Season 3 mini-series was brilliant. Season 4 was an American co-produce that felt like a promising premise stretched out over too many episodes with an unsatisfying conclusion.
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
So...it does seem like I'm in the minority for liking the show then given the gluttony of posts before my last one openly saying how much the writers are hacks and how the show sucks. What's the consensus in general then? Is this just because most here were fans of the last series or is it now considered universally one of the worst seasons of the new era and I'm just crazy for liking it?
 

APZonerunner

Features Editor at VG247.com
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
1,725
England
So...it does seem like I'm in the minority for liking the show then given the gluttony of posts before my last one openly saying how much the writers are hacks and how the show sucks. What's the consensus in general then? Is this just because most here were fans of the last series or is it now considered universally one of the worst seasons of the new era and I'm just crazy for liking it?

For what it's worth, I really wasn't the hugest fan of vast swathes of Moffat's era, but I just think something about the writing here isn't doing it for me. I don't think it sucks, as the component parts are very good - especially the cast - I just wish it were... more?
 

Xagarath

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,140
North-East England
I think part of the issue might be we've had a series of reasonable-to-good episodes but nothing standout yet. This year still needs the equivalent of a Dalek, Father's Day or Empty Child (looking at 2005) - but I'm hopeful we'll get it from at least one of the next four episodes, all of whom are guest writers.

Most of the strongest episodes of new Who, at least for me, have been guest- rather than showrunner-written.
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
I think part of the issue might be we've had a series of reasonable-to-good episodes but nothing standout yet. This year still needs the equivalent of a Dalek, Father's Day or Empty Child (looking at 2005) - but I'm hopeful we'll get it from at least one of the next four episodes, all of whom are guest writers.

Most of the strongest episodes of new Who, at least for me, have been guest- rather than showrunner-written.

I mean....then Dalek didn't come until episode 6.
 

DECK’ARD

Creator of Worms
Verified
Nov 26, 2017
4,740
UK
I think one of the big problems so far has been a lack of imagination. So far we've had a Poundland Predator, an episode of Quantum Leap, and Alien with a Disney critter. Rosa was done well, but the rest of the stories have been weak, with nothing much to capture the imagination. So rather than get drawn into the adventure the episodes just drag. Stuffed full of exposition.

This series just doesn't feel right to me, and Graham is outshining the Doctor who 5 episodes in still appears to not have a clue what she is doing. It's ... odd.
 
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Joqu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,030
The Waffle Kingdom
Unfortunately I genuinely believe this is shaping up to be the worst modern series of Doctor Who yet, yes. People say this is how Who has always been, that new eras grow on you, but we're now halfway through the series, and as far as I'm concerned Chris Chibnall's writing has continued to be incredibly by the numbers. I also expected noticeable improvements, like all-around tighter scripts, due to the reduced episode count, but things feel sloppier if anything. At least give me my quantity back.

Rosa was good stuff though, so yeah, I'm putting my hopes on the next batch of episodes by guest writers. It's just a shame that we're barely getting any.

Anyway, I'm a massive fan of Doctor Who, both classic and modern, so I'll sure as hell keep watching this, and there are still plenty of elements I really like. But it saddens me that the start of this exciting new era now has me going in with low expectations whenever I see an episode is penned by the showrunner. Unlike some I've always been a massive fan of both RTD's and Moffat's writing, for at least always giving us incredibly imaginative and tightly paced scripts. So I just can't believe I'm feeling this way about the start of a new era, I should find this to be another exciting breath of fresh air.
 

NameUser

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,980
This was another dumb "hallway" episode. I don't know how to term it, but I hate these kind of episodes.
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
So...anywhere else where the consensus is more positive then? Because this is just depressing to be excited for me but when I go in it's nothing but negative and negative posts hating the things I like. I actually really liked this episode too. Doctor Who reddit is even more negative and it seems more and more like the consensus is that the very things I like, (no dumb metaplot where the doctor is the sole savior of the universe, no over-worship of the doctor, expanded uses of the companions that don't revolve around the doctor) are the very things used as proof that the show's writing is terrible.

Like, I LIKED the very things discussed here as proof it's terrible. And I haven't even given my thoughts on the episode because I'm now afraid that people will look down on me because the very things I like about it are the very things people hate about it.
 

Blader

Member
Oct 27, 2017
26,606
People say this is how Who has always been, that new eras grow on you, but we're now halfway through the series, and as far as I'm concerned Chris Chibnall's writing has continued to be incredibly by the numbers.
yeah, usually the line is "it takes a while for every new Doctor to grow on you" (which hasn't usually been the case for me anyway, but point granted) but for me the issue isn't Jodie or the cast at all. They're great! The issue is purely Chibnall's writing. His episodes are very so-so. Which was my biggest worry going into this season, because that was more or less the impression I got from his previous Doctor Who scripts (although I do remember liking 42).

So...anywhere else where the consensus is more positive then? Because this is just depressing to be excited for me but when I go in it's nothing but negative and negative posts hating the things I like. I actually really liked this episode too. Doctor Who reddit is even more negative and it seems more and more like the consensus is that the very things I like, (no dumb metaplot where the doctor is the sole savior of the universe, no over-worship of the doctor, expanded uses of the companions that don't revolve around the doctor) are the very things used as proof that the show's writing is terrible.

Like, I LIKED the very things discussed here as proof it's terrible. And I haven't even given my thoughts on the episode because I'm now afraid that people will look down on me because the very things I like about it are the very things people hate about it.

eh, that's just the nature of the beast with this show! I was a big fan of Moffat's Doctor Who and many of the things I enjoyed about his writing were things that drove other people crazy (which is not to say Moffat couldn't get too Moffat-y sometimes for my tastes too). Likewise, I liked but didn't love RTD's run on the show and some of the things that frustrated me about his writing were things that other enjoyed about it - or in spite of it. I've been watching this show for nearly 10 years and if there's one constant I've found, it's that the more Doctor Who fan-centric communities are generally pretty harsh on whomever the showrunner happens to be at the time, with some exceptions here and there.

That said -- are people really criticizing these episodes for not making the Doctor the sole savior of the universe and giving big speeches that inspire worshipful devotion from everyone? I feel like there's a middle ground between that and what's going on in these episodes that Chibnall is not hitting. Stuff like the Doctor just giving up and resigning to death in ep 2 after the TARDIS flickers out, or her non-solution to the spiders in ep 4, don't feel like a repudiation of Moffat's grandstanding Doctor tendencies, they just feel...off. To me anyway.
 
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Joqu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,030
The Waffle Kingdom
yeah, usually the line is "it takes a while for every new Doctor to grow on you" (which hasn't usually been the case for me anyway, but point granted) but for me the issue isn't Jodie or the cast at all. They're great! The issue is purely Chibnall's writing. His episodes are very so-so. Which was my biggest worry going into this season, because that was more or less the impression I got from his previous Doctor Who scripts (although I do remember liking 42).

Unfortunately even this Doctor hasn't grown on me, but I'm convinced it's the writing and not Jodie. She's just had some really weird moments that don't sit right with me, like the aforementioned TARDIS reactions. But that's a rather scary thing for me to feel, I absolutely adored 9, 10, 11 and 12 at this point.

And yeah, admittedly I had my worries about Chibnall from the announcement, his Who and Torchwood work nes never stood out to me. But I still went in with an open mind, hopeful that he had been chosen for reasons that weren't immediately apparent to me, and not just say Broadchurch hype. And hell, I still think he might be a really effective showrunner. He's not a "let's have him write half of the episodes" kind of writer though, and I'm surprised that's even what he went with considering this has never been his reputation. His scripts definitely don't feel like he has had this backlog of Who ideas he just can't wait to show the world. Let's just let Jamie Mathieson write one instead of your spider idea, dude.
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
yeah, usually the line is "it takes a while for every new Doctor to grow on you" (which hasn't usually been the case for me anyway, but point granted) but for me the issue isn't Jodie or the cast at all. They're great! The issue is purely Chibnall's writing. His episodes are very so-so. Which was my biggest worry going into this season, because that was more or less the impression I got from his previous Doctor Who scripts (although I do remember liking 42).



eh, that's just the nature of the beast with this show! I was a big fan of Moffat's Doctor Who and many of the things I enjoyed about his writing were things that drove other people crazy (which is not to say Moffat couldn't get too Moffat-y sometimes for my tastes too). Likewise, I liked but didn't love RTD's run on the show and some of the things that frustrated me about his writing were things that other enjoyed about it - or in spite of it. I've been watching this show for nearly 10 years and if there's one constant I've found, it's that the more Doctor Who fan-centric communities are generally pretty harsh on whomever the showrunner happens to be at the time, with some exceptions here and there.

That said -- are people really criticizing these episodes for not making the Doctor the sole savior of the universe and giving big speeches that inspire worshipful devotion from everyone? I feel like there's a middle ground between that and what's going on in these episodes that Chibnall is not hitting. Stuff like the Doctor just giving up and resigning to death in ep 2 after the TARDIS flickers out, or her non-solution to the spiders in ep 4, don't feel like a repudiation of Moffat's grandstanding Doctor tendencies, they just feel...off. To me anyway.

Doctor Who reddit has a bunch of people angry that the Doctor isn't a superhero anymore so it's more there than here but yeah, there are.
 

Xagarath

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,140
North-East England
I had similar problems with Mummy as to the rest of Capaldi's first series - high-concept pitch backed by paper-thin plotting and a lot of manic energy to try and cover the cracks. I'm much happier with the more low-key approach we're seeing this year, even if it's a bit less ambitious.

Flatline was a standout, I'd agree.
 
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Blader

Member
Oct 27, 2017
26,606
I seriously can't believe even Mathieson isn't back this series. His writing feels like it would've been a great fit for the new direction too.
I actually thought Mathieson said he wasn't available to write for S11, but apparently he pitched a few episodes to Chibnall... and he turned him down!

I understand Chibnall wanting to pick his team, but it is a shame not to have writers like Mathieson and Sarah Dollard come back. Or a director like Rachel Talalay.
 

DECK’ARD

Creator of Worms
Verified
Nov 26, 2017
4,740
UK
I actually thought Mathieson said he wasn't available to write for S11, but apparently he pitched a few episodes to Chibnall... and he turned him down!

I understand Chibnall wanting to pick his team, but it is a shame not to have writers like Mathieson and Sarah Dollard come back. Or a director like Rachel Talalay.

Was Sarah Dollard the writer of Face The Raven?
 

Joqu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,030
The Waffle Kingdom
I actually thought Mathieson said he wasn't available to write for S11, but apparently he pitched a few episodes to Chibnall... and he turned him down!

I understand Chibnall wanting to pick his team, but it is a shame not to have writers like Mathieson and Sarah Dollard come back. Or a director like Rachel Talalay.

Apparently Rachel Talalay did get invited back so that's something.

I read about that Mathieson bit too though, yeah. Super disappointing stuff in my opinion. Agreed on Sarah Dollard too, I don't know whether they asked her though.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,548
I actually thought Mathieson said he wasn't available to write for S11, but apparently he pitched a few episodes to Chibnall... and he turned him down!

I understand Chibnall wanting to pick his team, but it is a shame not to have writers like Mathieson and Sarah Dollard come back. Or a director like Rachel Talalay.

I am rapidly losing faith in Chibnall's showrunning skills. As far as I've seen so far, the show has largely been buoyed by Jodie's insane charisma (and the Rosa episode, admittedly), which is...not a great sign.
 

Halbrand

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,615
Unfortunately I genuinely believe this is shaping up to be the worst modern series of Doctor Who yet, yes. People say this is how Who has always been, that new eras grow on you, but we're now halfway through the series, and as far as I'm concerned Chris Chibnall's writing has continued to be incredibly by the numbers. I also expected noticeable improvements, like all-around tighter scripts, due to the reduced episode count, but things feel sloppier if anything. At least give me my quantity back.

Rosa was good stuff though, so yeah, I'm putting my hopes on the next batch of episodes by guest writers. It's just a shame that we're barely getting any.

Anyway, I'm a massive fan of Doctor Who, both classic and modern, so I'll sure as hell keep watching this, and there are still plenty of elements I really like. But it saddens me that the start of this exciting new era now has me going in with low expectations whenever I see an episode is penned by the showrunner. Unlike some I've always been a massive fan of both RTD's and Moffat's writing, for at least always giving us incredibly imaginative and tightly paced scripts. So I just can't believe I'm feeling this way about the start of a new era, I should find this to be another exciting breath of fresh air.
I agree, it's by far the worst so far, with Series 5 and 9 being the best IMO. The trailers looked boring and the episodes have been just as dull. And RTD's episodes could be a little too silly at times but I'm gaining a new appreciation for them.

Mummy & Flatline wipe the floor with anything we've seen so far this series.
Most of Series 8 wipes the floor with it. Deep Breath, Into the Dalek, Listen.
 

Zac Dynamite

Member
Oct 27, 2017
309
So...anywhere else where the consensus is more positive then? Because this is just depressing to be excited for me but when I go in it's nothing but negative and negative posts hating the things I like. I actually really liked this episode too. Doctor Who reddit is even more negative and it seems more and more like the consensus is that the very things I like, (no dumb metaplot where the doctor is the sole savior of the universe, no over-worship of the doctor, expanded uses of the companions that don't revolve around the doctor) are the very things used as proof that the show's writing is terrible.

Like, I LIKED the very things discussed here as proof it's terrible. And I haven't even given my thoughts on the episode because I'm now afraid that people will look down on me because the very things I like about it are the very things people hate about it.

I am right there with you in digging this new season. My kids and I started to binge the new series right around the end of Matt Smith's run. We have loved every Doctor (some more than others) and season, and I can tell you that we are all more invested now in the show than probably ever. With 4 teenagers with extremely varied interests, it says a lot that this is the only show that is appointment television in our house.
 

elLOaSTy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,844
I am right there with you in digging this new season. My kids and I started to binge the new series right around the end of Matt Smith's run. We have loved every Doctor (some more than others) and season, and I can tell you that we are all more invested now in the show than probably ever. With 4 teenagers with extremely varied interests, it says a lot that this is the only show that is appointment television in our house.

I'm loving the new series, I think Jodie is killing it. I'm also really enjoying the 3 companions, each has a lot to offer. I'm also shipping Yaz and the Doctor.
 

WhovianGamer

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
2,033
Very annoyed if Mathieson was turned down. His episodes felt like Moffat's version of RTD's 'Moffat'. You know, the guy whose episodes are based on something interesting, full of great dialogue and written by a genuine fan.

I got the sense with Moffat that he had some genuine idea of where he wanted the series to go and had written fanfic for years. He felt like he was bursting to get his ideas out there.

Doesn't feel like that with Chibnall.
 
OP
OP
Dwebble

Dwebble

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,623
I definitely get the feeling that people who didn't like Doctor Who to begin with are enjoying this iteration of the show an awful lot more than the core fanbase are.

For me, Chibnall's the exact, polar opposite of Moffat- he's a substantially better showrunner than he is a writer in his own right. I think everything about the series thus far that isn't the nuts and bolts of the writing is superb- the cast and crew have been well-chosen, the core premises of the episodes are eye-catching, the promotional strategy is razor sharp, and it's catching people's attention in a way that couldn't possibly be expected. Yeah, I think Chibnall's dialogue is dreary and his grasp of structure is extremely shaky, but I take my hat off to his showrunning instincts.

I said it before the series started- my main hope for the series as a whole was that Chibnall would be able to get out of his own way, in that he's assembled a very exciting show where the only weak link is his own writing. Now's the test of that- the bulk of his episodes are out of the way, so let's see how the Doctor Who machine that he's built runs without him at the controls. I'm very hopeful- Rosa was the undisputed highlight so far, and the synopses for the other writers' episodes all seem far more interesting than Chibnall's own. We'll see how it goes!
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
Very annoyed if Mathieson was turned down. His episodes felt like Moffat's version of RTD's 'Moffat'. You know, the guy whose episodes are based on something interesting, full of great dialogue and written by a genuine fan.

I got the sense with Moffat that he had some genuine idea of where he wanted the series to go and had written fanfic for years. He felt like he was bursting to get his ideas out there.

Doesn't feel like that with Chibnall.

But it was that very thing that made it insufferable to watch. Like I was watching a teenage fanfic come to life with the negative associated with it to the point where I was watching the Doctor turn into a Mary Sue superhero that was the sole most important being in the universe.
 

Halbrand

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,615
Very annoyed if Mathieson was turned down. His episodes felt like Moffat's version of RTD's 'Moffat'. You know, the guy whose episodes are based on something interesting, full of great dialogue and written by a genuine fan.

I got the sense with Moffat that he had some genuine idea of where he wanted the series to go and had written fanfic for years. He felt like he was bursting to get his ideas out there.

Doesn't feel like that with Chibnall.
Heaven Sent was a fanfic Moffat had written many years earlier IIRC.

And it was great having both Moffat and Capaldi as massive fans of Who.
 
OP
OP
Dwebble

Dwebble

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,623
Say what you want about Chibnall, but he's a massive Doctor Who fan. He was appearing on TV talking about it over thirty years ago!
 

Joqu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,030
The Waffle Kingdom
Chibs is a massive Who fan too, I don't think that's something to be questioned. :p

But it was that very thing that made it insufferable to watch. Like I was watching a teenage fanfic come to life with the negative associated with it to the point where I was watching the Doctor turn into a Mary Sue superhero that was the sole most important being in the universe.

I disagree with your assessment of them but that's besides the point and a matter of taste anyway, but none of those elements were new to the Moffat era for what that's worth. I don't think that's what people mean when they talk about his fanfic anyway tho.
 

WhovianGamer

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
2,033
But it was that very thing that made it insufferable to watch. Like I was watching a teenage fanfic come to life with the negative associated with it to the point where I was watching the Doctor turn into a Mary Sue superhero that was the sole most important being in the universe.

At times the woods were lost for the trees, definitely. But I'd rather give someone the benefit of the doubt for busting a gut rather than what feels a lethargy towards the series. For all Moffat's faults, he was an excellent writer. He had faults, often glaring faults, but they were somewhat mitigated by turns of brilliance.

It's surprising that given Chibnall is a massive fan (part of the Liverpool Doctor Who Appreciation Society, I believe) that he doesn't appear to have a clear direction. Everything he has written for Who, in my opinion, is middling to poor. The same can't be said for Moffat.

I whinged a lot about Moffatt, but I'm more worried about Chibs.
 

Halbrand

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,615
I just wanna day I only just caught the 20s cover of Don't Stop Me Now in Mummy on the Orient Express and it's fantastic.

 

Ignatz Mouse

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,741
So...anywhere else where the consensus is more positive then? Because this is just depressing to be excited for me but when I go in it's nothing but negative and negative posts hating the things I like. I actually really liked this episode too. Doctor Who reddit is even more negative and it seems more and more like the consensus is that the very things I like, (no dumb metaplot where the doctor is the sole savior of the universe, no over-worship of the doctor, expanded uses of the companions that don't revolve around the doctor) are the very things used as proof that the show's writing is terrible.

Like, I LIKED the very things discussed here as proof it's terrible. And I haven't even given my thoughts on the episode because I'm now afraid that people will look down on me because the very things I like about it are the very things people hate about it.

I haven't been excited, but new Doctors always take a while to find their feet. I like the drama aspect, I love the characters, and I think the writing is going to improve when Chibnall isn't trying to do it all himself (no surprise that the best ep is the one mostly written by somebody else).
 

Orion

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
6,768
My only problem with the episode was that Astos was too pretty to die like that. ;_;
 

LL_Decitrig

User-Requested Ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
10,334
Sunderland
I haven't been excited, but new Doctors always take a while to find their feet. I like the drama aspect, I love the characters, and I think the writing is going to improve when Chibnall isn't trying to do it all himself (no surprise that the best ep is the one mostly written by somebody else).

I was very impressed by Rosa, but if next week they manage to pull off a story set during the Partition of India I will be prepared to say the spirit of Sydney Newman lives once more.

The storytelling in episode 5 was rather beautiful. The interplay between the Ciceros was very moving, as was the Yoss delivery.

Some people have complained that the episode lacked suspense. I don't see how this is possible.
 

Ignatz Mouse

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,741
Yeah, I thought the suspense and drama were all spot-on. I even loved the guy-giving-birth humor stuff. Graham acting like he had it all under control and then admitting he looked away at the squeamish bits on TV was great.

By reckoning, there has been one great episode, two solid episodes, and two clunkers. And even the clunkers were OK, not like the worst of other seasons. Just a bit off.

That's really a good batting average. There just hasn't been a wow episode (or even moment) quite yet.
 

LL_Decitrig

User-Requested Ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
10,334
Sunderland
Yeah, I thought the suspense and drama were all spot-on. I even loved the guy-giving-birth humor stuff. Graham acting like he had it all under control and then admitting he looked away at the squeamish bits on TV was great.

By reckoning, there has been one great episode, two solid episodes, and two clunkers. And even the clunkers were OK, not like the worst of other seasons. Just a bit off.

That's really a good batting average. There just hasn't been a wow episode (or even moment) quite yet.

Here's the thing. A long time ago I watched a new SF sitcom set on a giant space freighter. It was crap, but looked promising. After watching a few episodes I ignored it for a while. Then one day I happened to be watching my TV and this show comes on. This new Series 3 episode was utterly brilliant. Clearly my initial hunch had been correct. It had only taken Red Dwarf three series to become a good SF comedy. I devoured the programme from that point.

Then I went back and watched the first two series. It was just as brilliant as the later series. Those sneaky time travelling Red Dwarf people must have gone back and fixed it.
 

EvilRedEye

Member
Oct 29, 2017
747
People who liked Brett Goldstein's doctor might like to check out the film Adult Life Skills where he stars as Jodie Whittaker's romantic interest. The level crossing scenes were filmed in my hometown!!!
 

APZonerunner

Features Editor at VG247.com
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
1,725
England
I think the main thing with Chibnall's writing so far for me is...
  1. Dialogue lacks the snap and pace of RTD and Moffat, which makes episodes move at a far slower space. This, in turn, combines with the extra 5 minutes an episode to make episodes feel more draggy. Lots of unnecessary dialogue beats that could be cut.
  2. Lack of clear, strong antagonists. This is fine sometimes, but it's been the case for 4/5 episodes this series - weak antagonists with weaker motivations. I've always understood Chibnall has disliked the traditional monster-of-the-week stuff, but I feel the show sort of needs it? Kids love that shit. Has there really been anything this series that kids would run around the playground and copy? There's a reason the Cybermen shouting Delete and the Daleks Exterminate is effective, a reason why "Are you my Mummy" stuck, a reason why after watching Voyage of the Damned a kid relative of mine ran around the house adding "Information:" to the start of everything he said, copying the angel robots.
I don't think any of the episodes have been bad, but it's just been sort of... bland? It's really weird, as the component parts are really great. The budget bump, the new look of the show, the editing, the way it handles suspense... it almost feels like the show somehow is less than the sum of its parts right now. It's one of those weird things where I think even an average RTD episode like, I dunno, Partners in Crime, has more of that 'x-factor' to it than Chibnall's efforts so far, even though when you break it out on paper it's blatantly inferior. It's weird. Teething, though. I'm sure they'll get there.
 

Halbrand

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,615
I don't think any of the episodes have been bad, but it's just been sort of... bland? It's really weird, as the component parts are really great. The budget bump
Is this actually a thing? People have been mentioning this but it seems to be much lower budget to me than something like Series 8. Is it the filming locations?