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Why Should I Support The Troops If I Don’t Support The War?

Vonnegut

Vonnegut

Banned
May 27, 2018
1,082
If I don't support the war in Afghanistan and the war in Iraq, why should I revere people who signed up to go fight there?

I don't think they fought to protect my freedoms, even if they think they did.

I don't think their efforts in those countries helped those countries. Hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis were killed as a result of the war, as well as hundreds of thousands of innocent Afghans.

Are the troops brave and courageous? Sure, but I don't care because I don't believe in the cause.

I support rehab for veterans, as well as a better-funded Veterans Administration. But I don't think the troops have done anything more than act as pawns for opportunistic entities and people who pushed for war to make money (e.g. energy exploration companies like Halliburton).

And people have the audacity to say that the troops served our country. No they didn't.

They signed up because they more than likely grew up in a small, rural town and needed a way out, and the military provided them with the financial incentive to join.

I think we let the troops off the hook. We focus too much on their bravery and not enough on their decision, as people, to join up for to fight in these pointless conflicts.
 
Osan912

Osan912

Avenger
Sep 22, 2018
507
Good luck friend trying to convince people. I agree with you 100 percent but you'll be labeled unpatriotic and a modern day Hanoi Jane
 

Deleted member 1086

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,796
Boise Area, Idaho
I was a troop(sailor) and I didn't even respect the war(s). Though I never went to Iraq or Afghanistan. That is something to keep in mind, not everyone in the military necessarily agrees with the wars. Nor does everyone in the military want to be treated like a "hero", in my experience most don't want to be treated this way.

Honestly a pretty significant number of fellow military members I met when I was in I didn't respect, sure as hell don't expect civilians to respect them.
 
KillLaCam

KillLaCam

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,388
Seoul
I think supporting the troops is just saying good things about them or something. Super easy not to do
 
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SmarmySmurf

SmarmySmurf

Banned
Nov 5, 2017
1,931
I think, based on nothing but my assumptions, that a lot of people who oppose war but "support" vets are being political and don't really support them. Same with some people and cops too. Not everyone, just some people. Maybe I'm wrong. Personally I'm upfront about it: I have zero support for anyone in the military and very, very little support for anyone in law enforcement. I assume corruption and bad motivation by default when it comes to them until proven otherwise.

Firefighters and USACE (so far as I know of them) are cool though.
 
Masoyama

Masoyama

Attempted to circumvent a ban with an alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,648
User banned (1 week): Misrepresenting a warning as a 1 week ban
I got a 1 week ban for being honest about my opinions of american soldiers. Let us just say that I can make a write a whole dictionary of professions I respect more than military.
 
Abstrusity

Abstrusity

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,656
contrary to what you might thing, the military is not exactly filled with people who believe they're fighting for your freedoms -- at least, not below the surface.

There's a reason the military is stocked primarily with people from red states: they basically don't have a choice.

You can go bust your ass for barely a passable wage and never be able to go to the hospital because the insurance you pay 30% of your paycheck to covers shit all, you barely make ends meet while your body falls apart under you, or you leave to get an education elsewhere -- and good luck, grants won't cover out of state tuition and unless you want to study horse husbandry you're SOL in your own state -- or join the military....who will pay for housing, education, boost your resume so you have a better chance at anything other than the lifetime-long equivalent to slitting your wrists.

Republicans don't support the military like they do because they want eternal war, they support the military and push into eternal war so that their angry, riled up, nothing to lose base doesn't get hungry and desperate enough to start killing off politicians.
 
Ryuelli

Ryuelli

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,209
Vonnegut said:
If I don't support the war in Afghanistan and the war in Iraq, why should I revere people who signed up to go fight there?
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A lot of the people who I know who joined the military didn't necessarily do so because they supported the wars they fought in, they did so because they saw the GI Bill as being the only way they would realistically be able to go to/afford college.
 
BDS

BDS

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,845
The military preys on vulnerable people who feel they don't have other options. Our media also glorifies military life and service, further confusing and brainwashing people into making a choice they aren't prepared for.
 
Dyle

Dyle

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
29,950


A lot of people in the military will say the same thing, that they can't support what is being done but still feel a responsibility to do it.
 
OP
OP
Vonnegut

Vonnegut

Banned
May 27, 2018
1,082
Ryuelli said:
A lot of the people who I know who joined the military didn't necessarily do so because they supported the wars they fought in, they did so because they saw the GI Bill as being the only way they would realistically be able to go to/afford college.
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Exactly. They joined the military for their personal financial reasons. I wish that large swaths of people in our country weren't forced to join just to secure some stable income, but that's not an act of bravery or patriotism. It's an act of desperation.
 
jwhit28

jwhit28

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,052
It's a job and unfortunately the best path to career training and higher education for a lot of people.
 
Xe4

Xe4

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,295
They're still putting their life in danger for the US. I certainly don't support any of the wars we're in but I have nothing but respect for those involved in the bullshit, if for no other reason than it's a shit job.

Most people in the armed forces aren't there because they want to fight. It was just the best option for them at that point in their life.
 
skeezx

skeezx

Member
Oct 27, 2017
20,183
i don't think i've heard the phrase since 2007 or something. back when questioning iraq was dissing the troops because reasons

but yeah it doesn't mean anything
 
Mulberry

Mulberry

Member
Oct 28, 2017
678
Involuntary service in the Vietnam war and the treatment of those veterans when they returned from the war has a lot to do with it. Too many Americans didn't choose to go to war and were treated like shit when they came home. PTSD wasn't understood and many didn't get help for the wounds they carried on the inside. That's where much of the "support the troops " mentally comes from. Now a days, it's mostly jingoism
 
Jmille99

Jmille99

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
2,098
Right there with you OP. Its funny seeing how quick some people use that as a form of authoritative "get out of jail" free card in terms of what things are done or said.

Theres a certain level of respect I will give them, and I feel our government doesnt do enough for them and screws them over considering what they ask of them in some cases, but Im not just going to spill blind praise just because they served in some fashion.
 
m0therzer0

m0therzer0

Mobile Gaming Product Manager
Verified
Nov 19, 2017
1,495
San Francisco bay area
I think it's main reactionary to when anti war demonstrators supposedly ostracized and treated the soldiers returning from Vietnam like trash, even though so, so many soldiers were just kids out of high school who got drafted and shipped half around the world to most likely die in a war they knew nothing about.
 
Hecht

Hecht

Blue light comes around
Administrator
Oct 24, 2017
9,735
I think there's a difference between "support" and "reverence."

The latter assumes that the subject(s) can do no wrong. But just like in the non-military world, there are plenty of idiots out there.

The former is basically just looking at them as people. Yes the "military," at-large, as in, the arm of the government concerned with war (and other things like humanitarian efforts, but primarily war), can be used for awful purposes as well as decent ones. But we don't really live in a world that would ever allow a country to not be prepared for some sort of skirmish, defensive or otherwise. I wish that weren't the case, but it's unfortunately necessary to have something. Like I said above, that doesn't mean they are automatically some majestic force for good that can do no wrong - there are decisions coming from the top that ultimately shape what major operations are happening at any given time and they may be just poorly-thought-out, or worse, horrific (see: OIF/OEF). But the individual members of the military are still people that cover a broad range of every sort of background and beliefs/politics (sure, it may slant one way, but that doesn't mean the others don't exist).

Basically, I don't begrudge anyone for not supporting what the military, at-large, does. I don't think individual members of said military, for the most part, are really deserving of that same ire. Sure, assholes exist, but most of them are doing a job - for many it's their only option. Others, it was a preferred option.
 
Daitokuji

Daitokuji

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,602
I think it was during the Vietnam War that a lot of people who didn't support the war also would attack the troops personally. There was a huge backlash to attacking the troops, since you are basically attacking the messenger in that case and it's the politicians and generals who direct the war. So ever since then you can criticize the policy and criticize the generals but attacking the troops has been seen as taboo.
 
Limit

Limit

Avenger
Oct 30, 2017
362
I don't know what you are even arguing about. If you don't support any wars then help elect politicians who don't send troops to any wars. People don't join military just so they get sent away for months and years from their loved ones and into hostile territories. The ones who come back from deployment don't have any fun stories akin to backpacking in Europe. Not sending military to pointless conflicts by helping elect the right politicians can be your version of supporting the troops.

This isn't rocket science people. Think.
 

noquarter

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,483
Pretty sure supporting the troops came about because of the Vietnam war. When people who were drafted came home, they were treated like shit. Government sent them to a fucked up war, ditched them when they got back and society blamed the troops and shat on them as well.

Speaking to people that served in Vietnam at the VA is really depressing. Lots of untreated problems they had to fight to even be recognized as issues. Getting back and having people yelling at you and calling you baby killer, or other bullshit.

Supporting the troops has gone too far, i feel, as someone who is currently serving. But I would rather people show appreciation than what Soldiers and Sailors dealt with in the past.

Vonnegut said:
Exactly. They joined the military for their personal financial reasons. I wish that large swaths of people in our country weren't forced to join just to secure some stable income, but that's not an act of bravery or patriotism. It's an act of desperation.
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It is a little bit of both. A lot of people understand that they might not necessarily agree with all the policies, but still feel they are doing something worthwhile. It is messed up that a lot of young people feel the best way to have a chance at going to college without massive debt is putting their life on the line for something that they might not fully understand.

However, there are positives that the military also does. The Navy has two hospital ships that it sends out after major crises to help local areas. Army Corp of Engineers go out and attempt to do quick reconstruction when they are able to. Would be nice if there was more humanitarian work that would be authorized without going in and doing the destruction first, but it does happen.
 
DrForester

DrForester

Mod of the Year 2006
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,710
There are many reasons people will join the military. Many do for financial reasons.

I don't know where I heard this phrase, but it always stuck with me.

Hate the Man, not the men.
 
Hecht

Hecht

Blue light comes around
Administrator
Oct 24, 2017
9,735
DrForester said:
There are many reasons people will join the military. Many do for financial reasons.

I don't know where I heard this phrase, but it always stuck with me.

Hate the Man, not the men.
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Hell, I did it because I knew it was a guaranteed job after college, and I knew by the time I got out I'd have like 4-8 years of experience for a different, hopefully better job in the "real world."
 
Josh5890

Josh5890

I'm Your Favorite Poster's Favorite Poster
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
23,244
Xe4 said:
They're still putting their life in danger for the US. I certainly don't support any of the wars we're in but I have nothing but respect for those involved in the bullshit, if for no other reason than it's a shit job.

Most people in the armed forces aren't there because they want to fight. It was just the best option for them at that point in their life.
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This is pretty much my stance
 
Shatty McKracken

Shatty McKracken

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,954
I fully support their decision to volunteer in going.

Because if they didn't volunteer, the United States governement has proven that it has no problem instituting a draft and force people to join. They've done it several times in the past.

So I think I can support them and thank them for their service. Because I sure as fuck am not joining and don't feel like relocating to another country if they tried to force me to.
 

Deleted member 24149

Oct 29, 2017
2,150
Vonnegut said:
I think we let the troops off the hook. We focus too much on their bravery and not enough on their decision, as people, to join up for to fight in these pointless conflicts.
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As someone who served in the Navy this line bugs the fuck out of me. In my field (Navy Nuclear) if you were to sample why people enlisted the majority would end up the fact that there was few opportunities and college costs are/were a bitch. (I enlisted in Oct 2009 for reference).

You shouldn't shit on someone just for serving because there are plenty of reasons why they did. I did it because I barely crawled out of high school and didn't want to subject myself to 4 years of school after barely graduating high school and working 25 cents above minimum wage at a grocery store after 2 years wasn't doing me any good. Getting told signing on I'd get a $21k bonus and instant E-4 and later $75k and E-5 promotion for STAR re-enlisting it should be obvious why I enlisted. Later on my service ended up being the biggest reason why I have the job I do right now.

Economics aside should you support the troops? As a collective yes. You should support higher wages, better access to medicine and rehabilitation, and benefits for them.

Should you support a veteran for public office on the fact that they served? Hell no.

Should you tolerate a veteran even if they have shitty beliefs? Hell no.

Should you elevate a veteran above a regular civilian because they served? Hell no.
 
Brakke

Brakke

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,798
Limit said:
People don't join military just so they get sent away for months and years from their loved ones and into hostile territories. The ones who come back from deployment don't have any fun stories akin to backpacking in Europe.
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This is straight false tho. I know several troops who signed up for the adventure.
 

Deleted member 6582

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,789
You can support the troops on the level that they go through hardships like mental stress and disability as a result of basically brainwashing and conditioning. Never support the military as an entity, it's literally the most evil of political necessities, a murderforce to subdue others.
 
Nacho

Nacho

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,121
NYC
Idk, even if I dont support a specific war (which most, I don't), i still respect and admire people who put their lives on the line for us. When/if something happens that does, in your eyes, require their expertise and passion for their country, they're going to be the ones saving your ass.
 
Masterz1337

Masterz1337

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,813
Because the troops (in theory) sign up to serve the nation. Just because they get ordered into wars you don't agree with doesn't mean they aren't putting their lives on the line for the reasons they are at war. Supporting troops is different than supporting the cause. Don't like the cause, that's a political matter, not a personal matter.

If someone is signing up because they want to shoot Muslims, or they revel in the violence.. That's a different issue. But plenty of people sign up with the expectation their lives will be put at risk for good causes.

Support the troops isn't a blanket statement of "support them no matter what", it means support them because they are putting their lives on the line for their country. Unless they do something NOT to deserve your respect, you should respect them for the time they spent away from their families and whatever injuries and losses they have sustained while in service.

It's also important in the past soldiers went to war out of necessity (WW2) or were drafted (Vietnam) and I think you'd be in a hard place to explain why they shouldn't deserve respect in those circumstances. Today it's a bit more grey in how and why people sign up... but it's their signing up that has contributed to stopping drafts from being a thing.
 
Pretendo Switch

Pretendo Switch

Banned
Nov 8, 2017
957
Hecht said:
Hell, I did it because I knew it was a guaranteed job after college, and I knew by the time I got out I'd have like 4-8 years of experience for a different, hopefully better job in the "real world."
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Same here. I've never supported a war in my life. But when I was 23, broke and aimless in college, I knew I was gonna need to get some skills from somewhere. Enlisting for 4 years was easily the best decision I've made in my life.

Politics aside, I support those who sacrifice their freedom to "defend" the country. There are many good people out there doing many great things. And the shitty part is most people will never know about it...
 
Frozenprince

Frozenprince

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,158
OP nobody sensible thinks supporting the troops means blind jingoism. It means you simply don't treat them as inhuman monsters for their service, and that if possible you should help with the services available to them after their commitment ends, whether that's the VA or other such programs to assist them transitioning back into civilian life.
 
Thordinson

Thordinson

Banned
Aug 1, 2018
18,127
I agree with many people here that you can support them as people and not support the cause.

I'm a pacifist. I don't agree with any violence and dislike militaries. That doesn't mean I don't want people who are in the military to be treated poorly. Nor do I want them to be treated worse when they get out. Most of the time people say "I support the troops!" it's lip service at best. They really don't care about the people coming back plagued with PTSD or any of the countless number of physical injuries/disabilities. It's sad.

I want what's best for people. Even those whose choices I disagree with. They should be taken better care of.
 
OP
OP
Vonnegut

Vonnegut

Banned
May 27, 2018
1,082
Fiye said:
As someone who served in the Navy this line bugs the fuck out of me. In my field (Navy Nuclear) if you were to sample why people enlisted the majority would end up the fact that there was few opportunities and college costs are/were a bitch. (I enlisted in Oct 2009 for reference).

You shouldn't shit on someone just for serving because there are plenty of reasons why they did. I did it because I barely crawled out of high school and didn't want to subject myself to 4 years of school after barely graduating high school and working 25 cents above minimum wage at a grocery store after 2 years wasn't doing me any good. Getting told signing on I'd get a $21k bonus and instant E-4 and later $75k and E-5 promotion for STAR re-enlisting it should be obvious why I enlisted. Later on my service ended up being the biggest reason why I have the job I do right now.

Economics aside should you support the troops? As a collective yes. You should support higher wages, better access to medicine and rehabilitation, and benefits for them.

Should you support a veteran for public office on the fact that they served? Hell no.

Should you tolerate a veteran even if they have shitty beliefs? Hell no.

Should you elevate a veteran above a regular civilian because they served? Hell no.
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You're agreeing with me but what I said bugs you?
 

Deleted member 24149

Oct 29, 2017
2,150
Vonnegut said:
You're agreeing with me but what I said bugs you?
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I quoted a specific line because I interpreted your post wrongly. We're on the same page.

For some reason the line I quoted read to me as you thought people just enlisted for the bravery of it.
 

Deleted member 1086

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,796
Boise Area, Idaho
Replicant said:
It's really not though. Community colleges are a far better option.
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are they? four years in the military where you'll get free school, on top of various allowances like food and housing allowances, versus four years at a community college that, despite being cheaper than a university, you still pay for out of your pocket?

Also the GI bill not only pays for that college, but also housing while enrolled in school.
 
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