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Hey art teachers, stop discouraging student's love for anime and manga art
- Thread starter ElBoxy
- Start date
Because anyone with talent can put up an art gallery where people will flock to you and you'll make millions. Oh wait. There's a reason why the 'starving artist' moniker has been a thing since the beginning of time. Art don't pay the bills unless you're fortunate to get in with animation or something desirable. So people want to draw anime/manga styled stuff. Big whoop? It is an art form and has spawned some of the largest media out there to date including One Piece which has the Guinness World Record for most sold manga of all time in the millions. No need to try and shit on other people's ambitions.
Holy shit this iS terrifyingI had the red one, but it at least was decent compare to other books. It's not hard to understand the teacher's argurment when the anime boom happened, as many people tried to make a quick buck out of it.
13 yo who got published? More accomplished than me, that's for sure.
I'm not doubting that one of the manga is the best selling manga. :P
I'm saying don't go to art school if you're just going to draw that.
Nah, art teachers should.
Whenever I see even the slightest piece of anime in a CV/Portfolio, it goes straight into the trash.
For me it's the equivalent of this:
Whenever I see even the slightest piece of anime in a CV/Portfolio, it goes straight into the trash.
For me it's the equivalent of this:
Can't remember where I got 13 from but the Schoolastic site for the book (or the same series) describes the author as 'Teen author and illustrator Coope'
https://www.scholastic.com/teachers/books/how-to-draw-more-manga-by-katy-coope/
Pretty sure those books are like 10 to 15 years old though.
I don't really know anything about art, but there is a brilliant autobiographical manga called Blank Canvas: My So-Called Artist's Journey/Kakukaku Shikajika which gives a lot insight into this topic.
The author certainly didn't practice her manga drawing skills in art school and seems to think she gained something from grinding away at art she was not all that passionate about. Then again she also kind of presents art school a soul crushing waste of time.
The author certainly didn't practice her manga drawing skills in art school and seems to think she gained something from grinding away at art she was not all that passionate about. Then again she also kind of presents art school a soul crushing waste of time.
Not sure if this is a good example, from what I can recall she thinks she wasted her whole time in college with the exception of working at a second hand manga store. She only truly becomes serious about creating manga once she is finished college and has a regular job.
Something Id like to point out is that you keep calling everybody elses examples and experiences "fringe" while claiming yours are the norm.
You keep saying that the students who dont improve over time (or not as fast) are the ones who stick to anime but in my mind you're missing the point. These are unskilled artists who would have quit a long time ago but only stick around because of how much they love anime. Usually shitty artists quit right away but anime fans are stubborn, man, so stop trying to take away what keeps them motivated and find another way than just being a drill sergeant.
One of the great fallacies of art education is that being a hardass is the best way to teach, that it weeds out the weak and leaves you with the artist who "can take it" Im that kind of artist and used to thiink that way too but then I saw how my wife, who is now a sucessful artist, reacted to that style in college and almost made her quit. Then I saw many artists (mostly female, go figure) in the con circuit who were the same way, people who didnt react well to the hardass style that sets dumb rules like "no anime". That style of teaching had killed their spirit when sll they needed was a more empathetic, solution driven education. Jen Bartel talks a lot about this and really helped my thoughts on this take shape because she had gone through that precise struggle of trying to make her style kore "normal" instead of embracing what she really wanted to do.
Being a hardass only breeds more hardass students who then preach that style and conveniently ignore a myriad of other, potentially great, artists who need, crave a different kind of education.
Thats the reason I went to college (to draw manga). Glad you werent around to give me advice!
If this guy is the norm for art profs then I would have to agree with the people saying art school is a sham - at least as they are now. I don't think it's right that a junior or senior level student draws like a scrub and hasn't been failed yet. I don't think it's right that anime is blamed for said scrubness. It isn't made any better by saying 'this is how it is' imo.
That's fine, but there are 9,999 other kids who could have used that advice.
From the very onset I said that there are exceptions to what the average professors see. You even said yourself that a lot of schools accept mediocre students. I'm saying looking at a few examples of basically going "SEE, THIS ONE PERSON DISPROVES THE AVERAGE PROFESSOR'S EXPERIENCE WITH STUDENTS WHO USUALLY HAVE VERIFIABLE PATTERNS." is shortsighted and misleading. Ofc there's nothing wrong with students aspiring to become another example but broader and more realistic goals are ideal.
It's less about taking it away and more about helping them grow because it's not like a school is gonna send the tough profs at you right away. That's not the only thing to be a hard ass about either when it comes to seniors or upperclassman. For instance, telling them to watch things other than just anime. Or teaching them proper networking and the importance of social interaction and coming out of their shell.
All the introverted art students >>
While I agree to some degree that it's a bit messed up that a lot of successful artists basically had their initial reason to become an artists beaten out of them by harsh professors who taught them about the reality of a lot of things in the industry, that's obviously not a perfect solution but it certainly helps over the alternative of basically saying nothing or not enough to help an artist grow. There's only so much empathy can do, (first couple years) before you gotta crack down and force that improvement, (last couple years). And ofc there's the way a school wants to present itself and the work that'll "typically" be produced by the students. Ringling's CAD program specifically doesn't highlight a lot if anything that is influenced by anime, and this is the cream of the crop stuff.
In an animation major, (especially computer animation), yes there will be at least one teacher who is a complete hardass about the manga/anime thing. Not every single person who goes to an art university will become a professional who draws god tier art by the end of it. And ofc different schools have different standards for what they accept like it's not as if the students who aren't showing improvements as substantial as others are getting straight As on assignments just for completing them. It's difficult to explain because it's a very different type of environment from "regular" university.
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Snark aside, my point is that whatever your motivation is, its fine. People change their mind often once theyre in the process anyway. If your grander point is that the mass anime fans that go to art college wanting to get a job in anime wont get one and their art will suck ... well buddy, the same thing happens to Pixar and Marvel fans. If you go to art college because you want to draw Spiderman youll have the same challenges and most art graduates dont join the industry regardless of style (especially now that theres so many more art schools out there since they realized its a momey grabbing scheme)
If you get out of college with a passable manga style, theres jobs out there! You can do the con circuit and make money, do creator owned stuff, pitch a book to a growing list of publishers like image, Oni Press and others, join an animation company doing storyboard/board revisions, work on games in a different variety of roles (no character designer gets hired out of school anyways, so style doesnt matter there) etc etc
We keep this narrative of "dont draw anime if you want a job" which is ridiculous. What we need to emphasize is "dont put yourself 50/100k plus in debt if you want a job"
Years ago this was one of the reasons (although minor) that I initially quit art and dropped out of college. Essentially whatever is not marketable in their eyes is seen as a waste. The irony being that often having a niche is what pushes people to view your work. It really depends on what your end goal is and what you want to do. It's important imo to figure that out before you enroll. If you want to work for a western animation company all your life okay fine. But if you know what you wanna do in the long run and your style helps with that then go for it. If it resonates with you that's the only way you'll be truly successful and also mentally at peace. Otherwise you'll burnout. Obviously either way you should be experimenting with different styles, drawing lots of real life studies , learning anatomy etc. But I dislike the idea that the anime style is just flatout bad. It's a broad spectrum. Just as with every style there is going to be hit & misses. While I was in college I wasn't even allowed to draw it even in my personal sketchbook on my free time. I'd have to get a separate one to keep at home. Which to me is insanely counterproductive and overly overbearing. Part of the process should be fun! Otherwise why do something like this?
More often than not I found art teachers to be a mess anyways. Not talking about style specifically, but just in terms of their teaching methods. A lot of creative types seem to forget how different your mind works when you're just starting out versus thousands of hours of practice. I've seen people (including myself) yelled at for lighting objects wrong or using the wrong colors. Because everything supposed to be super obvious to a beginner when you explain it once. It's rather nuts. Maybe it's just my personal experience, but I hated my time there. I'm not spending tens of thousands of dollars for you to be condensing and rude. If I'm paying that much and I'm willing to learn the least you can do is be patient with me. You shouldn't be a teacher if you lack that kind of understanding. I feel most people end up as teachers for the wrong reasons. I did have some amazing teachers once in a while, but overall I decided to continue on my own. Maybe I just had bad luck when I initially went to college because I also hear many people have pleasant experiences. I also hear many people who use the money for college towards a mentor instead and I absolutely love that idea.
More often than not I found art teachers to be a mess anyways. Not talking about style specifically, but just in terms of their teaching methods. A lot of creative types seem to forget how different your mind works when you're just starting out versus thousands of hours of practice. I've seen people (including myself) yelled at for lighting objects wrong or using the wrong colors. Because everything supposed to be super obvious to a beginner when you explain it once. It's rather nuts. Maybe it's just my personal experience, but I hated my time there. I'm not spending tens of thousands of dollars for you to be condensing and rude. If I'm paying that much and I'm willing to learn the least you can do is be patient with me. You shouldn't be a teacher if you lack that kind of understanding. I feel most people end up as teachers for the wrong reasons. I did have some amazing teachers once in a while, but overall I decided to continue on my own. Maybe I just had bad luck when I initially went to college because I also hear many people have pleasant experiences. I also hear many people who use the money for college towards a mentor instead and I absolutely love that idea.
I can't find any justification for keeping a student who demonstrates a fundamental lack of progress in the school beyond the first year, let alone third year. And I can't come to the conclusion that anime is to blame for their lack of progress either. It isn't like being able to draw better than your examples constitutes god tier ability. I would think the standard of art quality among third years is far beyond your examples, and if that's wrong and in fact art schools the world over have that as the average for advanced students then I would have to conclude art education is largely worthless, or at the very least dishonest, since they are willing to pass students who shouldn't so they can continue to take tuition from them.
Gives hope to us all~
It's uncanny, isn't it? One look and I knew I'd seen that smug face somewhere else...
What in god's name does this even mean? How does completing a degree by taking out loans PREVENT you from getting a job?
A degree in art/illustration/computer animation means nothing to an employer and the costs of the programs is nowhere worth the reward in case you do get a job in the industry. For 100k you could graduate from Harvard and ensure yourself a degree that would pay 100k+ a year after graduation.
A Ringling graduate (and their graduation rates are super high cause failing out of that school is nigh impossible) ends up 100k+ in debt, paying $800 a month. Lets say you do get a job in games soon after graduation (which is the minority btw) That job will probably pay around 35k a year (it was 31k for mine), which makes a paycheck of about $1000 every two weeks. Thats basically the average "best case scenario" for those who make it.
However, thats not the image beingf sold to high schoolers. Colleges emphasize "placement rate" and highlight graduates that work for Pixar and ILM, they sell this fantasy in order to sell you on the 4 year program. Ringling is an expert at this, withholding portfolio reviews and other perks until the latter years, dangling that carrot so you commit for another year at 35k cost.
So, how does taking a giant loan prevent you from getting a job? How are you going to build a new portfolio after you graduate if you have to pay $500 a month in debt alone? You will probably give up on your art dreams, stay with your parents and go work at Lowes in hopes you can pay off your debt in 15 years
Well of course an arts school in California will get mad if you attempt to draw anything other than CalArts.
Aren't all those shows at least slightly anime-inspired?
I'm with you pretty much on this. At school I taught, it's not unusual for students to end up with more than $200K of debt. It might be SoCal cost of living or just crazy tuition, but the spirits of graduates are not good after they realize this fact. I often keep in touch with many of my past students and most are bitter about their school experience and the debt they incur. Much like not being able to enjoy watching Football anymore (realities CTE), I didn't enjoy teaching anymore because of this ridiculous life debt the students end up with. Seriously, it's more than most of the country's mortgage.
I think we should bring back apprenticeship in some form for professional artists and designers. The paper degree matters very little in getting a job in the design field anyways. And most of the kids seems to learn much more during internships than standard curriculum. I think art schools should be 2 year programs just to teach the basics for a lot less money, then you go on to learn from the working professionals in some form of internship or apprenticeship. Graduating from Art Center or Otis with $200K in debt and looking for jobs that pay $40~50K for starting position is much more daunting than in my day when you have 70~100K of dept and you had starting pay around $35K back around 1995. It's pretty depressing...
Yeah, this is my exact stance as well. A lot of people are discussing this topic as if this is a professor in a single class doing anything and everything for a portion of students
who need to broaden their horizons.
When in actuality, it's a department head setting the tone for an entire animation track at their school by issuing a blanket ban and going all 'ANIME IS BANNED'
during their presentation to new students.
That sort of tone is absolutely not conducive to a well-rounded teaching curriculum.
It's their job to teach the class multiple different art styles and artists and not let them draw whatever they want because it's an art class they have to teach art from multiple sources. If you're trying to make manga when the lesson is about Picasso don't get upset if you fail because you don't get it. It's also not like you can't draw anywhere so long as you have a piece of paper and pencil. Art teachers also love for you to develop your own style but on the same hand you also shouldn't copy Masashi Kishimoto wholesale without a good reason too.
Sooo.... Teaching multiple different art styles means you need to put a blanket ban on one of the most influential and popular art styles in the world?
I'm not sure where this story of an art teacher trying to curb some specific student's love of anime/manga in order to help them develop their own style is coming from.
Did you mean to post in a different thread?
This thread is about the Computer Animation department head telling CA students that one of those multiple different art styles is not acceptable and they should not
emulate or allow it to influence their work over their 4 year major.
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Am I not allowed to give input on my own experiences taking art classes? Nobody's stopping you from drawing manga but it's not the end all be all.
Also citation needed big time as to whether or not anime is the most popular/influential in the world. You're on a nerd forum, you work for SNK so of course you're gonna say that but anime isn't a blanket artstyle in of itself.
I'm just pointing out that you are talking about a different situation than the one this topic is about.
No one is saying that a teacher shouldn't be able to control the type of content their student's create in their own class.
That's common sense, although I would disagree that 'beating the anime out of them' like some like to go on about would be beneficial in any way.
It is the department head saying that Japanese animation style is not acceptable for their computer animation major.
There is a very big difference between a department head putting a blanket ban on a style that is absolutely 100% relevant to the major on basically every level
and a teacher in a still art art class telling their students to stop drawing naruto fan art.
If your stance is that it's the teacher's responsibility is to teach multiple art styles, why would you approve of a blanket style ban for a 4 year major?
I specifically said 'one of the most popular influential styles'. That is absolutely true and anyone who thinks otherwise is just being silly. Otherwise, why would so many teachers be chiming in about how prevalent anime fans are in their courses?
That's not the case at all here. This is a blanket ban on anime influence. Not just any style, but specifically anime, and this is at all levels of the curriculum and even denounces an elective studying anime in particular for higher level students. I find the reasoning that it's for the students' own good shoddy, as is the argument that it's because anime is popular with art school students. Unless computer animation programs are diehard adherents to realism, it doesn't make sense. Doubly so that only anime gets singled out. Marvel style might be 'closer' to realism but it is still far and away from any life study. So the idea of this acceptable standard of stylized art where the school gets to dictate what is and isn't good art, or tries to push a marketable style, is hogwash, and gives the impression that art schools follow trends rather than set them. So the students are already far behind what the market is going towards and at a disadvantage compared to their competition if they stick to what styles the schools dictate they can draw, from the posts that I've read.
Yeah it's stupid. Also anime isn't an art style so it's double stupid. I just heard this thing millions of times so I just and I didn't quite grasp the OP so I assumed it was just students not paying attention to the material. Sorry :(
Nah you're fine. This topic probably hits home for a lot of people and I do agree with what everyone is saying in general. Too many people do use anime as a crutch. And old fogeys in positions of power tend to be out of touch.
this is true. My cinematograpy professor still uses oriental to describe Asians.
My apologies if I came off too snarky in my first response as well.
Was just a bit surprising and annoying to come back after a weekend ignoring the internet to see that a lot of people are still framing this discussion
as if it is a teacher dealing with a stubborn student in a class about impressionism who refuses to draw anything but naruto fan art.
I just can't believe they have anything except petty and out-dated reasoning behind the ban, especially after seeing stuff like this:
LOL omg I had thisI think its because ten years ago it was still a unknown thing to most art teachers that they didn't know how to grade properly. It doesn't help that these type of books were the norm back then being sold in book fairs.
I want to say that the guy who write that letter is probably lazy and don't have much experience in anime or manga. Instead of
'hey, anime and manga is much more than just dragon ball, Haikyu, Naruto, and stuff like that, try to watch more Koji Yamamura, Masaaki Yuasa, Shingo Natsume, JD Bahi, Studio pablo, Yusuke Murata, Akira Hiramoto, Ayami Kojima, Takehiko Inoue, and many2 more'
He just go, 'no anime or manga, lulz'
'hey, anime and manga is much more than just dragon ball, Haikyu, Naruto, and stuff like that, try to watch more Koji Yamamura, Masaaki Yuasa, Shingo Natsume, JD Bahi, Studio pablo, Yusuke Murata, Akira Hiramoto, Ayami Kojima, Takehiko Inoue, and many2 more'
He just go, 'no anime or manga, lulz'
Lol
Again, I assure you, the variety of styles when it comes to anime is not reflected in the work the students produce.
I feel an aspiring artist or someone who just wants to draw should be inspired by whatever art they want to be inspired by. I encourage people that draw to replicate or draw how they want because it teaches them how that style works. This works because people like to experiment and try different styles over time before they go into their own direction and really make art that is their own. So when I see art teachers, professional artists scoff or downright metaphorically slap the hands of people that like japanese anime and manga styles, I feel like they only associate those styles with very general and limiting perspective or fans of those styles that are too eccentric for their own good; so they find it embarrassing or limiting.
I feel (and I've had) teachers should let students do what they want and see the limitations of those styles and experiment. Trial and error. Teachers should educate and encourage growth to wherever the student leads them to, not outright dismiss what they like and what they replicate at the time.
I feel (and I've had) teachers should let students do what they want and see the limitations of those styles and experiment. Trial and error. Teachers should educate and encourage growth to wherever the student leads them to, not outright dismiss what they like and what they replicate at the time.
I believe that. Even so, the students should at least be given the opportunity.