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db1416

Banned
Sep 23, 2018
186
South Florida
If you aren't Native American, you aren't allowed to claim offensiveness to this. If Native Americans come together and want this changed, fine change it. But if you're just a social justice warrior trying to protect the "poor minorities", then you need to quit it. That attitude is more racist than anything.
 

Xeontech

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,059
There was a relatively short period of time when this happened in the region that is now the US, but the Natives pretty much put a stop to that with the American Indian Wars. The lack of immunity to Western diseases made them poor prospects for enslavement, and the colonists eventually realized they were no match for the indigenous coalitions that had such strong local and territorial advantages.

Of course, it was a terrible thing that happened to the natives, and really even today Native Americans are treated as if they don't even exist, which is a real shame and something that needs to be rectified.
It happened much more than people realize. It wasn't a short time, and it was all over the northern americas. Early settlors with any power regularly took native women and children into slavery regardless of being prone to sickness. Slavery and genocide are the main reasons US eventually entered into reservation agreements with the tribes.
 

db1416

Banned
Sep 23, 2018
186
South Florida
User Banned (1 week): Dismissing concerns of racism
I don't see any sort of racism?

it's a freaking videogame where everyone take punches from everyone, stop seeing conspiracy everywhere
I tend to agree with you. Also the fact that every Native American person I've seen comment on the subject doesn't care. If they don't care why do we feel the need to? Just seems a little off base if you ask me.
 

mikeys_legendary

The Fallen
Sep 26, 2018
3,009
I don't think this was done out of malice, but it's incredibly tone deaf. I'm not particularly upset with Nintendo for this, but I'd probably have different thoughts if they chose not to address it.
 

YellowBara

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,072
I tend to agree with you. Also the fact that every Native American person I've seen comment on the subject doesn't care. If they don't care why do we feel the need to? Just seems a little off base if you ask me.

Then here's a comment for you: It's offensive and should be changed. And yes I am, before you ask.
 

brainchild

Independent Developer
Verified
Nov 25, 2017
9,480
It happened much more than people realize. It wasn't a short time, and it was all over the northern americas. Early settlors with any power regularly took native women and children into slavery regardless of being prone to sickness. Slavery and genocide are the main reasons US eventually entered into reservation agreements with the tribes.

I understand that it is an underreported part of history. Also, I did say 'relatively'; I used the term in the context of the very large time-scale of western colonization.

My whole point was that there was a reason the colonists gave up on enslaving the natives, and most of it had to do with practicality, and there came a point where it was simply more practical for them to use African slaves to fuel their economy (especially when Spain put a stop to the native slave trade in Europe).

Nevertheless, none of the above is intended to take away from the very real atrocities that happened to the natives. Anyone denying that needs to do their research.
 

Buffum

Member
Nov 17, 2017
193
The downplaying of Native American racial stereotypes in this thread is pretty upsetting.

This is totally problematic and I hope it gets patched out as soon as possible. This whole thing no doubt stems from ignorance. I highly doubt a Japanese developer is totally familiar with the plight of America's native people, especially when America itself still uses stereotypes identical to this in its own products and sports teams.
Regardless of motive, this has gotta get outa here. Yikes.

I'm just surprised NOA didn't pick up on this. Not a great PR moment right now.
 

boontobias

Avenger
Apr 14, 2018
9,539
Should be easy to remove. I'd bet money that wouldnt ship if it was removed 15 years ago
 
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Deleted member 38050

User requested account closure
Banned
Jan 10, 2018
706
Oh shit, I remember playing this as a little kid and just thinking they were like, generic "bandit" type characters, I thought they were wearing bandannas and the feather was just that little part where the bandanna is tied up at the back. It honestly never clicked to me that they were meant to be native americans. This is a mind blow for me on the level of SMB clouds and bushes being the same.

Anyway, it'll probably be patched I guess.
 

TimeFire

Avenger
Nov 26, 2017
9,625
Brazil
Since the picture is from the japanese build based on the lower left text, it really does not say anything about any possible work treehouse did during localisation.

It's getting patched. Nintendo has always shown themselves on point for stuff like this. Stuff like the music and shield in ocarina of time were changed due to similarities to religious songs and symbols, why would they not do it now when patching is as easy as ever?

I hope they patch it! It just that I'm not seeing this being bought up in anyplace besides here so I don't know if this will even reach them. I don't have twitter though, so I don't know how are things over there.
 

mariodk18

Member
Dec 27, 2017
1,501
How is everyone so knowledgable on what makes this racist? I saw it and had no reaction. Can someone explain to me what makes it racist?
 

devVega

Member
Oct 28, 2017
55
福島県
I personally do not mind the Game and Watch model, or for that fact any visual representation of Native Americans, however the 'Fire Attack' game does seem a bit much. If the 'Fire Attack' game never existed, then I'll be down for an indigenous Game and Watch model.
 

Nitpicker_Red

Member
Nov 3, 2017
1,282
I guess the thing is that, at least speaking as an European, I don't see how burning down the military fort built on your land by a foreign invader intent on your eradication is being "a savage". The most questionable thing in that whole scene is that you play as (and therefore are implicitly rooting for) the invader (although in Smash it's the opposite: when you use that move you (briefly) play as the Native American).

I wonder if the issue is just that Americans (native or not) see it as depicting native Americans as murderous, while people from other countries see it as an act of self-defense against an invader?
I was wondering that too, but I interpreted it as being about guilt about the genocide. Americans definitely have a different interpretation of the situation. Maybe it's also the "angry face" that's put on the character.
 
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Deleted member 32561

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 11, 2017
3,831
Natives were absolutely enslaved by western conquerors regularly. It's not paraded much in the history books, but it happened.

In the US, Johan Sutter in California was known to have a huge native slave force. There's a special hook he developed they put through nose of natives connected to chains to keep them from running.

There is an Native American Rock Opera called Something Inside Is Broken that went on tour last couple years specifically about native slaves.

I'm part native, and was part of the Rock Opera last year. I also find nothing racist about the cowboys and Indians parody here. If you look at the cowboy, it's exactly the same design. And there's nothing racist I could say about his design either. It's a parody. Taking offense to this is quite simply an overreaction.

Someone might be offended it's about setting a fort on fire, but no more so than shooting ninjas out of trees or beating tattooed white guys to a pulp in the city street.
It's good to have your input on this. As a white guy with unverified 1/16th native ancestry, I may not be the best judge of this. But I don't see it as just two meaningless cartoons fighting.

I thought it was offensive as it lies in the combination of the stereotypical depiction (not just the feather in the band, but also including a stereotypical "chief" as a seeming 'boss' character (click for link)) and being an enemy that makes the initial depiction problematic. That fighting these stereotypical "savages" as the "heroic", conquering Confederate soldier was good, and the goal of the game. To me, I find no way to reconcile this with not being offensive in a modern context- and Nintendo seems to have realized this earlier on, given the change of the natives to bandits in a later reissue. That said, in Smash, you're playing as the character who turns into the Native American sprite, so the game isn't playing as that Confederate soldier as the hero. But, then, he's still basically putting on a Native American costume for an attack to reference an old game that is problematic.

Like, to me, it's about as offensive as someone dressing up as an "Indian Chief" for Halloween. The game could still be referenced without the problematic asset with the bandit change... or just going back to normal G&W with a torch.

Does that make sense at all? Am I at all off base?
 

Kurona

Member
Apr 12, 2018
392
I hope they patch it! It just that I'm not seeing this being bought up in anyplace besides here so I don't know if this will even reach them. I don't have twitter though, so I don't know how are things over there.
I have seen it get a fair amount of discussion on Twitter, though I haven't seen any news articles about it unfortunately. But I'd wager that's more or less down to this only being known from a demo; if the game got released and this was still there, I'd bet on seeing a news article or two.
I don't necessarily think it needs too much attention to be removed, though. If someone in NoA spotted it they might pass a note along to avoid controversy.
 

stinkyguy666

Member
Nov 4, 2017
1,147


So since this story seems to be getting around, DualShockers have written an article about it and I really hate their wording for the headline.

It's a pretty bad headline obviously aimed at riling up reactionaries to get clicks on their article.

I'm pretty sure no one here is "accusing Smash Bros. or Sakurai of being intentionally racist". People are simply saying that Nintendo have made a call-back to racially insensitive imagery that should simply be ammended like it was in the GBA remake of that G&W game.

The only thing that inflammatory headlines like this do is blow things way out of proportion and attract the bat-shit crazy anti-sjw crowd.
 
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Pancracio17

▲ Legend ▲
Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
18,772
Removing the feather seems like an easy fix.
Sucks that you cant be 100% accurate, but what can you do when the source material is... that.
 

Brewster123

Self-Requested Ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,456
Charlottesville, VA


So since this story seems to be getting around, DualShockers have written an article about it and I really hate their wording for the headline.

It's a pretty bad headline obviously aimed at riling up reactionaries to get clicks on their article.

I'm pretty sure no one here is "accusing Smash Bros. or Sakurai of being intentionally racist". People are simply saying that Nintendo have made a call-back to racially insensitive imagery that should simply be ammended like it was in the GBA remake of that G&W game.

The only thing that inflammatory headlines like this do is blow things way out of proportion and attract the bat-shit crazy anti-sjw crowd.

Yeah that headline isn't going to help anyone.
EDIT: In retrospect, I think this was gonna get a negative reaction regardless of the headline, so I really can't fault anyone on this one.
 
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Lou Contaldi

Editor in Chief at DualShockers
Verified
Jan 5, 2018
12
Nashville


So since this story seems to be getting around, DualShockers have written an article about it and I really hate their wording for the headline.

It's a really bad headline obviously aimed at riling up reactionaries to get clicks on their article.

I'm pretty sure no one here is "accusing Smash Bros. or Sakurai of being intentionally racist". People are simply saying that Nintendo have made a call-back to racially insensitive imagery that should simply be ammended like it was in the GBA remake of that G&W game.

The only thing that stupid inflammatory headlines like this do is blow things way out of proportion and attract the bat-shit crazy anti-sjw crowd.


Hey Bub -- I'm the writer of the article. I think this leads to a broader discussion of "is accusing something as 'intentionally' or 'unintentionally' racist still calling something 'racist.'" I would say yes--thus the headline--but reasonable minds can disagree. Not trying to sound clickbait-y.

More importantly, the article itself talks more thoroughly on the backdrop and how Nintendo has previously taken steps to avoid insensitive imagery in the GBA games (as you mentioned). But obviously we have limitations on how many words we can throw in the title vs. the story itself.
 

Gotdatmoney

Member
Oct 28, 2017
14,500
They'll probably remove the feather. Would be a good idea.

I personally as an outsider don't really see the problem with the depiction in itself. Much like how Mario wore different outfits and had locations depicted. I do understand that the source isn't really a good thing with the theme and the genocide. But wouldn't Smash be a good opportunity to give it a new meaning as a fun Smash move instead of having that G&W being the only one?
No. Leave it the fuck in the past.
 

KZXcellent

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,969
I imagine it'll get changed in a Day 1 patch or one that comes very shortly after launch. Nintendo is pretty good about doing this given they removed the offensive gesture Inkling did in Mario Kart 8 deluxe.
 

stinkyguy666

Member
Nov 4, 2017
1,147
Hey Bub -- I'm the writer of the article. I think this leads to a broader discussion of "is accusing something as 'intentionally' or 'unintentionally' racist still calling something 'racist.'" I would say yes--thus the headline--but reasonable minds can disagree. Not trying to sound clickbait-y.

More importantly, the article itself talks more thoroughly on the backdrop and how Nintendo has previously taken steps to avoid insensitive imagery in the GBA games (as you mentioned). But obviously we have limitations on how many words we can throw in the title vs. the story itself.
I get it. In the article itself you do a good job of mentioning what people's concerns are.

Thing is though how many people who see that headline are actually going to bother to read the article?


I doubt these people will. I guess my main concern is that it's only going to rile these kinds of people up and create some false idea that "the crazy sjws are coming to take mr. game & watch away!". But that sort of thing was probably just bound to happen anyway tbh.
 

Lou Contaldi

Editor in Chief at DualShockers
Verified
Jan 5, 2018
12
Nashville
I get it. In the article itself you do a good job of mentioning what people's concerns are.

Thing is though how many people who see that headline are actually going to bother to read the article?


I doubt these people will. I guess my main concern is that it's only going to rile these kinds of people up and create some false idea that "the crazy sjws are coming to take mr. game & watch away!".


Thanks for the reply, earnestly appreciate the criticism. Always a good moment to be introspective into my own standards.

That said, I'm not sure "The Internet Alleges Super Smash Bros. Ultimate of Unintentional Racism Due to Fire Attack Reference" is going to get much of a different response from either side of the aisle. Anyway, thanks for the read regardless.
 

Xenogamer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
30
Let's just not make caricatures of marginalized/ethnic ppl in traditional dress, ok? Seems like a good rule. And as a Mexican American that Mario sombrero/pancho thinking was annoying, things like that for me conjure up bad memories growing up of white ppl dressing up as that making fun of my culture or using that to make fun of me. Apparently to the entertainment world all we have to offer is Dia de los muertos/sugar skulls, sombreros, and panchos. Cool.
 

Deleted member 23212

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
11,225
I have Cherokee background but I don't really have a say in this, considering I have almost no ties to that part of my background I wouldn't be able to view it with the same lens as those who do.
 

Deleted member 11093

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,095
If you aren't Native American, you aren't allowed to claim offensiveness to this. If Native Americans come together and want this changed, fine change it. But if you're just a social justice warrior trying to protect the "poor minorities", then you need to quit it. That attitude is more racist than anything.




what now
 

SpankyDoodle

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,082
Thanks for the reply, earnestly appreciate the criticism. Always a good moment to be introspective into my own standards.

That said, I'm not sure "The Internet Alleges Super Smash Bros. Ultimate of Unintentional Racism Due to Fire Attack Reference" is going to get much of a different response from either side of the aisle. Anyway, thanks for the read regardless.
"Unintentionally Racist Imagery Found In Smash Ultimate; Internet Calls For Nintendo To Change It" ?

Edit: Forgot the question mark!
 
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L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
50,031
I feel that discussions like these would go a lot better if people responded to potentially issues of racism being raised that potentially arose out of simple ignorance with a "whoops" instead of shitting their pants and rushing to the counteroffense.
 

Nitpicker_Red

Member
Nov 3, 2017
1,282
it's rather weird when they had a working version with no problems in past games and then they fall into this kind of problem.

luckily it should be an easy patch due to how G&W works.
For reference, Mr. Game & Watch is actually a 3D model that's rendered with a special flat shader that creates holes in the result image where necessary.
I don't know if this was what you were refering to, but in the end it's a model update on some of the parts that are used in that attack, similar to updating any other fighter, but with the shader hiding the finer details.
9fd.png
 

GoldStarz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,040
For reference, Mr. Game & Watch is actually a 3D model that's rendered with a special flat shader that creates holes in the result image where necessary.
I don't know if this was what you were refering to, but in the end it's a model update on some of the parts that are used in that attack, similar to updating any other fighter, but with the shader hiding the finer details.
Wait so they made a totally new model just for this attack to be a racial stereotype that's definitely going to end up getting patched out because of cultural insensitivity? Yikes! That sounds like a waste of resources.
 

Oaklight

Avenger
Jun 16, 2018
933
I bet they could fix this simply by removing the feather and adding a bandit mask to make it look more like it is an outlaw or criminal or something to make this a bit less offensive. As it is, it is a very offensive stereotype of Natives and would probably best be patched as soon as possible.
 

Starphanluke

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Nov 15, 2017
7,335
Yeah, like others have said, I'm sure the intention wasn't to be offensive, but it is. I really hope this gets patched out in some way- it's simply not acceptable.
 

dunny Rega

Banned
May 17, 2018
2
User Banned (Permanent): Dismissing concerns of racism, signing up to troll.
Since when ink drawn characters are supposed to be black? none of the Game&watch characters are a specific race. stop with this. the racist ones are you guys.
 

Syril

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,895
Wait so they made a totally new model just for this attack to be a racial stereotype that's definitely going to end up getting patched out because of cultural insensitivity? Yikes! That sounds like a waste of resources.
I mean in Melee they went as far as to make two different 3D models of the Topi enemy from Ice Climber to reflect the "seal" and "yeti" versions of it.
 

Deleted member 21858

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
716
If we want to, we can pressure almost every game to remove some kind of content because it´s offensive to somebody or some cultures. Not saying that the native american portrayed in Smash Bros is cool, but it was primarily found by the american audience, which is more vocal about it. As a Brazilian, for example, I could also contact Capcom, Ubisoft and other companies for a few reasons which can be even worse than the native american depicted in the OP example.

- I want Blanka removed from Street Fighter because he helps to give the notion that Brazilians live in the jungle and are savages.
- I want fighting stages and maps set in Brazil removed which feature favelas and jungles, because it helps give the notion that there is only violence here (partially true, lolz) and we live as monkeys in the jungle.

Of course that native americans need to be protected and have their rights respected. The idea to change it should be passed to Sakurai, and it´s fine if they change it. If they don´t change it, I think it´s also fine to respect their decision to not alter their initial idea and vision for the game.
 

spaglu

Member
Oct 11, 2018
13
If we want to, we can pressure almost every game to remove some kind of content because it´s offensive to somebody or some cultures.

Yes, this is the power of the people/consumer. If the force is strong enough, the companies will change or else they will lose money. Simple as that, and our right to protest to things we don't like.
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,969
They probably just pulled an old design from the old Game & Watch games and thought nothing of it. Japanese media has an unfortunate history of playing off of stereotypes as if it's no big deal. It's still rampant in anime.

Its something I could see patched out of the western versions but kept in the Japanese release.
 

MrSaturn99

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,458
I live in a giant bucket.


So since this story seems to be getting around, DualShockers have written an article about it and I really hate their wording for the headline.

It's a pretty bad headline obviously aimed at riling up reactionaries to get clicks on their article.

I'm pretty sure no one here is "accusing Smash Bros. or Sakurai of being intentionally racist". People are simply saying that Nintendo have made a call-back to racially insensitive imagery that should simply be ammended like it was in the GBA remake of that G&W game.

The only thing that inflammatory headlines like this do is blow things way out of proportion and attract the bat-shit crazy anti-sjw crowd.


This is a very disappointing headline. They can do better.
 

spaglu

Member
Oct 11, 2018
13
I tend to agree with you. Also the fact that every Native American person I've seen comment on the subject doesn't care. If they don't care why do we feel the need to? Just seems a little off base if you ask me.

You don't need to care, you can be ignorant if you want. I can care if I want to. When I see injustice to others than myself, I choose to care.