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Oct 26, 2017
8,055
Appalachia
Do y'all, like, seriously think that the folks in this thread are gonna walk up to a 7-year-old and lambast/stereotype/whatever them for calling themselves a gamer?

I wish I could say I'm flabbergasted at the lack of critical thinking on display here
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,750
Do y'all, like, seriously think that the folks in this thread are gonna walk up to a 7-year-old and lambast them for calling themselves a gamer?

I wish I could say I'm flabbergasted at the lack of critical thinking on display here
Exactly - though if people actually cared about the kids they'd be worried about the toxicity they get exposed to. But no, it's people that don't like to label themselves gamer that are really going to upset the kids. Some of the first sexism I was exposed to as a kid was through gaming. I would hate to think little girls are having to go through the same thing nowadays.
 

TheGhost

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,137
Long Island
I enjoy videogames, if someone calls me a gamer it's ok. I'm not exactly opposed to it. It's a umbrella term for the hobby I love.
 

AstronaughtE

Member
Nov 26, 2017
10,341
Er, what???? Do I really want to know what the heck this is?????
We're all birds but we're not all the same kind of bird is too much of a leap? When I say think of a bird what comes to mind? A pigeon? An ostrich? An eagle?

The term Gamer isn't the end of the classification process. Is that too hard to grasp? Is it too much of a leap?
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,750
We're all birds but we're not all the same kind of bird is too much of a leap? When I say think of a bird what comes to mind? A pigeon? An ostrich? An eagle?

The term Gamer isn't the end of the classification process. Is that too hard to grasp? Is it too much of a leap?
I meant the "poopsocked" thing which I did actually bold in your quote.
 

Xeontech

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,059
You can replace 'gamers' with literally any hobby, any race, any ethnicity or sexual orientation, and say the same thing. And you would still be just as wrong.

Those individuals that partook in the horrendous activities you mention are indeed the scum of the earth. Those scum exist in all facets of life. They do deserve the hate you express.

Ironically, Generalizing the entire group of individuals that call themselves 'gamers' or those that play/enjoy/research/develop games and lumping them into the same group of individuals, quite simply makes you much more like those that you hate than the rest of those that call themselves and identify as gamers.

It's not much different than calling all Germans Nazis because they lived in the same space as those horrendous criminals.

Just because you define those individuals as 'gamers' doesn't mean you should force that definition on others that don't use the same definition and would never act in such a shameful manner.

It's immature, and quite hypocritical.
One of the main problems is using the word 'Gamer' is entirely too general and broad to use in such a way.
 

nillansan

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,520
Denmark
Just because you define those individuals as 'gamers' doesn't mean you should force that definition on others that don't use the same definition and would never act in such a shameful manner.

I guess this needs to be stated over and over again. This goes beyond Gamer Gate! Let me ask you this though, do you see yourself in category A or B?

A. If you want to label yourself as a Gamer, while acknowledging the concerns and grievances raised by members of marginalised groups and actively working towards ridding the culture of toxicity, allowing members of marginalised groups to feel welcome, then you're good in my book, but in my optics, apathy and dismissive attitudes are far too common within the culture, so if you do indeed fit this description you're essentially breaking the mold. Thank you.

B. If you want to label yourself as a Gamer and the above description does not fit you, then you're at the very least a part of the problem. Even as a passive onlooker, you're allowing members of marginalised groups to be alienated.
 
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darz1

darz1

Member
Dec 18, 2017
7,121
I've already shared my thoughts on this in this thread. It basically boils down to something as simple as...

A. If you want to label yourself as a Gamer, while acknowledging the concerns and grievances raised by members of marginalised groups and actively working towards ridding the culture of toxicity, allowing members of marginalised groups to feel welcome, then you're good in my book, but in my optics, apathy and dismissive attitudes are far too common within the culture, so if you do indeed fit this description you're essentially breaking the mold. Thank you.

B. If you want to label yourself as a Gamer and the above description does not fit you, then you're at the very least a part of the problem. Even as a passive onlooker, you're allowing members of marginalised groups to be alienated.

I've already stated why I, as a person of colour, reject the label.
Im a Black gamer myself. I was raised by my mother and was taught to always respect women. I grew up gaming and its a big part of my life, yeah I have other hobbies (sports, music, cooking) but gaming is one of my biggest hobbies and thats why im a gamer. Its not all I am but it is something I am. I hate bigotry, racism, sexism, homophobia and transphobia. I do acknowledge that there are problems with these things in the gaming community and I will speak against it everytime. Voice chat and certain online communities especially show how disgusting some gamers can be.

For me personally, being a gamer is the same as being a video game enthusiast. Granted I considered myself a gamer long before I ever played a game online so I wasnt exposed to the toxicity that exists in the gaming community. But that toxicity is a problem whether I call myself a gamer or not
 

Mesoian

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
26,819
Just because you define those individuals as 'gamers' doesn't mean you should force that definition on others that don't use the same definition and would never act in such a shameful manner.
Oh please.

This is some #notallgamers bullshit.

Real talk, if you're unwilling to speak up against the hardships that a SIGNIFICANT chunk of so-called gamers endorses and subscribe to, openly and fully, you're part of the problem of why gamers are seen as a pejorative to the rest of the world. The head in the sand, "not my problem, just let me play the video game" garbage is how gamers got put under this light in the first place. The hand waving, cast off, "but it's not all of us, it's not me right?" nonsense isn't good enough anymore. It was never good enough.

And spoilers: If you don't, and you try to actively fight against the normative hatred that is being online in a video game as a woman or a minority, good. We're not talking about you. But if you're just letting that shit go, you're part of the problem. And as history has shown, there are more than "just a vocal minority" who will let anything, no matter how vile, pass, and I quote, "as long as I get to play the video game".

Fuck outta here with this "but generalizations" garbage. You know who I'm talking about and they are the FACE of the label of "gamer" that you hold so dear.
 
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darz1

darz1

Member
Dec 18, 2017
7,121
Exactly - though if people actually cared about the kids they'd be worried about the toxicity they get exposed to. But no, it's people that don't like to label themselves gamer that are really going to upset the kids. Some of the first sexism I was exposed to as a kid was through gaming. I would hate to think little girls are having to go through the same thing nowadays.
Of course the toxicity in online gaming is a big problem. Its really messed up that you and countless other girls/women are targeted and bullied by fuckwit losers when gaming. Its part of why I dont allow my kids to chat online. And the gaming community rightly so should oppose this sort of behaviour.

Having said that I dont think a girl/woman identifying as a "gamer" and a girl/woman identifying as "a person who plays video games" are really going to experience any difference from one another when engaging with the gaming community. The problem is still there whether you identify yourself as a gamer or not.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,179
Of course the toxicity in online gaming is a big problem. Its really messed up that you and countless other girls/women are targeted and bullied by fuckwit losers when gaming. Its part of why I dont allow my kids to chat online. And the gaming community rightly so should oppose this sort of behaviour.

Having said that I dont think a girl/woman identifying as a "gamer" and a girl/woman identifying as "a person who plays video games" are really going to experience any difference from one another when engaging with the gaming community. The problem is still there whether you identify yourself as a gamer or not.

The point is that people don't want to associate themselves with the worst kind of behavior from so called gamers.

You're right that people who play online will be exposed to it regardless of how they define themselves. But many people view "gamer" as a term heavily associated with toxicity, hate movements and negativity targeted at people who don't play "real games". So they don't want to be lumped in with that group, and want to avoid the unhealthy gamer mindset.
 

Hey Please

Avenger
Oct 31, 2017
22,824
Not America
LsPa9es.gif
 

StuBurns

Self Requested Ban
Banned
Nov 12, 2017
7,273
I feel like this thread greatly overestimates how loaded the term is. Maybe it's a regional thing, but I've never heard anyone in real life associate the term with the thing people are referring to. I'm certainly not saying it's not used in that way in certain areas of the internet, but I think for a great many people, they just use it interchangeably with 'someone who plays games'.

The "gamer" thing, the people who watched South Park too young to understand it was satire and it destroyed their mind, it may even be the norm in online scenarios, like that Siege (?) gif, but as I've not played a competitive MP game with people talking ever, I'm not sure, but I do know that I've never heard anyone use the term as a pejorative in real life.
 

Pixieking

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,986
You know this is a super inside baseball subject? Most gamers don't even know GG existed. Those who would know would be in the hardcore camp since it requires some interest in gaming beyond playing games--reading about games and gaming culture.

I would say you're downplaying GG tremendously - the post you're replying to has articles from one of the UK's major newspapers, and the Washington Post. Both papers (as well as the NYT, and other UK papers) have written about GG and gaming harassment a lot. From "It's about ethics in games journalism" to it being referenced in articles about gaming harassment (like the recent Riot social media controversy), GG is inescapable for many who play games, unless they're being wilfully ignorant.

Personally, I just accept that gamers are people and are a diverse group of individuals. Some good, some bad, some horrendous. I'm sure there are car enthusiasts that are horrible bigots out there as well. I don't believe that would hinder other car enthusiasts from accepting the term.

Because car enthusiasts don't define themselves by the term - they're (generally) well-rounded individuals who have wives, kids, friends outside their hobby, jobs, etc.

Contrast with the term "gamer", which saw a number of articles about the death of the term (due in part because of GG and harassment), which shitty "gamers" then seized upon and harassed a couple of the writers about.

What this discussion is getting into, I think, is whether this:

If you call yourself a "gamer" and are a cool person, keep on being a cool person.

Can still be a true statement, considering all that has happened since 2014.
 

Xeontech

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,059
Oh please.

This is some #notallgamers bullshit.

Real talk, if you're unwilling to speak up against the hardships that a SIGNIFICANT chunk of so-called gamers endorses and subscribe to, openly and fully, you're part of the problem of why gamers are seen as a pejorative to the rest of the world. The head in the sand, "not my problem, just let me play the video game" garbage is how gamers got put under this light in the first place. The hand waving, cast off, "but it's not all of us, it's not me right?" nonsense isn't good enough anymore. It was never good enough.

And spoilers: If you don't, and you try to actively fight against the normative hatred that is being online in a video game as a woman or a minority, good. We're not talking about you. But if you're just letting that shit go, you're part of the problem. And as history has shown, there are more than "just a vocal minority" who will let anything, no matter how vile, pass, and I quote, "as long as I get to play the video game".

Fuck outta here with this "but generalizations" garbage. You know who I'm talking about and they are the FACE of the label of "gamer" that you hold so dear.
'gamer' is far too broad. You guys are doing exactly what you hate. And some of you are doing it purposefully.

"Fuck off"

Gee what a mature argument. Talk about ignorance.
 

Mesoian

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
26,819
The "gamer" thing, the people who watched South Park too young to understand it was satire and it destroyed their mind, it may even be the norm in online scenarios, like that Siege (?) gif, but as I've not played a competitive MP game with people talking ever, I'm not sure, but I do know that I've never heard anyone use the term as a pejorative in real life.
Real talk, my aunt knows I'm a big into gaming, and she came up to me and pulled me off to the side one day and asked me if I had a problem with women because of it. We had a long conversation about the rampant toxicity in the gaming sphere and how no one really seems to want to do anything about it, save for profit off it, ignore it, or wash their hands of it. When I say that the shitty behavior of #GAMERS is the face of the culture, I'm not kidding. Because we've spent so much time pointing the problems and making excuses for them, we're at the point where, even though gaming is more popular and progressive than it's ever been, the grand populous doesn't want to associate themselves with the culture at all, and this is during the point where gaming leagues are making millions from broadcasting professional gaming into people's homes. It's that bad.

But naw, "it's not everyone so it's not a problem, people shouldn't have a problem with the term even though the ones that are using it the most and the loudest and the ones rooting around in sexism and bigotry. Let people call themselves whatever they want, and let's not judge everyone for the mistakes of the people who are giving everyone else a bad name".

Or, you know, say "fuck those people, they don't represent me" and actually understand why the term is fucking toxic.

Ironically, some gamers insist on gatekeeping the word because it's so deep in their identity that they don't want it to lose meaning for themselves.

Like, there are people who take that stupid stupid STUPID Tim Buckley comic as GOSPEL.
 

Xeontech

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,059
User Banned (5 Days): Inflammatory false equivalence
Ironically, some gamers insist on gatekeeping the word because it's so deep in their identity that they don't want it to lose meaning for themselves.
For most people that play games, the term game enthusiast, gameophile, game player, one who plays games, etc ad nauseum are completely interchangeable with gamer.

You are using an EXTREMELY broad label to vilify a tiny small slice of the population that falls under that label. And worse you try to force that vilified definition on anyone that dares use the term.

It would suit the cause better if you used a specific term for that slice, like 'gamergaters' or 'gamedicks' or something that doesn't sound like your attacking every person that is interested in games.

Thing is, there are some of you that WANT to generalize and vilify the entire group due to hate. And those of you like that are no better than racists and Nazis you fight so hard.
 

Deleted member 1589

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,576
For most people that play games, the term game enthusiast, gameophile, game player, one who plays games, etc ad nauseum are completely interchangeable with gamer.

You are using an EXTREMELY broad label to vilify a tiny small slice of the population that falls under that label. And worse you try to force that vilified definition on anyone that dares use the term.

It would suit the cause better if you used a specific term for that slice, like 'gamergaters' or 'gamedicks' or something that doesn't sound like your attacking every person that is interested in games.

Thing is, there are some of you that WANT to generalize and vilify the entire group due to hate. And those of you like that are no better than racists and Nazis you fight so hard.
God I laughed so hard at this post.
 

Pixieking

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,986
For most people that play games, the term game enthusiast, gameophile, game player, one who plays games, etc ad nauseum are completely interchangeable with gamer.

You are using an EXTREMELY broad label to vilify a tiny small slice of the population that falls under that label. And worse you try to force that vilified definition on anyone that dares use the term.

I said a few pages back:

I think if people embrace it, then it's fine, but they a) shouldn't be upset if other people impose definitions on it, and judge them accordingly and b) they shouldn't blind themselves to the alternate readings that the word has.

It would suit the cause better if you used a specific term for that slice, like 'gamergaters' or 'gamedicks' or something that doesn't sound like your attacking every person that is interested in games.

Except the connotations of "gamer" are already out there. They've been out there - in the wider world - since 2014, if not before. And every few months, "gamers" shit the bed and make the word even more toxic for the rest of us.

As I say, if people want to use "gamer" for themselves, that's fine - just be aware that it's as bad a descriptor in the eyes of a lot of people as "smoker".
 

Sibylus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,731
tfw shitting on gamers is equivalent to shooting up synagogues and black churches

... wait, I *don't* feel it, because that's crap :thinking:
 
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darz1

darz1

Member
Dec 18, 2017
7,121
Ironically, some gamers insist on gatekeeping the word because it's so deep in their identity that they don't want it to lose meaning for themselves.
While other gamers such as myself feel that broadening the word to be more inclusive of gamers from all walks of life who participating in gaming is the way to go.
 

entremet

You wouldn't toast a NES cartridge
Member
Oct 26, 2017
60,655
I would say you're downplaying GG tremendously - the post you're replying to has articles from one of the UK's major newspapers, and the Washington Post. Both papers (as well as the NYT, and other UK papers) have written about GG and gaming harassment a lot. From "It's about ethics in games journalism" to it being referenced in articles about gaming harassment (like the recent Riot social media controversy), GG is inescapable for many who play games, unless they're being wilfully ignorant.



Because car enthusiasts don't define themselves by the term - they're (generally) well-rounded individuals who have wives, kids, friends outside their hobby, jobs, etc.

Contrast with the term "gamer", which saw a number of articles about the death of the term (due in part because of GG and harassment), which shitty "gamers" then seized upon and harassed a couple of the writers about.

What this discussion is getting into, I think, is whether this:



Can still be a true statement, considering all that has happened since 2014.
Again, people don't read newspapers I think we're showing our biases here. We're massively informed. Moreover, this is one step to another abstraction, gamers being a term made toxic by GG. We're at the next level of the conversation. A level the mainstream doesn't even think about.
 

Pixieking

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,986
While other gamers such as myself feel that broadening the word to be more inclusive of gamers from all walks of life who participating in gaming is the way to go.

I used to think that too, but I - personally - think it's passed the point of being redeemed. And I also think it's slightly besides the point, anyways - the closed gatekeeping meaning of the word is more a symptom of how some people think and act. Changing the meaning of the word isn't going to change obsessed/narrow-minded people's views.

Personally speaking, anyway. :)

Again, people don't read newspapers I think we're showing our biases here. We're massively informed. Moreover, this is one step to another abstraction, gamers being a term made toxic by GG. We're at the next level of the conversation. A level the mainstream doesn't even think about.

I don't even know what to say to the bolded. My point has been that "gamer" is toxic due to the mainstream associating toxic behaviour with the word. To those ends, here's a 5 minute Google of "gamergate" just hitting mainstream (mostly non-rightwing) sites.

NYT
Dailydot
Dailybeast
New Yorker
CNET
The Mirror
CNN
Washington Examiner/Fox News
The American Bar Association (linking to The Verge)
Variety
NPR
The Independent
NYMag
Newsweek
Business Insider
LA Times
HuffPost (video)
BBC
Vox
Wired

You say "people don't read newspapers", but I would argue that "gamer" is so pervasive in its toxicity people can't help but make associations.
 
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Oct 26, 2017
8,055
Appalachia
Moreover, this is one step to another abstraction, gamers being a term made toxic by GG.
Okay I need some clarification from the side of the discussion that is fine with criticizing "gamers" as such:

Do y'all think the term "gamer" was made toxic by GG, or do you think the term was toxic before then?

This is a point that keeps getting brought up and there needs to be some kind of definitive clarification on what is meant, because honestly it seems like people are talking past each other to a degree.
 
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darz1

darz1

Member
Dec 18, 2017
7,121
Real talk, my aunt knows I'm a big into gaming, and she came up to me and pulled me off to the side one day and asked me if I had a problem with women because of it. We had a long conversation about the rampant toxicity in the gaming sphere and how no one really seems to want to do anything about it, save for profit off it, ignore it, or wash their hands of it. When I say that the shitty behavior of #GAMERS is the face of the culture, I'm not kidding. Because we've spent so much time pointing the problems and making excuses for them, we're at the point where, even though gaming is more popular and progressive than it's ever been, the grand populous doesn't want to associate themselves with the culture at all, and this is during the point where gaming leagues are making millions from broadcasting professional gaming into people's homes. It's that bad.

But naw, "it's not everyone so it's not a problem, people shouldn't have a problem with the term even though the ones that are using it the most and the loudest and the ones rooting around in sexism and bigotry. Let people call themselves whatever they want, and let's not judge everyone for the mistakes of the people who are giving everyone else a bad name".

Or, you know, say "fuck those people, they don't represent me" and actually understand why the term is fucking toxic.



Like, there are people who take that stupid stupid STUPID Tim Buckley comic as GOSPEL.
Your aunty pulled you aside because you are big into gaming. It doesnt really matter if you call yourself a "gamer" or a "person who plays games" she had the same exact stereotypical view of you. To her there was no difference. Its the being big into video games part that she judged you by.

You could have had the exact same conversation about toxicity in gaming and how you arent like that even if you identified as a "gamer". You could even still say "fuck those people they dont represent me" because even though you both game, they are loser ass bigots and you are not.
 

Mesoian

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
26,819
Your aunty pulled you aside because you are big into gaming. It doesnt really matter if you call yourself a "gamer" or a "person who plays games" she had the same exact stereotypical view of you. To her there was no difference. Its the being big into video games part that she judged you by.
PRECISELY. We've let what a "GAMER" is get out of control. We're all responsible for that. At this point, I don't know if we can ever flip it to something positive considering every other week it's the loudest of us complaining about female inclusion or denying diversity with some weak ass claim of "historical accuracy" or some such rot.

You could have had the exact same conversation about toxicity in gaming and how you arent like that even if you identified as a "gamer". You could even still say "fuck those people they dont represent me" because even though you both game, they are loser ass bigots and you are not.
And we did. But not everyone is going to be in the position to have that conversation.

Like, for example, would you avidly call yourself a gamer in the work place?
 
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spman2099

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,897
Yes, that is the technical definition of the term.

However, video gaming, unlike literally every other form of media consumption, seems to be an identity-defining trait. Words like "cinephile" exist, or bibliophile, but only for people who are basically "obsessed". Almost no one who goes to the movies with normal frequency describes themselves as "cinephiles".

People literally identify as "gamers", which no one does for just going to see films, read books, or listen to music. When the label becomes personal, human brains begin to feel attacked, defensive, and outright hostile toward anything they perceive as threatening that identity, like other groups coming in to the hobby, people writing negative reviews about certain things, different political viewpoints appearing in their games, and so on.

So, yes, while I'm certainly a "gamer", it's a term with a loaded connotation and I don't particularly enjoy associating myself with it, as much as I love games.

Nailed it.

Good point.

I herby declare that I am not a Gamer.

Enjoy your toxic gaming community, gamers, I'm not one of you any more so it's not my problem to solve.

It never occurred to me that by distancing myself from the problem it became no longer my problem.

No I can sit and moan about "gamers" while savouring that sweet sweet sense of superiority.

Cheers!

Yamatake? More like Hitowara...
 
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UCBooties

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
2,311
Pennsylvania, USA
Man, we got a lot of time travelers from 2014 in this thread. Welcome to 2018, some stuff has happened in the intervening years. You might want to buckle up when you get back to 2014 because the next few years are gonna be rough.
 

StuBurns

Self Requested Ban
Banned
Nov 12, 2017
7,273
Real talk, my aunt knows I'm a big into gaming, and she came up to me and pulled me off to the side one day and asked me if I had a problem with women because of it. We had a long conversation about the rampant toxicity in the gaming sphere and how no one really seems to want to do anything about it, save for profit off it, ignore it, or wash their hands of it. When I say that the shitty behavior of #GAMERS is the face of the culture, I'm not kidding. Because we've spent so much time pointing the problems and making excuses for them, we're at the point where, even though gaming is more popular and progressive than it's ever been, the grand populous doesn't want to associate themselves with the culture at all, and this is during the point where gaming leagues are making millions from broadcasting professional gaming into people's homes. It's that bad.

But naw, "it's not everyone so it's not a problem, people shouldn't have a problem with the term even though the ones that are using it the most and the loudest and the ones rooting around in sexism and bigotry. Let people call themselves whatever they want, and let's not judge everyone for the mistakes of the people who are giving everyone else a bad name".

Or, you know, say "fuck those people, they don't represent me" and actually understand why the term is fucking toxic.
I understand what the term means, but I also don't suffer from myopia. Not everyone has the same context towards gaming culture as I, or you, or seemingly your grandmother does.

I promise you, here in Pembrokeshire, gamer, as a pejoritive, is not common within the lexicon. Now, certainly, I could stop and correct someone, but it just feel woke to do so. You're in the middle of a friendly conversation with someone who's excited about picking up an Xbox and Red Dead, and I'm meant to disrupt it with a political discussion about gamer gate and the poisonous fallout? It just seems inappropriate to me.

I've had an issue with the term for a lot longer than the last five years. I never understood why a hobby needed to be used to personify the person. It happens with some but not others. A fishing enthusiast is a fisherman, a fan of cycling is a cyclist, and yeah, there are cinema fans who self-identify as a cinephile, but the most part, the media consuming fans don't describe themselves in relation to their hobbies at all, I suppose because we all consume music, and literature, and film, so there's no need to highlight it, and much in the same way, everyone plays video games now. If it's five minutes on the bus on their phone, or they want the whole 70" OLED Dolby Atmos get up. It's just differing levels of engagement in the same thing that practically everyone in the Western world engages with on some level.

I don't see the point in trying to 'save' the term Gamer, it was fucking dumb to begin with, but I'm certainly not going to lecture anyone using it without realising that it is a loaded term in many circles.
 

Pixieking

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,986
Okay I need some clarification from the side of the discussion that is fine with criticizing "gamers" as such:

Do y'all think the term "gamer" was made toxic by GG, or do you think the term was toxic before then?

This is a point that keeps getting brought up and there needs to be some kind of definitive clarification on what is meant, because honestly it seems like people are talking past each other to a degree.

I think it was toxic, but mostly only when it came to people who knew gamers personally, or third hand. Like, people who gamed before 2014 knew gamers were awful dicks (in, say, CS:S or LoL), and friends/family of gamers knew how bad gamers were, either through direct experience, or stories told. 2014 (GG) blew that toxicity into the mainstream, but I think even older people would've been wary of calling themselves gamers and fully embracing that word before 2014, because they knew how shitty people in the gaming community could be. That, alongside the "identity defining trait" that Feep right calls out, would've made more mature people - those in their 30s/40s/50s, who had been playing games since the 80s or 90s - unlikely to identify as a gamer. Especially if they had, say, partner and kids and a non-industry job and a mortgage, etc.
 

Mesoian

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
26,819
I understand what the term means, but I also don't suffer from myopia. Not everyone has the same context towards gaming culture as I, or you, or seemingly your grandmother does.

I promise you, here in Pembrokeshire, gamer, as a pejoritive, is not common within the lexicon. Now, certainly, I could stop and correct someone, but it just feel woke to do so. You're in the middle of a friendly conversation with someone who's excited about picking up an Xbox and Red Dead, and I'm meant to disrupt it with a political discussion about gamer gate and the poisonous fallout? It just seems inappropriate to me.

I've had an issue with the term for a lot longer than the last five years. I never understood why a hobby needed to be used to personify the person. It happens with some but not others. A fishing enthusiast is a fisherman, a fan of cycling is a cyclist, and yeah, there are cinema fans who self-identify as a cinephile, but the most part, the media consuming fans don't describe themselves in relation to their hobbies at all, I suppose because we all consume music, and literature, and film, so there's no need to highlight it, and much in the same way, everyone plays video games now. If it's five minutes on the bus on their phone, or they want the whole 70" OLED Dolby Atmos get up. It's just differing levels of engagement in the same thing that practically everyone in the Western world engages with on some level.

I don't see the point in trying to 'save' the term Gamer, it was fucking dumb to begin with, but I'm certainly not going to lecture anyone using it without realising that it is a loaded term in many circles.
I mean personally, in my opinion, let the term burn. We don't need it and all that's happened is that we've allowed it to saddle people who wouldn't otherwise care about enthusiast problems with social baggage. We need to stop defining ourselves by the media we chose to consume.
 

Mesoian

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
26,819
Hard to make an argument when you're wrong.

I mean your argument is literally, "no shut up though" so...::SHRUG::

Or excuse me, it's not "no shut up though" it's, "by pointing out the fact that the thing has extremely negative connotations when talking about the people engaging with said thing, we're doing a disservice to said thing, so we should ignore the bad behavior because it might make people who don't engage within it feel bad".

Which, again, is horse shit.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid

While I love that webcomic, for it to apply here you'd have to replace the first character's speech balloon with "society is bad, I am no longer part of it". Which is the entire point of this thread: "leaving" a collective (inasmuch peeling off a label makes you less part of it in reality) because you think it's beyond "improving".

Frankly this is quickly becoming the #2 most stupid argument about videogames after "are videogames art", and for the same reason: worrying about words and definitions more than about the reality the words try to describe. Generally speaking, any discussion that deflates into nothing the second you taboo a specific word is a discussion not worth having in the first place.

Thing is, there are some of you that WANT to generalize and vilify the entire group due to hate. And those of you like that are no better than racists and Nazis you fight so hard.

I am pretty sure even wrongly believing that all gamers are Nazis would still make you better than an actual fucking Nazi.
 

Xeontech

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,059
I mean your argument is literally, "no shut up though" so...::SHRUG::
??only ones saying "fuck off" are the immature ignorant posts like yours and your buddies.

"I laughed so hard!"
"I don't feel it"
"Fuck outta here"

When others of us argue the term is too broad, should be inclusive and hate based generalization is wrong.

Who is ignorant and immature here? You guys obviously have no counterargument.

Edit: most gamers won't even know what you're talking about when you say 'gamergater'

You guys live in a vacuum that only propagates more hate towards those that don't deserve it.
 

Pixieking

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,986
I mean personally, in my opinion, let the term burn. We don't need it and all that's happened is that we've allowed it to saddle people who wouldn't otherwise care about enthusiast problems with social baggage. We need to stop defining ourselves by the media we chose to consume.

All of this, so hard.
 

Mesoian

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
26,819
??only ones saying "fuck off" are the immature ignorant posts like yours and your buddies.

"I laughed so hard!"
"I don't feel it"
"Fuck outta here"

When others of us argue the term is too broad, should be inclusive and hate based generalization is wrong.

Who is ignorant and immature here? You guys obviously have no counterargument.

A counterargument to #notallgamers?

Please. That's not an argument, that's ignoring the problem because it's easier to self identify with consuming media than it is to face the problems of the subculture.

It's literally, "it's not a slur, because I identify as one and I think I'm pretty swell..."
 

Xeontech

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,059
A counterargument to #notallgamers?

Please. That's not an argument, that's ignoring the problem because it's easier to self identify with consuming media than it is to face the problems of the subculture.

It's literally, "it's not a slur, because I identify as one and I think I'm pretty swell..."
The fact you preface your argument with a hashtag says it all. I know this will go over your head, but what you are doing will never get you the results you want. You're trying to fight hate with more hate. Generalizing and vilifying people with labels. It's sad.
 

Mesoian

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
26,819
The fact you preface your argument with a hashtag says it all. I know this will go over your head, but what you are doing will never get you the results you want. You're trying to fight hate with more hate. Generalizing and vilifying people with labels. It's sad.

And that's not a counter-argument either.

Edit: most gamers won't even know what you're talking about when you say 'gamergater'

You guys live in a vacuum that only propagates more hate towards those that don't deserve it.

"MOST PEOPLE DON'T KNOW....SO IT'S FINE!"

Real talk, if you truly believe that gamer isn't a slur and doesn't deserve the negative connotations behind it, you better be putting in EXTRA work every time you see or hear an instance of racism, sexism, facism, whathaveyou when it appears. Because it's a daily thing my friend. The toxicity in this culture is REAL, whether you want to be associated with it or not.
 

TheModestGun

Banned
Dec 5, 2017
3,781
With the connotation of the word these days. No I really don't want to be labeled as a "gamer" or really any part of "gamer culture".

That shit is just straight up embarrassing.

Not because playing videogames, but all of the weird toxic entitlement crap that has developed over the years. It's just gross. Gamergate made it even more gross.
 

Xeontech

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,059
And that's not a counter-argument either.



"MOST PEOPLE DON'T KNOW....SO IT'S FINE!"

Real talk, if you truly believe that gamer isn't a slur and doesn't deserve the negative connotations behind it, you better be putting in EXTRA work every time you see or hear an instance of racism, sexism, facism, whathaveyou when it appears. Because it's a daily thing my friend. The toxicity in this culture is REAL, whether you want to be associated with it or not.
It's not that "it's fine" it's that most people don't use the word gamer the way you do. Most people use 'gamer' to mean someone that plays games.

Trying to distance yourself from that in a purely Symantics fashion, as if game enthusiast, game player or something other than 'gamer' means anything different is just immature and hypocritical.

Yes being proactive about showing gamers in a different more positive light is paramount I agree.

And that can be done first by not generalizing ourselves in such a harmful way as to act as if anyone that identifies as a'gamer' is just another gamergate asshole. And defending the term 'gamer' somehow makes you one of them.
 
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