Super Smash Bros. Ultimate had an offensive stereotype regarding Native Americans (Update: Removed)

B. Spaceman · Nov 3, 2018

It probably wasn't made with malicious intentions, they thought that way was more faithful to the original G&W machine and they don't know the context...

With the sombrero thing I don't see the issue, honestly. It's like when a character is from Spain they dress him in a bullfighter costume, or they dance flamenco. It's a cliché and stereotypical, but not racist I think

deepFlaw · Nov 3, 2018

Yukinari said:
I think we're starting to reach speedy gonzalez territory if people think sombrero mario actually offended anybody.

Mexicans were quite vocal about both those topics and said do not take things they enjoy away from them. Im sure someone has the classic twitter image for odyssey.

To be fair, the criticism I saw about Odyssey was not literally just about the outfit and more about that Kingdom as a whole too.

Nitpicker_Red said:
Is it about who controls the representation rather than the representation itself?
(Similar to "right to image" and "right of distribution" in copyright)

Yup, they changed the so-called "Tomahawk" costume to a "Hawkeye" cowboy costume.
Edit: found the change in an old thread:

Isn't there a discussion to be had about removing cultural representation wholesale, thus making some cultural groups more invisible/blending together in modern society?
Even though it's also to take in account that not every culture wants to have their cultural elements shared in public (for example religious symbols) and some want nothing to do with modern society anyway.

It's not as straightforward as "never make any reference". I think it should be made a bit more explicit on what the offensive issue is by someone better at explaining that kind of things, because as someone not as well-versed in that, I'm unable to focus in on the offense.
Edit: It seems like it IS a case of "never make any reference" here, as any representation has become taboo due to reminding of the genocide that took place in America.
I might still be misinterpreting it (an american taboo rather than a representation problem?) as this is removed from my cultural background.

"Non-native character wears a themed outfit" is not representation. It's a Halloween costume, with the exact same issues people have with actual Halloween costumes like this.

It's less about "referencing" and more about respecting the symbols of a culture that aren't supposed to be used like this, yes. And how there's little actual representation, just this sort of thing.

Slam Tilt · Nov 3, 2018

mazi said:
isn't it explained itt? it references mr. game&watch from a game he was in where the game itself has a racist premise.

Now I want to see someone make a Game & Watch game clone where you control a Native American/indigenous people/whatever trying to stop colonial invaders from leaving smallpox-infected blankets in the village square.

(Not making light of the situation; I just think the afformentioned game scenario would be funny)

Loudninja · Nov 3, 2018

Jaibamon said:
If you don't like it don't buy it. Stop ruining my games by trying to police what I can play and how should I do it.

This is like the sombrero thing on Mario Odyssey, Americans saying it was offensive, Mexicans feeling it as a compliment and the rest of the world didn't care.

Should we ban native American outfits on videogames? There are a lot. How about desert levels with egiptian scenery? How many games have oriental themes?

Remember, being offended is an emotion we decide to choose. Instead of demanding to others to change so we can't be offended, better try to stop feeling offended in first place. It is clear that Nintendo doesn't want to cause harm, so please let the company have some artistic integrity.

Yes is all about your goddamn games right?

Layell · Nov 3, 2018

Jaibamon said:
If you don't like it don't buy it. Stop ruining my games by trying to police what I can play and how should I do it.

Jeez man we're saying one move is disrespectful.

For some context to those who have zero ideas on Native Americans, the fact is the "savage" stereotype was used for all of colonial history to enforce a genocide, rid them of their lands, traditions, and language. All stereotypes of them as simple people with feathers in their cap burning things down is completely not okay.

We can remove the face and hat and it will have zero effect on the game. In terms of racial stereotypes nobody is saying this is on par with some sports logos or film/tv depictions, but Native Americans and their allies need to aggressively fight back against any and all stereotypes that extend to the start of North American colonization.

DragonKeeper · Nov 3, 2018

Easy fix. Take the feather off. That's the part that really sells the silhouette as a stereotypical image.

Brewster123 · Nov 3, 2018

Has anyone tried getting this out to some of NoA's employees? I imagine Bill Trinen, if someone tweeted at him, could help get a change made (I don't have a twitter). They only have to change the one sprite, so I expect Treehouse could get this fixed pretty easily.

Red Arremer · Nov 3, 2018

Brewster123 said:
Has anyone tried getting this out to some of NoA's employees? I imagine Bill Trinen, if someone tweeted at him, could help get a change made (I don't have a twitter). They only have to change the one sprite, so I expect Treehouse could get this fixed pretty easily.

I tweeted it at Bill and NoA.

ikaben · Nov 3, 2018

At first I didn't get it, now after some post I think I understand the offence.

But, being all honest here, what I see is a collective effort to erase any mention (evidence) of racism in a country with an infamous past (or even present) minority issues.

People form the US can't really expect that Japanese devs and we foreign espectators have a clear picture of how things really are when there is a lot of offensive stereotypes still being used in your popular culture. I mean you can't really say that they sport an offensive stereotype, as in they know what the problem is and refuse to fix it.

I do hope they change it, tho.

AztecComplex · Nov 3, 2018

Syril said:
Like has been said they already changed Fire Attack's graphics when it was in Game and Watch Gallery 4 so I'd hope they'd do the same for this.

That settles it then. If they changed it on the Game Boy in the 90s there's 0 chance they won't in 2018.

ScreamingMadden · Nov 3, 2018

They need to patch that so its just plain old Mr. Game and Watch using a torch without wearing the feather. That's a reference that's best left in the past and not brought up today in a modern game.

AztecComplex · Nov 3, 2018

TheOGB said:
I understand the confusion. They're not saying the native Americans themselves are racist, but this depiction of them is. It probably should have read as "The old Game and Watch game Fire Attack saw a guy defending an old west fort against stereotypical Native American guys trying to burn the fort down."

I'll try to connect some dots here, bear with me. Basically, it's a stereotypical portrayal of Native American people that essentially casts them as backwards primitive savages. The game doesn't have cutscenes or anything to say this explicitly, but the imagery and premise are deeply connected to those racist ideas.

As Imran said in his post, the symbols and iconography of Native American peoples and their cultures are often taken out of context and used in tone deaf manners at best, and at worst are used to actively mock, demean, disparage, dehumanize, and oppress those same groups. It can look like those silly Halloween costumes, or Indian-themed casinos, or the sports teams Imran posted that have nothing to do with Native American people, but use caricatures/distortions of their symbols and icons to entertain and profit at their expense. Or it could be the tasteless use/bastardization of a war cry. On top of that, it's important to consider the context and history behind those depictions, a history that includes widespread displacement and genocide. Native Americans were by and large not asked kindly to join the expansion efforts of white settlers. Instead they were used, abused, and bullied out of their land and homes, because white people then saw them as different, as lesser. Distorted depictions of minorities affect how those minorities are seen and treated by the majority. "They look different, they act different; they aren't as smart, or advanced, or organized, or sophisticated. Their traditions and cultures are 'weird' and 'different'," etc. That's the kind of thinking that those stereotypes can reinforce. That's why those kinds of caricatures were and are harmful.

That's why that imagery is wildly inappropriate for this video game.

Thanks for that explanation.

One question: if there were so many non white native Americans living there "readily available to become salves" when whites arrived why did they bother bringing millions of blacks from Africa for enslavement? Or did they enslave Natives too?

I hear about blacks being slaves all the time obviously, but now that I think of it I've never heard about natives being enslaved.

Kouriozan · Nov 3, 2018

Nintendo is always sensitive about those stuff, it's going to be patched for sure.

Syril · Nov 3, 2018

AztecComplex said:
That settles it then. If they changed it on the Game Boy in the 90s there's 0 chance they won't in 2018.

Yeah, but in 2018 there's 100% chance that when they do it'll be accompanied by a swarm of angry "stop censoring i just wanna play videogames" videos and messages.

louisacommie · Nov 3, 2018

Wonder if it will be changed in the day
1 patch

Creation_Scapes · Nov 3, 2018

I'm sure they'll fix it.

Deleted member 17388 · Nov 3, 2018

There is also a sticker:

SinCityAssassin · Nov 3, 2018

Eh, it'll be patched out like inkling's arm taunt.

Cryptosporidium · Nov 3, 2018

AztecComplex said:
Thanks for that explanation.

One question: if there were so many non white native Americans living there "readily available to become salves" when whites arrived why did they bother bringing millions of blacks from Africa for enslavement? Or did they enslave Natives too?

I hear about blacks being slaves all the time obviously, but now that I think of it I've never heard about natives being enslaved.

The racism against natives is vastly different

To put it blunty

The english saw africans as subhumans

And they saw natives (it changed a lot) originally as the sons of god uncorrupted by technology, to savages, to then people who are equal to the brits but are held down because of their savage lifestyles

I think those are the big three transitions

Jessie · Nov 3, 2018

AztecComplex said:
One question: if there were so many non white native Americans living there "readily available to become salves" when whites arrived why did they bother bringing millions of blacks from Africa for enslavement? Or did they enslave Natives too?

I hear about blacks being slaves all the time obviously, but now that I think of it I've never heard about natives being enslaved.

Christians believed that black skin came from the Curse of Ham, and they were marked as slaves by God.

Regulus Tera · Nov 3, 2018

Grunge_Hamster said:
There is also a sticker:

What is Treehouse doing?

MrSaturn99 · Nov 3, 2018

Grunge_Hamster said:
There is also a sticker:

Hoo boy. Not a good look.

brainchild · Nov 3, 2018

AztecComplex said:
Thanks for that explanation.

One question: if there were so many non white native Americans living there "readily available to become salves" when whites arrived why did they bother bringing millions of blacks from Africa for enslavement? Or did they enslave Natives too?

I hear about blacks being slaves all the time obviously, but now that I think of it I've never heard about natives being enslaved.

From a logistical perspective, it would be more difficult to enslave indigenous people who knew the lay of the land far better than foreigners, as they would be able to escape and hide more easily and had the territorial advantage. With black slaves not having such advantages, they were far more practical prospects for the colonists to enslave. And acquiring black slaves to ship to America was as easy as a business transaction.

That isn't to say that they didn't attempt to enslave Native Americans, but they were far less successful at it than they were at enslaving Africans.

KRBM · Nov 3, 2018

Who's to say the feather hasn't already been patched out of the USA version? As far as I know we've only seen footage of it from the Japanese (Direct) and PAL (EU demo's) versions.

Zekes · Nov 3, 2018

SinCItyAssassin said:
Eh, it'll be patched out like inkling's arm taunt.

What's the arm taunt?

Apopheniac · Nov 3, 2018

Zekes said:
What's the arm taunt?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.po...ersion-1-1-patch-notes-inkling-girl-animation

ElBoxy · Nov 3, 2018

Grunge_Hamster said:
There is also a sticker:

Yikes.

Wander_ · Nov 3, 2018

I don't see any sort of racism?

it's a freaking videogame where everyone take punches from everyone, stop seeing conspiracy everywhere

Regulus Tera · Nov 3, 2018

Wander_ said:
I don't see any sort of racism?

it's a freaking videogame where everyone take punches from everyone, stop seeing conspiracy everywhere

Stuff can be anachronistically in bad taste without being ill-intentioned.

-shadow- · Nov 3, 2018

I personally as an outsider don't really see the problem with the depiction in itself. Much like how Mario wore different outfits and had locations depicted. I do understand that the source isn't really a good thing with the theme and the genocide. But wouldn't Smash be a good opportunity to give it a new meaning as a fun Smash move instead of having that G&W being the only one?

Zekes said:
What's the arm taunt?

Good in Japan, means something rather different here.

Velocity:Design:Comfort · Nov 3, 2018

Wander_ said:
I don't see any sort of racism?

it's a freaking videogame where everyone take punches from everyone, stop seeing conspiracy everywhere

Wow nobody cares what you think lol.

So many posters both admitting they aren't American and don't get it yet putting their foot in the mouth like their opinion matters about things they don't understand.

just look suspiciously confederate style flag in the original g&w game.

It's not that deep: In America it's racist to stereotype and depict native Americans as savages, Period. No one here is saying sakurai or Japanese people or Nintendo are actively maliciously racist but ignorance is pretty bad too.

Vesper · Nov 3, 2018

I honestly do not think this is going to get patched.

leder · Nov 3, 2018

AztecComplex said:
Thanks for that explanation.

One question: if there were so many non white native Americans living there "readily available to become salves" when whites arrived why did they bother bringing millions of blacks from Africa for enslavement? Or did they enslave Natives too?

I hear about blacks being slaves all the time obviously, but now that I think of it I've never heard about natives being enslaved.

IIRC the Spanish did enslave the natives but they died in massive numbers from western diseases. Africans were then brought over to keep their new world slave economies going.

AlecKoKuTan · Nov 3, 2018

Its sad how people come in here defending something they have no concept of. It isn't your culture that's being parodied, why do these people insist on defending this?

PSqueak · Nov 3, 2018

Xeontech said:
Is it the charicatures that makes this racist? Or the fact they're burning the fort? Cause the cowboy on the fort doesn't look any better/worse tbh. Honest question

The fact that is burning the fort.

TimeFire · Nov 3, 2018

Grunge_Hamster said:
There is also a sticker:

Yeah, it's probably not getting patched. Especially if this is won via Spirit Battle. I wouldn't put any faith in it.

eyeball_kid · Nov 3, 2018

Reggie, your body better be ready to go to the mat here and tell Nintendo Japan what's what. These lingering, offensive racist images need to be stamped out of Nintendo.

Berordn · Nov 3, 2018

Without any context it would've flown under the radar after a while, but the fact that they actually show the origin in the game is pretty problematic...

Xeontech · Nov 3, 2018

AztecComplex said:
Thanks for that explanation.

One question: if there were so many non white native Americans living there "readily available to become salves" when whites arrived why did they bother bringing millions of blacks from Africa for enslavement? Or did they enslave Natives too?

I hear about blacks being slaves all the time obviously, but now that I think of it I've never heard about natives being enslaved.

Natives were absolutely enslaved by western conquerors regularly. It's not paraded much in the history books, but it happened.

In the US, Johan Sutter in California was known to have a huge native slave force. There's a special hook he developed they put through nose of natives connected to chains to keep them from running.

There is an Native American Rock Opera called Something Inside Is Broken that went on tour last couple years specifically about native slaves.

I'm part native, and was part of the Rock Opera last year. I also find nothing racist about the cowboys and Indians parody here. If you look at the cowboy, it's exactly the same design. And there's nothing racist I could say about his design either. It's a parody. Taking offense to this is quite simply an overreaction.

Someone might be offended it's about setting a fort on fire, but no more so than shooting ninjas out of trees or beating tattooed white guys to a pulp in the city street.

louisacommie · Nov 3, 2018

Yeah I've heard of natives being enslaved before

Nightwing123 · Nov 3, 2018

I hope this ends up being patched.

Deleted member 5491 · Nov 3, 2018

Really hope NoA cathes wind of this and tells NCL about this.
Never knew that this was a thing on of the original G&W games.
Yikes

Deleted member 1570 · Nov 3, 2018

Mr. Game & Watch is my favorite character to troll people with (dat 9 hammer), but I won't be playing him in Smash Ultimate until they patch out that racist shit.

night814 · Nov 3, 2018

Green Slime King said:
Definitely not good. Just remove the feather like with the rerelease.

Yeah that's the only part that needs removed.

BaconHat · Nov 3, 2018

Regulus Tera said:
What is Treehouse doing?

Since the picture is from the japanese build based on the lower left text, it really does not say anything about any possible work treehouse did during localisation.

TimeFire said:
Yeah, it's probably not getting patched. Especially if this is won via Spirit Battle. I wouldn't put any faith in it.

It's getting patched. Nintendo has always shown themselves on point for stuff like this. Stuff like the music and shield in ocarina of time were changed due to similarities to religious songs and symbols, why would they not do it now when patching is as easy as ever?

brainchild · Nov 3, 2018

Xeontech said:
Natives were absolutely enslaved by western conquerors regularly. It's not paraded much in the history books, but it happened.

There was a relatively short period of time when this happened in the region that is now the US, but the Natives pretty much put a stop to that with the American Indian Wars. The lack of immunity to Western diseases made them poor prospects for enslavement, and the colonists eventually realized they were no match for the indigenous coalitions that had such strong local and territorial advantages.

Of course, it was a terrible thing that happened to the natives, and really even today Native Americans are treated as if they don't even exist, which is a real shame and something that needs to be rectified.

passepied joe · Nov 3, 2018

Am Mexican, most don't care about Mario wearing a sombrero lol

But yeah I can see why this G&W animation is a bit problematic

Weltall Zero · Nov 3, 2018

Velocity:Design:Comfort said:
It's not that deep: In America it's racist to stereotype and depict native Americans as savages, Period. No one here is saying sakurai or Japanese people or Nintendo are actively maliciously racist but ignorance is pretty bad too.

I guess the thing is that, at least speaking as an European, I don't see how burning down the military fort built on your land by a foreign invader intent on your eradication is being "a savage". The most questionable thing in that whole scene is that you play as (and therefore are implicitly rooting for) the invader (although in Smash it's the opposite: when you use that move you (briefly) play as the Native American).

I wonder if the issue is just that Americans (native or not) see it as depicting native Americans as murderous, while people from other countries see it as an act of self-defense against an invader?

Musubi · Nov 3, 2018

Syril said:
Like has been said they already changed Fire Attack's graphics when it was in Game and Watch Gallery 4 so I'd hope they'd do the same for this.

Now that is weird. If this was already something that had been on their radar in some capacity in the past but making it into smash?

lexony · Nov 3, 2018

What were they thinking?
They have to remove/change this animation until launch.

Super Smash Bros. Ultimate had an offensive stereotype regarding Native Americans (Update: Removed)

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