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Thousands protest in Pakistan over the acquital of woman who was on death row for blasphemy
- Thread starter AcademicSaucer
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It's all about women. If extremists and religions control women, they control families, children, education, reproduction, finances, the home in general and so on. To even begin to progress forward the women have to be liberated, educated, have equal rights and generally be free to live without being controlled and dominated. Either directly or through emotional and manipulative reinforcement. Control over their reproduction is paramount. Religions are incredibly psychotic around women even simply having control over their reproduction. Religions want the kids and they want to indoctrinate. If you aren't spreading by the sword, you are spreading by the seed. Education, enlightenment and women's reproductive rights are a threat to religious dominance because they may lift women out of subservience and importantly allow them to control their reproduction.
Unfortunately, through any process, many women are going to be beaten, raped, jailed and even killed by lunatic men who want to control and dominate them. Men will resist with violence to stop women challenging them or toppling their dominance hierarchy over them.
Many of the countries that are the worst govern by religious law, and that means men controlling women at the highest systematic level, the Government and legal code.
Men with "balls" take on other men as Hitchens would
Unfortunately, some men these days are cowards and can't figure out if they are arguing "in good faith" in support of women, or if it's more progressive to argue religious dogmatism is actually a woman's choice and therefore stacks higher to gain "progressive points". These women choose to be oppressed and controlled! These women choose to live potentially miserable and restricted lives! We must tolerate intolerance because of culture! How about you stop acting like a fucking coward and challenge the men systematically indoctrinating and controlling women. No one says you need to victim blame, but you can sure all hell challenge the men. Lifting people out of poverty even starts with women's rights, especially over their reproductive systems.
Women will continue to protest and try to assemble in support groups but are routinely in grave danger doing this in countries with religious law. Therefore a lot of this rests on the shoulders of men to sort out other men and we often don't do a great job of it.
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BBC News: Asia Bibi: Lawyer flees Pakistan in fear of his life
The lawyer representing a Christian woman acquitted of blasphemy after eight years on death row has fled Pakistan in fear for his life.
Saif Mulook told news agency AFP he had to leave so he could continue to represent Asia Bibi, whose conviction was overturned by judges on Wednesday.
Officials have since agreed to bar Ms Bibi from leaving Pakistan in order to end violent protests over the ruling.
Campaigners blasted the deal as akin to signing her "death warrant".
Asia Bibi was convicted in 2010 of insulting the Prophet Muhammad during a row with neighbours, and many are calling for the reinstatement of the death penalty following her acquittal.
Mr Mulook told the BBC earlier this week she would need to move to a Western country for her own safety. A number of attempts have previously been made on her life.
Several countries have offered her asylum.
Saif Mulook told news agency AFP he had to leave so he could continue to represent Asia Bibi, whose conviction was overturned by judges on Wednesday.
Officials have since agreed to bar Ms Bibi from leaving Pakistan in order to end violent protests over the ruling.
Campaigners blasted the deal as akin to signing her "death warrant".
Asia Bibi was convicted in 2010 of insulting the Prophet Muhammad during a row with neighbours, and many are calling for the reinstatement of the death penalty following her acquittal.
Mr Mulook told the BBC earlier this week she would need to move to a Western country for her own safety. A number of attempts have previously been made on her life.
Several countries have offered her asylum.
Why aren't they letting her leave? You obviously can't protect your citizen from a fucking murderous mob, so let her fucking leave.
Pakistan is full of medieval mentality people unfortunately. A lot of rural and village type people who live little lives.
The classical culture and upper culture of Pakistan (a lineage that goes back to the Muslim dynasties that ruled India) is beautiful and I admire it greatly. Great poetry, architecture, art, music etc.
Most food we know as Indian food is in fact just as much Pakistani food as it is Indian.
It's a shame that enough of that beautiful legacy isn't flowing through the cultural and memetic veins of society, and instead it's a Islamofacistic bigotry fuelled mess.
The classical culture and upper culture of Pakistan (a lineage that goes back to the Muslim dynasties that ruled India) is beautiful and I admire it greatly. Great poetry, architecture, art, music etc.
Most food we know as Indian food is in fact just as much Pakistani food as it is Indian.
It's a shame that enough of that beautiful legacy isn't flowing through the cultural and memetic veins of society, and instead it's a Islamofacistic bigotry fuelled mess.
WooooooowAlso don't forget when she was on Death Row in 2011 a Governor who sided with her was assassinated because he said the blasphemy laws take advantage of mob rule.
Here he is with Aasia Bibi:
Gov. Salman Taseer was assassinated on January 4th, 2011 by his own bodyguard Mumtaz Qadri.
Qadri was then seen as a hero by Islamists after he was hung for assassinating the governor.
Here's the funeral of the Assassin:
So other incidents where Muslims, in other countries, call for death of others for goofy reasons are also related to the Indian caste system?
Because craziness like this isn't exclusive to Pakistan.
Hard to believe that one aspect of the Indian culture affected Pakistan so much that they are willing to kill.
Because craziness like this isn't exclusive to Pakistan.
Hard to believe that one aspect of the Indian culture affected Pakistan so much that they are willing to kill.
Because a lot of the people that are in the system are part of that mob.
This is where you have to understand that the caste system has never been as straightforward as early European interpretations thought. There's also a chicken-and-egg thing going with caste most of the time. Is a janitor lower caste because he is a janitor? Or is he a janitor because he is lower caste? These things always depended on each circumstance.
There is of course, what DosaDaRaja said, where lower castes often converted to other religions to escape their caste restrictions (with various degrees of success). In these cases, upper caste opinions of them probably did not change at all.
In other cases, Muslims and Christians weren't considered to be of the untouchable caste, and were often more respect - but they were still considered impure and untouchable. What's important to understand here is that a lot of the times in South Asia, religious communities stick to their own communities. To get a grasp of how different these communities might be, read the full quote by Jinnah that I posted above:
Questionable as his decisions may be, Jinnah's observations of his time were right: 'religions' in India were virtually different nations that happened to share the same land. Inspired by the caste system, there was essentially an unspoken social contract that each religion will leave the other well alone (this obviously did not always happen, but that's a different story). So when my Hindu mother was advised not to drink at a Muslim family's house, it wasn't because my grandfather considered them to be of an untouchable caste, but of an untouchable community.
The whole concept of religions intermingling at a micro scale was only promulgated only be secular forces in the late 19th and 20th centuries.
These social norms were inherited by Muslims in India too (I would wager other religions too, but I honestly have never heard of any similar situations or cases with Christians or Sikhs), and have passed down to the Pakistan of today. That is why you end up with the water fetched by Bibi to be considered 'unclean', which you probably won't hear about in other Muslim countries.
Now as for those of you confused about how blasphemy comes in: the accusations levelled against Bibi are that she insulted Mohammed after the above incident played out. There are two completely different events involved. Only the first event, the whole water thing, is a South Asian cultural facet inherited from the caste system. The second, the whole blasphemy accusations, those can be found through a big chunk of the Islamic world.
A lot of people in this thread seem to be missing the fact that two separate things happened here. The first, in which the water that Asia Bibi fetched was considered unclean, that one is affected by the caste system. The second, in which Asia Bibi was then charged with blasphemy for insulting Mohammed and attacked by a mob for that same reason, is in line with the culture of some other Muslim countries.
What jeelybeans and I are trying to explain is that the first event, the whole water-is-impure thing, is inherited from the Indian caste system and is not found in other Islamic countries or cultures. To be clear Asia Bibi is not being targeted for offering water, she is being targeted for allegedly insulting Mohammed.
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User Warned: Inappropriate language
To be honest, it has nothing to do with islam either. These people seem to be retards. End of that.
There is nothing in islam about drinking water from non Muslim and, as a Muslim, I cannot comprehend anything of that.
If these people just scratch on the surface, they would perhaps see that. There are hundreds of cases and examples during the life of the prophet where he and his companions interracted with Christians. One of the first things Muslims are taught is the migration to Ethiopia because of persecution.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migration_to_Abyssinia
I'm questioning why you need to point this out - in any case her persecution is real and obscene.
Are you advocating war with a nuclear power that has hundreds of millions of people and is a historical ally? This thread lol...
Lol for a moment I thought they protesting to have a woman's acquital. I was like wow Pakistan, progress!
Then you read OP. Fuck this.
Then you read OP. Fuck this.
Because a lot of people in this thread don't seem to have their facts straight? I mean agree with you, it's a horrible situation what she's going through. But if you're going to analyse why it's happening at all, it's going to help to understand what actually happened instead of conflating all the details.
This is almost borderline victim blaming though - she was targeted out of her faith and minority status, not because she actually did something wrong.
The technicalities of her alleged wronging mean nothing in the context of a perverted justice system.
If she dies I hope people understand that her blood is fully on Imran Khan's hands. The government saying she can't leave anymore is basically a second death sentence.
Never said they weren't. I'm referring specifically to the behaviour of people like this mob. The treatment of Jews and Christians under Muslims then would constitute as oppression any which way you look at it. These protestors in Pakistan are even more batshit insane than those people in the past is what I'm saying.
That's not true. Imran Khan is failing his first test as PM. He always sort of sided with Islamists, but he also always held rule of law as Paramount. Which is why the corrupt officials are in tough spot in Pakistan since he got elected. Sadly, I think Imran Khan naively believes that the power of State is gonna protect her. He sees being unable to protect Aasia is failure of government on his part.
I know the current state of things have A LOT to do with external powers fcking things up( british & kashmir, russian afghan occupation, american saudi holy war complex against godless ussr...) and I love my pakistani peeps but I still think creation of Pakistan was a mistake
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This is only because of the leadership of the country does not care about the country.
Nothing is stopping Pakistan from being great...except for the people in charge.
Stating the facts is not victim blaming. There is a thing that the religious fanatics believe she did, and they are targeting her for it. Are those charges false? Yes. Is the blasphemy law obscene and shitty to begin with? It is. But to say she is being targeted solely for being Christian is ignoring the fact that the majority of people accused of blasphemy in Pakistan are Muslim.
I believe they said if they do that people will die, these extremist pieces of shit will start blocking roads, spreading misinformation about the courts and government being controlled by Christians and other conspiracy theory rubbish, and we know a simple what'sapp shared video can stoke up mob violence as we saw in India. The government is absolutely on this poor woman's side, and want to uphold the courts verdict, but feels like they're placating extremist leaders to calm people then send her to safety after the crowds have been subdued.
Plenty of Pakistani on her side, who see these extremist as a massive problem for the country .
Yep. The Information Minister explicitly said this:
Now, whether or not their actions are well founded, particularly given they may further endanger Asia Bibi's life, is another matter. But they are open about the fact this is to keep the rioting from getting worse.
You're ignoring the fact that religious minorities are often targeted through blasphemy laws.
Stating the facts can very much be victim blaming if you're trying to establish a cause of death as some sort of reasonable expectation within the frameworks of the "law"
You're being disingenuous if you insist that this is relevant to the discussion.
Man this pisses me off. So backwards, I hope she gets asylum to a different country...then as she leaves and the reporters have the camera turned. She takes one look back and gives the bird.
Okay look, let me recount the conversation a bit.
Someone commented on the water-is-unclean thing, and blamed it on Islam. jeelybeans replied that this has nothing to do with Islam, and is actually derivative of the caste system. He then got dogpiled on by people who didn't seem to understand the situation well enough. I brought up evidence that he is right, and further elucidated what is going on in this case.
A lot of people in this thread seemed to be under the impression that drinking water from a Christian is somehow illegal, un-Islamic, or is why Asia Bibi was put on death row. I'm just clearing up that that's not the case.
If you want to shit on Pakistan, be my guest. But I'm not about to encourage the spread of misinformation if I can help it.
The fact that Imran Khan's government caved in to them is so fucked up.
I hoped he would be the one to push back on bullshit like this from Pakistan's fundementalists.
I hoped he would be the one to push back on bullshit like this from Pakistan's fundementalists.
Looks like the PM got a taste of his own medicine with people now thinking shutting down the country over minor disagreements is a valid form of protest.
Not really as these are the kinds of men who pursue martyrdom as their way out. Meaning it will inevitably involve taking down innocent life with them when they act.
I know most are quoting that statement as dissent to say byebitch.gif but just remember it's not as if they are going to suicide just themselves. They'll attack with vehicles, weapons or bombs and take down innocent lives around them.
Also don't forget when she was on Death Row in 2011 a Governor who sided with her was assassinated because he said the blasphemy laws take advantage of mob rule.
Here he is with Aasia Bibi:
Gov. Salman Taseer was assassinated on January 4th, 2011 by his own bodyguard Mumtaz Qadri.
Qadri was then seen as a hero by Islamists after he was hung for assassinating the governor.
Here's the funeral of the Assassin:
Et tu, Mumtaz?
OP
OP
Aye. They're most likely not willing to die, it's just an exuagration to show how committed they are.
They capitulated entirely against actual mob violence and threats. The cause has just been reinforced with a clean victory, their attitude and cause will only get worse from this.
For the record, I think this is an insightful post.
Actually, it's the opposite, the perilous issue with martyrdom is you can find many men willing to die, as long as they manage to take others out. Take out the heretics. Spread your religion/beliefs by the sword.
Suicide is usually a grave sin within all religions, but martyrdom has been sold by extremists as your golden ticket to fame. So if you're a worthless cretin/excuse for a man, with no life prospects or decency around you, you can get your local or international fame, and approval in your Gods eyes, by being a martyr for the cause.
Many young men that get radicalized and think they have no prospects get allured to martyrdom. Some manage to follow through on it, because yes, even radicals can have their evolutionary roots attempt to resist them knowingly going to their death. So some might not follow through, but them spreading propaganda/rhetoric and radicalizing others is still a massive issue.
Most human beings don't want to die, hence why even many purposeful suicide attempts fail, as they can be calls out for help not truly wanting to die. But sell a grand tale of martyrdom, post-life fame, reward and so on, and you get what we have today. Lots of suicide attacks and people committing acts of terrorism they know if it's not death by suicide attack, at the end of it soldiers/cops/FBI or someone is still killing them.
The main goal here will be killing this one woman, so that could be attempted without a suicide attack. However, if anyone helps her/protests on her behalf it might escalate into larger scale attacks which often bring suicide bombings and what not.
When women are under the thumb as much as they are it really requires lots of men to protest and pushback too. Many men in patriarchal societies, especially theocracies, even if not always directly complicit, they still often sit back and do fuck all for change. Sure some might be scared, threatened or in danger too, but often men simply do not do enough. They might not be out killing/attacking random women, but they enjoy some of those other patriarchal "benefits" of suggesting/saying women are lesser than men, should obey men, should be segregated, should be covered up, etc.
edit: And before I get anyone saying #NotAllMen, yes, I know, many men around the world do protest and try to enact change. I'm simply saying the evidence shows often it's far from enough. And you can see yourself from the OP it's almost always exclusively men behaving in/leading these movements.
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This is awful. It sucks so bad that he's abandoning her. But if his own life is in danger.... I don't know if I can fully blame him. He has a responsibility to his client, but typically lawyers are not expected to be goddamn bodyguards who are ready to die for their clients either. Since she was already acquitted there was probably nothing else he can do for her anyway. :(
I don't blame him at all. Have you seen the mobs?
What is the lawyer going to do? He did his job in getting her acquitted of the ridiculous charge. He shouldn't he to lose his own life for it.