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Smiles

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,897
I never said Twintelle was following the "sepiroth" stereotype (that may be older, not sure since I don't have an encyclopaedic knowledge of anime tropes) that was just Elma. While she definitely clearly has some ganguro influence I would lean on that more as a small part of the design rather then the pure purpose which has a lot more going on.

Elma's dark skin is in my opinion there to introduce her as an outsider and foreshadow what you learn later. The white hair is the "swords person " stereotype and the ganguro influence just brings it together.

As for Twintelle. The ARMs team was clearly inspired by a lot of 1950s/60s Americana aesthetics but then updated with a modern twist. IE Twintelle is a Monroe type but representative of 2017 where a tan/mixed race person is the global standard of ideal beauty. Her curves/body type with defined muscular arms have been streamlined to be more in line with a modern fitness model (ideal beauty). It's a great design.

However this is true of most ARMS characters with Min Min's sandy haired blonde girl looks evoking the Sandra Dee/Gidget look from the 1960s but then updated with a more extreme martial arts/athletic/edgy look reminiscent of Faith Conners (Mirrors Edge 2008) where the dragon arm looks like a sleeve tattoo

Ribbon Girl is your quintessential all American cheerleader with a pop star twist, and Spring Man is practically Paul Walker in pleasantville but with blue hair. It has much more in common with western bubblegum pop trends then anything else (and it looks great)

I did not say that was what you said about Twintelle I said I am not sure if Twintelle does not fall under the same trope. You are clearly looking at the characters in ARMS much deeper though and you make your point well as to where you think Twintelle got her looks. The same way you have a different perspective on where Elma's looks came from. Your ideas on how those looks came to be are just as reasonable as anything I could argue.

I just have my own perspective and my own desire and hopes for where those looks came from. I don't like people dismissing Elma's blackness but every time I see the white hair on dark skin in Japanese creations I always feel it is a subtle dismissal of blackness to me. She really was not created for me my mind tells me, but I dream up that nah she is black. Thus the issue and the topic of this thread.

LikeRagnarokX posted above people tend to need a very darkskinned clear depiction of people of color so there can't be any guessing or doubt they are black or brown while Elma is clearly more subtle, I feel know what those artists wanted because I am a painter/artist myself and I feel I can guess the intention but I can still be wrong about Elma. Elma did not have a Japanese name in the JP version of the game normally that is a clue if another intention was the goal.

New Los Angeles and United States of America tells me Elma was clearly going for a Black Woman in the Lore of the game regardless of the spoiler she made a choice, that cooked and ate and live their lives in that game in those bodies. It was not fashion but a life and survival thing. Elma resonated with me. Would I have liked to have Elma without the white hair and more of an Afro to make it less subtle yeah. But does she work as a black woman? I think so. Do I feel some people might feel less inclined to support her as a hero of the game if the subtleness was not a huge part of her looks? I'm not that naive I think the whole white/hair dark skin thing works just as well on non-blacks as it does on me. A non-black person might just see Elma as something else. It is art and marketing, sales and profits first. It is easy to have another perspective on subtle things. I don't really agree that only the darkest skinned characters like inRagnarokXpost or DOC Louis as the only correct way to represent blackness or browness.

This is a topic the gaming community needs to talk about we have to look how the game has been played and see the subtleness at work. It may not be as innocent as most of us would want to think it as being.
 
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shauntu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
324
Robin is another one...

How many women are in Smash a Bros?

Let's see
Peach
Daisy
Samus
Dark Samus
Zelda
Isabelle
Bayonetta
Paletena
Lucina
Rosalina

Choose a woman

Inkling
Villager
Pokémon Trainer???
Corrin
Mii Fighter

It's still kinda lacking sadly but at least it's not like a couple choices.

I will not be shocked if Elma gets in since Xenoblade needs a new rep and she's the most well known character from XCX.

Twintelle can happen still luckily

Doc Louis would be a weird Fighter(since he's retired isn't he in terms of punch out lore?) but ehh Smash Bros has plenty of those(I mean we have a plant as a Fighter now so why not bring old man Doc outta retirement).

Rodin would be an excellent choice.

What would Impa be considered(not early Impa the Impa now)?

There has to be an F Zero character that is mixed right?
 

PSqueak

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,464
Agent Morris from Elite Beat Agents

v6b2krn.gif

Even when people are trying to expose the representation in the game, everybody forgets about Agent Spin :C

vrU8NFC.jpg


He was my fave of the leader EBAs.
 

dreamlongdead

Member
Nov 5, 2017
2,641
Well there are black and brown people who look like Twintelle so I don't know what to tell you. My wife is predominantly African American and no one ever believes that because she has "white features". Statements like yours are part of the problem.

You don't get to speak for what constitutes black representation for everyone. It's best if you focus on what represents you.

My intention isn't to speak for others. Everything I've been saying is clearly my opinion.

I do find it interesting that Smiles, one of the very few in this topic who has openly stated he's black, apparently does not see Elma or Twintelle as black to the degree that many others here do.
 

jdstorm

Member
Jan 6, 2018
7,565
I did not say that was what you said about Twintelle I said I am not sure if Twintelle does not fall under the same trope. You are clearly looking at the characters in ARMS much deeper though and you make your point well as to where you think Twintelle got her looks. The same way you have a different perspective on where Elma's looks came from. Your ideas on how those looks came to be are just as reasonable as anything I could argue.

I just have my own perspective and my own desire and hopes for where those looks came from. I don't like people dismissing Elma's blackness but every time I see the white hair on dark skin in Japanese creations I always feel it is a subtle dismissal of blackness to me. She really was not created for me my mind tells me, but I dream up that nah she is black. Thus the issue and the topic of this thread.

LikeRagnarokX posted above people tend to need a very darkskinned clear depiction of people of color so there can't be any guessing or doubt they are black or brown while Elma is clearly more subtle, I feel know what those artists wanted because I am a painter/artist myself and I feel I can guess the intention but I can still be wrong about Elma. Elma did not have a Japanese name in the JP version of the game normally that is a clue if another intention was the goal.

New Los Angeles and United States of America tells me Elma was clearly going for a Black Woman in the Lore of the game regardless of the spoiler she made a choice, that cooked and ate and live their lives in that game in those bodies. It was not fashion but a life and survival thing. Elma resonated with me. Would I have liked to have Elma without the white hair and more of an Afro to make it less subtle yeah. But does she work as a black woman? I think so. Do I feel some people might feel less inclined to support her as a hero of the game if the subtleness was not a huge part of her looks? I'm not that naive I think the whole white/hair dark skin thing works just as well on non-blacks as it does on me. A non-black person might just see Elma as something else. It is art and marketing, sales and profits first. It is easy to have another perspective on subtle things. I don't really agree that only the darkest skinned characters like inRagnarokXpost or DOC Louis as the only correct way to represent blackness or browness.

This is a topic the gaming community needs to talk about we have to look how the game has been played and see the subtleness at work. It may not be as innocent as most of us would want to think it as being.

The whole feeling like you need to second guess yourself because you aren't sure if something is actually there or just you projecting is something that I can greatly empathise with.

I have been having those conversations with myself a lot recently (although it unfortunately more about a real person then art/fiction)

I get and appreciate your point about subtlety in art and both sidesism. However for Elma and Twintelle I don't think applies.

For Elma because Monolith Soft is a developer who has previously been without AAA expectations (although that is changing fast) and tends to wear its heart on its sleeve and create from its own self interest. The rare blades in XC2 particularly the controversy surrounding the main characters is solid evidence to support this opinion.

As for Twintelle, from my understanding she was heavily inspired by an actual person (a French actress) and the Sanfransokyo meets retro Americana vibe of ARMS was just as much a happy accident caused by a talented creative team given almost free reign on a new IP.

However personally I think understanding the building blocks of the "happy accident" and why it works is interesting
 

malyse

Community Resetter
Member
I do find it interesting that Smiles, one of the very few in this topic who has openly stated he's black, apparently does not see Elma or Twintelle as black to the degree that many others here do.
Weak. And subtly disingenuous, though questionable enough to be unintentionally.

By the adjacent, there's a whole black community right here on Era! I find it interesting how many of the posters there have also posted in this thread. Striking.

You might want to write this next part down: Black people are not a monolith.

-----

On an unrelated note (or mayhaps slightly related):
people who try to discount Elma being a minority because she's really a pale alien missed the whole fucking point that she's a minority because she's the only one of her species and her experience as a black woman are almost if not completely analogous to the way a white majority treats minorities entering their spaces
 
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Deleted member 46641

User requested account closure
Banned
Aug 12, 2018
3,494
Elma seems to be the most likely DLC candidate.

Also, this thread brought up Tetra. It really sucks how when Tetra turns into Princess Zelda she just becomes white. With that and Hyrule Warriors especially, Zelda doesn't have the best handling of race.
 

malyse

Community Resetter
Member
Elma seems to be the most likely DLC candidate.

Also, this thread brought up Tetra. It really sucks how when Tetra turns into Princess Zelda she just becomes white. With that and Hyrule Warriors especially, Zelda doesn't have the best handling of race.
Cia was some bullshit. Between that and Kingdom Hearts Darkness makes you black, I was mighty displeased.
 

Smiles

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,897
The whole feeling like you need to second guess yourself because you aren't sure if something is actually there or just you projecting is something that I can greatly empathise with.

I have been having those conversations with myself a lot recently (although it unfortunately more about a real person then art/fiction)

I get and appreciate your point about subtlety in art and both sidesism. However for Elma and Twintelle I don't think applies.

For Elma because Monolith Soft is a developer who has previously been without AAA expectations (although that is changing fast) and tends to wear its heart on its sleeve and create from its own self interest. The rare blades in XC2 particularly the controversy surrounding the main characters is solid evidence to support this opinion.

As for Twintelle, from my understanding she was heavily inspired by an actual person (a French actress) and the Sanfransokyo meets retro Americana vibe of ARMS was just as much a happy accident caused by a talented creative team given almost free reign on a new IP.

However personally I think understanding the building blocks of the "happy accident" and why it works is interesting

It will be interesting to see how Monolith/Nintendo react to the loud voices that hated how Pyra looked as fanservice as she was. I am a Pyra fan but I can also see why people had some issues with the sexy stuff.
That is pretty much the same issue as this topic when you think about it, we are just asking our fantasy hobby to be more representative of how our world is going #MeeToo or #BlackLivesMatter and other things.

It is a hard thing to ask for your entertainment and fantasy hobby to change but those changes do matter. Maybe I like Pyra because I like fantasy boobs over going to pornhub for real exploited women. But I can still understand why people pushed back so hard on Pyra.

Elma and Twintelle and alike just feel good to see because my skin is black and I like seeing and playing as people I can imagine relate to me even if my mind is only pretending that she is black when it was just a tan or something.
It means a lot to me seriously. I like racing games the best mostly because I rarely have to feel left out about not being represented in some way.

Are Japanese developers and artist going to care about how I feel about wanting Elma to be a black woman? Maybe not. In the same way I am not sure they have the same issues with sexualizing female characters that most had with Pyra.

Like I said I really like Pyra. And I know some women who were born with even more size to their tops and are fairly okay with having large boobs, they might not see Pyra the same negative way and can relate to her but the Japanese who created Pyra did not create her for her to be relatable to large breasted women. So we choose these sides of an issue and we relate with or fight for something different.

I think in the end what matters most is who is being left out to please your perspective of things. Who does it hurt to have more Black characters in Smash, or what serious damage to women kind did Pyra create because of her shape size and outfit. Those are all topics we had many times before and hope the devs are paying attention to the concerns.

What will Nintendo do? What will Monolith do next time?
 
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MysticGon

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 31, 2017
7,285
This is a problem Nintendo has in general I feel. But then again I honestly don't get upset when I watch anime, considering where it's made. But when I do see good representation I'm pleasantly surprised.
 

Platy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,703
Brazil
Even when people are trying to expose the representation in the game, everybody forgets about Agent Spin :C

vrU8NFC.jpg


He was my fave of the leader EBAs.

Morris is my personal choice because his hair (both head and facial hair) are just so stylish. But yeah, any non white dude EBA would have worked as long as the others are in the skins.
 

TwinBahamut

Member
Jun 8, 2018
1,360
I dunno, Elma just doesn't really come across as black imo. Her skin tone is within range of Japanese people and he features seem more Asian. Dark skin and light hair is pretty popular in Japan
and her mimiosome is basically a fashion choice for her.
The thing about Elma is that she has the same hair color and skin tone as Chaos from Xenosaga. And Chaos wasn't meant to be a dark-skinned Asian. He was either Middle-Eastern or African. To be more precise...

Chaos was originally someone living in Israel during the lifetime of Jesus Christ. He is thus either a dark-skinned Middle-Eastern Jew, or someone from a nearby region like Egypt, the horn of Africa, or the rest of Arabia.

A similar-looking character to Elma is Soma from the God Eater series, who is the child of a white German father and black Middle-Eastern mother.

Alternatively, you can look at members of the Karaya clan in the Suikoden series. Many of its members have light hair, others have dark curly hair, but as a whole they have dark skin and are clearly intended to be based on African tribes.

Often, dark-skinned characters really are meant to be black.
 

Watchtower

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,652
It's a shame Code Name STEAM didn't sell well, cuz it has some good ethnic diversity.

VjhmjmQ.jpg

John Henry: American Folk Legend

lUCOAjW.png

Tiger Lily: Native American from Peter Pan

FkljJIe.png

Queequeg from Moby Dick

llyBNzi.png

The Fox: Female version of Zorro

TGTSVhH.jpg

Queen Califia: Queen of the Amazons

Code Name STEAM is one of those games that looks extremely promising and boasts a ton of creativity and potential and would fit perfectly in a game like Smash....but will never actually be in Smash because it sold poorly and no one cares about it.

Real damn shame.
 

Kinanza

Member
Jun 25, 2018
577
Out of all of the characters so far Elma seems to have the best bet of joining. We may not have Rex, but so help me Sakurai cannot skip on Xenoblade X
 

ShinNL

Banned
Nov 27, 2017
389
Making jokes and comments about non-human characters being examples of black characters due to stereotypical features is both racist and dismissive of the issue of media representation. Any posts that cross this line will continue to be moderated appropriately.
I agree jokes are inappropriate, but I do like to voice my opinion on representation. And I feel like I have to care with thread while the pro force are allowed to shout from their lunges (basically, censoring)

Do you state that dismission of media representation in games is a racist argument by itself? Or a bad thing to do in general?

See, as a Chinese living in mostly white towns in the Netherlands (never caring for communities nor seeking for racial communities) I feel like I'm completely Dutch. If there are any other minorities around, everyone treats that person as Dutch first as well. However, if someone suddenly brings up race and asks me the same questions I've heard over ten thousand times like where i am from (born in the Netherlands), if I eat dogs (no, I'm raised in the Netherlands), how it is like in my parent's hometown (how do I know that, I live here) I feel isolated. So for me, I much more prefer the no-color approach as there is absolutely no room to brew any racism, whereas color differentiation can brew problems. If there are kind hearted color differentiation, there are also ill intended color differentiation.

This leads me to Smash. I just see game video characters. Media representation is the last thing on my mind. Why is bringing up colors a thing? Before this thread, I literally didn't even remember what color each character was. For me it's a game characters representation. Why does it have to be about race?

For me, someone who doesn't care if a game is full white, full asian or full black, bringing up race sparks the same fear as when someone starts pointing out I'm that one Chinese guy or someone starts pointing out that one of my colleagues is that one black guy. So I feel that forcing media representation as a valid argument and censoring those who oppose it more as an enemy to race neutrality than those who dismiss it. That's my view due to my background as living as a minority.
 

Ghost305

Banned
Jan 6, 2018
775
What brown/black character do you know from Nintendo/3rd party that actually deserves a spot in Smash over anyone else?

Equality and all that is cool.. but you are being ridicolous here. First we actually need black/brown characters to be important and have more main roles and then we can talk about a spot in Smash.
Agreed. This is a problem that lies outside of Smash's control, and more with gaming as a whole.

If more IP's had significant PoC characters that fans enjoyed seeing, that would warrant their inclusion in crossovers like Smash. I think most would be disappointed if, for example, Sakurai made Doc Louis playable instead of Little Mac (the more popular character) just to get the PoC count up.
 

Regulus Tera

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,458
Sooo the Smash thread discovered this:


Good news, the stream archived immediately so I could skim the footage

bad news:
f9WxEsF.png
wjJX8uV.png


While not necessarily specific to the thread title in question, I think it's related to how Nintendo of Japan is out of touch with the West regarding certain ethnicities.
 

Smiles

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,897
It would be nice if they stopped giving porn artists free reign for character design for a start.
to be fair I doubt Monolith had ever had so many quest artists and most manga and anime artist do hentai on the side because that is how they pay the bills while waiting on projects, this Xenoblade 2 was a perfect storm of perverts
 
Oct 25, 2017
10,767
Toronto, ON

Boze Man

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,387
Bozeman, MT
I wonder how much it would cost to get licenses for Mike Tyson or Ken Griffey Jr as DLC? Both have Nintendo history and would be awesome additions to the roster.
 

brainchild

Independent Developer
Verified
Nov 25, 2017
9,480
I'm not sure what I'm missing here, maybe because it's blurry and the characters just look like smudges. In the first, Mr. Game and Watch is holding a torch (?) and in the second he's getting attacked by Dedede?

Does his face here suggest racist old cartoons in a way?

It's a direct reference to the original game and watch game where you defended your turf by killing native americans...
 

ToddBonzalez

The Pyramids? That's nothing compared to RDR2
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
15,530
Yeah. Unfortunately it's reflective of Nintendo's lack of black/brown characters over the course of their history. Though I do agree there's a few choices they could have gone for like Twintelle, Urbosa, etc. At least Ganondorf's there...
 

choodi

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,589
Australia
The game may not have many black/brown characters, but the roster does have a diverse cast of races and colours.

There are multiple Italian and Japanese characters, the Ice Climbers are Inuit (correct me if I have used the wrong term here) there are plenty of generic characters where you can pick skin tones. Gannondorf is definitely representative of the middle east and I can only assume the Belmonts come from eastern Europe. The number of western European white characters are actually pretty slim and that's including the characters whose race is somewhat ambiguous.

One of the problems that this forum has is viewing the majority of diversity-related topics through US-centric eyes and applying US race relations to the broader world.

Growing up in Australia in the 1980s, I was subjected to racism, called a wog (short for golliwog) and told to "go back to your own country". I was born in Australia, but my ancestry is Greek, and it was made clear to me that Greeks, Italians and other southern Europeans were not "white" and that we were "not real Australians".

So, to me, the fact that Mario is southern European definitely represents diversity in the cast and I love it. I am sure all of the east Asian migrants/minorities in "Western" countries are very happy with the east Asian representation in the game too.

Would it be good for Nintendo to further broaden their roster? Yes, and they are doing it.

If you don't think ARMS and Splatoon (and the diversity each of those games brings) are the future of Nintendo characters, then you haven't been paying attention.

Are the ARMS characters ready for Smash? Not yet, but let's see where they take the franchise. No chance they are finished with it yet.
 

EdgeWilder

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
871
I'd love to have the main character from Ever Oasis in Smash he looks cool and demo was fun surprised no one has brought him up
ever-oasis-box-art.jpg
 

RagnarokX

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,782
I did not say that was what you said about Twintelle I said I am not sure if Twintelle does not fall under the same trope. You are clearly looking at the characters in ARMS much deeper though and you make your point well as to where you think Twintelle got her looks. The same way you have a different perspective on where Elma's looks came from. Your ideas on how those looks came to be are just as reasonable as anything I could argue.

I just have my own perspective and my own desire and hopes for where those looks came from. I don't like people dismissing Elma's blackness but every time I see the white hair on dark skin in Japanese creations I always feel it is a subtle dismissal of blackness to me. She really was not created for me my mind tells me, but I dream up that nah she is black. Thus the issue and the topic of this thread.

LikeRagnarokX posted above people tend to need a very darkskinned clear depiction of people of color so there can't be any guessing or doubt they are black or brown while Elma is clearly more subtle, I feel know what those artists wanted because I am a painter/artist myself and I feel I can guess the intention but I can still be wrong about Elma. Elma did not have a Japanese name in the JP version of the game normally that is a clue if another intention was the goal.

New Los Angeles and United States of America tells me Elma was clearly going for a Black Woman in the Lore of the game regardless of the spoiler she made a choice, that cooked and ate and live their lives in that game in those bodies. It was not fashion but a life and survival thing. Elma resonated with me. Would I have liked to have Elma without the white hair and more of an Afro to make it less subtle yeah. But does she work as a black woman? I think so. Do I feel some people might feel less inclined to support her as a hero of the game if the subtleness was not a huge part of her looks? I'm not that naive I think the whole white/hair dark skin thing works just as well on non-blacks as it does on me. A non-black person might just see Elma as something else. It is art and marketing, sales and profits first. It is easy to have another perspective on subtle things. I don't really agree that only the darkest skinned characters like inRagnarokXpost or DOC Louis as the only correct way to represent blackness or browness.

This is a topic the gaming community needs to talk about we have to look how the game has been played and see the subtleness at work. It may not be as innocent as most of us would want to think it as being.
Please don't misrepresent me. I was not saying I don't think Elma's black because "her skin color is too light". I simply feel she comes across more as Asian, and she doesn't give much to go on. I don't think her specific race is clear-cut to the degree of certainty other than not white. The tone I got from New LA was like America through a Japanese anime lens. Like America where most people are asian anime characters. It's weird. Originally the main city was going to be New Tokyo but they changed it to New LA. New LA was going to be a second Colony that crashed on Mira. Apparently they kept New Tokyo and it still crashed on Mira, but it's only mentioned. Remember Elma didn't just work with the US. The whole world came together and built arks. New LA is just where Elma ended up when the arks crashed on Mira after the space battle where she got separated from her co-pilot.

I just posted black characters I like and think would make good Smash reps. That they had dark skin was a coincidence. Disco Kid from Punch Out has lighter skin but I wouldn't pick him. Doc Louis is iconic.
 

Smiles

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,897
Please don't misrepresent me. I was not saying I don't think Elma's black because "her skin color is too light". I simply feel she comes across more as Asian, and she doesn't give much to go on. I don't think her specific race is clear-cut to the degree of certainty other than not white. The tone I got from New LA was like America through a Japanese anime lens. Like America where most people are asian anime characters. It's weird. Originally the main city was going to be New Tokyo but they changed it to New LA. New LA was going to be a second Colony that crashed on Mira. Apparently they kept New Tokyo and it still crashed on Mira, but it's only mentioned. Remember Elma didn't just work with the US. The whole world came together and built arks. New LA is just where Elma ended up when the arks crashed on Mira after the space battle where she got separated from her co-pilot.

I just posted black characters I like and think would make good Smash reps. That they had dark skin was a coincidence. Disco Kid from Punch Out has lighter skin but I wouldn't pick him. Doc Louis is iconic.

thanks for clearing that up it was not my intention to misrepresent you posts.
 

louis89

Member
Jun 11, 2018
69
Tokyo
Another one. Static shock did it to me too.


I'm not sure what to say but good for you? Everyone doesn't feel the same way as you do. Some of us need that extra factor to enjoy and appreciate something more. I love Zelda and I love Link, he's my favorite video game character but how cool would that be if he was black? Yet I promise you if Nintendo made him black, these crazy "gamers" would have a shitstorm and complain, petition and do whatever they can to boycott the game. This is just an example of how we are treated through cosplay, videogames, movies. I think you should be a little more appreciative because you need to be represented and if not you there are many others that wish to feel included. I dont think this is the kind of thing to say oh it doesn't affect me so its fine. Obviously a lot of us aren't that affected because we still buy the game but you should still feel the need for other people. To deny or ignore or even hand wave isn't fair. The fact that people say, be a mii or a color swap is sad when they're full blown, front and center characters.

Well, I think that people who care deeply about this are a small minority, and I believe that I represent the majority on this.
 

APZonerunner

Features Editor at VG247.com
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
1,726
England
Also, Ryu in most games he's brown skinned, but on smash they made his skin color more white.
maxresdefault.jpg

I'm all for Smash needing more diversity (I'm pulling big-time for Twintelle and Urbosa, DLC-wise), but let's be fair here: Ryu is Japanese, but he has a tan skin tone because the whole point of his character is he wanders the world alone, doesn't have a home, and thus spends loads of time up mountains, out in the sun, training. He's just tan because he's always outside. Also, to be fair to Smash: the more tan Ryu was something that developed in the series, so he really only gets the tan look with 3rd Strike onwards. If you look at the SF2 sprite, which Smash is based on, he's paler. Even Capcom know this - in the 'retro' Street Fighter 1 Ryu costume in SF5, he has a lighter skin tone. This has always seemed deliberate to me, like the older Ryu gets and the more he commits to his wandering master lifestyle the more tan he becomes, as the Street Fighter Alpha prequel series sprite is even lighter-skinned than the SF2 one.

Also, characters that are tan really don't count in this discussion anyway imo, as surely people are talking about representation of different ethnicity. There are arguments to be made about Ganondorf, as obviously the Gerudo have always been a Middle Eastern analogous race in Zelda, but Ganondorf himself has always been a weird one. Especially in a post-TP world, as in TP they gave him this sickly, unrealistic, fantasy grey skin-tone, and that's leaked into every version of the character since. I feel like the one in OOT had an off-colour grey tint but was still recognizably 'of colour' in a real world sense, but recent interpretations (including the Smash version of the OOT design) have him with that same weird grey/green off-colour - and when you compare that to the skin colour of characters like Nabooru or Urbosa you see why people don't necessarily identify with it, as it's more like a Lord of the Rings Orc fantasy skin colour.
 
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maneauleau

Member
Oct 25, 2017
244
Netherlands
PlatinumGames has several black characters that Nintendo can use:
Rodin
Loki (from Bayonetta 2)
Wonder Black.

I would love all these above with Elma and Twintelle.
 

LemonLime

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
325
Absolutely agree that this is a problem. I'm all for thr inclusion of more diverse characters. However, I do not think this is a problem with smash, but smash just reflects the greater problem within the industry. Smash is a game with a roster entirely made up of iconic characters from various gaming franchises (mostly Japanese ones at that.) And unfortunately, at this point in time, there don't seem to be many iconic dark skined characters that meet the supposed "criteria" to be in smash. Let's hope that this issue gets resolved in the future!
 

Parfait

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
580
Shantae could have been one easily. Twintelle not being in is a bad look at ARMS, she'd be a great fit. Urbosa, heck yeah. Elma... maybe if X was rereleased in time, but it won't be.

Im unfortunately struggling to find more good, popular examples that would fit, though. So there's 4 of your dlc done, when's my paycheck?
 
Oct 27, 2017
42,700
No, even though she is again another of the many representations of White Hair on Black Skin created by Japanese artists just like Elma and Twintelle
I still had to look Shinobu up from the list provided in this thread before. No More Heroes has a good fan buzz but seriously this is not Assist Trophy level.

If this is what people think black folks would like the represent them, I not buying that. We do have to seriously have a talk with Japanese creatives about where the White Hair / Black Skin meme comes from we give a pass to these creatures as one of us but I feel like it is a safe trope not really going into blackness out of fear. Because when you explore these creations deeply enough they are more or less just another Japanese representative they are rarely African.

I think you're getting way too bent out of shape with the "white hair" thing. Japanese even like giving ethnically Japanese characters non-traditional hair colors (and I don't mean crazy colors, but blond/brunette) which is why there are always so many arguments about anime characters being Japanese or white. Either way, Western artists do the same, with the biggest example being Storm from Xmen who we know is Kenyan, but has white hair for...reasons.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,378
Making jokes and comments about non-human characters being examples of black characters due to stereotypical features is both racist and dismissive of the issue of media representation. Any posts that cross this line will continue to be moderated appropriately.
The fact that this needed to be said in the first place.....

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TheModestGun

Banned
Dec 5, 2017
3,781
Knowing how out of touch Nintendo is as a developer and a company in general. I fear this will likely be a permanent problem for them.

I'd love to be proven wrong but I get the sense that Nintendo isn't a company that thinks deeply about racial representation. Maybe someday.