Let's just take a moment to appreciate BOTW not taking forever to start

I never managed to power through Twilight Princesses intro, and heard that Skyward Sword was worse, so I've never even played that one. Those two games effectively killed 3D Zelda games for me, so yeah, I completely agree. Such awful design. BOTW was an awsome return to what made the series magical back in the 8-bit era, but reimagined for a modern platform. Leaving the starting cave felt like the game opening up and giving you free reigns.

I really appreciate it, but the budding love story at the beginning of Skyward Sword was the best part of the game. It went downhill after you jumped down.

Eh. I like slow starts, slow doesn't mean not fun.

apocat said:

I never managed to power through Twilight Princesses intro, and heard that Skyward Sword was worse, so I've never even played that one. Those two games effectively killed 3D Zelda games for me, so yeah, I completely agree. Such awful design. BOTW was an awsome return to what made the series magical back in the 8-bit era, but reimagined for a modern platform. Leaving the starting cave felt like the game opening up and giving you free reigns.

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I totally agree. It's fine to make the mistake once with TP, but then doing it again in the next installment? WTF were they thinking!

That's why BotW is so important for the Zelda series. They improved a lot of aspects with this game.

TP and SS were fun from the start to me. Both were great in letting you get a feel, introduce new mechanics and care about the characters.

Maybe a bit slow and tedious, but definitely not unfun.

Eh. BotW still traps you on the Plateau to do tutorial stuff. Speed Runners take as long to get off it as they take to get off Skyloft, but Skyward Sword tells a much better story. Technically within about 10 minutes in Skyward Sword you have a sword and are off adventuring through caves fighting monsters if that's your bar for "starting".

apocat said:

I never managed to power through Twilight Princesses intro, and heard that Skyward Sword was worse, so I've never even played that one. Those two games effectively killed 3D Zelda games for me, so yeah, I completely agree. Such awful design. BOTW was an awsome return to what made the series magical back in the 8-bit era, but reimagined for a modern platform. Leaving the starting cave felt like the game opening up and giving you free reigns.

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Skyward Sword is not worse than Twilight Princess. It's shorter and tells a good story. All of the tutorial stuff is optional and nothing feels like its just there to waste your time like TP's intro.

I really appreciate games that start right away with no tutorials.

BigTnaples said:

Eh. I like slow starts, slow doesn't mean not fun.

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Shhhh, that's not the point of this low key RDR2 sucks topic.

The Argus said:

Shhhh, that's not the point of this low key RDR2 sucks topic.

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Was thinking the same lol

takriel said:

I totally agree. It's fine to make the mistake once with TP, but then doing it again in the next installment? WTF were they thinking!

That's why BotW is so important for the Zelda series. They improved a lot of aspects with this game.

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But they didn't do it again.

TP feels long because it makes you do a bunch of mundane tasks and sends you through the same area 3 times in a row. It's very long for the amount of story it conveys. It establishes Link's life as a ranch hand, his relationship with the children, etc. But none of that really goes anywhere or is really that important to the rest of the game.

SS on the other hand is much shorter and every part of it feels necessary and well-paced. It establishes Skyloft and Link's relationship with Zelda and Groose. All of these things are very important for the whole game and it handles it in a decent amount of time.

Yeah I do really love that. The game could do with explaining some things much better, but that opening was sublime.

I thought old Zelda starts were terrible, until I played Xenoblade Chronicles 2. If it wasn't for forums and Reddit, there's no way I would've pushed 10+ hours to finally then start enjoying the game. Saving grace is that the fun factor keeps growing in XC2, but old 3D Zeldas with it's linear setup just limits the amount of endorphin release too much and thus is unenjoyable for me.

The Argus said:

Shhhh, that's not the point of this low key RDR2 sucks topic.

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You're the only person to mention RDR2 in this thread. If you don't like the slow start to that game, then feel free to make a thread.

I definitely liked BotW's beginning, but I also didn't mind Twilight Princess's intro either. In fact, I loved all those early cutscenes in TP--I had been waiting for years to play through it, and it was the first game I played on my brand-new Wii!

I feel TP did a good job of world building and showing the relations Link had with the other people in his hometown--before the Twilight starts ruining things.

I just think TP and BotW had two very different approaches. Twilight Princess wasn't truly open-world like BotW is, which also probably contributes to the way the game starts. I never played Skyward Sword. I'm sure we'll see future Zelda games take more of the BotW approach.

RagnarokX said:

But they didn't do it again.

TP feels long because it makes you do a bunch of mundane tasks and sends you through the same area 3 times in a row. It's very long for the amount of story it conveys. It establishes Link's life as a ranch hand, his relationship with the children, etc. But none of that really goes anywhere or is really that important to the rest of the game.

SS on the other hand is much shorter and every part of it feels necessary and well-paced. It establishes Skyloft and Link's relationship with Zelda and Groose. All of these things are very important for the whole game and it handles it in a decent amount of time.

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I have to echo the sentiment that SS at no point reaches the insane amount of tedium and snail pace people need to endure to get things going on TP.

TP's first 3 or 4 hours are really something else, and I played through that game at least 3 times, every time I confirmed it sucked ass, hard.

but I'd put up with it because the game really shines when you reach Arbiter Grounds/Ice Mansion, counting just from that point on, the game is 10/10

VDenter said:

Uh, i did not even play RDR2 yet (Not enough time currently) In fact just like BOTW have avoided nearly all pre release info about it.



I don't consider Skyward Sword to really start until the first dungeon. Even when you land in the woods the game still has to teach you how to aim and put markers on the map and it's all done with the slowest text speed imaginable. Oh and the filler side quest where you have to go find X number of those forest creatures is so mind numbing. Skyward Sword just sort of pretends that it starts. Fi alone does everything she can to interrupt your progress constantly. Oh and that's another thing BOTW did absolutely right and that is getting rid of the pointless companion. Skywards Sword having a good story is a bit of a stretch. Story 's a low bar when it comes to the Zelda series.

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You have to find 3 Kikwi. It's basically the same thing as finding the 4 shrines on the plateau and serves the same purpose. In SS, impa tells you how to use beacons and then you have to find 3 Kikwi. Along the way you learn new mechanics naturally. In BotW the old man tells you how to use beacons and then you mark the 4 shrines on your map. Along the way to reaching them you learn new mechanics naturally. Zelda interrupts you several times.

VDenter said:

The massive difference there is that outside of the old man interrupting your progress about two or three times total, that's literally all the time that you waste. The text in BOTW also moves at a acceptably quick pace so it never feels agonizing to sit through. The forest area in Skyward Sword came after a two hour long tutorial section and to still have Impa,Fi and that big Kikwi dude interrupt you instead of letting you figure basic things out on your own is infuriating.

The great plateau was masterfully executed. It was a decently sized sandbox to ease you naturally into the mechanics and structure of the game before letting you off to explore the entire world. Because it rarely interrupted you and rarely forced you into a linear path it never felt tedious, it gave you more than enough things to play with until you tackled the game proper.

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How the hell did Skyloft take you 2 hours? Skyloft should only take you 1 hour casually and characterizing it as "a tutorial section" is bs. It has tutorials but all of them are optional. It spends most of your time on story and character development, which it does very well and is an area BotW is sorely lacking in. I never felt like my time was being wasted like in TP.

Sphinx said:

I have to echo the sentiment that SS at no point reaches the insane amount of tedium and snail pace people need to endure to get things going on TP.

TP's first 3 or 4 hours are really something else, and I played through that game at least 3 times, every time I confirmed it sucked ass, hard.

but I'd put up with it because the game really shines when you reach Arbiter Grounds/Ice Mansion, counting just from that point on, the game is 10/10

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With just some stupidly inventive and fun dungeons.

As much as I liked the involved combat of Skyward Sword, and love (from the ten hours I've played BotW on my bros Switch) BoTW's beautiful, expansive, living world; Twilight Princess just has the most engaging, clever dungeons of the series.

I pretty much love all of the 3D Zelda's though. But they really did tend to botch the beginnings. SS had the better of the prior three 3D Zeldas... but the beauty of BotW's tutorial Great Plateau is that it is so expansive in and of itself.

It never really feels like the game is instructing you how to play, instead just letting you play. WW, TP, and to a lesser extent SS still feel like you're being carefully directed in how each mechanic works, instead of letting you experience it, and potentially fail all on your own.

Damn I love this series.

Dr. Mario said:

I really appreciate it, but the budding love story at the beginning of Skyward Sword was the best part of the game. It went downhill after you jumped down.

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Lol. Not gonna lie, Skyloft was the best part of Skyward Sword. It was such a homely place with so much to do in the way of side quests and lovable characters to interact with. I didn't wanna leave.

FantasticMrSnake said:

I really appreciate games that start right away with no tutorials.

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That's really not BOTW, though. The entire Plataeu is one big tutorial.

It's a tutorial done right, which is pretty rare these days. Honestly one of my favourite tutorial sections.

I know, I was saying in general...
At least BOTW is minimalist-ish about it, but not perfect for me

Yeah it was perfect, hope they keep it like this forever!

Plateau was perhaps the best tutorial I've played

Definitely love how freeing the game is only a couple of minutes in. The "tutorial" feels very natural, as if you are playing the game (as opposed to playing a tutorial). I think that is the big difference between BotW and the previous Zelda games. They all have tutorials, BotW just does it in a way that feels natural.

Actually. I like games more that starts slowly.

One of the reasons I love Kingdom Hearts 2. It builds up the story in a better way for me.

trugs26 said:

Definitely love how freeing the game is only a couple of minutes in. The "tutorial" feels very natural, as if you are playing the game (as opposed to playing a tutorial). I think that is the big difference between BotW and the previous Zelda games. They all have tutorials, BotW just does it in a way that feels natural.

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Natural is probably a good way to describe it.

My issue with the prior games was it was almost like they had an itemized list to check off "Mechanics gamer absolutely MUST know" and ticked the box along the way.

The Argus said:

Shhhh, that's not the point of this low key RDR2 sucks topic.

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The start of RDR2 is pants on head though.

I know it's popular to dislike BotW right now, but the first 10 hours alone secure it as one of my favourite games of all time.

But BotW never really starts, lol. It's such a clusterfuck in terms of story, characterization and "dungeons". There is nothing to start, just a playground with the same 5 monsters and their boring reskin variations.

I started rdr2 yesterday abd after taking 3 hours for rdr2 to get to chapter 2 and to the fun part I had exactly the same feeling. botw had the most perfect tutorial for a video game

The Argus said:

Shhhh, that's not the point of this low key RDR2 sucks topic.

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lol do you feel personally attacked when someone is criticizing a video game? the best part is OP didn't even talk about rdr2

VDenter said:

No game should take 2-4 hours to finally start being fun!

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Is this a hidden "RDR2 is not fun because starts really slow"?

Jokes aside, i dont have problems with games starting slowly.

Yeah I agree. I remember a preview/review alluding something to this effect not long before the game releasing which was exciting, about how they were thinking of starting the game over in order to do some things differently and they were genuinely surprised at how they were able to reasonably consider that as an option without hating themselves for having to go through an awful opening couple of hours again. Safe to say that definitely was something that most people would agree with- I've played the game twice and on both occasions the Great Plateau was very enjoyable.

The great plateau was 3 or 4 hours of bad fetch quest crap. I didn't like BoTW and a large part of that was how unenjoyable I found that stupid glider fetch quest crap

I was watching a speedrun of zelda SS that took over 5 hours. Yikes that game has too many cutscenes.

FantasticMrSnake said:

I really appreciate games that start right away with no tutorials.

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Yeah the magic is you don't see the tutorial. When a game starts telling me what every button and button combination does... meh.

I actually really like slow starts. When Twilight Princess accelerated the rate you were finding dungeons about midway through I was actually a bit disappointed. I enjoyed the slow pace and the epic feel of the journey.

Radishhead said:

I know it's popular to dislike BotW right now, but the first 10 hours alone secure it as one of my favourite games of all time.

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cowbanana said:

But BotW never really starts, lol. It's such a clusterfuck in terms of story, characterization and "dungeons". There is nothing to start, just a playground with the same 5 monsters and their boring reskin variations.

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Spooky lol. These 2 comments back-to-back like this are amazing.

I don't mind slow starts. But the fast beginning of BOTW is the reason I have like 6 saves and continue to start new playthroughs. It's so quick and immediately gives you plenty of freedom that it's really refreshing.

100% agree.

I let the kids at school play on my switch during reward time. Every time they'd pick 'Mario & Rabbids' and every time they'd get bored before the opening cinematics are over.

It's only 5 minutes... can't imagine their reaction to a game like Twilight Princess lol

They now pick BotW every time

BigTnaples said:

Eh. I like slow starts, slow doesn't mean not fun.

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I don't. And it often does.

I particularly dislike intros with overbearing handholding at repeated playthrough.
Generally speaking a good test for a developer should be to try to "speedrun" across their own introductory sequences several time and check how much they can shorten the process and how infuriating it can be to endure the mandatory roadblocks.

I often found the "tutorial" part of Dark Souls 1 absolutely brilliant in that sense: it gives you all the basic while still being "action packed" enough, but an experienced player in particular can skip through it in seconds.

Admittedly BoTW goes close enough to that formula, aside for few mandatory chokepoints before letting you leave the Plateau.

I liked the slow start to Twilight Princess. Unlike BotW there's more of a narrative in TP and the village setting does a lot to set up all the characters and everything. I think Link ends up having more of a personality and backstory as a result compared to BotW where he's pretty bland. I was definitely more emotionally involved with the things that happened in TP's opening than BotW. BotW was a fun playbox for sure but there was nothing else. The rushed plot dump the king gives you at the end doesn't really motivate me to head out on my adventure the way Twilight Princess gives you a slice of Link's life and the people he cares about and then takes them all away giving you strong motivation to head out into the unknown.

I also disagree that TP doesn't start until the first dungeon. TP starts from the beginning. It doesn't even take an hour of gameplay before you're running off into the woods to fight monsters, getting turned into a wolf and exploring a ruined Hyrule Castle, meeting Midna and Zelda, having to sneak through your town when everyone is afraid of you, collecting the tears and getting the tunic... I can't think of a Zelda where so much craziness happens so early on.

A lot of stuff happens very fast in the first 2-3 hours of the game but the way some people talk about it, it sounds like you're herding goats for 5 hours. I know the tutorials could have been less rigid but it was the Wii era and the way they contextualized it in the story worked really well. I liked seeing Link as this figure in the village all the kids look up to and the adults all rely on.

Droyd said:

100% agree.

I let the kids at school play on my switch during reward time. Every time they'd pick 'Mario & Rabbids' and every time they'd get bored before the opening cinematics are over.

It's only 5 minutes... can't imagine their reaction to a game like Twilight Princess lol

They now pick BotW every time

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Twilight Princess isn't a pick-up-and-play game. It's not a reward time break type of game to just play in tiny bursts. BotW is much better suited to that than TP. I don't think that makes one inherently better than the other though. They're different things. TP is a game I play when I want to sit down and enjoy a big adventure.

I love BOTW and Skyward first hours for differents reasons but yeah BOTW did a much better work even at being a more complex game.

Now I bought Okami recently on Switch and damn THAT is a slow start!

Dr. Mario said:

I really appreciate it, but the budding love story at the beginning of Skyward Sword was the best part of the game. It went downhill after you jumped down.

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I would agree if they did anything with it afterwards. There's so little interaction between Zelda and Link after Skyloft that it's honestly not worth the boredom of the first few hours.

The prior 3 3d zelda games has HORRIBLE game design

It's most definitely appreciated.

Some directors at Nintendo have this idea that habd holding and overly linear, slow, vague intros are good to ease new players in, but it's the opposite. They turn people off and are completely unengaging. Pokemon still suffers from this.

It's like they forgot the good game design that resulted in the classic games of nes and snes era.

Botw is a much needed return to form.

It was one of the only things I liked about BotW.

The overly long intro/tutorial sections of TP and SS turned me off those games immensely and were part of the reason I got about 4-5 hours into those games before dropping them. I'm just done with Zelda games despite loving them growing up.

Yes i agree. I never finished twilight princess because of that dumb ass intro that took forever. Everytime i wanted to start it over again that intro would turn me off.

I just don't even want to play through Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword anymore because of their long, boring ass intros.

At least let me skip all the dialogue like Okami did.

Breath of the Wild's intro was such a breath of fresh air after those two. A 2 minute intro then it just drops you into the world.