It's a joke on an old Tumblr meme about Aladdin's skin changing over the course of the film but the one example coming from some hentai stuff
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Smash Ultimate has 74 Characters, yet lacks Black/Brown characters (READ OP)
- Thread starter Deleted member 4976
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User Banned (2 Weeks): Racist trolling, history of severe infractions.
While it would be cool to have one, i dont need one just for the sake of it.
Also Meta Knight is black.
Also Meta Knight is black.
No, even though she is again another of the many representations of White Hair on Black Skin created by Japanese artists just like Elma and TwintelleDissapointed we got this far and no mentions of Shinobu
I still had to look Shinobu up from the list provided in this thread before. No More Heroes has a good fan buzz but seriously this is not Assist Trophy level.
If this is what people think black folks would like the represent them, I not buying that. We do have to seriously have a talk with Japanese creatives about where the White Hair / Black Skin meme comes from we give a pass to these creatures as one of us but I feel like it is a safe trope not really going into blackness out of fear. Because when you explore these creations deeply enough they are more or less just another Japanese representative they are rarely African.
Not even going to spoil who Elma really is but it is the same idea we as black folks have so little to choose from we give a pass to anything with darker skin tones, yet it is hard to find a character that was really written for us that plays a large enough role to be iconic enough not to be ignored for the roster of Smash again the best bet for that is still those Nintendo promoted not that they fit Africans or Brown folks but because Nintendo created them and we need to make them be more mindful of why Elma was created that way and why Twintelle and Marina needed to look the way they do. Maybe once we have those answers they can see that they need to do more to best represent PoC not just a Sexy Hot Black girl but someone with more meaning.
Elma is a badass but lets add a great point here
That is the best reason for Elma being cool, she resonates more than any of these others because of the point malyse made, it might not have been intentional but the whole game is about many kinds of beings coming together it makes sense on a lot of levels. That is why out of any old as blackness type a Japanese artist might want to create Elma means a bit more.
I am sure vestan listed many badasses in this list https://www.resetera.com/posts/14510782/ but as list goes it just makes clear that there is an issue here, and posting some old stereotypes of PoC in gaming is not a solution the the problem the OP is getting at but a serious part of the issue.
Not really into NMH don't really see why she would make it in before Travis, she was what, another Travis' girlfriends and mentor? I never played it so I asked @Vastan to make a case for his list. Is there a quality that Shinobu has that would fit Elma's spoiler?
At least Elma was on her box art if you squint lol Shinobu only seems to be on the box art for a PS3 game NMH Heroes Paradise. This is still Smash so I'm just saying a strong Nintendo impact should be the focus for looking for a PoC rep.
Shinobu is just someone's dream list out of every possible PoC character ever created does not mean she fits Smash if we are trying to push Nintendo for diversity it should start with what they put out and promote as their own IP.
Some of the listed are just sad because the truth is we don't really have many PoC created in a way you'd feel proud to play as if your skin tone matched them
John Henry from Codename STEAM
Agent Morris from Elite Beat Agents
Michaela from Style Savvy
Doc Louis (a stronger but slower Little Mac Echo)
hell, even the Rhythm Heaven wrestler would fit
Just saying not many of these are really flattering to PoC, they are funny, they amuse. Comic relief is all good but Nintendo has some work to do. None of these should be a main fighter without feeling mighty suspect that someone is trying to belittle what I am really asking for.
This is bad because you have to reach deep to get them to represent PoC they were never meant to be. They have lore and history so this would not be cool at all to point at them and say problem solved.I mean, if you're talking skin color, Little mac is definitely brown
Also, Ryu in most games he's brown skinned, but on smash they made his skin color more white.
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As a person who played NMH, I gagged a little at the thought of Shinobu being Travis's girlfriend. She's like 16 in NMH 1.
Shinobu is just a badass take no shit character.
Making jokes and comments about non-human characters being examples of black characters due to stereotypical features is both racist and dismissive of the issue of media representation. Any posts that cross this line will continue to be moderated appropriately.
Don't take my words as my truth/belief I was just reading up on who she is and Wikia says
Relatives "Master" Jacobs (Father)
Travis Touchdown (Self-Proclaimed Mentor/Love Interest)
http://nomoreheroes.wikia.com/wiki/Shinobu
They also said she's 18 but that could just be wrong or another of those JP vs EU or NA versions
not the greatest choice for a source, wish I played the game.
If a black woman wants to make a case for her I would not argue against that since you played the game and have a better feel for what the character represents.
We're not a monolith, you know. And I certainly wouldn't be against the inclusion of such a character.
What needs to stop is this notion that black people have this super high standard of what counts as a PoC. We want representation across the entire spectrum of physical traits and skin tones because we exist along the entire spectrum of physical traits and skin tones. Nobody needs to be excluded, we need more inclusion.
Okay so to be clear: she tried to kill Travis in the first game, but instead of killing her (like he does every other boss) he just cut off her arm. In the second game she's infatuated with Travis but it's not mutual and I'd be hard pressed to call it "love"; it's more fascination with this goofy weirdo mixed with trying to understand him ("what does 'moe' mean?"). She does take a pass at him but he turns her down because weird.
Also (and very important), Shinobu is voiced by Kimberly Brooks
I respect the point you are making here, let me be clear and only speak for me, it is not about high standards it really should not even be a group thing it is an individual thing so you are right in that, Kanye West does not represent me in some ways so as a black man there are some characters I just would not promote as my representative.
I am just talking as an older black male, we are not all just one voice. What might not work for me might be perfectly fine for another black man my age. The issue here is we don't have much at all to choose from. Inclusion should not mean accepting old racial stereotypes. Race is a difficult topic there are so many ways to offend, I think this is one of the main reasons developers do not tackle black stories. Who would you have to hired to make an Epic Wakanda game? A lot could go wrong with that if Marvel just wanted to cash in and get someone to push out a game for it. There was so much work put in to get that film right that it made a whole group of people very proud to see it.
CREED an excellent film for a Rocky spin off. Gaming has never really tried that hard to represent PoC. There are things I can be proud off and there are things I'm going to feel weird about. It is not an easy issue inclusion could easily mean allowing white folks to wear blackface on Halloween. We are all free to do these things but someone is going to feel a way about it.
Not really black, though. More dark-skinned Asian.
For the next Metroid rep Anthony wouldn't be a bad choice. He was a pretty cool character and deserves more love outside of Other M.
Oh I have no problems with your personal criticisms about the lack of representation. I completely understand where you're coming from. I just felt the need to interject because I really want to dispel this idea that all black people want the same kind of representation when that couldn't be further from the truth; we don't all look alike after all, as I'm sure you know.
Okay so to be clear: she tried to kill Travis in the first game, but instead of killing her (like he does every other boss) he just cut off her arm. In the second game she's infatuated with Travis but it's not mutual and I'd be hard pressed to call it "love"; it's more fascination with this goofy weirdo mixed with trying to understand him ("what does 'moe' mean?"). She does take a pass at him but he turns her down because weird.
Also (and very important), Shinobu is voiced by Kimberly Brooks
That is a far better argument for Shinobu than just being listed which is all I was asking for since I did not play the game.
And the VA is even more a rare thing that should happen more often.
While to IP is returning to Nintendo for more titles if Shinobu is still part of all that I can't say I could argue against the character even when I get salty about White Hair/Blacks in Anime/Manga.
The voice acting is enough of an effort to me, not many devs/publishers make that effort, I would welcome her in there based on that alone.
I would drop Twintelle for Shinobu after your post for sure. Maybe we will get NMH ports to the eShop.
Twintelle and Rodin would be fantastic additions.
Sakurai pls, the latter is such a waste as a mere assist trophy.
Sakurai pls, the latter is such a waste as a mere assist trophy.
I'm sure he has already been mentioned but, Ganondorf (in his human form of course!) is definitely not white or Asian. He's brown or black.
Twintelle would've been the one to go for a black woman to be included but she's a spirit so that ain't happening. Maybe we'll get Ming Ming (the Asian noodle fighter)!
This is just a reality of how gaming is. Most of Smash characters hail from 30 years ago when female leads were rare let alone POC. Smash is a symptom of the environment and is what it is.
Also, I know this is about black or brown but Smash does have at least a good number of Asian representation so there's that.
Twintelle would've been the one to go for a black woman to be included but she's a spirit so that ain't happening. Maybe we'll get Ming Ming (the Asian noodle fighter)!
This is just a reality of how gaming is. Most of Smash characters hail from 30 years ago when female leads were rare let alone POC. Smash is a symptom of the environment and is what it is.
Also, I know this is about black or brown but Smash does have at least a good number of Asian representation so there's that.
This is something you'd have to deal with when it comes to Shinobu and the many white haired black folks Japanese artist create. The Question is were they created for us in mind or just as a cool addition to flesh out a world and lore for a story. Black Samurai is a real black historical thing so I think you can claim any black sword carrying Japanese Creation :). And I am Haitian so I claim Naomi Osaka as one of my people although she is clearly representing Japan in her tennis matches.
Sadly this is also the case.
Having said that if Ice Climbers could get it in 2001 I don't see why Twintelle couldn't get in 2018 but I see your point.
Ice Climbers are the main character from their game. Twintelle isn't the main character from ARMS, who would arguably be either Spring Man or Ribbon Girl.
This choice only bugs me because he has always been shown as a trainer in a boxing game. If we had one scene of him a flashback as a boxer it would not bug me as much.
Putting characters from non-fighting games into the fight is kinda cool, no one expects anyone from Animal Crossing to fight.
But a character from a fighting game as old as Punch Out and you never gave him a chance to shine as a respected fighter is harder. Maybe there is a flashback or a lore of Doc as a fighter I may have missed but it just does not sit well unless someone shows it to me and sells me on it.
This isn't really true of Twintelle though. Her hair isn't white, it's rose/blonde which was/is a popular hair colour amoung famous women many with dark skin going for an updated version of the 1950's/60s Maralyn Monroe "pin up model/movie star" look recently popularised by celebrities such as Nicki Minaj and Rita Ora.
As for Elma. (Who is just a fantastic design in general) it's clear that her hair is meant to evoke the "Silver haired Swordsperson" stereotype popularised by Sepiroth and copied/continued ad nauseam ever since (looking at you Riku, Jin, WonderBlue amoung many others)
Sure but also Ice Climbers was a very very crappy and forgotten arcade and NES game from 1985. That was 16 years before Melee. That's what I mean. If a couple of forgotten characters from a shit game can make it so could one from a brand new and very recent new IP that's a million seller!
Fuck Ice Climbers (the actual game). Perhaps Nintendo's worst video game of all time. Maybe.
It was in the instruction manual for NES Punch Out, but Doc is a former champion.
I dunno, Elma just doesn't really come across as black imo. Her skin tone is within range of Japanese people and he features seem more Asian. Dark skin and light hair is pretty popular in Japan
and her mimiosome is basically a fashion choice for her.
While true, the follow-up question is...who do you choose?
There's Elma, there's Twintelle, there's Impa.....could throw in an Octoling, though given the avatar nature I know it doesn't really count.....and I've run dry. Pull back to the third-parties in-game, and unless we really push Shantae, I'm still running dry.
That's not to say that this isn't a problem, it certainly is. However, the problem far transcends Smash Bros, and is more indicative of Nintendo as a whole, and to some degree of Japanese gaming as a whole.
There's Elma, there's Twintelle, there's Impa.....could throw in an Octoling, though given the avatar nature I know it doesn't really count.....and I've run dry. Pull back to the third-parties in-game, and unless we really push Shantae, I'm still running dry.
That's not to say that this isn't a problem, it certainly is. However, the problem far transcends Smash Bros, and is more indicative of Nintendo as a whole, and to some degree of Japanese gaming as a whole.
Twintelle should be in this because she's the only ARMS character that I can even remember the design of, and that game needs a full-on representative.
Being a Spirit don't rule you out from being playable. For reference, Peach, Ridley, King K. Rool, & Male Wii Fit Trainer all have Spirits despite being playable. They're basically the new trophies, which also didn't rule out a character from being playable (see Mewtwo & Lucas in Smash Wii U/3DS).
I am not sure I buy that Twintelle does not fall under the influence of the same white haired/black person thing that has been going on in Manga/Anime you might say it is from Sepiroth, I really don't know who started it but I read Bleach and Naruto and they had the same stuff going on with dark skin white haired people.
Not sure Monroe, Nicki, or Rita, had that much impact on Japan's art in such ways. I've seen these things in manga for a while no one seems to have put a name on it.
The Ganguro Fad was there long before those white hair things tho and I would have given them the credit for this trend instead of any of the above https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ganguro
this is nothing any boxing trainer has not done those are the brown trainer gloves we see in many films. That animal print ending made it much worst, you'd have to be an old black man to know why that is bad. Please don't put him in that would just be bad really bad,
For obvious reasons I wouldn't complain, but 95% of Smash community would.
now you are just trolling me, I can't take you seriously with that one since Lin was in NLA with Elma there is a huge difference between the two choices made.
Queen Califia: Queen of the Amazons
Incidentally also voiced by Kimberly Brooks.
It doesn't take away from the fact that in-universe he was a former heavyweight champion. Which, incidentally, is info you asked for.
I never said Twintelle was following the "sepiroth" stereotype (that may be older, not sure since I don't have an encyclopaedic knowledge of anime tropes) that was just Elma. While she definitely clearly has some ganguro influence I would lean on that more as a small part of the design rather then the pure purpose which has a lot more going on.
Elma's dark skin is in my opinion there to introduce her as an outsider and foreshadow what you learn later. The white hair is the "swords person " stereotype and the ganguro influence just brings it together.
As for Twintelle. The ARMs team was clearly inspired by a lot of 1950s/60s Americana aesthetics but then updated with a modern twist. IE Twintelle is a Monroe type but representative of 2017 where a tan/mixed race person is the global standard of ideal beauty. Her curves/body type with defined muscular arms have been streamlined to be more in line with a modern fitness model (ideal beauty). It's a great design.
However this is true of most ARMS characters with Min Min's sandy haired blonde girl looks evoking the Sandra Dee/Gidget look from the 1960s but then updated with a more extreme martial arts/athletic/edgy look reminiscent of Faith Conners (Mirrors Edge 2008) where the dragon arm looks like a sleeve tattoo
Ribbon Girl is your quintessential all American cheerleader with a pop star twist, and Spring Man is practically Paul Walker in pleasantville but with blue hair. It has much more in common with western bubblegum pop trends then anything else (and it looks great)
this is still my problem with it, he is was always just a fat black guy. They did not give in the same props you would see in Apollo Creed, Doc just does not resonate as a respected fighter, he is Lil Mac's trainer.
Had they had a simple flashback for the man giving him his due respect he would have my vote as a fighter in Smash. Coming from a fighting game himself having that respect as a fighter is important. If he came from a cooking game or something having him in Smash as a fighter would not bother me at all. He is a representative of the work Nintendo has done with little care. If someone said Iron Mike Tyson I would say hell yes because that was Lil Mike's final boss in some version of the game regardless of all the crazy shit the man did in his life as a rapist and all, you can't question he was a fighter. DOC was a silly joke and I don't feel any respect for him as a fighter.
No one said that they didn't want Twintelle or other suggestions in this game. They seem like good characters who clearly have a positive reception. I have nothing against them.
I take issue with the fact that some characters are seen as black or brown people, because I don't think it's accurate.
This notion that people like me are looking for stereotypes is silly, and some posters have made crazy claims against me.
Nintendo is simply lacking Black and Latino characters, and that is why Smash has a huge racial diversity problem among the human combatants.
It is up to the gaming audience to decide if they're OK with that. I think it would be a good for Nintendo and companies in general to have more racially diverse characters.
Yeah, I've voiced this concern before. My thread unfortunately got locked, because it was deemed unnecessary to talk about it outside of the Smash OT.
In general, Nintendo lacks black and brown characters, but they do have a few.
Elma, Twintelle, uh.... Anthony Higgs? And one of the Splatoon 2 characters.
They just need to put them in the game.
In general, Nintendo lacks black and brown characters, but they do have a few.
Elma, Twintelle, uh.... Anthony Higgs? And one of the Splatoon 2 characters.
They just need to put them in the game.
I love this thread it's doing a public service of weeding out all the jackass's. Also 100% convince Little Mac is Puerto Rican my head canon
Well there are black and brown people who look like Twintelle so I don't know what to tell you. My wife is predominantly African American and no one ever believes that because she has "white features". Statements like yours are part of the problem.
You don't get to speak for what constitutes black representation for everyone. It's best if you focus on what represents you.
Considering that they've brought in a lot of 3rd party characters it shouldn't be that hard to have more than 1. Especially since the only one they have is evil. You can even play as a plant.
Why is there only one asian character? Really weird.
Why is there only one asian character? Really weird.