amazing UT genocide ending / deltarune theory...
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Toby posted a small FAQ, he has confirmed that the Deltarune is in a way completely independent of Undertale so you don't need to think much about a relation between the two worlds, however you'll understand better why people were freaking out if you play undertale first,
Fascinating.
Megaton if true.
Would this mean Papyrus is not his biological brother then?
There's something really sad about seeing that even in an alternate universe where both of their children are still alive, the Dreemurrs are still something of a broken family. It's almost worse seeing it here because at least in Undertale you knew the circumstances that led to it which made it pretty understandable. Talking to Toriel and to people in the restaurant you really get the sense of how close Kris and Asriel were without even any of the negativity from their Undertale counterparts. People in town mention Kris being creepy, but there's nothing to really indicate how far that goes back. It's hard to shake the feeling that Kris is just having a really hard time coping with how much their mom hates their hates their dad for seemingly no reason and how much they miss their brother.
AHHH! FINALLY
I don't even want to know how many attempts he took me... But things did go more smoothly this time, that night of sleep really helped. I still stand by my opinion that he's incredibly tough though, I truly had less issues with Genocide Undertale. His bullet patterns still confuse me.
Anyway, never doing that again! Unless I have a reason to when the rest of this releases in 7 years of course.
I don't even want to know how many attempts he took me... But things did go more smoothly this time, that night of sleep really helped. I still stand by my opinion that he's incredibly tough though, I truly had less issues with Genocide Undertale. His bullet patterns still confuse me.
Anyway, never doing that again! Unless I have a reason to when the rest of this releases in 7 years of course.
This begs the question
Is it possible that Kris made that cage for their heart/soul so it doesn't hurt that they're so alone without Asriel and with their parents split?
You're not alone!! I thought exactly the same thing! I was happy about that too, I loved BoF III's soundtrack, so once Deltarune's battle song kicked in for the first time I had a big smile on my face.
I believe Toby has mentioned his love of Breath of Fire before, so probably a direct inspiration.
Looking forward to giving this a try this weekend!
Question: any Temmie sightings in this one??? =D
Question: any Temmie sightings in this one??? =D
Do we know what determines
the way he king is defeated? My second time around he just fell asleep, which surprised me because it feels like a worse ending and I can't think of anything I did to trigger that one. I know this won't really matter, but I wanted to say goodbye to everyone on my Jevil save... :(
Yeah I assumed as much, but that's the thing. As far as I can tell I made nice choices, and both breakthroughs were pacifist runs.
Nah, I was thinking the same thing. Glad it wasn't just me who noticed.
Just bought the soundtrack on Bandcamp.
1- Because it's fucking good.
2- Because it's an understatement to say the Toby deserves this, he fucking gave the game for free, I feel like I owed him a solid.
1- Because it's fucking good.
2- Because it's an understatement to say the Toby deserves this, he fucking gave the game for free, I feel like I owed him a solid.
So my theory is that the ending is a red herring
So, this might be a slight stretch but hear me out. I don't think that's necessarily chara at the end. Or at the very least, I don't think it was a teaser for him to go out on some murder spree. Why? Because there's a few things in his room and dialogue that might suggest otherwise. Let's make note of some things first. If you read the wagon's text, it says that it's quite beaten up with dents from years of use. The birdcage is already there and opened before the ending scene. There's a red stain on the floor which i'm 99% sure is blood. Toriel tells you not to eat the whole pie in the middle of the night again. Toriel mentions how you use to wear horns to be more like everyone else.
Now, i'll try and explain why these things are related. In the ending cutscene you slam your heart/soul into the birdcage with such force it almost tips over. Going back to the denting text for the wagon, I doubt this is the first time you've ripped your heart out and that's why the wagon is so beat up. This would also explain the blood stain on the floor by the wagon and why the birdcage is there in the first place. Now, you may be wondering how someone would survive the heart rip multiple times. Well, Toriel's pie does heal you back to full hp in the first game. So it wouldn't be a stretch to think that Kris consumes the pie after he's done doing what he does so he doesn't die. As to why he does this heart ripping thing, I think the dialogue talking about him wearing horns pretty much everyday growing up could be a clue. Since Kris is literally the only human in town, he's probably felt like an outsider his whole life. Leading to his weird personality and being non-talkative. The act of ripping his heart out could be a metaphor for trying to throw his humanity away. So he can try and become a monster. Going back to the intro's theme of "your choices don't matter in this world", we might see it play out as Kris's struggle to want to be a monster. But no matter he does, he can never actually be a monster. Leading him to more and more extreme actions throughout the game.
edit: The intro also talks about how you can't actually choose who you want to be in this world either. Which leads a bit more credence to this theory
Now, i'll try and explain why these things are related. In the ending cutscene you slam your heart/soul into the birdcage with such force it almost tips over. Going back to the denting text for the wagon, I doubt this is the first time you've ripped your heart out and that's why the wagon is so beat up. This would also explain the blood stain on the floor by the wagon and why the birdcage is there in the first place. Now, you may be wondering how someone would survive the heart rip multiple times. Well, Toriel's pie does heal you back to full hp in the first game. So it wouldn't be a stretch to think that Kris consumes the pie after he's done doing what he does so he doesn't die. As to why he does this heart ripping thing, I think the dialogue talking about him wearing horns pretty much everyday growing up could be a clue. Since Kris is literally the only human in town, he's probably felt like an outsider his whole life. Leading to his weird personality and being non-talkative. The act of ripping his heart out could be a metaphor for trying to throw his humanity away. So he can try and become a monster. Going back to the intro's theme of "your choices don't matter in this world", we might see it play out as Kris's struggle to want to be a monster. But no matter he does, he can never actually be a monster. Leading him to more and more extreme actions throughout the game.
edit: The intro also talks about how you can't actually choose who you want to be in this world either. Which leads a bit more credence to this theory
Got around to playing and finishing it in basically one session. Holy crap, it's really good - it's more mechanically involving than Undertale in basically every way, from the battle system shifting to a full party system with each character having their own skills and uses for both a pacifist playthrough and also a more violent one, to stuff like the heart evasion stuff happening in the overworld as well. I liked Undertale's battle system for its novel way of handling enemy attacks, but aside from that you're almost always using fight or act with the occasional item use to heal up. Here, however, the party members and their use in act commands as well as the TP system being a party-wide shared mana meter means there's a greater layer of strategy to handling battles, where you decide whether it's worth using a multi-member act command or focus on keeping your party members alive. While it's less evident in almost every battle if you're used to Undertale's mechanics, I imagine the future chapters are gonna ramp up the difficulty and make team strategy more important.
Other than that, Toby and Temmie really stepped up their game in the presentation department. The music is fantastic as always, the visuals are more consistent and there are significantly more and better animations, and they just pumped this chapter full of charm, which will require spoilers to expand on more.
And, of course, I need to comment on the final part of the game for obvious reasons.
Other than that, Toby and Temmie really stepped up their game in the presentation department. The music is fantastic as always, the visuals are more consistent and there are significantly more and better animations, and they just pumped this chapter full of charm, which will require spoilers to expand on more.
Ralsei is an absolutely precious fluffy boi and I love him so much. Susie goes from "holy shit girl you SCARY" to "omg you are such a lovable goofball" in record time. Lancer has aspects of Papyrus, Rouxls is a hilarious idiot, and oh wow the Spades King is legit evil.
And, of course, I need to comment on the final part of the game for obvious reasons.
Aside from the shock of "oh shit this guy legitimately can't be reasoned with and is out for blood no matter what" and Ralsei basically being Asriel, the entire post-Dark World sequence where you can go around town and talk to basically everyone is nuts, and highlights that this whole game is such a blatant alternate universe, though Sans seems to know what's up, the cheeky bastard.
Also that ending. Holy shit. I really hope 'Chara' doesn't go stabbing people. Though it's possible it might be the "real Kris", as it's implied that he's significantly more social when the player is controlling him.
Also that ending. Holy shit. I really hope 'Chara' doesn't go stabbing people. Though it's possible it might be the "real Kris", as it's implied that he's significantly more social when the player is controlling him.
I imagine he'll wanna work in a small team if he's worried about managing it.
But that would be nice, I don't know how involved they are with the games they publish but I've really loved a lot of games Devolver have released.
It doesn't take very long from "half a dozen team members" and "big step up" and "better compensated" to "a few million dollars"
I know "a few million dollars" sounds like a lot, but if you do the math, it's not unreasonable at all.
6 people * 3 years * $50,000/year is already $900,000. And $50k is on the way low-end side of things especially if he wants to get highly regarded people. And then of course are ordinary costs of running a business, paying taxes, covering healthcare (in some countries), and on and on.
What do you think a reasonable budget might be instead?
But what about the
knife?
Being a monster it's not necessarily being bad. That's pretty specific (considering UT)
I don't really buy it. Wasn't the
blood in Sans determination? That he experimented with
I remember this being fairly agreed upon.
I like the theory that the ending:
depicts Kris moments before devouring the Buttspie using the knife. He rips his heart out to rid himself of the player's influence as his conscience.
Given what we know of Kris' situation at home and growing up, I definitely believe he's made a habit of ripping his heart out over the years to deal with the pain of being so isolated and frustrated over not being able to control his life. Cutting out his sense of empathy when it gets too much to bear has probably contributed to him acting strange around other people and built up his reputation as a creepy kid around town.
Given what we know of Kris' situation at home and growing up, I definitely believe he's made a habit of ripping his heart out over the years to deal with the pain of being so isolated and frustrated over not being able to control his life. Cutting out his sense of empathy when it gets too much to bear has probably contributed to him acting strange around other people and built up his reputation as a creepy kid around town.
I'm subscribing to this idea as well.
Hope these 7 years go by quickly.
That too.
I love the idea that he has to remove his heart/SOUL everytime that Toriel bakes pie
I'm feeling more inclined towards the idea of Ralsei being the person Kris really wanted to be when they were younger. As has been mentioned the dark world has an element of make believe in it and a lot of clear connections to things in town, especially Ralsei's red horns to the ones that Kris used to wear. It's not really that far-fetched to read the dark world as manifesting people based on who enters it; Lancer and King seem almost tailor-made to lead Susie to becoming a better person, and while Susie acts independently almost all the time, Ralsei goes along with anything Kris does or asks him to do, even things that would be illogical or put him in more danger (even after Susie agrees to follow your lead in battle she still refuses to downgrade her axe or remove armor with no replacement), and he can even team up with Kris for most of their ACTs. With the options it gives you involving Ralsei it's almost like Kris has the ability to live vicariously through him.
I'm not sure if I was misunderstood or not, but the "big step up" wasn't in relation to team size, but the perceived production values. You have to remember that Toby and Temmie did most of the work in Undertale (as was pointed out by himself yesterday). Just having a few people doing it full time instead of just them two is enough to cover this discrepancy.
Also, I never said that a couple million was unreasonable - I was precisely pointing out that it probably would cost that but that Toby has that kind of money.
Well
clearly he needs it to carve the pie with (I'm only 3/4ths joking lol). But, after some more thinking. I think I'll reframe my theory slightly. I still dont think it's about some murder spree, but it might be about a single murder he's been working up to. Some of the dialogue in town supports this. Multiple people say that kris was weird and a recluse. But an interaction with the deer girl makes me think he's been building up courage for something more sinister. She mentions how one time she saw him creeping in the shadows and just popped out to "scare" her. He was covered in what he says was "ketchup" at the time. But I think that might have been his blood from ripping his heart out.
So my thinking is that Kris wants to fit in so badly that he's willing to rip out his own soul and place some monster's soul inside of himself. In hope of that changing him. I think that's why he was stalking deer girl for a bit, trying to build up courage to take her soul. Also thinking the climax of the game will be the murder and possibly the fusion of monster/human soul in this timeline. Which makes sense, as similar major events occur across both timelines but in different ways (how Toriel and asgard still split, theres teasing of amalgamations still happening, etc)
So my thinking is that Kris wants to fit in so badly that he's willing to rip out his own soul and place some monster's soul inside of himself. In hope of that changing him. I think that's why he was stalking deer girl for a bit, trying to build up courage to take her soul. Also thinking the climax of the game will be the murder and possibly the fusion of monster/human soul in this timeline. Which makes sense, as similar major events occur across both timelines but in different ways (how Toriel and asgard still split, theres teasing of amalgamations still happening, etc)
How so?
Devolver publishes some good games at times, but their entire cultivated aesthetic seems to be "needlessly edgy" and their catalogue largely reflects that.
I don't think that's really a perfect fit for something that I'd see as being very sincere/genuine/warm-hearted, even with its dark parts.
I too feel one of the interpretations of the Dark could be something like this, but more oriented towards a place were people can face their demons/problems/issues, like you said, what we saw was tailor made for Susie to face her own loneliness and opening up to people, her experience with Lancer was precisely that and after the adventure she felt more confident on her ability to make and have friends, expressing that she wants to return.
Perhaps like you said Ralsei was for Kris the same, someone tailored for Kris to deal with their own brand of loneliness which is very different from Susie's since likely what Kris is going through is feeling alone because their household is broken, Asriel left for college and they are the only human in a society that fears humans (as pointed out by Noelle's father and the kid that asked Kris if "it hurts to be made out of blood"), we can assume Kris' loneliness is not like Susie's where she just needed to open up, so the pain of not having Asriel around becomes unberable and could have been exacervated by having met Ralsei.
So they built built a cage for their soul, so they don't have to feel that pain all the time.
Perhaps like you said Ralsei was for Kris the same, someone tailored for Kris to deal with their own brand of loneliness which is very different from Susie's since likely what Kris is going through is feeling alone because their household is broken, Asriel left for college and they are the only human in a society that fears humans (as pointed out by Noelle's father and the kid that asked Kris if "it hurts to be made out of blood"), we can assume Kris' loneliness is not like Susie's where she just needed to open up, so the pain of not having Asriel around becomes unberable and could have been exacervated by having met Ralsei.
So they built built a cage for their soul, so they don't have to feel that pain all the time.
Devolver is more about the retro aesthetics, which undertale and delta rune definitely have, plus a lot of the games published by them were made with the same tools as UT and DR, so they can get people with the know how to help Toby.
Plus, if they have this "edgy" image, getting on that Undertale stuff might help them branch out and improve their image.
I haven't played the game yet myself, but I did end up buying the soundtrack via Bandcamp.
Terrific stuff, but man, I wish Toby better edited his soundtrack releases with proper looping and fade-outs. It was a bear having to do it myself with the Undertale soundtrack. =/
Terrific stuff, but man, I wish Toby better edited his soundtrack releases with proper looping and fade-outs. It was a bear having to do it myself with the Undertale soundtrack. =/
Yeah that sucks, isn't the Undertale soundtrack kind of sped up a bit too? I bought the Deltarune one yesterday and yeah I might have to extend these myself when I'm on my PC.
Did they fix this for the physical release? I was meaning to order that.
Huge props to Toby for putting this out for free. I wonder how long we'll have to wait for more.
If this doesn't come out in a span of 7 years, it will never come out.
That was a great ride. Very polished for an early proof of concept and I'm excited to play it whenever it's finished.
Fox's endearingly cheesy style of jokes will always have a place in my heart, and they did enough cool tweaks on the combat that I'm excited to see what tricks he'll come up with in the full version.
My personal opinion though, the Undertale connections didn't do much for me. The characters just felt like stand in props in a completely different game. The original is one of my all time favorites so it was still fun to see them all again, but the vagueness of any real connection to the previous game just made it feel hollow. Again, it's pretty much a big demo so that can easily change. But if it doesn't bridge the two, and we're left with people writing fanfic about cut characters and crazy theories? That would be a real bummer for me.
Fox's endearingly cheesy style of jokes will always have a place in my heart, and they did enough cool tweaks on the combat that I'm excited to see what tricks he'll come up with in the full version.
My personal opinion though, the Undertale connections didn't do much for me. The characters just felt like stand in props in a completely different game. The original is one of my all time favorites so it was still fun to see them all again, but the vagueness of any real connection to the previous game just made it feel hollow. Again, it's pretty much a big demo so that can easily change. But if it doesn't bridge the two, and we're left with people writing fanfic about cut characters and crazy theories? That would be a real bummer for me.
I feel like that was kind of the point. It's an uneasy feeling.
I've only got the digital release myself, but judging by the timestamps between the two releases on VGMdb, they look to be identical.