Smash Ultimate has 74 Characters, yet lacks Black/Brown characters (READ OP)

What the fuck some of the posts in this thread.
Yeah, Meta Knight is great representation of PoC, guys, and Miis definitely offset several dozen human characters with none of them black.
Or for that matter, out of the what, 12 characters added to this game only 2 being decidedly female, one having female options and some of ambiguous gender.

These are things worth talking about. And obviously it's not inherently an issue with Smash Bros., it's an issue with Nintendo in general for having so few minorities in their games, even new ones.

Red Arremer said:

What the fuck some of the posts in this thread.
Yeah, Meta Knight is great representation of PoC, guys, and Miis definitely offset several dozen human characters with none of them black.
Or for that matter, out of the what, 12 characters added to this game only 2 being decidedly female, one having female options and some of ambiguous gender.

These are things worth talking about. And obviously it's not inherently an issue with Smash Bros., it's an issue with Nintendo in general for having so few minorities in their games, even new ones.

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It's an issue with games in general, how many prominent POCs can you name across the medium that aren't caricaturized stereoptypes?

Big Al said:

Piranha Plant is black

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Im sure this guy will return for his probably really short ban with a different attitude about something that hurts people like me.

mikeys_legendary said:

It's my understanding that the fans (rightfully) brought this up with the devs for Half Genie Hero and she was changed back to her darker skin tone. That I followed. I'm unsure of whether or not a similar controversy occurred before that but I guess I wouldn't be too surprised.

I get the argument you're making, but she's never been officially depicted as anything other than a person of color in her games. Imo that's what counts.

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I was an early fan, I purchased a few of the early games and continued to support the IP, I can't really say I enjoyed playing them that much, I put in more time with Shovel Knight. I supported Shantae because of what she represented at the time. It would really piss me off if she got in because of her skin tone (even knowing that was my main reason for supporting her games) after that history no as a black person hells no, I don't care if it was one guys marketing mistake at the time I was pissed they fucked up with that so to slide in under a quota of PoC in Smash after that smh no hell no. That would be insulting. The devs talked about the pressures of her being a girl instead of a boy, many wanted them to change the character to a male but they stuck with her which is cool but they don't touch on her race or her being based on a camper Matt Bozon's wife met at camp. This Character is a perfect example of the pitfalls of creating not only female characters but also creating a person of color as a character you cannot drop the ball on that at all. Because you are going to touch people that have deep feelings about that shit.

TBH though she should have gotten in on the 3DS version of Smash, I think if they stayed Nintendo exclusive they might have made a good case for the character not based on skin tone but just portable history of support.

vestan said:

Just going to leave this here

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And a streets of rage reference, nice :p

Yataran said:

What show is that? First timer here, but it looks interesting...

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Craig of the Creek

vestan said:

Just going to leave this here

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Craig of the Creek is a great show

Wander_ said:

villager and inklings do have black alts so no, not really

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idk, 2 or 3 out of 74 still seems lacking to me

AxkilAvenger said:

Haven't read through this thread but I'm gonna weigh in regardless: there are miis in the game. Make your own blacks or browns

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it is incredible to see someone put a negative amount of thought into a post

What brown/black character do you know from Nintendo/3rd party that actually deserves a spot in Smash over anyone else?

Equality and all that is cool.. but you are being ridicolous here. First we actually need black/brown characters to be important and have more main roles and then we can talk about a spot in Smash.

The Adder said:

I am one of those pointing out you didn't call Misango definitively black until someone called you out on continuing a consistent pattern of minority groups not saying a word until it looks like black folks are going to get something.

Like, let me put it this way:

Have you advocated for Misango in Smash before?
If not, why not?
Why did you feel that, instead of coming in and saying "I want Misango for reasons x, y, and z" you instead felt the need to denigrate the black woman character to bolster your point?

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In a thread with dudes telling you to make your own Mii character, you're taking issue with my fantasy push for Misango? Give me a break bro. "Denigrate", again miss me with your bullshit if you're getting offended I called her a generic American. Save your indignation for the real pieces of shit in this thread.

Phantom Thief said:

It's an issue with games in general, how many prominent POCs can you name across the medium that aren't caricaturized stereoptypes?

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Of course, you are 100% right. Though I would argue that this thread has Smash's, and by that extent, Nintendo's minority representation as its focus, rather that of games in general.

vestan said:

Why not?


All of the characters I listed aside from Demoman and Sazh have appeared on a Nintendo platform before.


Why though? They're great fits for Smash, what specifically about them makes them "Assist Trophy levels" when Dark Pit, Corrin, R.O.B and Bayonetta continue to exist?

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Ok I'll give you Dark Pit and Corring but what's wrong with Bayonetta and R.O.B exactly?

Anyways as for your post the problem with those characters is that most of them aren't the most popular/important characters in their franchise.

Why would Elena get in over Chun-li?

How would Shinobu get in when it'd probably take a miracle just to get Travis?(though don't get me wrong I'd love both of them.)

Dark Pit is an important character in Uprising and an easy Echo.

It really speaks more about the fact that not a lot of popular primary characters are people of color.

Nintendo is getting a little better IMO. It's just not fast enough to catch Smash.

For what it's worth I'm all for Urbosa it Twintelle as DLC as unlikely as I think they'd be.

Brakke said:

You can't be serious w/ Shadow Man.

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Again, why wouldn't I be? The game was a critical and commercial success. He's easily one of the most iconic black characters in gaming and fits into Smash like a glove. If Bayo, Dark Pit and Greninja can get in I see absolutely no reason why any of the characters I listed can't.

Smiles said:

I was an early fan, I purchased a few of the early games and continued to support the IP, I can't really say I enjoyed playing them that much, I put in more time with Shovel Knight. I supported Shantae because of what she represented at the time. It would really piss me off if she got in because of her skin tone (even knowing that was my main reason for supporting her games) after that history no as a black person hells no, I don't care if it was one guys marketing mistake at the time I was pissed they fucked up with that so to slide in under a quota of PoC in Smash after that smh no hell no. That would be insulting. The devs talked about the pressures of her being a girl instead of a boy, many wanted them to change the character to a male but they stuck with her which is cool but they don't touch on her race or her being based on a camper Matt Bozon's wife met at camp. This Character is a perfect example of the pitfalls of creating not only female characters but also creating a person of color as a character you cannot drop the ball on that at all. Because you are going to touch people that have deep feelings about that shit.

TBH though she should have gotten in on the 3DS version of Smash, I think if they stayed Nintendo exclusive they might have made a good case for the character not based on skin tone but just portable history of support.

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Shante on Smash would be so great I will totally dance my way to victory with her

Holy shit at the (borderline) alt-right think from some of these posters. If you think that telling underrepresented groups to "make their own characters" using an avatar fighter is a good argument, then maybe 4chan or NeoGAF would be a better fit for your gaming discussion needs. Show some damn empathy for your fellow gaming enthusiasts who want representation that they can relate to. It doesn't hurt you at all, unless you are racist.

SuperiorTrashTalk said:

I definitely started drawing more black characters after seeing the Boondocks. It was really meaningful to me. I was amazed that there were black kids in the newspaper comics. It was like someone was breaking the rules.

I don't think it's wrong to say that if you're white, you wouldn't really understand. If you're a PoC and you don't care, you do you but honestly I think that comes from just accepting things the way they are. Just like at some point in my childhood, I accepted that black people just couldn't be the heroes. I definitely lost my damn kid mind when Static Shock debuted on tv.

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Another one. Static shock did it to me too.

louis89 said:

The characters in Streets of Rage have zero background or personality. They're literally just different sprites. Yeah, I'll pick the black guy sprite, because that's what I look like in real life. If there is no black guy sprite, that's fine too.

My point is that I am now an adult with a personality, and video game characters are so much more than they were then. I don't get a "good feeling" from playing as a black character who is nothing like me. I am so much more than my skin colour, and so are they. The fact that Ganondorf has dark skin and Link has light skin doesn't make me want to play as Ganondorf over Link. I want to play as Link because Link is the good guy and the hero I've spent countless hours playing as in his games. Their skin colour pales into irrelevance when they're an actual character with a background, and I can't relate at all to thinking so much about race and what colour people are that things like the race of characters in games are important to you. Like I just wouldn't even think of it.

I am certain that white gamers don't give a shit about the fact that characters like Link and Mario are white and don't feel anything as a result of their skin colour when they play as them - just as I don't.

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I'm not sure what to say but good for you? Everyone doesn't feel the same way as you do. Some of us need that extra factor to enjoy and appreciate something more. I love Zelda and I love Link, he's my favorite video game character but how cool would that be if he was black? Yet I promise you if Nintendo made him black, these crazy "gamers" would have a shitstorm and complain, petition and do whatever they can to boycott the game. This is just an example of how we are treated through cosplay, videogames, movies. I think you should be a little more appreciative because you need to be represented and if not you there are many others that wish to feel included. I dont think this is the kind of thing to say oh it doesn't affect me so its fine. Obviously a lot of us aren't that affected because we still buy the game but you should still feel the need for other people. To deny or ignore or even hand wave isn't fair. The fact that people say, be a mii or a color swap is sad when they're full blown, front and center characters.

Red Arremer said:

Of course, you are 100% right. Though I would argue that this thread has Smash's, and by that extent, Nintendo's minority representation as its focus, rather that of games in general.

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Yes, it largely throws Nintendo's lack of minority representation (albeit they have started to be better about this in the last few years) into stark relief, but it also does include a fair few third party characters, who don't add to the representation either.
In general, as an Indian man, representation for me in video games sucks. The most I have ever gotten is... Dhalsim? And he's literally a racist caricature.

What ethnicity is this version of Little Mac anyway? He looks to be mixed race or Hispanic.

Mr. Fantastic said:

In a thread with dudes telling you to make your own Mii character, you're taking issue with my fantasy push for Misango? Give me a break bro. "Denigrate", again miss me with your bullshit if you're getting offended I called her a generic American. Save your indignation for the real pieces of shit in this thread.

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You don't get a pass on bullshit just because there are worse people. The fact you can't answer any of those questions I asked you straight says something. And maybe you should do a little introspection about what that is?

But nah, I'm just being a big ol' meanie and you've obviously done nothing wrong. I'm sure those people catching bans think the same thing.

Hours Left said:

Ken is also part Japanese.

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Spaltazar said:

could have sworn ken was supposed to be american.

€: i guess the post above me clears it up with him being part japanese

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What in the world? I've been playing SF since 2 came out and I never knew this.

What is clear is that video games as a whole, especially from Japanese developers, have been poor at looking beyond East Asian and Northern European/American influences for games and characters. The problem with smash is that it (mostly) relies on long running franchises for characters. Hopefully I'm the future things will get better and the DLC will have more opportunity to focus on more recent characters that offer more diversity.

On another note, are the ice climbers supposed to be Inuit? I'm not up in the lore of the franchise.

Smiles said:

I was an early fan, I purchased a few of the early games and continued to support the IP, I can't really say I enjoyed playing them that much, I put in more time with Shovel Knight. I supported Shantae because of what she represented at the time. It would really piss me off if she got in because of her skin tone (even knowing that was my main reason for supporting her games) after that history no as a black person hells no, I don't care if it was one guys marketing mistake at the time I was pissed they fucked up with that so to slide in under a quota of PoC in Smash after that smh no hell no. That would be insulting. The devs talked about the pressures of her being a girl instead of a boy, many wanted them to change the character to a male but they stuck with her which is cool but they don't touch on her race or her being based on a camper Matt Bozon's wife met at camp. This Character is a perfect example of the pitfalls of creating not only female characters but also creating a person of color as a character you cannot drop the ball on that at all. Because you are going to touch people that have deep feelings about that shit.

TBH though she should have gotten in on the 3DS version of Smash, I think if they stayed Nintendo exclusive they might have made a good case for the character not based on skin tone but just portable history of support.

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I get what you're saying, but I probably wouldn't think Shantae made it in because she was a POC. I personally think she has great move set potential, I mean Pirate's Curse alone has enough stuff if they don't want to do tansformations for whatever reason.

I've also never looked at Shantae as a black character, but more Middle Eastern, given her skin tone and penchant for belly dancing and the music in the background...and that she's part genie.

The Adder said:

You don't get a pass on bullshit just because there are worse people. The fact you can't answer any of those questions I asked you straight says something. And maybe you should do a little introspection about what that is?

But nah, I'm just being a big ol' meanie and you've obviously done nothing wrong. I'm sure those people catching bans think the same thing.

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I'm a bad person now? For advocating a more diverse POC get in over Twintelle? Wow.

I'm done with you.

I'm glad that we have a dark Villager now and I decided as soon as I saw it that I would always use the Green Inkling boy because it's more or less the character I created in Splatoon 2. I'd personally be for having Elma in Smash, without any questions asked or any strings attached.

Twintelle on the other hand is a mixed bag in my opinion, I feel like her popularity is more for design reasons and less people valuing her as an actual character for the most part. Plus I don't like that her power set is associated with her hair, So I think it would be best to avoid her entirely. So while she's better than nothing I would feel Misango would be the better Arms rep as he is both representation and has a more unique powerset to bring to Smash. But in the end I doubt either would be considered if Spring Man is an assist, since I can't think of any franchise not represented by it's "main" character.

In the end, I'm thankful at the very least to have more options than Smash 4 even if they are still limited as a whole, but I don't think that will change unless Nintendo becomes more inclusive as a whole, which I will admit has been happening in a few small ways here and there.

This is a good conversation to have, but I think the answer will always come down to "Smash is a reflection of Nintendo's history" and with most of their main characters being white/animals/etci it's not a surprise the roster ended up the way it did. The push for diversity is important, but smash character slots are uniquely contested. It's not like say, Overwatch or Street Fighter
where they could just add a character to mitigate this issue. The demand for specific characters is huge, so it's not something that can easily be addressed.

Still, I think there's room to add a bit more diversity to the roster without compromising on the quality of the character addition. Twintelle is the perfect example, and Rodin would have been a solid choice (shame he ended up being an assist trophy).

One last thing: I think people need to knock it off with some of these sentiments. It's juvenile to suggest Ganondorf remotely counts as representation when he's green demon lord. It doesn't matter if he's the King of Gerudo's when he pretty much looks nothing like them. I also think Elma's a bit overrated as a diversity pick. She's dark skinned, but in the generic, anime sense.
And please knock it off with wanting Doc Louis to be playable. He's not worthy of being a playable character. I seriously don't think most people are suggesting him in good faith, and the ones that are should realize that are several better picks in Punch-out alone.

Regulus Tera said:

What ethnicity is this version of Little Mac anyway? He looks to be mixed race or Hispanic.

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Italian.

Apparently Ken is actually 3/4 Japanese.

So I guess were gonna complain when the new Def Jam gets revealed there are to few white characters.

A_R_N_O_S said:

So I guess were gonna complain when the new Def Jam gets revealed there are to few white characters.

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Oh my fucking god

A_R_N_O_S said:

So I guess were gonna complain when the new Def Jam gets revealed there are to few white characters.

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Yes, because white people are usually really hard to find in video games.

A_R_N_O_S said:

So I guess were gonna complain when the new Def Jam gets revealed there are to few white characters.

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Some "It's Okay to be White" type bullshit. Even if that were the case, media representation of PoC != media representation of white people. Which I'm sure you can surmise.

A_R_N_O_S said:

So I guess were gonna complain when the new Def Jam gets revealed there are to few white characters.

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FFNY had more white characters than Smash Ultimate has black or brown, at least.

A_R_N_O_S said:

So I guess were gonna complain when the new Def Jam gets revealed there are to few white characters.

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A_R_N_O_S said:

So I guess were gonna complain when the new Def Jam gets revealed there are to few white characters.

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Lord have mercy those are real people and rap is part of our culture

Phantom Thief said:

Yes, it largely throws Nintendo's lack of minority representation (albeit they have started to be better about this in the last few years) into stark relief, but it also does include a fair few third party characters, who don't add to the representation either.
In general, as an Indian man, representation for me in video games sucks. The most I have ever gotten is... Dhalsim? And he's literally a racist caricature.

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There's also Symmetra from Overwatch, who at least is somewhat interesting. But yeah, I hear you. You can count any prolific Indian characters in gaming as a whole on one hand.

A_R_N_O_S said:

So I guess were gonna complain when the new Def Jam gets revealed there are to few white characters.

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Here you go.

Mr. Fantastic said:

I'm a bad person now? For advocating a more diverse POC get in over Twintelle? Wow.

I'm done with you.

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I'm sorry, but I'll have to side with The Adder on this. It's just weird for you to dismiss Twintelle as a pick over Misango when it should be perfectly possible for us to have both in the game. If you're of the opinion that having two slots relegated to black characters from a single franchise is unrealistic due to the nature of development and resources, you've been making a poor point making that evident.

Bit sad that inklings and villager were the only playable PoC in the roster. Hell im not even sure inklings have an alt that changes their skin. I just think I saw it during a direct. And even then it's not that strong a case since they are alt colors.

Holding some hope that since Nintendo is making bigger efforts in includig more PoC in Their modern games. It will start being more visible in Smash going forward.

Red Arremer said:

There's also Symmetra from Overwatch, who at least is somewhat interesting. But yeah, I hear you. You can count any prolific Indian characters in gaming as a whole on one hand.

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Yeah, she's a great one, I won't argue against her in the slightest.
I wish we had more like that.

A_R_N_O_S said:

So I guess were gonna complain when the new Def Jam gets revealed there are to few white characters.

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You know you don't have to click on every thread.

Believe me it can save you some trouble.

Spinky said:

Here you go.

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I think you mean NeoNaziGAF.com

Mr. Fantastic said:

I'm a bad person now? For advocating a more diverse POC get in over Twintelle? Wow.

I'm done with you.

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I've talked to you before, so I know you're not stupid. Stop misrepresenting what I'm saying.

Crazy Izanagi said:

You know you don't have to click on every thread.

Believe me it can save you some trouble.

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Well good news, now they won't be able to.
I hope.

EDIT: Oh, just a one week ban, foh with that

vestan said:

Why not?


All of the characters I listed aside from Demoman and Sazh have appeared on a Nintendo platform before.


Why though? They're great fits for Smash, what specifically about them makes them "Assist Trophy levels" when Dark Pit, Corrin, R.O.B and Bayonetta continue to exist?

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Because I don't have to do a search to remind me who those characters are I played those, I know what a ROB is. Are you sure you are a Nintendo fan? Do you really know Smash?
Dark Pit = Sakurai creation so ugh he tends to prefer his own creations over others, that is why Kirby is such a badass and the only one to survive the purge.
And okay Assist Trophy is kinda generous because those on your list should just be Spirit stickers.

Make a better case for your list, tell us which Nintendo platforms and game titles they were featured in. Look I'm a black dude I tend to love seeing black characters in games but I seriously could not come up with your list, gaming wise they are just not up there. As far as an impact on Nintendo platforms you have to make a case for that maybe you just played things I never played so let's be fair make a better case for why those folks should be in Smash over Bayonetta of all people.

I think is more about a lack of those characters of those in general(at least in Nintendo franchises) than the Smash Team purposely avoiding them.

This is what i thought yesterday, like Elma is an alien sure, but shes still a brown woman visually & that representation is great, but a pot plant gets in over her? though it does seem she will be DLC, no AT or Spirit of her.

If only they left Daisy with her Tan look...

Also pretty sure Elma is a lock for DLC I think.

A_R_N_O_S said:

So I guess were gonna complain when the new Def Jam gets revealed there are to few white characters.

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lol

Dude, Briggs was the strongest dude in Def Jam 1 and he was white

Ok so these threads are ban bait and I usually avoid them but this is related with Smash Ultimate so i'll be careful with what I write:

Super Smash Bros is a crossover multiplayer fighting game series, so it really isn't Smash's fault as much as it is the Japanese videogame industry's fault that you don't see many characters from human minority groups (you don't see many human characters period). There are some Nintendo characters worth discussion within the game like ganondorf, as well as potential new comers:

Elma (Xenoblade X)
Twintelle (ARMS)
Marina (Splatoon 2)

But they are all either secondary or background characters. So one could make an argument for their inclusion, but it is clear that Smash prioritizes main characters from their respective series and can't exactly go out it's way to include the ones mentioned before just for the argument of representation.

Diversity in the smash series ultimately depends on the diversity that the videogame industry has, and because smash is all about historical VG characters facing each other, then history is also thrown in the mix. As Nintendo/Smash can't exactly make, say, Mario, black just to accommodate an historical character to amend for the lack of representation from the past. Leaving the possibility of poc to skin tone variations from character that represent customization within their own games (Villager, Miis, Pokémon Trainer, Inklings).

So in order to actually deal with this problematic, a change of perspective from Nintendo and the entire Japanese industry is required. In order to create new IPs with a more protagonistic role from other ethnicities. Furthermore, it won't be an immediate fix, as you can't just erase 40+ years of Japanese videogame history with two or three new IPs following the previously mentioned standard. Which is kind of already being worked on (Notice how all the characters listed are from modern IP).

Sebastopa said:

Ok so these threads are ban bait and I usually avoid them but this is related with Smash Ultimate so i'll be careful with what I write:

Super Smash Bros is a crossover multiplayer fighting game series, so it really isn't Smash's fault as much as it is the Japanese videogame industry's fault that you don't see many characters from human minority groups (you don't see many human characters period). There are some Nintendo characters worth discussion within the game like ganondorf, as well as potential new comers:

Elma (Xenoblade X)
Twintelle (ARMS)
Marina (Splatoon 2)

But they are all either secondary or background characters. So one could make an argument for their inclusion, but it is clear that Smash prioritizes main characters from their respective series and can't exactly go out it's way to include the ones mentioned before just for the argument of representation.

Diversity in the smash series ultimately depends on the diversity that the videogame industry has, and because smash is all about historical VG characters facing each other, then history is also thrown in the mix. As Nintendo/Smash can't exactly make, say, Mario, black just to accommodate an historical character to amend for the lack of representation from the past. Leaving the possibility of poc to skin tone variations from character that represent customization within their own games (Villager, Miis, Pokémon Trainer, Inklings).

So in order to actually deal with this problematic, a change of perspective from Nintendo and the entire Japanese industry is required. In order to create new IPs with a more protagonistic role from other ethnicities. Furthermore, it won't be an immediate fix, as you can't just erase 40+ years of Japanese videogame history with two or three new IPs following the previously mentioned standard. Which is kind of already being worked on (Notice how all the characters listed are from modern IP).

Ironically enough, the oldest Nintendo character in the Smash series is arguably (Cartoony) black: Mr. Game and Watch.

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You did "ok" until the last line.

How did you honestly think that is fine?

It is sadly a representation of the current gaming landscape still. Not just Smash or Nintendo's fault.

Even looking at this year's top games, Spider-Man, Red Dead, Black Ops, Assassin's Creed, God of War, etc...

Things has gotten better when it comes to representation, yet it still something secondary for most publishers. They add characters that are black, hispanic, female, LGBQT and so on...but mostly as a checklist, while mostly displaying the "straight white male" main characters front and center.

I'd give classic Nintendo characters a pass here. Yes, they are modelled after human characteristics, but that's probably more of a bias that you can see in Star Trek alien species, too. Would I be able to tell if Mario is modelled after a Western or Asian model? He's Italian, but if I didn't know, I'd have a really hard time to decide with many of their characters. Let's count human-like characters in the game first: I'd have 46 out of 74, but I might be wrong (Mario, Luigi, Link, Samus, Dark Samus, Ness, Captain Falcon, Peach, Daisy, Sheik, Zelda, Dr. Mario, Marth, Lucina, Young Link, Ganondorf, Roy, Chrom, Pit, Dark Pit, Zero Suit Samus, Wario, Snake, Ike, Pokémon Trainer, Lukas, Olimar, Toon Link, Villager, Wii Fit Trainer, Rosaline, Little Mac, Mii Fighter *3, Bayonetta, Inkling, Palutena, Robin, Shulk, Ryu, Ken, Cloud, Corrin, Simon, Richter).

When looking at newer Nintendo franchises, you could customize your Mii, Wii Fit Trainer and Inkling just fine by yourself. I won't buy Smash, but can you do it here? You should! It was possible to use your own Mii in Mario Kart 8, too. It's great for identification, I fully agree. But I don't see a point in having a coloured Mario when Mario has always been the way he is.

Should Nintendo develop games where everyone can feel represented? Absolutely, at least if it's about humans and/or the game wants to be a mirror for human societies. Smash is more like a victim of all the other Nintendo franchises that have missed out on chances to include diverse set of characters. Let me pose a question in this regard: As for Fire Emblem with its many characters in each entry of the series - hasn't there been someone everyone could feel represented with? If so, is characters choice for Smahs adequate? Again, I am not a Fire Emblem expert, but I think we should focus on those series that have diversity to offer first and foremost with critique.

And then it's about having to call Nintendo (but all Japanese companies, really) to include the Western diverse societies into their game-design as a whole. It's probably harder to realize or even get its deserved attention in a homogeneous country as the Japan though. If realized, Smash has a much more diverse roaster of characters to choose from.