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Deleted member 4093

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,671
I'm black and I don't understand it either, so it's not just him.

In all the time I was playing games growing up I literally never gave any thought to the fact that the fictional characters in the games I was playing were a different race as me. If a black character was available I'd be likely to pick them, like in Streets of Rage for example. But I've never actually cared beyond that.

I identify far more with Michael than Franklin in GTAV, because Franklin is a street gangster and is nothing like me as a person. His skin colour is one small part of his character, just like it is for me. I have no affinity with a character just because they're a similar colour to me; they don't represent me and they have nothing to do with me. And someone doesn't not represent the kind of person I am just because they're white. This idea of race-based "representation" in fictional media is just so bizarre to me.
Well some of us actually like to be represented.

You picking the black character in streets of rage is a perfect example. In smash bros. you cant do that unless you do a palette swap. You picked the black character because you relate.

Its a feeling like,

"Oh they have one like me"

Its just a good feeling and it makes me happy

White people get that feeling all the damn time and they dont even know it.
 

Zomba13

#1 Waluigi Fan! Current Status: Crying
Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,916
Forgot about Doc. Sandman seems like a better fit for Smash as a Little Mac opponent.

Yup. I'd much rather Mr Sandman over Doc Louis as a second Punchout rep and as an actual black character. Doc is cool and all, but like, he's an assist. He's a trainer and a coach and it'd be weird for him to fight (though I think he did fight in that one Wii doanload only bonus thing?). It's be like if Pokémon Trainer started fighting instead of cheering on from the sidelines. But Mr Sandman? Now you've got a powerhouse world champ and worthy rival/villain for Mac AND he's not tied down with likeness rights like Tyson.
 

Splader

Member
Feb 12, 2018
5,063
d
Did you really take me posting a picture of Wario as an attack? He said he didn't feel represented as a fat white male who dreams of more. I showed him a fat white male who dreams of more who is in the game to point out that, he actually is represented. Even though there was some humor intended, it's far from being mean or being an attack. You seem to be more upset about our tone in responding to the guy than his total disregard for how minorities feel about representation and why it might be important to them.



I can connect with Link too. That doesn't mean there shouldn't be more diversity. There is an inherent difference when you have grown up seeing people that look like you put only in minor roles, stereotyped roles or none at all versus when people that look like you almost 100% of the time are represented. As a black male, I connected differently to the movie Black Panther than I did Captain America. Doesn't mean I couldn't connect to Captain America but it's very different and there is a problem when someone who isn't black tries to tell me that it doesn't mean anything.

Not going to lie, first thing I saw is someone quote themselves as a "fat 32 year old male", probably more so in jest, and then someone quotes a picture of a pretty ugly and unattractive character. So yeah I saw it as a bad joke/light attack. The reason I have more of an issue with the tone the people who replied to him are using is because what he said is stupid and ignorant. That's something that can be worked on. But I don't understand how you can dismiss an entire group of people purely based on the color of their skin. Without knowing anything else at all about them. That sounds like insanity to me.

I agree 100% with your second point. As a brown person, I usually see my race represented as either a stereotypical Indian, or as a terrorist. It's definitely one of the reasons I really enjoyed The Night Of so much, that it had a brown person as the main character and it wasn't stereotyped. Same thing with The Big Sick.
And maybe it doesn't mean anything to them. That's okay. People have different opinions on things. To me as well, race in video game characters means almost nothing. I'd 100% rather get a better developed and created character than someone who's just a brown skintone. Sure if I have the option I'll make my dude as brown as I can, like in Destiny or other similar games, but not having that ability doesn't limit me in anyway.
 

BDubsLegend

Banned
Jan 24, 2018
1,027
Lol this is interesting, normally I don't comment in "add a token black character" threads because it's ban bait on this forum. Sometimes people want representation so bad (usually non minorites) they just want someone in to say they did it. The true problem that won't be fixed with skin swaps and throwaway characters is that there are no major black characters in any Nintendo properties.

I can't think of a major black character in Japanese gaming, especially a main character. Japan appears to be a very self focused nation. I don't know how many back people live there but I bet it's not many. Without making a serious effort to include Americans could Japan even actually represent a black character outside of just changing skins?

Often when posts like this are made it's people just discovering what oppression and racial politics are for the first time, especially if they haven't experienced it. They attack media because that's what they know but as always media is a reflection of society and the issues are with society not a narrow medium like video games.

They could put a black character in smash, it would probably satisfy people who want "representation". But would it be an accurate representation? A well made character? Or just another character with black skin with traits that could fit any character just to say we did it?

LOL at this Ganonndorf bullshit too. He is not black.
 

Mr. Fantastic

Alt-account
Banned
Apr 27, 2018
3,189
C. It just generally pisses me off when people see black folks advocating for something and, instead of saying 'hey, let's get in on this too' they decide to say 'fuck what the darkies want, what about us'.

misango is also fucking black, he just also happens to be latino. those are not mutually exclusive. miss me with that "fuck what the darkies want" bullshit, or is Misango a white man in your universe?
 

vestan

#REFANTAZIO SWEEP
Member
Dec 28, 2017
24,612
I don't see these as Smash worthy characters.
Why not?

Smash use to mean you had to at least had a history with Nintendo platforms.
All of the characters I listed aside from Demoman and Sazh have appeared on a Nintendo platform before.

Any of those on your list is kinda Assist Trophy levels
Why though? They're great fits for Smash, what specifically about them makes them "Assist Trophy levels" when Dark Pit, Corrin, R.O.B and Bayonetta continue to exist?
 

KtSlime

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,910
Tokyo
This is a fair point that they may not consider it (and this fact that they probably DON'T give it much thought in general is why I give early Nintendo characters a full pass on race), but I would be shocked that if after thinking about it they would place Marth and Roy as being more Japanese than European.

I'm going to agree, but with one caveat, I think his 'foreignness' is what will cause people to place him closer to being European than Japanese, rather than name, armor, or skin color.
 
Oct 25, 2017
13,666
fuck it, I am now campaining for MISANGO

He's black/brown, latino AND a native person, he's more diverse than generic American Twintelle.

latest
Isn't twintelle french?
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,722
I'm going to agree, but with one caveat, I think his 'foreignness' is what will cause people to place him closer to being European than Japanese, rather than name, armor, or skin color.
Uh, wouldn't his "foreigness" be a result of his name, armor, and/or skin color? (Though in terms of animation, I think European skin color and Asian skin color are essentially interchangeable IMO)
 

nded

Member
Nov 14, 2017
10,563
Yup. I'd much rather Mr Sandman over Doc Louis as a second Punchout rep and as an actual black character. Doc is cool and all, but like, he's an assist. He's a trainer and a coach and it'd be weird for him to fight (though I think he did fight in that one Wii doanload only bonus thing?). It's be like if Pokémon Trainer started fighting instead of cheering on from the sidelines. But Mr Sandman? Now you've got a powerhouse world champ and worthy rival/villain for Mac AND he's not tied down with likeness rights like Tyson.
I mean, Doc Louis is a former heavyweight champion according to the lore. Him turning young and buff again is an obvious counterpart to Little Mac's final smash if he were an echo fighter. Either character could work, but I think Doc's got the advantage in terms of being visually distinct and just a better defined character in general.
 

Deleted member 4093

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,671
Did you really take me posting a picture of Wario as an attack? He said he didn't feel represented as a fat white male who dreams of more. I showed him a fat white male who dreams of more who is in the game to point out that, he actually is represented. Even though there was some humor intended, it's far from being mean or being an attack. You seem to be more upset about our tone in responding to the guy than his total disregard for how minorities feel about representation and why it might be important to them.



I can connect with Link too. That doesn't mean there shouldn't be more diversity. There is an inherent difference when you have grown up seeing people that look like you put only in minor roles, stereotyped roles or none at all versus when people that look like you almost 100% of the time are represented. As a black male, I connected differently to the movie Black Panther than I did Captain America. Doesn't mean I couldn't connect to Captain America but it's very different and there is a problem when someone who isn't black tries to tell me that it doesn't mean anything.
Exactly. I even like Caps character more but Black Panther had me feeling so fucking special it was crazy.
 

The Adder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,093

FluxWaveZ

Persona Central
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
10,887
I always love how many people treat the desire from some people for more representation as if it's a personal affront and the topic shouldn't matter to anyone because, "Who cares? I'm colorblind when it comes to ethnicity, and so should you be." Or, "I don't see why representation should matter (usually from white people)."
 

Mr. Fantastic

Alt-account
Banned
Apr 27, 2018
3,189
Isn't twintelle french?

apparently, but like i said, that doesn't make it any better

point is, Misango is the most diverse option in the ARMs roster.

"but he's yet another man"

while yes it'd be perfect if he was a woman as well, there's plenty of women in the roster already and not ONE latino character.

These are not the same statement.

some consider him black, some consider him brown, and this thread isn't exclusive for black representation anyhow, or did you miss the "brown" in the title? again, you used the word darkies, Misango is a POC. You're not making any sense whatsover with your pushback.
 
Nov 17, 2017
12,864
I've sorta always associated Fire Emblem characters as Japanese tbh. Yeah plenty of the games take place in a more European setting, but I dunno, them being Japanese-like was just stuck in my head.
It's hard not to see them as white (European). I guess the fact that they are anime stylized is Japanese-like but the setting, how they look and dress always screamed European to me.

It's even more apparent when actual Asian/Japanese coded characters show up. Like Say'ri who appears in Awakening and is very distinctly foreign compared to the other characters. Her support conversations highlight how her culture is basically just Japanese culture. Fire Emblem Fates is even more obvious with the whole Hoshido/Nohr thing.


I'm black and I don't understand it either, so it's not just him.

In all the time I was playing games growing up I literally never gave any thought to the fact that the fictional characters in the games I was playing were a different race as me. If a black character was available I'd be likely to pick them, like in Streets of Rage for example. But I've never actually cared beyond that.

I identify far more with Michael than Franklin in GTAV, because Franklin is a street gangster and is nothing like me as a person. His skin colour is one small part of his character, just like it is for me. I have no affinity with a character just because they're a similar colour to me; they don't represent me and they have nothing to do with me. And someone doesn't not represent the kind of person I am just because they're white. This idea of race-based "representation" in fictional media is just so bizarre to me.
I'm black and I do understand.

Growing up, I always wondered why the characters in the games and shows I loved didn't look like me. I liked to draw a lot as a kid and all the characters I made up were white. I just assumed that black people couldn't be heroes. When I got a little older, I used to draw Gold from Pokemon G/S/C but with brown skin because Crystal was when they finally let you choose a girl trainer but you couldn't be black. I remember seeing the Boondocks in the newspaper comic strips page and being completely amazed that the characters were black kids like me. It felt surreal.

I don't know, I guess when you grow up in a society where you're told you don't matter/you're not important and the media you consume just reinforces that, it makes it feel like these games aren't for you. And I mean that on the whole - not any specific game. Just as a whole, there's such a lack of prominent PoC characters that I got the message as a kid that these games weren't necessarily for me. I could enjoy them but the creators didn't care about me or rather they didn't notice I existed.

I think Franklin is just a bad example too. I hated seeing black characters thrown into roles like that. I know you can't avoid it in GTA because that's the kind of game it is but I didn't want to associate with black characters that were stereotypes. I just wanted to see that a person like me could be a hero too. I love Link and I can associate with him as I play but that's something completely different. It doesn't solve the problem. Maybe it doesn't bother you personally but maybe now you sort of get why it's important to others?
 
Jan 9, 2018
858
If Japanese players were having this conversation, right now, trying to decide how much ethnic representation that Japanese and/or Asian players get in games, would Marth go under "Japanese race" or "White European race"? Would he be viewed as being closer to Mario and Link? Or closer to Ryu?

I remember seeing a youtube (won't look for it now but It was from "Japanese man Yuta" I think) were some anime character where shown to Japanese people asking for their ethnicity. Every time an anime character was blonde or having timely European style clothes it was immediately identified as American/European. So according to that (totally un-scientific), I would assume most of the Japanese audience will identify FE character as European.

Also, I guess the root on why the almost none representation of other ethnicities on Japanese games (not only Smash) is because Japan itself is not as diverse as Europe or America, so it will take some time until others ethnicities become more present. We can see this is changing with things like some of the characters in ARMS and the skin option in many games as Pokemon or Animal Crossing, where is still a relatively new option.

So I guess things are going in the right direction at least.
 

Deleted member 4093

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,671
It's hard not to see them as white (European). I guess the fact that they are anime stylized is Japanese-like but the setting, how they look and dress always screamed European to me.

It's even more apparent when actual Asian/Japanese coded characters show up. Like Say'ri who appears in Awakening and is very distinctly foreign compared to the other characters. Her support conversations highlight how her culture is basically just Japanese culture. Fire Emblem Fates is even more obvious with the whole Hoshido/Nohr thing.



I'm black and I do understand.

Growing up, I always wondered why the characters in the games and shows I loved didn't look like me. I liked to draw a lot as a kid and all the characters I made up were white. I just assumed that black people couldn't be heroes. When I got a little older, I used to draw Gold from Pokemon G/S/C but with brown skin because Crystal was when they finally let you choose a girl trainer but you couldn't be black. I remember seeing the Boondocks in the newspaper comic strips page and being completely amazed that the characters were black kids like me. It felt surreal.

I don't know, I guess when you grow up in a society where you're told you don't matter/you're not important and the media you consume just reinforces that, it makes it feel like these games aren't for you. And I mean that on the whole - not any specific game. Just as a whole, there's such a lack of prominent PoC characters that I got the message as a kid that these games weren't necessarily for me. I could enjoy them but the creators didn't care about me or rather they didn't notice I existed.

I think Franklin is just a bad example too. I hated seeing black characters thrown into roles like that. I know you can't avoid it in GTA because that's the kind of game it is but I didn't want to associate with black characters that were stereotypes. I just wanted to see that a person like me could be a hero too. I love Link and I can associate with him as I play but that's something completely different. It doesn't solve the problem. Maybe it doesn't bother you personally but maybe now you sort of get why it's important to others?
Bro we had the same experiences.

I remember when I first saw The Boondocks strip and I was in love. I used to actually look forward to the newspaper every day and would wait till Friday for the color version.

I remember drawing dragonball characters and making black super saiyans. Man people dont know what it do to you.
 

AxkilAvenger

Banned
Apr 8, 2018
1,641
User Banned (1 month): Dismissing concerns about diversity
Haven't read through this thread but I'm gonna weigh in regardless: there are miis in the game. Make your own blacks or browns
 

louis89

Member
Jun 11, 2018
69
Tokyo
Well some of us actually like to be represented.

You picking the black character in streets of rage is a perfect example. In smash bros. you cant do that unless you do a palette swap. You picked the black character because you relate.

Its a feeling like,

"Oh they have one like me"

Its just a good feeling and it makes me happy

White people get that feeling all the damn time and they dont even know it.

The characters in Streets of Rage have zero background or personality. They're literally just different sprites. Yeah, I'll pick the black guy sprite, because that's what I look like in real life. If there is no black guy sprite, that's fine too.

My point is that I am now an adult with a personality, and video game characters are so much more than they were then. I don't get a "good feeling" from playing as a black character who is nothing like me. I am so much more than my skin colour, and so are they. The fact that Ganondorf has dark skin and Link has light skin doesn't make me want to play as Ganondorf over Link. I want to play as Link because Link is the good guy and the hero I've spent countless hours playing as in his games. Their skin colour pales into irrelevance when they're an actual character with a background, and I can't relate at all to thinking so much about race and what colour people are that things like the race of characters in games are important to you. Like I just wouldn't even think of it.

I am certain that white gamers don't give a shit about the fact that characters like Link and Mario are white and don't feel anything as a result of their skin colour when they play as them - just as I don't.
 

Oniletter

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,245
To quote myself from the same topic a month ago:
Because if you'd think about the types of games featuring " humanoid characters" Nintendo likes to publish, you'd see that they almost always fall into 3 categories:

IPs established literal decades ago ( Mario, Metroid, Kid Icarus)

IPs featuring character creators ( everything Mii, Fire Emblem, Animal Crossing, Splatoon)

Ensemble casts ( Wonderful 101, ARMS)

The latter two always feature black characters.
Like, it's not like they are pumping out new white characters
I mean, yes " more minority representation" is a good thing full stop, but the specific way, I think, a lot of people would want it implemented in smash kind off flies in the face of how modern Nintendo designs their games ( ensemble casts and character creators if the game even features something resembling a human character). You can play as a black villager, Squidgirl and mii at least.
 
Last edited:
Nov 17, 2017
12,864
Not going to lie, first thing I saw is someone quote themselves as a "fat 32 year old male", probably more so in jest, and then someone quotes a picture of a pretty ugly and unattractive character. So yeah I saw it as a bad joke/light attack. The reason I have more of an issue with the tone the people who replied to him are using is because what he said is stupid and ignorant. That's something that can be worked on. But I don't understand how you can dismiss an entire group of people purely based on the color of their skin. Without knowing anything else at all about them. That sounds like insanity to me.
When it comes to issues unique to minorities? Yeah, I think it's fair to tell a white person dismissing your unique perspective that they come from a place a privilege and so it makes it very difficult for them to understand what it's like to want representation when they've been represented as the default their whole lives.


I'd 100% rather get a better developed and created character than someone who's just a brown skintone.
You realize that these aren't mutually exclusive, right? I will never get why people always fall back to this "I just want a good character, not diversity for diversity's sake" as if a minority character automatically means it's less of a character. Minorities always need to jump hurtles to be justified in media. You can have a white character be poorly written and it's just a bad character but a black character needs to be top quality and also make sense in the lore to exist. You can have a better developed and created character who also has brown skin. It's not difficult and it shouldn't be.
 

snazzums

Member
Nov 22, 2017
64
Are they actually inuit though? Like I know they're like chibi blob people, but they're skin tone doesn't really reflect it very well.
I obviously don't speak for the original designer, but their skin tone didn't appear to be super white in the original. I think the intent was that yes, they are Inuit.
 

Nepenthe

When the music hits, you feel no pain.
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
20,680
I am certain that white gamers don't give a shit about the fact that characters like Link and Mario are white and don't feel anything as a result of their skin colour when they play as them
Man. I wonder why white people wouldn't care to relate to white characters on the basis of race while living in the aftermath of European colonialism wherein one of the consequences was that whiteness is culturally presented as a default trait.
 

Komali

Member
Sep 25, 2018
476
I prefer Elma (she looks cool, never played XCX) over the hundreth Fire Emblem or Pokemon fighter tbh.
 

Biestmann

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,412
I'm black and I don't understand it either, so it's not just him.

In all the time I was playing games growing up I literally never gave any thought to the fact that the fictional characters in the games I was playing were a different race as me. If a black character was available I'd be likely to pick them, like in Streets of Rage for example. But I've never actually cared beyond that.

I identify far more with Michael than Franklin in GTAV, because Franklin is a street gangster and is nothing like me as a person. His skin colour is one small part of his character, just like it is for me. I have no affinity with a character just because they're a similar colour to me; they don't represent me and they have nothing to do with me. And someone doesn't not represent the kind of person I am just because they're white. This idea of race-based "representation" in fictional media is just so bizarre to me.

I think your stance to look beyond race despite being part of a minority is progressive, but understand that black people make up for a substantial part of the human race, and that their (lack of) representation in games does in no way come close to doing this fact justice. I am a straight, white guy myself, but absolutely want to play as more women, more minorities, more LGBTQ people. Because these people exist, and I want to experience life through their eyes in a way that is possible to me. Gaming provides that opportunity, only to completely squander it. And it shouldn't be that way.
 

DrArchon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,485
Man, what is it about asking for minority representation in video games that causes people to act like shitheels?

Hmmm. *thinkingemoji.png*
 

The Adder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,093
Are you one of those that think latinos can only be brown? lol
I am one of those pointing out you didn't call Misango definitively black until someone called you out on continuing a consistent pattern of minority groups not saying a word until it looks like black folks are going to get something.

Like, let me put it this way:

Have you advocated for Misango in Smash before?
If not, why not?
Why did you feel that, instead of coming in and saying "I want Misango for reasons x, y, and z" you instead felt the need to denigrate the black woman character to bolster your point?
 
Nov 17, 2017
12,864
Bro we had the same experiences.

I remember when I first saw The Boondocks strip and I was in love. I used to actually look forward to the newspaper every day and would wait till Friday for the color version.

I remember drawing dragonball characters and making black super saiyans. Man people dont know what it do to you.
I definitely started drawing more black characters after seeing the Boondocks. It was really meaningful to me. I was amazed that there were black kids in the newspaper comics. It was like someone was breaking the rules.

I don't think it's wrong to say that if you're white, you wouldn't really understand. If you're a PoC and you don't care, you do you but honestly I think that comes from just accepting things the way they are. Just like at some point in my childhood, I accepted that black people just couldn't be the heroes. I definitely lost my damn kid mind when Static Shock debuted on tv.