Smash Ultimate has 74 Characters, yet lacks Black/Brown characters (READ OP)

IntelliHeath said:

I'm really curious about people's opinions here about Elma since I have a feeling that it might be mixed feeling. My friend chose to not supports Elma because he felt that she was whitewashed when they revealed her real form. I would like to see some of you sharing your thoughts on this matters?

I really want Elma in because I really love her default design and all that, and Xenoblade 2 version make it even much better. I really adore the Elma's character designs since it was many time better than any female characters' designs in XB2 (Well, bar Morag)

Spoiler

Here is the picture of her real form:

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

I didn't know that this happened and I'm really disappointed to see this. That's awful.

This seems like a stretch when a large number of the roster isn't even human.

SuperiorTrashTalk said:

How long do I need to play on Wii Resort Island to unlock this skin tone?

Spoiler

I really hope Animal Crossing Switch just lets us be brown at the start.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Pocket Camp & (I think) Happy Home Designer gave you the option from the get-go, so I'd imagine that Animal Crossing Switch will follow suit.

SuperiorTrashTalk said:

How long do I need to play on Wii Resort Island to unlock this skin tone?

Spoiler

I really hope Animal Crossing Switch just lets us be brown at the start.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

I think it will. Sakurai probably included them once they checked with Animal Crossing developers about upcoming contents, like they did with Luigi Mansion 3.

This would make more sense if the whole roster consisted of humans .....I don't really think the lineup lacks packs of any important characters.

You're Protecteded said:

A lot of these human characters go wayyyy back to a time when, sadly, black characters were not much of a thing in videogames. Now, modern characters are coming out more diverse. I don't think Nintendo is at fault here.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

I mean, Nintendo could still do better, but we're at least seeing progress on their part. The problem is that Smash Ultimate's roster was ultimately decided before a good chunk of that progress started to bear fruit.

Biestmann said:

Funny when animals and aliens have better representations than real life people.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

But none of the characters in Smash Bros. are real...

Seriously. They are all fictional made up video game characters. Whether it's Link or Isabelle they are equally made up.

Literally none of us are like link, like Mario, like Ike, like any of them. I am white and don't feel like I associate with any of the characters in the game. Does that mean I'm not represented? They could all be black, blue, or green. None of them actually represent me. So I just don't find myself caring.

Some of the characters are multiracial in the game with different skins even. Not even miis really feel like... Me.

I a fat 32 year old white male who has dreams of more. But I don't see anything that represents me.

Not do I really give a crap. I don't play Smash Bros to self associate to characters

brainchild said:

We have at least one now:

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

holy shit

Forkball said:

Projection is a major aspect of this discussion. Take the Splatoon 2 girl Inkling. Is she black? Mexican? Asian? A tanned white person? Everyone has a different perspective and none are essentially wrong because the developers purposefully left it ambiguous.

And just because someone is a ninja doesn't mean they are Japanese. Did you not watch any 80s action film?

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

My point is, despite me being a white American, I didn't magically assume that someone whose design and game take a LOT of cues from Japanese trends was actually, in fact, white like me!
Likewise, I would not expect a Japanese person to assume that games where the overwhelming majority of designs, regions, equipment, names, social structure etc are all very plainly of European design, are actually all just Japanese people who all dress up like Europeans with no indicator to lead them to that, outside of "Well I'm Japanese and so these guys are all Japanese despite all the heavy European designs just because the game didn't explicitly tell me they AREN'T Japanese".

Ganondorf is always a kind of weird tone. Like he's Gerudo, which is like Zelda middle-eastern, but his skin colour isn't the same as the other Gerudo and he looks like, sicklier/"im evil" skin tone. So I think while Ganondorf should could because he is supposed to be brown, his actual skin colour in the games doesn't reflect it well. So like Dyle said, he is a person of colour, just with an asterisk.

I think the biggest issue is Nintendo should just make more people of colour characters. They are doing good things with the customisation options for character (like Inklings and Villagers having multiple skin tones) but they are in the "create a character" type where they can be anything. And while that is a good thing to have, it isn't fully the same as having a slow taken up by an actual, always 100% person of colour.

Like, would it hurt to have a black Fire Emblem lord? We have one that turns into a weird dragon horse and one that is basically a gender swap of an older lord. Because we're not going to get any non main character FE rep.

Aroll said:

But none of the characters in Smash Bros. are real...

Seriously. They are all fictional made up video game characters. Whether it's Link or Isabelle they are equally made up.

Literally none of us are like link, like Mario, like Ike, like any of them. I am white and don't feel like I associate with any of the characters in the game. Does that mean I'm not represented? They could all be black, blue, or green. None of them actually represent me. So I just don't find myself caring.

Some of the characters are multiracial in the game with different skins even. Not even miis really feel like... Me.

I a fat 32 year old white male who has dreams of more. But I don't see anything that represents me.

Not do I really give a crap. I don't play Smash Bros to self associate to characters

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

You should just be quiet since you're white, you probably dont and never will understand. By default, you feel like that because you are represented and you dont even know it.

Aroll said:

But none of the characters in Smash Bros. are real...

Seriously. They are all fictional made up video game characters. Whether it's Link or Isabelle they are equally made up.

Literally none of us are like link, like Mario, like Ike, like any of them. I am white and don't feel like I associate with any of the characters in the game. Does that mean I'm not represented? They could all be black, blue, or green. None of them actually represent me. So I just don't find myself caring.

Some of the characters are multiracial in the game with different skins even. Not even miis really feel like... Me.

I a fat 32 year old white male who has dreams of more. But I don't see anything that represents me.

Not do I really give a crap. I don't play Smash Bros to self associate to characters

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

You seriously dont get the point at all.

Wamb0wneD said:

What? No. The opposite is the case. If the figurehead of the franchise can not get in as a character why would anyone else from that franchise? People expecting Twintelle are just setting themselves up for disappointment.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

ARMS is a fighting game and, as such, the 'Figurehead' of the Franchise is flexible. Mortal Kombat's intended figurehead for example, was Liu Kang with Johnny Cage as the Ken to his Ryu, but SubZ and Scorpion overtook them in popularity. Neither of those characters have ever been the primary focus of a mainline MK, but they are clearly the figureheads of the franchise now.

People like Spring Man, but Twintelle, Ribbon Girl, and MinMin were the clear standouts of the base ARMS roster. And Nintendo has no commitment to Spring Man tying their hands to keeping him the 'Main Character'. Not even story. With him as a trophy, that frees them up to choose a more popular character, if they want to. They are also free to refocus the next game on more popular characters.

Long story short, Spring Man is Liu Kang.

I can't think of any off the top of my head but are there any Nintendo characters that are Hispanic or Latino?

Aroll said:

But none of the characters in Smash Bros. are real...

Seriously. They are all fictional made up video game characters. Whether it's Link or Isabelle they are equally made up.

Literally none of us are like link, like Mario, like Ike, like any of them. I am white and don't feel like I associate with any of the characters in the game. Does that mean I'm not represented? They could all be black, blue, or green. None of them actually represent me. So I just don't find myself caring.

Some of the characters are multiracial in the game with different skins even. Not even miis really feel like... Me.

I a fat 32 year old white male who has dreams of more. But I don't see anything that represents me.

Not do I really give a crap. I don't play Smash Bros to self associate to characters

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Yeah no shit, it's easy to dismiss concerns of representation when white is the default and you see yourself everywhere. What a dumb post.

I see what you mean, but how many brown characters are there in Nintendo games anyway? I suppose maybe a gerudo would work, but we do have Ganondorf.
And a whole bunch of animals.

I would have loved Twintelle or maybe Impa's OoT incarnation.

Jazzem said:

Yeah this is a bit of a shame, the roster hasn't ended up as diverse as I'd like gender or race wise. Really hoping this can be bumped a bit with DLC, Twintelle as stated would be a terrific inclusion on that front

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

So if it's not as diverse "as you'd like", then what additions would you have made?

Finale Fireworker said:

I didn't know that this happened and I'm really disappointed to see this. That's awful.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

To be fair to Xenoblade Chronicles X, that is basically the entirety of the story telling that game.

"I'm really disappointed to see this. That's awful".

Though, mostly it's because it dangles interesting plot threads and just never follows up on them. One of the few things they do follow up on is that, and yeah. It's disappointing. Not just representation wise but because it wasn't really needed and was just a twist for the sake of it. Which really just makes it worse.

Aroll said:

But none of the characters in Smash Bros. are real...

Seriously. They are all fictional made up video game characters. Whether it's Link or Isabelle they are equally made up.

Literally none of us are like link, like Mario, like Ike, like any of them. I am white and don't feel like I associate with any of the characters in the game. Does that mean I'm not represented? They could all be black, blue, or green. None of them actually represent me. So I just don't find myself caring.

Some of the characters are multiracial in the game with different skins even. Not even miis really feel like... Me.

I a fat 32 year old white male who has dreams of more. But I don't see anything that represents me.

Not do I really give a crap. I don't play Smash Bros to self associate to characters

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

You are white. You are represented everywhere, to the point where you don't even have to think or care about it.

When you've spent your life not being represented and have to see/experience all forms of entertainment through the eyes of a white person, yes, you do think about it and care.

vestan said:

Yeah no shit, it's easy to dismiss concerns of representation when white is the default and you see yourself everywhere. What a dumb post.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Seriously I thought it was a kid or something so I give it a pass but then said he 32 lol

wtf lol

mikeys_legendary said:

What do you mean? If they include brown Shantae I don't see how it wouldn't count.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

If you followed the IP you would know. As much as it still annoys me that I had to tan my Villager in Animal Crossing New Leaf now they are trying to put a black villager as an option in Smash hmmmph.
I will not appreciate Shantae as a PoC when the devs kept changing her skin from dark to light and back again, felt like they could not make the commitment for the sake of marketing and sales. Not a good history there for PoC. It matters what you do with these characters because PoC rarely get to see them in games.

Black folks already have to give characters like Elma and Twintelle a pass because they come from a long history of the Japanese meme of Black Skinned person with White Hair. It is a really weird thing you find in anime and manga always this theme of dark skin and white hair, like they really are trying to avoid creating a black character so they made this race of white haired people.

Peleo said:

Smash Bros is reflective of gaming as a whole, there simply aren't enough notable characters to chose from.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

This.

But i imagine an option to "alter" the colour of your character must be introduced in all fighting games.
Like dark souls, you can have the same char from pale white to total black.

MELLO said:

You should just be quiet since you're white, you probably dont and never will understand. By default, you feel like that because you are represented and you dont even know it.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Reaallly not a fan of this weird gatekeeping. I'm not white, but completely dismissing someone's point because they are is sorta insane.

The main thing Nintendo needs to work in is creating LEADING PROTAGONISTS that are non-white. They are capable of creating black and brown characters, but they rarely are the main characters of games, making them unlikely to end up as playable fighters in Smash. Yes, Urbosa would be a cool fighter, but being a one off character in a Zelda game that is only really featured in flashbacks and a small portion of the gameplay makes it hard to justify making her a unique character on the same billing as Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf.

The Adder said:

ARMS is a fighting game and, as such, the 'Figurehead' of the Franchise is flexible. Mortal Kombat's intended figurehead for example, was Liu Kang with Johnny Cage as the Ken to his Ryu, but SubZ and Scorpion overtook them in popularity. Neither of those characters have ever been the primary focus of a mainline MK, but they are clearly the figureheads of the franchise now.

People like Spring Man, but Twintelle, Ribbon Girl, and MinMin were the clear standouts of the base ARMS roster. And Nintendo has no commitment to Spring Man tying their hands to keeping him the 'Main Character'. Not even story. With him as a trophy, that frees them up to choose a more popular character, if they want to. They are also free to refocus the next game on more popular characters.

Long story short, Spring Man is Liu Kang.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Actually, Liu Kang had other problems beyond just not being popular, as he didn't represent everything that Mortal Kombat was about. If you want to get more of an analysis on Spring Man compared to the likes of Ryu & Liu Kang, check out my thread on the subject. I also cover why Twintelle may not do a very good job of being the face of ARMS.

TL;DR: Spring Man represents everything you need to know about ARMS with his design alone, which is something that neither Ribbon Girl or Twintelle do as good of a job at. That alone puts Spring Man closer to Ryu than Liu Kang. The fact that the graphic novel is Spring Man-focused shows that Nintendo's still staying the course.

With that said, I could see Twintelle replacing Ribbon Girl as the leading lady.

ToiseOfChoice said:

Oh they absolutely need to do better, but for people to say "I don't even know who they'd add" when we have good choices among main characters, runaway fan favorites, and final bosses from successful games released in the last decade is strange. It's entirely on Sakurai if he doesn't add Elma or Twintelle or Mr. Sandman in favor of New Fire Emblem Lord or Bronto Burt.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Good call. Hopefully ppl are vocal enough and he listens to them

Also, this is kind of a cop out, but Mii Fighters can be any race you want.

Splader said:

Reaallly not a fan of this weird gatekeeping. I'm not white, but completely dismissing someone's point because they are is sorta insane.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Just like dismissing people concerns about representation.

That is what will pissed people off.

Braaier said:

Good call. Hopefully ppl are vocal enough and he listens to them

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Forget that. I don't want characters added in smash purely to add diversity to the roster. I want fun, interesting and well known characters instead. I'd take Isaac over Twintelle anyday, (and especially Banjo).

Doc Louis should be playable. His final smash should be him running you over with his bike.

MELLO said:

Seriously I thought it was a kid or something so I give it a pass but then said he 32 lol

wtf lol

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Yeah lmao, no idea why these guys feel the need to comment at all.

SuperiorTrashTalk said:

How long do I need to play on Wii Resort Island to unlock this skin tone?

Spoiler

I really hope Animal Crossing Switch just lets us be brown at the start.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

They gon have to since you could in the home decor and pocket camp

At least they're a little better about it with the Mii, Villager and Inkling alt colors. Twintelle should've made the roster, tbh.

Splader said:

Forget that. I don't want characters added in smash purely to add diversity to the roster. I want fun, interesting and well known characters instead. I'd take Isaac over Twintelle anyday, (and especially Banjo).

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

But yeah, let's add another sword guy because Twintelle would just be there for diversity and otherwise offers no interesting play style.

Splader said:

Forget that. I don't want characters added in smash purely to add diversity to the roster. I want fun, interesting and well known characters instead. I'd take Isaac over Twintelle anyday, (and especially Banjo).

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

I read this argument so many times now in different forms.

Splader said:

Reaallly not a fan of this weird gatekeeping. I'm not white, but completely dismissing someone's point because they are is sorta insane.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

He obviously doesn't understand why this thread was created. Hes pretty ignorant and because of him being white is why he doesnt understand.

Just remember that these are old characters many times. Also, "white" people are the vast majority in North America and definitely Japan. Game makers design their games to sell to the most people. All that said, I believe there are dark skinned costumes for Splatoon kid and Mii. So modern games are accounting for more skin colors. It's hard to think of many dark skinned videogame characters in general. Mr Sandman, Twintelle, Barrett, ???? Not exactly the most popular characters.

Splader said:

Reaallly not a fan of this weird gatekeeping. I'm not white, but completely dismissing someone's point because they are is sorta insane.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

It's pointing out his ignorance more than anything really.

Loudninja said:

Just like dismissing people concerns about representation.

That is what will pissed people off.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Sure, both are pretty sucky, but for the most part when it comes to dismissing representation concerns, it comes off as individual opinion. Something like: "I don't see it", or "I don't think it matters in a Japanese developed character focused game like Smash"
But when you have people attack someone because of their race, is that not coming off as a little bit much?

Astral/H3X said:

My point is, despite me being a white American, I didn't magically assume that someone whose design and game take a LOT of cues from Japanese trends was actually, in fact, white like me!
Likewise, I would not expect a Japanese person to assume that games where the overwhelming majority of designs, regions, equipment, names, social structure etc are all very plainly of European design, are actually all just Japanese people who all dress up like Europeans with no indicator to lead them to that, outside of "Well I'm Japanese and so these guys are all Japanese despite all the heavy European designs just because the game didn't explicitly tell me they AREN'T Japanese".

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

I'm pretty sure no one thinks the characters in Fire Emblem are Japanese, as the game clearly states that the characters are from Crimea, Ferox, Gallia, etc. Do Americans think Fire Emblem takes place in Europe or something?

Mr. Sandman should absolutely be in. He's the final boss in Punch-Out Wii (not counting DK) and doesn't rely on any sort of stereotype.

I've been wanting him in since Smash Wii U and briefly got my hopes up during the Ken reveal when you couldn't see who Little Mac was fighting.

Elma from Xenoblade Chronicles X is a strong contender for DLC, so there's still hope

Finale Fireworker said:

I didn't know that this happened and I'm really disappointed to see this. That's awful.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

I was disappointed in this too. I think there's some concept art floating around where I would've greatly preferred that. It even looks better.

I'm at least glad that her true form is only a thing in the very last cutscene and they immediately give you the option to keep her default look.

Aroll said:

I a fat 32 year old white male who has dreams of more. But I don't see anything that represents me.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

KtSlime said:

No reason to be hostile, I'm just informing you of how the characters are thought of in Japan, where I live.

If you want to learn a bit about 無国籍 have a read: https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=_hSRDQAAQBAJ&pg=PA41&lpg=PA41&dq=mukokuseki+anime&source=bl&ots=0q0Kjf_HRe&sig=g9M3DVzudxnZDvq-W0VS9PgLISg&hl=ja&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwju17qX9rXeAhUKd94KHTBuBDgQ6AEwE3oECAEQAQ#v=onepage&q=mukokuseki anime&f=false

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Maybe I'm not reading this for long enough, but everything here seems to spell out that, regardless of the setting, regardless of where the story takes place, it is still seen as being a product that represents Japan, ie, "It is a game made in and by the country of Japan". Nothing I am reading indicates that characters with distinctly European features and names are, themselves, of Japanese ethnicity, but that the character was written and designed with a 'Japanese mindset', to paraphrase in my own words. They may impart Japanese values and motives on these characters, but not their ethnicity.

To put it succintly, this article backs up, "Fire Emblem is a game made in Japan, with a Japanese Flavor", and not, "Fire Emblem is a game that takes place in a regionally Japanese world with ethnically Japanese characters".

EDIT: The Ghost in the Shell example provided does not really apply to Fire Emblem, as no one in Fire Emblem has a Japanese name. (They may have a distinctly Japanese person's idea of what a European name sounds like, but they aren't Japanese names.)

How many humans/humanoids in the roster? I think that would be a more accurate description

MELLO said:

He obviously doesn't understand why this thread was created. Hes pretty ignorant and because of him being white is why he doesnt understand.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

You're dumbing down basically his entire being into his race... I don't get that, and I don't think I ever really will. Yes his point was pretty damn ignorant, but maybe it's more so because he's, you know, ignorant on the issues? Literally dismissing anything he'd ever say because of his race sounds insane to me.

SuperiorTrashTalk said:

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

lmaoooooooo

Astral/H3X said:

My point is, despite me being a white American, I didn't magically assume that someone whose design and game take a LOT of cues from Japanese trends was actually, in fact, white like me!
Likewise, I would not expect a Japanese person to assume that games where the overwhelming majority of designs, regions, equipment, names, social structure etc are all very plainly of European design, are actually all just Japanese people who all dress up like Europeans with no indicator to lead them to that, outside of "Well I'm Japanese and so these guys are all Japanese despite all the heavy European designs just because the game didn't explicitly tell me they AREN'T Japanese".

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

The point is that some do not make that connection between a fantasy world and real life counterpart because the story does not frame it in such a way. Yes something like Fire Emblem is obviously inspired by European feudalism and romanticism, but many people don't consider Marth to be "European" or white, he is from.... whatever the Fire Emblem world is called. I haven't played The Messenger so I don't know if that takes place in our world, but you are projecting your knowledge about how ninjas are portrayed in our world into a fictional (?) one.

It's the old "Why are all anime characters WHITE?" routine. Because the audience imprints their ideas onto characters, often in spite of (or because of) the creator's intentions.

KtSlime said:

I'm pretty sure no one thinks the characters in Fire Emblem are Japanese, as the game clearly states that the characters are from Crimea, Ferox, Gallia, etc. Do American's think Fire Emblem takes place in Europe or something?

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Many Americans were introduced to Fire Emblem through Marth and Roy in Melee, which were Japanese-exclusive who spoke Japanese. They continued to speak Japanese until Smash Ultimate (although Roy still speaks Japanese, I believe).

The association with Fire Emblem as being "Japanese" comes from that. If you don't play the games, but do play Smash Bros, I could definitely see people having this misunderstanding.

I think my head canon made Little mac Hispanic since punch out 2009 came out