I'd be disappointed if one of my CS professors told me not to take a music course because music was not accepted nor appreciated in his department...
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Hey art teachers, stop discouraging student's love for anime and manga art
- Thread starter ElBoxy
- Start date
I'd be disappointed if one of my CS professors told me not to take a music course because music was not accepted nor appreciated in his department...
If he wants to draw Bugs Bunny, that's great, but you don't need to go to school for that and the teachers shouldn't just let you do that.
Now that you mention it. Shorthand facial expressions is totally something I would have to a agree have no place anywhere on a setting of learning. One would basically be copying someone else's shortcuts that have been custom made for the specific style they designed. There's nothing worse than seeing people plaster several of these on top of one another because they don't trust that the facial expression alone was good enough to convey the desired emotion, and often these are just not compatible at all with the style they are using.
My art teacher in high school, over 10 years ago (holy shit), had this series of books:
Which was made by actual artists from Japan who knew what the fuck they were talking about, and included chapters on proportion and the like similar to the Loomis method along with guidelines for different manga character archetypes. I feel blessed that my teacher knew what was up. Those Peter Gray books are actual crimes against humanity and should probably count as hate crimes against the Japanese. If my art student was learning from one of those, I'd be "elitist" about manga too.
That's not the most pressing issue I see, lol
It is funny to see this and Andrew Loomis mentioned together. When I was doodling as a high school student way way way back in the day of the late 90's This very book as well as all of Andrew Loomis's work was recommended to me. I still have all my books as they are great reference material even though I still suck at drawing.
2 of my cousins work at Riot Games art department. For them it was mostly all portfolio.
I consider myself a bit of an artist. I've won a couple of art shows, sold some commissions, nothing truly noteworthy, but I like drawing. I used to be a lot more passionate about it.
When I was a senior in highschool, they had a new art teacher come in. He claimed to be responsible for a lot of the concept art for the transformers movies and some of the art in the Coca Cola headquarters. I don't know if either thing is true or not but I believed him back then, and respected him immensely. For one brief moment he was my inspiration and hero. I had been wanting to become a manga artist and writer or an animator for quite a while. So I took that inspiration and ran with it, started making what i could, trying to refine it and become an artist worthy of paying attention to.
One day in class he walked over to see what I was working on. I was drawing a new character I had come up with, and I was eager for his input and advice. The first thing out of his mouth was that I should stop wasting my time drawing garbage, and that anime wasn't real art. He made fun of me for daring to draw something like that in his classroom, and started talking about marketability and how only pathetic losers think that kind of stuff is art.
I was devastated. This man, who I had considered perhaps the only hero I had ever had, had just told me my dream was nothing but trash. After that I stopped drawing very much, and completely stopped drawing things I liked,and I stopped enjoying my own art all together. After I graduated highschool, I put my pen down for a full four years before I would even try to draw anything again. And I still cant always work up the willpower to draw when I sit down, even though my desire to create is the same, because ever since then I've doubted everything I've drawn and wanted to make.
Please, educators, parents, everyone, don't tell your children they shouldn't enjoy the art they make. Don't tell them it's not profitable, or that its pathetic, or that they should give up. Encourage them, give them constructive criticism, help them to keep growing as an artist. You never know how profound an affect a careless comment can affect a kid.
Sorry if this came across as whiny or long winded.
When I was a senior in highschool, they had a new art teacher come in. He claimed to be responsible for a lot of the concept art for the transformers movies and some of the art in the Coca Cola headquarters. I don't know if either thing is true or not but I believed him back then, and respected him immensely. For one brief moment he was my inspiration and hero. I had been wanting to become a manga artist and writer or an animator for quite a while. So I took that inspiration and ran with it, started making what i could, trying to refine it and become an artist worthy of paying attention to.
One day in class he walked over to see what I was working on. I was drawing a new character I had come up with, and I was eager for his input and advice. The first thing out of his mouth was that I should stop wasting my time drawing garbage, and that anime wasn't real art. He made fun of me for daring to draw something like that in his classroom, and started talking about marketability and how only pathetic losers think that kind of stuff is art.
I was devastated. This man, who I had considered perhaps the only hero I had ever had, had just told me my dream was nothing but trash. After that I stopped drawing very much, and completely stopped drawing things I liked,and I stopped enjoying my own art all together. After I graduated highschool, I put my pen down for a full four years before I would even try to draw anything again. And I still cant always work up the willpower to draw when I sit down, even though my desire to create is the same, because ever since then I've doubted everything I've drawn and wanted to make.
Please, educators, parents, everyone, don't tell your children they shouldn't enjoy the art they make. Don't tell them it's not profitable, or that its pathetic, or that they should give up. Encourage them, give them constructive criticism, help them to keep growing as an artist. You never know how profound an affect a careless comment can affect a kid.
Sorry if this came across as whiny or long winded.
This also applies to Manga and anime as well. The good ones are drawn by people with solid basis in 3 dimensional understanding and construction. Bad ones are just copying the style.
OP
OP
Basic fundamentals aren't bad and should be taught, but some horizons need to be expanded. It gets boring when your taught the basics but you don't know where to go from there.
Yeah, the reality is that the types of people that get told "don't draw anime" in art schools are often the ones that need to hear it the most.
Encouraging anime style art in High School can lead to anime avatars. We should really weigh the pros and cons.
This is how work/life happens. You need a grade or want a job, do what's asked not what you want. Once you have the job then you can affect change. Being on the outside has little effect on the inside,.
If you cant or wont grasp the basics, then theres nothing to "expand".
While the value of formal art education may be debated, to be honest instructors know that kids are a: lazy and b: don't grasp the difference between stylization and foundation.
Sure, many instructors may not know much about the fine points of japanese animation and they may disrespect it out of ignorance. But I am willing to bet they do know when a student is trying to skip learning the basics and just looking for a quick guide to copying what they think is cool.
Sure, many instructors may not know much about the fine points of japanese animation and they may disrespect it out of ignorance. But I am willing to bet they do know when a student is trying to skip learning the basics and just looking for a quick guide to copying what they think is cool.
OP
OP
I'm not arguing to not get the basics. You should get the basics. It's what happens next where some teachers aren't interested in helping you.
From my very vague understanding of drawing. You should focus on having good fundamentals and exploring art styles from there to find your own unique take on something you like. I feel like if you go into art school with only one style in mind you might rob yourself of a chance to grow your style and it would hamper you. On the other hand if you already have all that down and decided something anime like is what you want to do. Teachers should fuck off and not try to bully you off it.
Sorry if I sound really incorrect I only doodled for a bit in highschool and only ever really listened to half the things my teacher told me lol.
Sorry if I sound really incorrect I only doodled for a bit in highschool and only ever really listened to half the things my teacher told me lol.
This was definitely beyond fundamentals. This was the advanced art three class. you had to take multiple years of focused 2d art lessons to take this class.
I mean yeah, fundamentals are important to go back to, but the guy had me draw the same elephant 40 something times as opposed to letting me draw something I was interested in. The class was supposed to be for expanding our horizons and building portfolios. Unfortunately, drawing the same elephant over and over only helped me learn to draw one elephant from memory. I only got to start drawing flowers and stuff at the end of the year because I pushed back.
The thing is. A lot of teachers are assholes. I remember in High School during the 90's how so many of them hated 3D graphics and photoshop. The thing is, if you want to be a good artist, regardless of style. You have to draw from life. Just to get a sense of anatomy and shapes in the real world and so on. Drawing from life helps you with gesture drawing. Many artist will tell you that. From oil painters to manga artist. Here's a good video.
Sad part is seeing his IMDB I'm sure the students that applied are more talented than he is
One, you don't need to go to art school to become an artist (lots of artists suggest you don't given how expensive it is)
Two, you don't know how much porn artists make, do you.
Tens of thousands? That's adorable... Try hundreds of thousands. Average student loan debt of graduates at the school I taught was like $150~250K after 4 years.
You should explore this topic on Twitter and listen to the pros working in visdev and comics who got their start in, gasp, anime art, instead of making yourself look foolish.
In my experience it was more of teachers telling students to study more realistic art first rather than just trying to draw manga even then they never specifically said don't draw it. It's more of studying the basics of anatomy so you can draw more believable proportions and change it accordingly to match any style. It's the same when you are sculpting and everyone wants to jump ahead and start doing monsters but in order to really do them well you gotta know proper anatomy to make them more believable. It's very much people trying to skip ahead without learning the basics. Which is fine there is always exceptions to every rule.
In general though it's very possible to get into art careers being completely self taught due to people caring more about your portfolio and what you can do rather where you went to school.
In general though it's very possible to get into art careers being completely self taught due to people caring more about your portfolio and what you can do rather where you went to school.
- that's exactly what i'm saying. going to art school to draw anime is a completely absurd proposition.
- nope, i don't.
i can promise you i'm already aware of the twitter celebs that make a living drawing anime
again. going to art school to learn that is absolutely ridiculous
I can't speak for art school, but if it's anything like creative writing, then I'm absolutely on the professor's side here.
High artistic endeavour comes from observation of the actual world. It has some kind of relationship with the real world, be that purely visual, emotional, psychological, etc. It can be influenced by previous works but it must, fundamentally, be new and add something to what came before.
"Genre" art, written or visual, is related more closely to other examples of its genre than it is to the real world. That's why SF, westerns, romances, etc, all have common themes and structures. It can add something new, but it's more important that it correctly follows the rules of its genre. Maybe that seems restrictive, but ask yourself, for example: is a high fantasy novel with no magic, only humans, set in a real country actually "high fantasy" any more?
Both kinds of art are equally valid, and there are good and bad examples of each, but generally they have quite different purposes and have to be learned differently. Don't go to art school and expect to get away with only looking to anime for inspiration.
High artistic endeavour comes from observation of the actual world. It has some kind of relationship with the real world, be that purely visual, emotional, psychological, etc. It can be influenced by previous works but it must, fundamentally, be new and add something to what came before.
"Genre" art, written or visual, is related more closely to other examples of its genre than it is to the real world. That's why SF, westerns, romances, etc, all have common themes and structures. It can add something new, but it's more important that it correctly follows the rules of its genre. Maybe that seems restrictive, but ask yourself, for example: is a high fantasy novel with no magic, only humans, set in a real country actually "high fantasy" any more?
Both kinds of art are equally valid, and there are good and bad examples of each, but generally they have quite different purposes and have to be learned differently. Don't go to art school and expect to get away with only looking to anime for inspiration.
For me, the biggest argument that holds weight is ensuring that the artist is developing a style of their own, not rehashing a style they love. There's always some degree of inspiration, but anime and manga can be a particularly narrow one depending on the influences. Sure, you have your masterpieces like Beserk, Blade of the Immortal, and others--but a good artist should be finding their own space.
Its definitely important to know the fundamentals and show that you know them but its not a secret that many art schools will scoff regardless of your apparent skill level. Ive seen topics on this from many artists I follow with the same story of how art schools are bullshit on the matter. Its very clear his general mindset on the subject is not a good one. He is part of the problem. And also yeah, look at that fucking IMDB page. Lmao.
Er how does that disprove his message of "don't go to art school to draw anime" ?
Echoing what others have already said, learn your fundamentals before you go into something stylized. There were a lot of students in my year at Sheridan that refused to draw anything other than anime and never really improved. Like if all you want to do is draw anime, why are you going to a Western Art school?
Not just portfolio, who you know in this industry matters immensely as well. Maybe even moreso
Not just portfolio, who you know in this industry matters immensely as well. Maybe even moreso
I love a lot of anime eque art and I've taken a lot of art classes... I cannot stress how important it is to learn the fundamentals BEFORE you branch out and start experimenting with styles you like.
The instructors at my school were generally pretty positive about anime style, but they were focused more on production art so I guess as long as you were cranking out work they were happy.
I was helping my professors with Portfolio review one year (we help them sort stuff and give them our opinion)
and the amount of bad anime (also bad street art) was staggering.
But of course, that could have been bad anything that is trending. Its just really tough to see who the applicant "is" when you
are just copying someone else's shortcut of a human.
A huge part of these review meetings was also "whats the current THING".
Whatever the thing was, if your stuff was doing IT and it was not excellent, the Profs were so tired of seeing it that your chances were nearly zero.
and the amount of bad anime (also bad street art) was staggering.
But of course, that could have been bad anything that is trending. Its just really tough to see who the applicant "is" when you
are just copying someone else's shortcut of a human.
A huge part of these review meetings was also "whats the current THING".
Whatever the thing was, if your stuff was doing IT and it was not excellent, the Profs were so tired of seeing it that your chances were nearly zero.
You can find a whole bunch of them in here.
https://forum.encyclopediadramatica.rs/threads/how-to-draw-manga-books.6957/
OP
OP
*looks at the number of action shows where designers and storyboard artists are hired based on heavily anime-influenced portfolios.*
I was literally looking at a storyboard director position for 'anime-styled action series'
Keep talking.
There's a distinct difference between artists drawing anime and the people badly imitating shit they've seen anime do while unable to develop and think for themselves.
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My art program instituted an anime ban against a single student. Every single assignment they turned in was bad anime, clearly "heavily inspired" by existing art.
They were told that if they turned in one more piece of anime, they were going to get an automatic fail.
They dropped out.
(Everyone else was allowed to do whatever the hell they wanted. Anime included.)
They were told that if they turned in one more piece of anime, they were going to get an automatic fail.
They dropped out.
(Everyone else was allowed to do whatever the hell they wanted. Anime included.)
Gave Picasso the skills necessary to paint:
I don't think blanket bans are a good idea. But anyone wanting to be an artist should be able to draw actual people, and not hide behind visual cliches and stylization.
As someone who taught art classes at a non-profit community art school for a year or so, I definitely had to ask one of my students to draw something other than Keroro Gunso fanart for one of our projects.
Granted I was doing Outlaw Star fanart at her age, so I get it, but part of getting an art education is doing things outside of the same general style.
Granted I was doing Outlaw Star fanart at her age, so I get it, but part of getting an art education is doing things outside of the same general style.
I we are comparing art to other disciplines, I suppose some analogies would be: computer scientists who only want to program in functional languages, philosophy students who only want to take classes in utilitarian ethics, or whatever. If you are taking art classes, you are expected to learn certain fundamentals. If your portfolio consists of anime/manga that conforms to those standards, then fine - but then, presumably, you mastered the fundamentals.
EDIT: better examples might be MFA students who wanted to specialize in Japanese-style woodblock prints, or ceramics student who wanted to specialize in mengei-style pottery. The difference being that those are "established" forms of art.
EDIT: better examples might be MFA students who wanted to specialize in Japanese-style woodblock prints, or ceramics student who wanted to specialize in mengei-style pottery. The difference being that those are "established" forms of art.
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