Red Dead Redemption 2 DF Analysis (Read OP)

Dave. · Oct 31, 2018

Piggychan said:

Good video. EvilBoris visualization technique works great in video!

Disagree with Richard, who seems to think the XB1X forced supersampling in all scenarios being superior (clever even?) to the user having options at the system level. Imo Sony's design was initially superior in theory, but badly let down by developers - even first party ones! But now with the supersample checkbox, it is near ideal. It would certainly NOT be improved by removing the options and forcing downsampling at all times! As he says, it makes the developer put options "in the game" for everything, but as shown by historical PS4 Pro implementations in general, and even in this game with the sharpness setting and HDR toggle on X1X - they cannot be trusted to do so in every case! Taken to the logical conclusioni, he should think the X1X would be improved by removing the system wide HDR toggle - obviously not an improvement!

Dark1x said:
I mean, what do you want them to say? The resolution choice was made by the dev team. It's not actually broken and it's not like support could really share any info that would help.

Isn't this being a bit kind ? Is it common to pixel count the 4K modes of God of War and H:ZD at 1920x2160? I was under the impression a working reconstruction always produced an output that is counted to the full target resolution, the method to determining it's intermediate buffer from studying / counting artefacts. Whereas this game produces actual half-res screens at times with no reconstruction (most of the time?). If true, I'd classify that as "broken" and not "artistic choice". Like a car that's brakes only work 10% of the time, lol. Though, I could very well be way off in my understanding here.

I don't think I can capture 4K screenshots with a PS4 on a 1080p TV regardless of settings, right?

Putty · Nov 1, 2018

I tried turning SS off and nope, i much prefer it on.

Wackamole · Nov 1, 2018

Putty said:
I tried turning SS off and nope, i much prefer it on.

Same here. But maybe it differs for people depending on the screen-size. Such mixed reports..

Putty · Nov 1, 2018

32" and I sit 2 ft from my screen 8)

BladeX · Nov 1, 2018

I swear to god this game is making me go crazy...

4K OLED LG 2017 C7

When playing in 4K and i go to the ps4 pro menu and i change the resolution, the 1080p mode looks significantly worse.

If I close the game and restart it having forcing 1080p mode (instead of changing it while I am playing in 4K) then the 1080p mode looks much cleaner.

Why does that happen?

Same deal happens if I am in 1080p and I go back to 4K via the PS4 Pro menu. The 4K doesnt show any improvement. Only if I close the game and relaunch it while 4K output is enabled, do I get the proper 4K image.

I dont understand any of this and I am getting really pissed about it.

Wackamole · Nov 1, 2018

BladeX said:
I swear to god this game is making me go crazy...

4K OLED LG 2017 C7

When playing in 4K and i go to the ps4 pro menu and i change the resolution, the 1080p mode looks significantly worse.

If I close the game and restart it having forcing 1080p mode (instead of changing it while I am playing in 4K) then the 1080p mode looks much cleaner.

Why does that happen?

Same deal happens if I am in 1080p and I go back to 4K via the PS4 Pro menu. The 4K doesnt show any improvement. Only if I close the game and relaunch it while 4K output is enabled, do I get the proper 4K image.

I dont understand any of this and I am getting really pissed about it.

Just keep it at the one you enjoy the most and play it, haha. I'm playing downsampled on 1080P screen and i think it looks good. Rockstar kinda fucked up a bit with some settings but there is always a mode that looks good enough to really enjoy the game i think. Game is so great looking that a bit of softness won't hurt it.

Nooblet · Nov 1, 2018

It's a big thread so it's probably answered but I wanna ask. Does disabling supersampling on Pro actually forces the game to render at 1080P and perform better? Or is it still internally rendering at CBR 4K and just outputting at 1080P?

Edit: Seems like it does boost framerate.

Lifejumper · Nov 1, 2018

Nooblet said:
It's a big thread so it's probably answered but I wanna ask. Does disabling supersampling on Pro actually forces the game to render at 1080P and perform better? Or is it still internally rendering at CBR 4K and just outputting at 1080P?

Turning of ss gives you locked 30 fps.

BladeX · Nov 1, 2018

Can Dark1X confirm something to me? When you guys change the PS4 Pro resolution in your metrics/analysis, do you just go into the PS4 menu while the game is running and force 1080p (and vice versa for 4K), or do you quit the game, force the 1080p resolution and relaunch it?

I swear to god there is something going on there...

As I see it in order to get the best of either 1080p/4k image you have to quit the game, choose the resolution and relaunch it. I know it sounds crazy but what can i say. The whole deal with this game has annoyed me. First the resolution thing, then the performance and now the missing people bug that will probably set me back 10 hours or so... Jeez... I think I am just going to stop going OCD about it.

Nooblet · Nov 1, 2018

BladeX said:
Can Dark1X confirm something to me? When you guys change the PS4 Pro resolution in your metrics/analysis, do you just go into the PS4 menu while the game is running and force 1080p (and vice versa for 4K), or do you quit the game, force the 1080p resolution and relaunch it?

I swear to god there is something going on there...

As I see it in order to get the best of either 1080p/4k image you have to quit the game, choose the resolution and relaunch it. I know it sounds crazy but what can i say. The whole deal with this game has annoyed me. First the resolution thing, then the performance and now the missing people bug that will probably set me back 10 hours or so... Jeez... I think I am just going to stop going OCD about it.

You have to quit the game. If you don't then it won't change the resolution. That's how it's been with every game on pro when you use the system wide downsampling option

BladeX · Nov 1, 2018

Nooblet said:
You have to quit the game. If you don't then it won't change the resolution. That's how it's been with every game on pro when you use the system wide downsampling option

Ok then why does my TV show 1080p output when I change back and forth this setting via the PS4 Pro menu (while the game is running)? Honest question. I say play in 2160, tv says it is 2160p. I go through the ps4 menu (game is still running in the background) and change to 1080p and the TV reflects this setting.

PlayerOne · Nov 1, 2018

Changed to 1080p and it looks better, vegetation especially, only downside is dithering but it isnt so bad. Framerate is also perfect locked 30. Wish they would just use normal res like 1620p or 1440p.

tulpa · Nov 1, 2018

Kinda surprised to see all the complaints about IQ on Pro. People are acting like it ruins the game. It's a bit blurrier than X and other games like Horizon but the game still looks great on a 4K display

Dan. · Nov 1, 2018

tulpa said:
Kinda surprised to see all the complaints about IQ on Pro. People are acting like it ruins the game. It's a bit blurrier than X and other games like Horizon but the game still looks great on a 4K display

I was one of those guys after seeing the DF comparison screenshots, I was quite vocal about how omgwtfawful it was, but an hour into gameplay I had totally forgotten about it, and yes, it looks totally fine on a 4k display.

Dark1x · Nov 1, 2018

BladeX said:
Can Dark1X confirm something to me? When you guys change the PS4 Pro resolution in your metrics/analysis, do you just go into the PS4 menu while the game is running and force 1080p (and vice versa for 4K), or do you quit the game, force the 1080p resolution and relaunch it?

I swear to god there is something going on there...

As I see it in order to get the best of either 1080p/4k image you have to quit the game, choose the resolution and relaunch it. I know it sounds crazy but what can i say. The whole deal with this game has annoyed me. First the resolution thing, then the performance and now the missing people bug that will probably set me back 10 hours or so... Jeez... I think I am just going to stop going OCD about it.

Changing resolution mid-game retains whatever res you were using internally. If you start at 4K then switch to 1080p, it'll downsample regardless of your settings.

BladeX · Nov 1, 2018

Dark1x said:
Changing resolution mid-game retains whatever res you were using internally. If you start at 4K then switch to 1080p, it'll downsample regardless of your settings.

Ok got it. Thanks a lot ;)

somewheretohide · Nov 1, 2018

Damn I'm thick so please forgive asking this again.

Can I, USING A 4K TV ON A PRO, put the Pro into 1080p with SS off to get a locked 30fps OR CAN I ONLY DO THIS ON A 1080P TV?

Seganomics · Nov 1, 2018

Seganomics · Nov 1, 2018

somewheretohide said:
Damn I'm thick so please forgive asking this again.

Can I, USING A 4K TV ON A PRO, put the Pro into 1080p with SS off to get a locked 30fps OR CAN I ONLY DO THIS ON A 1080P TV?

Only on a 1080 set I believe. But with a 4K screen and a Pro why would you want to play in 1080p?

somewheretohide · Nov 1, 2018

Seganomics said:
Only on a 1080 set I believe. But with a 4K screen and a Pro why would you want to play in 1080p?

Thanks.

To get locked frame rate plus isn't the 4K image blurrier than the 1080p one? I'm sure I've read that?

Seganomics · Nov 1, 2018

somewheretohide said:
Thanks.

To get locked frame rate plus isn't the 4K image blurrier than the 1080p one? I'm sure I've read that?

The 4K image is still better than the 1080p one. Also, the framerate boost is small. The Pro version at 4K performs great.

Miggytronz · Nov 1, 2018

So R* has yet to respond about these issues?

novcze · Nov 1, 2018

Diva♥ said:
Posting some daytime PS4 pro 1080tv screenshots

would be better if your shots were in 1080p and not 2160p

AndyB1974 said:
Supersampling off, sharpen 100%
Supersampling off, sharpen 0

sharpen 0 looks quite natural, can you compare 1080p ss on and ss off, sharpen 0

Siever · Nov 1, 2018

Mikasangelos said:
So R* has yet to respond about these issues?

There was no official announcement but their support replies that they are aware of the issue (blurring) and working on a fix.

Dave. · Nov 1, 2018

somewheretohide said:
Damn I'm thick so please forgive asking this again.

Can I, USING A 4K TV ON A PRO, put the Pro into 1080p with SS off to get a locked 30fps OR CAN I ONLY DO THIS ON A 1080P TV?

Yes. Previous reply is wrong.

The thing you need a 1080p TV for is 1080p + SS On. (though, we just learned you can get that temporarily by changing output to 1080p after starting the game in 4K, then not restarting the game)

Blade Wolf · Nov 1, 2018

Piggychan said:

I knew I was right!

PS4 Pro in 1080p looks better than PS4 Pro in 2160p!

S1lentSymph0ny · Nov 1, 2018

Edge said:
Once again, it. Doesn't. Matter.

It always renders the full 4K Performance no matter which resolution you choose. You always have super sampling, the only exceptions are if a game gives you a mode that reduces the resolution, if it doesn't have that, like RDR2, then it always renders in 4K with no differences.

If you watched the videos the output resolution setting has to be making some sort of difference. 1080p was smooth when turning. 1440p wasn't. So something does matter there.

RivalGT · Nov 1, 2018

somewheretohide said:
Damn I'm thick so please forgive asking this again.

Can I, USING A 4K TV ON A PRO, put the Pro into 1080p with SS off to get a locked 30fps OR CAN I ONLY DO THIS ON A 1080P TV?

Change the resolution of the PS4 pro to 1080p. That will give you the 1080p mode on RDR2. Supersampling options dont really apply on a 4K TV since they are greyed out. When you see the charpening filter, you will know your on the 1080p mode.

Greendomo · Nov 1, 2018

So what's the best solution for Xbox one x? Just disabling HDR in system menu?

Deleted member 12833 · Nov 1, 2018

Blade Wolf said:
I knew I was right!

PS4 Pro in 1080p looks better than PS4 Pro in 2160p!

So force my PS4 to output 1080p on my 4k tv? Or do o need a 1080p tv?

GrayFoxBH · Nov 1, 2018

Tofer said:
So force my PS4 to output 1080p on my 4k tv? Or do o need a 1080p tv?

You need a fullhd tv...

chandoog · Nov 1, 2018

Greendomo said:
So what's the best solution for Xbox one x? Just disabling HDR in system menu?

Yes, XBX has no separate profiles for resolution.

Diva♥ said:
Posting some daytime PS4 pro 1080tv screenshots

Supersampling off

Supersamping on

Ok, this again shows SS on is the better way to go. Look at the bark of the tree on Arthur's left. The meshing/texturing of the tree is clearly higher resolution/better looking. Same for how the buildings are resolved, less geometry aliasing and cleaner edges. The foliage is a very tiny smidgen more blurrier on appearance, but again, that's not because of any extra data being added or a better AA solution, it's purely based on the sharpness slider.

These are 1080p screens, but blown up to a larger screen, the differences will become even more enhanced.

To each their own and I can completely understand that even minor frame rate drops can be deal breakers for some people, but to me the SS = on image is easily the better way to go.

RivalGT · Nov 1, 2018

Tofer said:
So force my PS4 to output 1080p on my 4k tv? Or do o need a 1080p tv?

Changing the PS4 to 1080p on a 4K TV will give you the 1080p mode, you will have a sharpening filter in that mode. On a 4K TV I personally wouldn't recommended, but if your after a perfect locked frame rate, then thats the mode for you.

Gestault · Nov 1, 2018

Greendomo said:
So what's the best solution for Xbox one x? Just disabling HDR in system menu?

There's no option for lower resolutions, so it's always playing at 4K or supersampling from it. It didn't have the extra (small) performance snags that the Pro version had in its higher-res mode, so it's already sitting around a solid 30 fps.

Blade Wolf · Nov 1, 2018

tulpa said:
Kinda surprised to see all the complaints about IQ on Pro. People are acting like it ruins the game. It's a bit blurrier than X and other games like Horizon but the game still looks great on a 4K display

lol the game looks ''great'' anyway, even on base machines, the fact that even base PS4 and Pro 1080p looks better than Pro in 2160p shows just how much of a fuck up it is.

Pro version in 2160p is about the second worst looking version of all 4, that's the real issue here, Mr.''Looks fine enough for me''

chandoog · Nov 1, 2018

Blade Wolf said:
lol the game looks great even on base machines, the fact that even base PS4 and Pro 1080p looks better than Pro in 2160p shows just how much of a fuck up it is.

Pro version in 2160p is about the second worst looking version of all 4, seriously switch it to 1080p.

This is not a fact at all, it's subjective and even then there's more things in favor of the 4K image than against it.

Blade Wolf · Nov 1, 2018

chandoog said:
This is not a fact at all, it's subjective and even then there's more things in favor of the 4K image than against it.

When checkerboard ruins the IQ a 4K image is no longer a 4K image imo.

Gestault · Nov 1, 2018

Blade Wolf said:
When checkerboard ruins the IQ a 4K image is no longer a 4K image imo.

I think they're just saying there are definite advantages to the 4K mode (i.e., filtering on the alpha effects).

chandoog · Nov 1, 2018

Blade Wolf said:
When checkerboard ruins the IQ a 4K image is no longer a 4K image imo.

Sure, this game certainly doesn't have the best CB implementation we've seen, not even close .. but that doesn't mean it's worse than a flat 1080 image.

See these:

https://www.resetera.com/threads/re...analysis-read-op.76899/page-100#post-14356396
https://www.resetera.com/threads/re...analysis-read-op.76899/page-105#post-14481192
https://www.resetera.com/threads/re...analysis-read-op.76899/page-100#post-14356679

posts as some examples. The 'sharper' foreground foliage is being taken as a sign of the IQ looking better, when it is in-fact not. The higher resolution mode (whether 4K or SS) is actually resolving more things better. Better geometry, better distant objects, better anti aliasing, completely eliminating the dithering on hair and horses and in some cases even better looking textures up close for solid objects (non-alpha things).

The softness in foreground foliage is the only real drawback. That and the more consistent frame rate in 1080p mode, but that's not a visual deficiency.

Blade Wolf · Nov 1, 2018

Gestault said:
I think they're just saying there are definite advantages to the 4K mode (i.e., filtering on the alpha effects).

Yeah, but with that you get a more blurry image, especially on foliage (again due to the flawed checkerboard), that alone makes it less appealing than 1080p mode.

chandoog said:
Sure, this game certainly doesn't have the best CB implementation we've seen, not even close .. but that doesn't mean it's worse than a flat 1080 image.

See these:

https://www.resetera.com/threads/re...analysis-read-op.76899/page-100#post-14356396
https://www.resetera.com/threads/re...analysis-read-op.76899/page-105#post-14481192
https://www.resetera.com/threads/re...analysis-read-op.76899/page-100#post-14356679

posts as some examples. The 'sharper' foreground foliage is being taken as a sign of the IQ looking better, when it is in-fact not. The higher resolution mode (whether 4K or SS) is actually resolving more things better. Better geometry, better distant objects, better anti aliasing, completely eliminating the dithering on hair and horses and in some cases even better looking textures up close for solid objects (non-alpha things).

The softness in foreground foliage is the only real drawback. That and the more consistent frame rate in 1080p mode, but that's not a visual deficiency.

Wait, I thought I was talking about SS in 1080p vs 4K?

chandoog · Nov 1, 2018

Blade Wolf said:
Yeah, but with that you get a more blurry image, especially on foliage (again due to the flawed checkerboard), that alone makes it less appealing than 1080p mode.

Wait, I thought I was talking about SS in 1080p vs 4K?

Wouldn't SS = on essentially be the same as 4K image on a display ? Unless I misread something, I thought your original post said that base PS4 or setting Pro to forced 1080p looks better than the CB rendered 2160p image. Which is what I disagreed (and still do) with.

Here's a bigger image from the DF article:

The softer foliage is the only real drawback of running the game in it's 4K mode (or SS = on mode FWIW). Everything else, including all geometry, distant objects etc looks better in the 4K (or SS = on) mode.

edit: Giffed to make it easier to see:

- Geometry on tents, edges on tents (better edge resolve), chairs, boxes, tree bark, mountain in the background all looks so much cleaner in the Pro image.

Blade Wolf · Nov 1, 2018

chandoog said:
Wouldn't SS = on essentially be the same as 4K image on a display ? Unless I misread something, I thought your original post said that base PS4 or setting Pro to forced 1080p looks better than the CB rendered 2160p image. Which is what I disagreed (and still do) with.

Here's a bigger image from the DF article:

The softer foliage is the only real drawback of running the game in it's 4K mode (or SS = on mode FWIW). Everything else, including all geometry, distant objects etc looks better in the 4K (or SS = on) mode.

edit: Giffed to make it easier to see:

- Geometry on tents, edges on tents (better edge resolve), chairs, boxes, tree bark, mountain in the background all looks so much cleaner in the Pro image.

Well, I lost track of the subject and honestly I'm tired.

In the end I am just gonna say I like how it looks on my 1080p TV with SS on.

chandoog · Nov 1, 2018

Blade Wolf said:
Well, I lost track of the subject and honestly I'm tired.

In the end I am just gonna say I like how it looks on my 1080p TV with SS on.

In that case we're on the same page :p

But just FYI, SS = on is the same as 2160p w/ checker board rendering. So you're still getting the same image as the 4K mode, just scaled to your 1080p TV.

Blade Wolf · Nov 1, 2018

chandoog said:
In that case we're on the same page :p

But just FYI, SS = on is the same as 2160p w/ checker board rendering. So you're still getting the same image as the 4K mode, just scaled to your 1080p TV.

Oh this is just silly, sorry mister :p

Fastidioso · Nov 1, 2018

Blade Wolf said:
When checkerboard ruins the IQ a 4K image is no longer a 4K image imo.

CBR is fine until works. The problem there, is...it doesn't works most of the time and resolution stays 1920x2160p.

tulpa · Nov 1, 2018

Blade Wolf said:
lol the game looks ''great'' anyway, even on base machines, the fact that even base PS4 and Pro 1080p looks better than Pro in 2160p shows just how much of a fuck up it is.

Pro version in 2160p is about the second worst looking version of all 4, that's the real issue here, Mr.''Looks fine enough for me''

No, it definitely looks much better in the 4K mode than 1080p.

AndyB1974 · Nov 1, 2018

novcze said:
sharpen 0 looks quite natural, can you compare 1080p ss on and ss off, sharpen 0

Supersampling off, sharpen 0

Supersampling on

Supersampling off, sharpen 0

Supersampling on

Fastidioso · Nov 1, 2018

AndyB1974 said:
Supersampling off, sharpen 0

Supersampling on

Supersampling off, sharpen 0

Supersampling on

Uh in the last two shots I noticed more aliasing in the jacket and and in rooftop with SSAA on.the fuck. ..

chaosaeon · Nov 1, 2018

chandoog said:

Looking at this gif you'd think the Pro would be far better than it is. This looks better in some ways, but even then, barely. And one has several times the power of the other and this is the result :/.

chandoog · Nov 1, 2018

chaosaeon said:
Looking at this gif you'd think the Pro would be far better than it is. This looks better in some ways, but even then, barely. And one has several times the power of the other and this is the result :/.

Well .. the core issue is R* didn't do a good enough job with their CB implementation. The Pro is certainly capable of more in terms of reconstruction. The Witcher 3 is an open-world game example where the CB rendering actually ends up looking *more* sharper than XBX's native rendering at times as per DF.

Red Dead Redemption 2 DF Analysis (Read OP)

Double Eleven

Double Eleven

Digital Foundry

User requested account closure