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Tigress

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,155
Washington
I don't think many here really understand the criticism. It goes far, far beyond "not every game can be Deus Ex". Rockstar games in particular tell you exactly where to go and what to do every excruciating step of the way.

Here's a convoy mission in Far Cry 2. "There's this truck. This is where it's going. Stop it how you see fit".
Here's a convoy mission in RDR2. "We have to save a friend from that boat. Go exactly here. Follow this guy. Slowly. Now stop, right there. Take a look with your binoculars. Yes, we know this is the 4th forced binocular tutorial, just do it. Now stab that guy. Okay, kill the rest in that camp."

Attacking a convoy is like the bread and butter of open world missions, but RDR2 takes the control away from you to the extent that it's just like any other shootout in the end, and you have no choice in the matter. Maybe I'm still in the tutorial phase 15 hours in and it gets better, but considering that GTAV was almost exactly the same way, I'm not holding my breath.

Yeah I love this game but this is very true. In some ways though it makes it relaxing, the game will figure out for you how you're going to do it. Since they are going for a very wide audience (they have to with the kind of budget they throw at it) this may be intentional.

Though they did have one mission where you are left to figure it out yourself (stealing the oil wagon). And I suspect optional side stuff (like hints on good houses to rob or even robbing random person) that is open.
 

Deleted member 37739

User requested account closure
Banned
Jan 8, 2018
908
I don't think many here really understand the criticism. It goes far, far beyond "not every game can be Deus Ex". Rockstar games in particular tell you exactly where to go and what to do every excruciating step of the way.

Here's a convoy mission in Far Cry 2. "There's this truck. This is where it's going. Stop it how you see fit".
Here's a convoy mission in RDR2. "We have to save a friend from that boat. Go exactly here. Follow this guy. Slowly. Now stop, right there. Take a look with your binoculars. Yes, we know this is the 4th forced binocular tutorial, just do it. Now stab that guy. Okay, kill the rest in that camp."

Attacking a convoy is like the bread and butter of open world missions, but RDR2 takes the control away from you to the extent that it's just like any other shootout in the end, and you have no choice in the matter. Maybe I'm still in the tutorial phase 15 hours in and it gets better, but considering that GTAV was almost exactly the same way, I'm not holding my breath.

This is what was so nice about MGSV. Though the world was lifeless, you could really tackle missions however you saw fit. I remember one of the early missions, where you have to kill four Russian commanders in a single mission.

I remember crawling along a ditch, finding the room where they were meeting, throwing an empty clip at the door and when the guy opened the door to check I tossed a grenade over his shoulder. Boom - all dead. No one told me to do that - I kind of improvised it on the spot in truth, I don't honestly think I meant to throw the clip, it was probably a mistake - but I crawled away unnoticed and netted an S Class ranking.
 

Kaguya

Member
Jun 19, 2018
6,408
The point of open world is to artificially pad playtime counter, and make people feel like their 100+ hours long game was worth the full price they spent on a single player game. Nothing else.
That would be a stupidly expensive way to just artificially pad content, don't you think? To artificially pad playtime they're realistically skyrocketing actual development time and budget?!
 

Alienhated

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,549
That would be a stupidly expensive way to just artificially pad content, don't you think? To artificially pad playtime they're realistically skyrocketing actual development time and budget?!
Skyrocketing production values has actually been a pretty successful strategy that helped the biggest four-or-so publishers to erase smaller competition.
 

Koz

Member
Sep 5, 2018
255
I don't think many here really understand the criticism. It goes far, far beyond "not every game can be Deus Ex". Rockstar games in particular tell you exactly where to go and what to do every excruciating step of the way.

Here's a convoy mission in Far Cry 2. "There's this truck. This is where it's going. Stop it how you see fit".
Here's a convoy mission in RDR2. "We have to save a friend from that boat. Go exactly here. Follow this guy. Slowly. Now stop, right there. Take a look with your binoculars. Yes, we know this is the 4th forced binocular tutorial, just do it. Now stab that guy. Okay, kill the rest in that camp."

Attacking a convoy is like the bread and butter of open world missions, but RDR2 takes the control away from you to the extent that it's just like any other shootout in the end, and you have no choice in the matter. Maybe I'm still in the tutorial phase 15 hours in and it gets better, but considering that GTAV was almost exactly the same way, I'm not holding my breath.
I agree with your examples but look at them completely differently. To me Far Cry 2 was "here's a convoy, stop it however you wa-- OK I blew it up with a rocket launcher, now what? Uh, that was it." whereas a game like RDR2 gives me a bunch of story and narrative along with the mission to make it interesting, even if it's railroaded a bit.
 

HAdoubleRY

Member
Feb 22, 2018
44
I think it's fine that different games can implement open worlds for different reasons. In RDR2, I feel like it's just one aspect of the game that improves the world building, whereas in BOTW, where the world was the "point" of the game. In RDR2, the point of the game is the story, so every aspect should feed into the narrative and build on it. I feel particularly attached to Arthur because he feels like a real person who exists in a real world. The same is true with all the other little systems the game throws at you. I feel invested in the story because the stakes feel real and the world feels real. But ultimately, R* is still trying to deliver a narrative game, so they have to restrict you in certain ways that fit their vision.
 
Oct 29, 2017
808
Probably the only time I really used an open world properly was on GTA San Andreas.

There was a mission where you had to get to the top of a building or something in the desert but I kept dying.

So I started the mission, drove to the airstrip, and picked up the jetpack which let me fly to the top and skip the enemies.
 

Rendering...

Member
Oct 30, 2017
19,089
Then tell a story without imposing a vast open world I am forced to traverse and a bucketload of systems I have to manage, if that's what your creative vision is.
A vast open world you get to traverse.

If your attitude toward open world games is "ugh, what a chore. I hate all this freedom!" then you don't actually want to play an open world game. Because if you did, you'd embrace all of your options, and you wouldn't let a linear mission structure constrain you. You'd go out exploring and making your own adventures, and return to the main questline when you felt like advancing that particular branch of the game.

What's wrong with linear missions you can dip in and out of? If the devs want to control the way they tell their story, then yeah, the tradeoff is linear and scripted gameplay. That doesn't detract from the other ways you can play the game, outside the narrative track.
 
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Deleted member 4037

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,989
No they aren't. Which is my point. To say they are that and only that puts limits on what open world games are capable of. As has been mentioned several times before, they can be used to foster story elements (atmosphere, world building). There are open world games across the entire spectrum of how much you want the world itself to be apart of the narrative.

And players choosing to build there own narratives for an hour then enjoying the developer's narrative right after that is not taking player agency away. Whatever that balance ends up being is a choice the player makes.

In reference to the spectrum I mentioned, those two games would probably be at the opposite end of games like RDR where the world itself is much more important to the narrative. Holding those games as the standard of open world is exactly what I'm talking about as far as limiting the genre. As far as supporting the core narrative they felt more like sandboxes compared to other games. MGS V was especially lifeless and felt like interconnected playgrounds.
Yes they are, even red dead is like this. Player agency on what to do, when to do it, creating your own stories, that is all player agency. Its not a limiting definition, it is *the* definition of a open world that has a point to it. "Enjoying the story" doesnt have to mean limiting mission design, rdr2 actually has fantastic missions outside of the story that feels organic and lets you use the systems how you want, a lot of the story missions are pointlessly scripted though, not serving any purpose to enhancing the story.

I am holding up nothing to any "standard", I hate botw with every fiber of my being, but it does a way more competent job mission wise than rdr2 does in its main structure, nor do I have an immense fondness for MGSV's open world outside of the missions. There is no "spectrum", this isnt a debate about linearity vs openness, its about consistency.
 
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Tigress

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,155
Washington
A vast open world you get to traverse.

If your attitude toward open world games is "ugh, what a chore. I hate all this freedom!" then you don't actually want to play an open world game. Because if you did, you'd embrace all of your options, and you wouldn't let a linear mission structure constrain you. You'd go out exploring and making your own adventures, and return to the main questline when you felt like advancing that particular branch of the game.

What's wrong with linear missions you can dip in and out of? If the devs want to control the way they tell their story, then yeah, the tradeoff is linear and scripted gameplay. That doesn't detract from the other ways you can play the game, outside the narrative track.

While I agree with OP I also agree with this. I never find the open world a chore honestly, that's the main appeal to open world games to me. The missions are more just excuses to keep playing the game and give me some variety.

That being said I prefer Bethesda's approach which is why despite all their flaws (and I can agree they are definitely flawed) they make my favorite games. But Red Dead has a lot of stuff you can do in the open world and even stuff you can do that it doesn't script you for. In a way it offers variety which is what I want in an open world game. Do some open world thing and then when I'm in the mood to do some story stuff and be scripted along do a mission. Even still there is some open ness in the missions. LIke I ended up with a 300 dollar bounty doing Micah's mission. I could have done it slightly different so I at least wouldn't have the bounty. And they do offer some missions where you can take the lead or let the gang lead you.

In the end I find both approaches enjoyable but I just wish more companies would compete wtih Bethesda for doing true sandbox games (cause while I love their games I do think they could definitely do better and they're moving in the opposite direction of what they need to improve on :( ). But I will say imho Bethesda and Rockstar are king of open world games (as in no one else competes with how well they do the open world and how immersive it feels). I will say Nintendo might get up there if they keep it up with Zelda BoTW's design approach (they did stuff I think Bethesda could learn from).

(and yes, I did choose my terms when I said sandbox vs when I said open world. Rockstar makes open world games but not sandbox, at least not for the main missions. Bethesda makes sandbox games and Zelda BoTW was a sandbox game. In fact I think OP could rephrase his question to, "Why do so few companies make true sandbox games?" and say the same thing).
 

joe_zazen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,490
copying two posts i made in an earlier thread:

"in so many open world games, you're just basically playing a normal linear game in a huge map. there's rarely any reason to go out of your way and do your own thing. you get quest after quest after quest pointing you to exactly where you are supposed to be going, and how far away that is, what to do when you get there, and then onto the next quest. side quests feel the same too. plus there's always so much information that's given to you on the map that nothing is left upto you to find and figure out.
what i liked in botw is that it made sense to be open-world, it actually used the huge map to give you the sense that you're having your own unique adventure, it encouraged you to go out of your way and ignore the main quest line and explore the things the world has to offer. it was somehow just fun to traverse the world. climbing definitely helped too, everything you saw seemed accessible and not like a vide game world where you're only supposed to be in places the dev intended you to be."

"this is something that very few games are able to achieve because it's probably extremely hard to do. these huge worlds exist to impress people will their scale, but it's not easy to give the player a lot of freedom and just expect them to have fun in it.
gamers are used to very linear, pre-planned experiences. while they may go "whoa" at the scale of these new huge open-world games, without guidance they'll think "now what?" after fucking around in the world for an hour or two. the reason all these mini-maps and icons and busy-work and points of interest every ten meter exist is simple, they want to emulate what they did in those smaller, linear games in these big, open-world games. they simply don't believe the worlds they've created are interesting/fun enough to be THE ACTUAL POINT of the games. that's where botw excels. the world is just that well designed that they feel easy in letting the player have fun with it, and they feel easy to respect the player and give him/her the freedom to have their own adventure in it. it's obviously very hard, and required a meticulously designed world where everything makes sense and has a purpose. to guide the player through their huge world without obvious markers and objectives and stuff like that, and instead rely on visual cues and the player's own decisions, that's where botw comes on top and passes most other open world games."

Great posts.
 

SlimeKnight

Member
Jan 2, 2018
250
I agree. I'm liking RDR2 so far, but I do not think the linear narrative and forced way to play missions really suits the "go anywhere, do anything!" style of open world games. The story and exploration/moments of emergent gameplay feel like completely separate experiences and don't blend together as they should.

I was doing one mission last night where we had a shootout at a cabin and I was told to investigate an area marked by a yellow circle on the map. I walked only like five feet outside of the circle to loot a couple of the corpses I had shot down in the fight before I forgot and immediately got the "MISSION FAILED" screen and had to reload the last checkpoint, forcing me to redo the previous shootout all over again. Shit like that is annoying and makes you feel like you don't have any true player agency or freedom while doing a mission.
 

Pariah

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,945
In all fairness (I haven't read every comment so perhaps that was said earlier), the quoted mission acts as a tutorial for that whole category of event. It would only be natural to see next ones, as in the original RDR, giving you more and more freedom.

Approaching what the game does for level and world design, I think there are two separate levels, both of them remarkable: the missions themselves, close enough in presentation and execution to what could be expected from the best linear games; and the events while exploring the world, where a "Westworld effect" comes into play and you can assume any given role, within the binary choices offered to you by the game: do you want to be bandit or savior? That woman who's just been kidnapped, are you going to help her, or forget her? By itself it might not be anything revolutionary (it's not), the original RDR did many of these things too, but the level of detail, obsessive detail some might say, creates an unparalleled illusion of becoming Arthur Morgan, at the end of the century, in America.
 

zenspider

Banned
Nov 7, 2017
1,583
The baby in this metaphor is the open world itself, which is a school of game design with a vast appeal that shouldn't require explanation on a forum for gaming enthusiasts. The question comes across as disingenuous even if that wasn't the OP's intent.

That said, I agree with you that a tension can sometimes exist between the critical path and optional content, particularly during urgent story beats. This is a compromise that can be addressed with better writing and game direction. RDR2, for instance, seems to push the player along during these urgent story moments and, as it opens up later, gives the side content and main story missions equal urgency as both relate to supporting the camp. This is certainly a much more elegant and desirable solution than just dropping the open world altogether.


MGSV is one of my favorite games of all time. Clearly I should've put "best of both worlds" in quotes because I was trying to describe the spirit of Rockstar's design philosophy rather than make a value statement. Obviously, I like Rockstar's games very much, but I think their approach to game design has its pros and cons just like any other. That said, I was trying to emphasize the pros and explain why I think the suggestion that their games might as well be linear because the missions are scripted is ridiculous and ignores a huge part of their appeal.

No need to be patronizing - i know what an open world is. I also think it needs to be distinguished from "sandbox" game play - there are many open worlds that do not feature it, for example Nier: Automata and Final Fantasy XV, where the open world design fails to show the intrinsic appeal you're attributing to it. It's not always the 'baby'.

I haven't played RDR2 so I'm glad to hear it handles the tension of false urgency well.
 
Nov 18, 2017
1,273
Then tell a story without imposing a vast open world I am forced to traverse and a bucketload of systems I have to manage, if that's what your creative vision is.
Your not wrong Phantom Thief but people are gonna defend this rubbish forever.

If you want to tell a story, write a book or make a film, most games I see that are lauded for their stories make no use of the mechanics of being an actual game to make any of their points.

Either make a story that could only work as a video game or go make a movie.
 

aiswyda

Member
Aug 11, 2018
3,093
But you still have to do those initial missions, the only difference with other games is that in those you are given the basic habilities to reach the final boss and tells you who is the bad guy you must defeat, instead of adquiring them progressively like in most games. It helps that the plot/story in Zelda is really basic. And then you choose... to do things or go after Ganon with 3 heart containers... but i guess the point of such a big world is to explore it, so I'm the end you still do missions/shrined/whatever you would do like in any other games. Sure many of them have different ways to be resolved, which is good, but again, the game is not very 'grounded' so tools at your disposal are wild and weird and that obviously affects design :in games with more real/grounded world, like RDR2, magical elements wouldn't fit.
In HZD you also are free to roam and do missions once you leave the initial area, minus main plot, so i don't see how BoTW is that different really, it has more freedom, yes, at a cost, mainly limited narrative.

I'm not claiming that Zelda has the best story ever but that also has nothing to do with my point. My point was that Zelda doesn't railroad you like the person I was replying to implied both in story content or in how you tackle issues.

The method of tackling issues is the main point of this thread so I'm just gonna address that here.

You don't have to have magic or BOTW systems to offer multiple options. I haven't played RDR2 but from what I've read on this forum it seems like there are a lot of times where you're railroaded into certain ways to tackle issues for the sake of narrative integrity. I've also heard that unless you do very specific things to get around the bounty system that your bounty goes up even though logically there should be other ways to get around it. RDR2, from the sound of it, has somewhat failed to reward people for doing things a different way than the way R* intended, even when they are attempting to use the tools that R* gave them. I could be wrong as I haven't played but that seems to encapsulate a lot of complaints I've read.

BOTW in contrast never punished me for solving a problem my way—if it fit within the mechanics of the game which outside of maybe a shrine or two were always available IIRC, I was allowed to do it.

I didn't play HZD but based on watching my housemate play about 10 hours over the course of the story nothing stuck out to me as offering multiple options to solve the problem. You choose your arrow and then you hunt whatever you have to hunt or you do a fetch quest. Maybe he played in a really boring manner, but I don't recall seeing or hearing anything about that from him or online.
 

aiswyda

Member
Aug 11, 2018
3,093
A vast open world you get to traverse.

If your attitude toward open world games is "ugh, what a chore. I hate all this freedom!" then you don't actually want to play an open world game. Because if you did, you'd embrace all of your options, and you wouldn't let a linear mission structure constrain you. You'd go out exploring and making your own adventures, and return to the main questline when you felt like advancing that particular branch of the game.

What's wrong with linear missions you can dip in and out of? If the devs want to control the way they tell their story, then yeah, the tradeoff is linear and scripted gameplay. That doesn't detract from the other ways you can play the game, outside the narrative track.

Out of curiosity (I haven't played yet and have just skimmed threads for opinions), are there adventures to be had that you can make your own? Outside of just i lasso this bad guy instead of shooting him—can you peacefully resolve disputes when R* wants you to use violence, for example?

I guess my question is, is the open world worth exploring beyond just world building and additional narrative? Does it offer mechanically interesting gameplay or is it more quests that ask you to either kil someone or deliver something without giving you any other options to interact with the quest?
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,535
I agree. I'm liking RDR2 so far, but I do not think the linear narrative and forced way to play missions really suits the "go anywhere, do anything!" style of open world games. The story and exploration/moments of emergent gameplay feel like completely separate experiences and don't blend together as they should.

I was doing one mission last night where we had a shootout at a cabin and I was told to investigate an area marked by a yellow circle on the map. I walked only like five feet outside of the circle to loot a couple of the corpses I had shot down in the fight before I forgot and immediately got the "MISSION FAILED" screen and had to reload the last checkpoint, forcing me to redo the previous shootout all over again. Shit like that is annoying and makes you feel like you don't have any true player agency or freedom while doing a mission.

Yeah, this is the real problem. It's not a big deal that story missions are "linear". It's that they're straight up railroaded to a ridiculous degree with characters constantly telling you every single little thing to do (down to even forcing you to lead your horse to a hitching post for no reason) and yelling at you if you accidentally walk the wrong direction for even a second. And failing missions just by stepping a few feet away to do something you feel might be important for that mission like getting another weapon from your horse. The game is inconsistent and contradictory. To the point that I'm incredibly surprised that the crowd this game is trying hardest to please (people who love "immersion") seem to love it and don't care that the game crushes itself under its own weight constantly, breaking immersion left and right. I mean, this is the first game in a long time that hit me with a deliberate and obvious invisible wall and didn't give a fuck about trying to hide it.

So yeah, personally I would love it if the game offered BotW or MGSV levels of approach to its story missions. That's my preference and I enjoy it more. But I don't need that. I can be perfectly happy without that. At this point all I want is to not get game over screens all the time because I dared to not do every single little thing exactly as the developers set it up. Especially since half the time you may not have all the information you need or things might happen so quickly that you don't have time to react properly. Or a character will say "Go hide behind that rock!" and then you won't know which rock because the world is so natural that there's plenty of rocks so you have to check the map and you see the yellow dot showing exactly where you have to go, so then you go there and hide behind the rock, but there's two rocks right next to each other, so you figure it doesn't matter which since they're about the same size, but apparently if you hide behind one and not the other despite them being literally right next to each other then the guy that comes out of the house will see you, whereas of you had just gone behind the right rock instead of the left rock then everything would have been fine! So it's still easy to fuck things up even when the game explicitly tells you what to do. Ugh. A little bit more wiggle room would go a long way for a game like this.
 
Oct 26, 2017
1,910
Yeah, this is the real problem. It's not a big deal that story missions are "linear". It's that they're straight up railroaded to a ridiculous degree with characters constantly telling you every single little thing to do (down to even forcing you to lead your horse to a hitching post for no reason) and yelling at you if you accidentally walk the wrong direction for even a second. And failing missions just by stepping a few feet away to do something you feel might be important for that mission like getting another weapon from your horse. The game is inconsistent and contradictory. To the point that I'm incredibly surprised that the crowd this game is trying hardest to please (people who love "immersion") seem to love it and don't care that the game crushes itself under its own weight constantly, breaking immersion left and right. I mean, this is the first game in a long time that hit me with a deliberate and obvious invisible wall and didn't give a fuck about trying to hide it.

So yeah, personally I would love it if the game offered BotW or MGSV levels of approach to its story missions. That's my preference and I enjoy it more. But I don't need that. I can be perfectly happy without that. At this point all I want is to not get game over screens all the time because I dared to not do every single little thing exactly as the developers set it up. Especially since half the time you may not have all the information you need or things might happen so quickly that you don't have time to react properly. Or a character will say "Go hide behind that rock!" and then you won't know which rock because the world is so natural that there's plenty of rocks so you have to check the map and you see the yellow dot showing exactly where you have to go, so then you go there and hide behind the rock, but there's two rocks right next to each other, so you figure it doesn't matter which since they're about the same size, but apparently if you hide behind one and not the other despite them being literally right next to each other then the guy that comes out of the house will see you, whereas of you had just gone behind the right rock instead of the left rock then everything would have been fine! So it's still easy to fuck things up even when the game explicitly tells you what to do. Ugh. A little bit more wiggle room would go a long way for a game like this.
Neither BOTW nor MGSV has a real continuous story though.
 

tiebreaker

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,153
The mission design is really restrictive.

I went to the camp and started a mission, and because I'm already at the camp and have some pelts to donate, so might as well go to Pearson first.

Nope, can't do that.
 

Deleted member 48897

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 22, 2018
13,623
It's difficult to have a story driven game with the game play styling of those games. There has to be a sacrifice somewhere

Sure, but that's the point of the thread, isn't it? I certainly agree with it -- one of the things that made BotW more tolerable to me over a lot of these open world games was that it wasn't trying to force a play style in order to inflict a narrative on me. Reading what people are saying in here about how missions work in RDR2 makes it sound like the exact opposite of what I want out of a game.

Even my previous favorites of Just Cause 2 and Saints Row 4 weren't immune to this, especially near the start of each game. Indeed, SR4's story missions tended to be egregious due to the way some were completely different to the main open-world mode.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,535
It's difficult to have a story driven game with the game play styling of those games. There has to be a sacrifice somewhere

Again, what does that have to do with what I said? When did I say it should be exactly like those games? When did I say they could easily have a story driven game while also having the structure of BotW of MGSV? You might want to read my post again.
 

Take5GiantSteps

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,291
Ohio
Horizon is one of the worst offenders with this. The open-world did nothing to add to the narrative.
 

K Samedi

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,990
This one is a nice case study for a youtube channel like Boss keys.

A true open world game where you can go to the last boss from the get go naturally has to make sacrifices to the way the story is told. There's also games in between that like to tell a linear story but also give you freedom in how you complete quests. Then you have games that want to immerse you in their world but also want to tell a more linear story with scripted set peaces.

MGSV, Breath of the Wild. Skyrim, the Witcher all go at it differently and it really depends on what the developer wants to achieve with the game.

My favorite type of game is more in the vein of Metal Gear and Zelda where you have complete freedom in how you complete missions or quests. I think Skyrim lacks the kind of freedom these game give you because you are just pointed in the right direction (there's even a spell for that lol). The open world setting is kind of pointless. It would be a better game if the game was more hand crafted. Same goes for the Witcher 3. I feel these games dont need to be open word but just are to give the player the illusion they are going on a big advanture.
 

SlimeKnight

Member
Jan 2, 2018
250
Yeah, this is the real problem. It's not a big deal that story missions are "linear". It's that they're straight up railroaded to a ridiculous degree with characters constantly telling you every single little thing to do (down to even forcing you to lead your horse to a hitching post for no reason) and yelling at you if you accidentally walk the wrong direction for even a second. And failing missions just by stepping a few feet away to do something you feel might be important for that mission like getting another weapon from your horse. The game is inconsistent and contradictory. To the point that I'm incredibly surprised that the crowd this game is trying hardest to please (people who love "immersion") seem to love it and don't care that the game crushes itself under its own weight constantly, breaking immersion left and right. I mean, this is the first game in a long time that hit me with a deliberate and obvious invisible wall and didn't give a fuck about trying to hide it.

So yeah, personally I would love it if the game offered BotW or MGSV levels of approach to its story missions. That's my preference and I enjoy it more. But I don't need that. I can be perfectly happy without that. At this point all I want is to not get game over screens all the time because I dared to not do every single little thing exactly as the developers set it up. Especially since half the time you may not have all the information you need or things might happen so quickly that you don't have time to react properly. Or a character will say "Go hide behind that rock!" and then you won't know which rock because the world is so natural that there's plenty of rocks so you have to check the map and you see the yellow dot showing exactly where you have to go, so then you go there and hide behind the rock, but there's two rocks right next to each other, so you figure it doesn't matter which since they're about the same size, but apparently if you hide behind one and not the other despite them being literally right next to each other then the guy that comes out of the house will see you, whereas of you had just gone behind the right rock instead of the left rock then everything would have been fine! So it's still easy to fuck things up even when the game explicitly tells you what to do. Ugh. A little bit more wiggle room would go a long way for a game like this.

That's exactly what I mean when I say RDR2 feels like two separate games forcibly smashed together into one package. It's often very "contradictory" as you put it. Every time I boot up my PS4 for a RDR2 play session, I literally think to myself, "Okay, I can either do some missions OR explore and meet some NPCs or mess around with the mechanics and systems." The game doesn't allow me to focus on it all and just let things progress in a seamless and organic way like how, say, Breath of the Wild lets you. And yes, I get that it's difficult to do when you have a more involved narrative like RDR2, but I'm saying that the game (for me) would have benefitted much more from cutting back on the open world aspects.

I still enjoy this game very much, but these issues (combined with the sometimes clunky and overly weighty controls) make this more of a solid 8/10 game for me and not the generation-defining 10/10 everyone else thinks it is.
 

Koz

Member
Sep 5, 2018
255
That's exactly what I mean when I say RDR2 feels like two separate games forcibly smashed together into one package. It's often very "contradictory" as you put it. Every time I boot up my PS4 for a RDR2 play session, I literally think to myself, "Okay, I can either do some missions OR explore and meet some NPCs or mess around with the mechanics and systems." The game doesn't allow me to focus on it all and just let things progress in a seamless and organic way like how, say, Breath of the Wild lets you. And yes, I get that it's difficult to do when you have a more involved narrative like RDR2, but I'm saying that the game (for me) would have benefitted much more from cutting back on the open world aspects.
Yes! And I personally prefer it that way. I would rather have tight scripted story missions than some open-ended mission with 20 different ways to do something that are all equally as bland (to me). That's why I think the way RDR2 does it is fine and I don't like games like BotW.
 

fourfourfun

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,683
England
This is the thing that got me about LA Noire. Open world and pointless. If the only thing the open world offers you is a situation where you can go any route to a place where you have a managed A to B experience, then you've got to wonder if that is resources well spent.
 

Tigress

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,155
Washington
Yeah, this is the real problem. It's not a big deal that story missions are "linear". It's that they're straight up railroaded to a ridiculous degree with characters constantly telling you every single little thing to do (down to even forcing you to lead your horse to a hitching post for no reason) and yelling at you if you accidentally walk the wrong direction for even a second. And failing missions just by stepping a few feet away to do something you feel might be important for that mission like getting another weapon from your horse. The game is inconsistent and contradictory. To the point that I'm incredibly surprised that the crowd this game is trying hardest to please (people who love "immersion") seem to love it and don't care that the game crushes itself under its own weight constantly, breaking immersion left and right. I mean, this is the first game in a long time that hit me with a deliberate and obvious invisible wall and didn't give a fuck about trying to hide it.

So yeah, personally I would love it if the game offered BotW or MGSV levels of approach to its story missions. That's my preference and I enjoy it more. But I don't need that. I can be perfectly happy without that. At this point all I want is to not get game over screens all the time because I dared to not do every single little thing exactly as the developers set it up. Especially since half the time you may not have all the information you need or things might happen so quickly that you don't have time to react properly. Or a character will say "Go hide behind that rock!" and then you won't know which rock because the world is so natural that there's plenty of rocks so you have to check the map and you see the yellow dot showing exactly where you have to go, so then you go there and hide behind the rock, but there's two rocks right next to each other, so you figure it doesn't matter which since they're about the same size, but apparently if you hide behind one and not the other despite them being literally right next to each other then the guy that comes out of the house will see you, whereas of you had just gone behind the right rock instead of the left rock then everything would have been fine! So it's still easy to fuck things up even when the game explicitly tells you what to do. Ugh. A little bit more wiggle room would go a long way for a game like this.

I think I'm thinking of the same mission with your last example but another example (and it didn't fail me but didn't even let me do the first step) is I get off the horse, realize I have no weapons, have to go back. At that point guy is telling me to use my binoculars and gets pissed cause I walked back to my horse and goes, "I guess we'll just go in".

if they are going to be that scripted that I can't go back to my horse, could it at least have him say, "Get your weapons?"
 

akuarius87

Member
Oct 30, 2017
26
Mexicali
Every game is linear, no matter what you do, at at some points of the game you experiment little varitions of the story.

Well, talking about open world games, you are not supposed to go directly to the story, you are the one make in it lineal, you need to experience the side quests and what the world has to offer
 

Tigress

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,155
Washington
That's exactly what I mean when I say RDR2 feels like two separate games forcibly smashed together into one package. It's often very "contradictory" as you put it. Every time I boot up my PS4 for a RDR2 play session, I literally think to myself, "Okay, I can either do some missions OR explore and meet some NPCs or mess around with the mechanics and systems." The game doesn't allow me to focus on it all and just let things progress in a seamless and organic way like how, say, Breath of the Wild lets you. And yes, I get that it's difficult to do when you have a more involved narrative like RDR2, but I'm saying that the game (for me) would have benefitted much more from cutting back on the open world aspects.

I still enjoy this game very much, but these issues (combined with the sometimes clunky and overly weighty controls) make this more of a solid 8/10 game for me and not the generation-defining 10/10 everyone else thinks it is.

See, I'd rather them not sacrifice the open world aspect. I'd rather them do it like they do now than sacrifice the open world concept. I'd prefer if they changed they change it to be better suited for open world, not for linear games. Especially as this is Rockstar we are talking about who imho as well as Bethesda makes the best open world games. It would be a shame to see them go more linear imho. The linear missions are not what makes me excited to play their games (they're fun but I wouldn't buy their games if that was the only gameplay. Especially as that is not at all what makes Rockstar games special). It's the open world and how immersive it is and how it reacts to you and how small details matter in it.

Yes! And I personally prefer it that way. I would rather have tight scripted story missions than some open-ended mission with 20 different ways to do something that are all equally as bland (to me). That's why I think the way RDR2 does it is fine and I don't like games like BotW.

SEe, I think the fun of an open world game like BoTW or Bethesda games is the creativity you come up with on how to solve it. The fun part is figuring it out for yourself. And also seeing how other people figured it out and what the game actually let them get away with.
 

fourfourfun

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,683
England
Every game is linear, no matter what you do, at at some points of the game you experiment little varitions of the story.

Well, talking about open world games, you are not supposed to go directly to the story, you are the one make in it lineal, you need to experience the side quests and what the world has to offer

I don't think this is true. In BOTW, the pre-requiste is that you complete the plateau. That's it. Everything else is driven by your motivation.

Thinking back, Morriwind allows you to pretty much take on the end game from the start of you know what you are doing.
 

Auctopus

Self-requested Ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,073
Ok, there's a lot to unpack here and with all due respect, it's difficult to not assume you made this thread either for attention or to just talk out your ass.

Firstly, RDR2 is clearly a game that has been built ground-up with its systems. One of the key themes of this game is 'Survival' - The survival of the player in moment-to-moment game-play via its mechanics, the survival of Dutch's Gang and the survival of the Wild West as an ideology/way of life. To its core, this is a game that is one with its narrative. So, I'm not sure how else you'd like it to be told? It's a Western. It needs wide open spaces and it needs to be unforgiving. It needs to have the slow, plodding pacing that gives the player the sense that their 'journey' is one that is long and arduous. This is constantly reminded to the player through the scope of the world, the stamina, health and camp mechanics and in at large, the dialogue, narrative and characters! Why do you think the game opens with a 2 hours prologue where the gang is on the precipice of defeat? If there's one thing this game has, it's a "compelling vision with a sense of place".

Far Cry 3 and Horizon allow for far more experimentation than RDR2, to be fair.

Horizon: Zero Dawn and Far Cry 3, despite being years apart are both games that heavily rely on the open-world tropes of the late 2000s. It's just the former looks the dog's bollocks. Horizon's main story constantly takes place outside of the open-world in Destiny-esque limbs that remove the player from the main map and place them in isolated dungeon where the story can be told like a linear action game. Something Guerilla even struggle with as the player is constantly bombarded with lore notes, audio logs and internal monologues. Guerilla seemed terrified to actually tell the story in the open-world they created unless it was following a detective-vision trail to another fight. Despite the game having enjoyable and aesthetically pleasing combat, I am really unclear on how its mechanics and narrative are any more experimental than Red Dead. One relies on genre tropes of Westerns and the other Sci-Fi. However, where Red Dead succeeds in having the player naturally explore their world through story and player will, Horizon removes the responsibility of the player and instead forces them in to corridors. The less said about its actual quest design, the better. But the fact that RDR2 has some quests that don't involve go to this location and kill a mob/have a story revelation already puts it above Horizon.

Why do you need to create a world with an expanse that a player must traverse and systems they must manage rather than creating a compelling vision for it with a sense of place in a linear game? I mean, God of War does that just fine.

Which brings me to God of War with its semi-open world. I'll be the first to admit that this game wasn't my bag and whilst I concede it triumphs in many areas - storytelling, I believe, is somewhere it falters. Storytelling in a modern open-world game is difficult for a couple of reasons. You can't control player will for the most part which means you can't control pacing as well or what the player will see before you want them to see it. God of War solves this in some ways by blocking off certain areas until certain story beats have played out. Some people felt this meant God of War was a metroidvania in that regard but really it's just a linear action game playing out in a pseudo-open-world. I think it's slightly disingenuous to say that God of War is successful in open-world storytelling as it never really gives the player complete freedom, eliminating the chance of the player seeing or doing something that interferes with the narrative.

The thing is, open worlds like Bethesda, BotW, and Ubisoft and Horizon to a degree, do this. I'm just curious why so many games like TW3 and RDR2 falter on this front.

How can you say open-worlds like Skyrim (a breakable, open-world, choose your own adventure), BoTW (an emergent, physics-based world relying purely on player agency) , Assassin's Creed (a check-list simulator) and Horizon (A theme-park) and then suggest RDR2 (a completely grounded, mechanic/system reliant open-world) and TW3 (highly scripted/character driven open-world setting) are similar?

Essentially, you keep talking but are you actually saying anything?
 

Edgar

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
7,180
Your not wrong Phantom Thief but people are gonna defend this rubbish forever.

If you want to tell a story, write a book or make a film, most games I see that are lauded for their stories make no use of the mechanics of being an actual game to make any of their points.

Either make a story that could only work as a video game or go make a movie.
I would rather read a book or watch a movie then play RDR 2, amirite
 

Katarn343

Member
Jan 22, 2018
1,678
México - United States
This is what I appreciate the most out of Bethesda's titles. Whilst they lack (a ton) on cinematography and compelling storylines, they allow the feeling (or at least the illusion) of dynamic and emergent scenarios that you feel are unique to you. This is why I can replay Skyrim or Oblivion over and over, they always feel different because nothing is structured or grounded to accommodate logical storytelling. This isn't true with Fallout 4 which was severely disappointing, but I hope for the best in Starfield and TES VI. Fallout 76 already seems to be in the right track for this department; somewhat more than Fallout 4, at least
 
Nov 18, 2017
1,273
I would rather read a book or watch a movie then play RDR 2, amirite
I like red dead but I'd rather do either of those things than loot bodies in red dead, or skin an animal, or just walk anywhere in red dead or even just travelling between missions.

I like red dead, but damn is there a lot of down time. Too much down time.
 

Edgar

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
7,180
I like red dead but I'd rather do either of those things than loot bodies in red dead, or skin an animal, or just walk anywhere in red dead or even just travelling between missions.

I like red dead, but damn is there a lot of down time. Too much down time.
The down time is why I like RDR 2 and witcher 3 and especially when something more set piece and actiony happens it's far more effective
 

CrayToes

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,971
Ok, there's a lot to unpack here and with all due respect, it's difficult to not assume you made this thread either for attention or to just talk out your ass.

Firstly, RDR2 is clearly a game that has been built ground-up with its systems. One of the key themes of this game is 'Survival' - The survival of the player in moment-to-moment game-play via its mechanics, the survival of Dutch's Gang and the survival of the Wild West as an ideology/way of life. To its core, this is a game that is one with its narrative. So, I'm not sure how else you'd like it to be told? It's a Western. It needs wide open spaces and it needs to be unforgiving. It needs to have the slow, plodding pacing that gives the player the sense that their 'journey' is one that is long and arduous. This is constantly reminded to the player through the scope of the world, the stamina, health and camp mechanics and in at large, the dialogue, narrative and characters! Why do you think the game opens with a 2 hours prologue where the gang is on the precipice of defeat? If there's one thing this game has, it's a "compelling vision with a sense of place".



Horizon: Zero Dawn and Far Cry 3, despite being years apart are both games that heavily rely on the open-world tropes of the late 2000s. It's just the former looks the dog's bollocks. Horizon's main story constantly takes place outside of the open-world in Destiny-esque limbs that remove the player from the main map and place them in isolated dungeon where the story can be told like a linear action game. Something Guerilla even struggle with as the player is constantly bombarded with lore notes, audio logs and internal monologues. Guerilla seemed terrified to actually tell the story in the open-world they created unless it was following a detective-vision trail to another fight. Despite the game having enjoyable and aesthetically pleasing combat, I am really unclear on how its mechanics and narrative are any more experimental than Red Dead. One relies on genre tropes of Westerns and the other Sci-Fi. However, where Red Dead succeeds in having the player naturally explore their world through story and player will, Horizon removes the responsibility of the player and instead forces them in to corridors. The less said about its actual quest design, the better. But the fact that RDR2 has some quests that don't involve go to this location and kill a mob/have a story revelation already puts it above Horizon.



Which brings me to God of War with its semi-open world. I'll be the first to admit that this game wasn't my bag and whilst I concede it triumphs in many areas - storytelling, I believe, is somewhere it falters. Storytelling in a modern open-world game is difficult for a couple of reasons. You can't control player will for the most part which means you can't control pacing as well or what the player will see before you want them to see it. God of War solves this in some ways by blocking off certain areas until certain story beats have played out. Some people felt this meant God of War was a metroidvania in that regard but really it's just a linear action game playing out in a pseudo-open-world. I think it's slightly disingenuous to say that God of War is successful in open-world storytelling as it never really gives the player complete freedom, eliminating the chance of the player seeing or doing something that interferes with the narrative.



How can you say open-worlds like Skyrim (a breakable, open-world, choose your own adventure), BoTW (an emergent, physics-based world relying purely on player agency) , Assassin's Creed (a check-list simulator) and Horizon (A theme-park) and then suggest RDR2 (a completely grounded, mechanic/system reliant open-world) and TW3 (highly scripted/character driven open-world setting) are similar?

Essentially, you keep talking but are you actually saying anything?
RIP Phantom Thief.