Doctor Who Series 11 |OT|- She’s Here, and It’s About Time

M.Bluth · Oct 29, 2018

Xaszatm said:
I wonder if one of the big issues people seem to be having is the sheer...unimportance of the doctor. Ever since the revival series, the show has made the Doctor incredibly special. While this was incredibly obvious to the point where it got annoying in Moffat's era, even RTD had this with The Doctor being the last survivor of the Time War. This doctor in comparison is just a normal adventurer. Sure, she has a box that can travel through time and space and is a genius but she isn't the center of the universe or such a god to be worship that children are named after him/her. And this disconnect, this pullback is disconcerting. People here are constantly trying to see who is the villain that will come back or trying to tie every plotline in a neat little bow (and yeah, there are too many plotlines that aren't resolved nicely which is a problem) but the show itself isn't that concerned with that. It's far more concerned about character interaction and the journey itself.

No. That's gone by the point 12 pops in, unless the story involves UNIT, which is fair enough considering he worked with them for what, 40, 50 years?
The problem isn't whether the Doctor is recognized or deified, to be honest, the Doctor as myth wasn't played up much outside of s6 to be such a vital issue now.
Quite honestly I'm not seeing how The Doctor is any different now from the "idiot with a box and screwdriver, just passing through, helping out" ethos. And just as name-droppy as ever!

Problem is, Chibnall doesn't write fun dialog. He can't pull off those lovely sharp lines full of heart and oh so full of history like RTD, or Moffat's incredible speeches and masterful jokes. So the dialog really ends up being bland.
It's no wonder he has only really nailed the characters with recent trauma so far, while 13 ends up with "Stock Doctor" speak, and Yaz gets shafted.

Spectone · Oct 29, 2018

The Doctor doesn't who recognise Jack Robertson is and therefore he is probably historically insignificant and unlikely to end up President.

CD_93 · Oct 29, 2018

6.43m. Rosa has hit 8m.

The show is really healthy again so far this series.

Cosmonaut X · Oct 29, 2018

TBH, I grew to loathe RTD and Moffat's approach to the Doctor during their tenures. New Who has a lot to recommend it, with great episodes in every series since the relaunch (some all-time classics too) and fantastic performances from every Doctor, but both Davies and Moffat seemed so in love with the idea of the Doctor as a tortured saviour figure and/or action hero/smartest guy in the room (in ANY room) that it kept on bubbling back through in many of their episodes and in the general tone of their series'. It's likely that my first exposure to Who with serials like The Aztecs, Horror of Fang Rock, Genesis of the Daleks, The Green Death etc. shaped my view of the character, with the classic series Doctors - particularly Troughton, Pertwee, Baker 1 and McCoy - being who I think of as "my" Doctors, but I can't help but feel that both Moffat and Davies lost sight of the character a little in their interpretations. RTD in particular came across as a superfan given the keys to the toybox (it's hard not to read Vince from Queer as Folk as being a stand-in for RTD with his love of the series) and his (on occasion literal) deification of the Doctor was out of sync with what I liked about the character, but Moffat's love of elaborate season arcs and overly intricate plotting combined with his ultrageek superhero Doctor rankled the most.

Both writers are fantastic talents, and they brought a huge amount to the series, but for me it's definitely time for someone with a more straightforward story/monster-of-the-week approach and less of the series-long mysteries, fiddly-clockwork plotting and UberDoctor. In that respect, I think the new direction with Jodie Whittaker and the ensemble TARDIS crew is bang-on though there are big question marks for me over Chibnall's ability to take this forward - I've never been hugely impressed by his writing (his Torchwood work was pretty ropey, his Who episodes some of my least favourite, and Broadchurch a serious case of diminishing returns carried by excellent leads) and I think it's pretty telling that the strongest episode so far has been co-written.

Hoping for the best though, as I think this new setup has huge potential, Jodie is starting to give a good interpretation of the character, and the look and sound of the new series is fantastic.

APOEERA · Oct 29, 2018

After last week's masterful Rosa episode, this week wasn't as good as I would like. I was hoping it would be more of a homage to the Shining but with spiders; instead, it seemed to have the episode built around a character that is a stand-in for Trump and the solution for the episode wouldn't have been what the Doctor would have done in the past. Not to mention the overall explanation for the giant spiders is "you built a hotel on a waste site, so what did you expect would happen?"

Next week, I'm not exactly sure what the episode is about based on the preview.

So far, the show seems to be more back to the original Doctor in a lot of ways except I'm not completely onboard with Jodie's Doctor actually liking people or supposed to be. I guess the previous Doctors not fully understanding and not really caring about humans made it more like the character was above it all. Jodie's Doctor seems to be trying to figure things out just as much as the people traveling with her are.

caliph95 · Oct 29, 2018

Lashley said:
This was painful to watch. I fucking hate spiders.

That was me

I enjoyed this episode but damn was I uncomfortable

-shadow- · Oct 29, 2018

I haven't seen the episode yet due to being in theatre when it aired, will watch it later tonight probably.

Blader · Oct 29, 2018

M.Bluth said:
Problem is, Chibnall doesn't write fun dialog. He can't pull off those lovely sharp lines full of heart and oh so full of history like RTD, or Moffat's incredible speeches and masterful jokes. So the dialog really ends up being bland.

I'm having the same issue too. The dialogue is loaded with redundancies and often takes too much time to say too little (the opening scene with Roberts telling his assistant to cover up toxic waste issue was one particular offender), but also just doesn't have the same kind of energy that RTD and Moffat's did.

Xaszatm · Oct 29, 2018

M.Bluth said:
No. That's gone by the point 12 pops in, unless the story involves UNIT, which is fair enough considering he worked with them for what, 40, 50 years?
The problem isn't whether the Doctor is recognized or deified, to be honest, the Doctor as myth wasn't played up much outside of s6 to be such a vital issue now.
Quite honestly I'm not seeing how The Doctor is any different now from the "idiot with a box and screwdriver, just passing through, helping out" ethos. And just as name-droppy as ever!

Problem is, Chibnall doesn't write fun dialog. He can't pull off those lovely sharp lines full of heart and oh so full of history like RTD, or Moffat's incredible speeches and masterful jokes. So the dialog really ends up being bland.
It's no wonder he has only really nailed the characters with recent trauma so far, while 13 ends up with "Stock Doctor" speak, and Yaz gets shafted.

I don't know. I kind of got bored of "incredible" speeches after the second Moffat series. I actuallly really like the dialogue in this series in comparison because it isn't filled to the brim with comic book speeches. Small things like the interaction with Yaz's family are far more interesting to me than a grand speech.

APZonerunner · Oct 29, 2018

Xaszatm said:
I don't know. I kind of got bored of "incredible" speeches after the second Moffat series. I actuallly really like the dialogue in this series in comparison because it isn't filled to the brim with comic book speeches. Small things like the interaction with Yaz's family are far more interesting to me than a grand speech.

I think RTD sort of split the difference very well in this sense, though. We had the speeches, but it was generally much more subdued than the "I'm a badass" moments Smith's Doctor trotted out all the time. I also think Moffat got better about this with Capaldi's Doctor, to be fair to him, but the funny thing is I think if you split the difference now between what Chibnall's done so far with dialogue and what Moffat did before him, the middle ground is remarkably close to what Davies was doing between 05 and 10.

Xagarath · Oct 29, 2018

I think Chibnall's character dialogue is mostly very good, and although it's reminiscent of the RTD era he also has his own strengths - I'm enjoying his characterisation of the Doctor and the way she relates to the companions a lot more, probably because she does less grandstanding. Her more empathic approach also reminds me a lot of Five.

His plot-centric dialogue maybe overdoes the exposition a tad, but I don't think any of the modern showrunners struck a perfect balance. RTD could set things up like nobody's business but often glossed over details, Moffat could be very clever but was sometimes too keen to show it off, and Chibnall's scripts are refreshingly straightforward but over-explained. All three of them have issues with climaxes and resolutions (RTD relied on deus ex a lot, Moffat often left gaping plot-holes, and Chibnall's endings seem underbaked so far) - I'd say it's more of a problem with new Who in general.

Effect · Oct 29, 2018

zoojoo said:
I feel like a lot of people said very similar things about Capaldi in his first series. I think it took until the end of series 8 for his portrayal to come into coalescence, I think we ought to give Chib and Jodie the benefit of the doubt for now.

We go through this every time it seems. People know it takes time for a new Doctor to find their voice be it from a writing stand point and from the actor. Even then we see them change from season to season as the character evolves. The same is happening here and no one really should be surprised by it or unwilling to let it happen.

Blader · Oct 29, 2018

Xaszatm said:
I don't know. I kind of got bored of "incredible" speeches after the second Moffat series. I actuallly really like the dialogue in this series in comparison because it isn't filled to the brim with comic book speeches. Small things like the interaction with Yaz's family are far more interesting to me than a grand speech.

It's not as if Moffat wrote nothing but pages of monologues in every episode. The speech-ifying characterization of Moffat's writing has gotten overblown. I think what M. Bluth is referring to is a certain level of repartee in Moffat's (and RTD's) dialogue that you don't really get in Chibnall's so far.

APZonerunner said:
I think RTD sort of split the difference very well in this sense, though. We had the speeches, but it was generally much more subdued than the "I'm a badass" moments Smith's Doctor trotted out all the time.

ehh, I don't know, how many times did Tennant bark about being the Oncoming Storm?

Effect said:
We go through this every time it seems. People know it takes time for a new Doctor to find their voice be it from a writing stand point and from the actor. Even then we see them change from season to season as the character evolves. The same is happening here and no one really should be surprised by it or unwilling to let it happen.

speaking for myself, I already like Jodie's Doctor. The issue for me isn't needing time to get used to a new Doctor (which has never really been an issue for me before anyway -- I was sold on Tennant and Smith from the start, and Capaldi by his second episode), it's that Chibnall's writing is just bland. Which is something I was fearing going into this because of how largely bland his previous Who episodes had been. It's not like he has never written for this show before.

APZonerunner · Oct 29, 2018

Blader said:
ehh, I don't know, how many times did Tennant bark about being the Oncoming Storm?

I mean, you're right, but also I don't really associate the Tenth Doctor with that sort of bombast in the same way. Like, there's that joke in The Day of the Doctor where he grandstands to a rabbit, but the tenth Doctor never quite has a moment quite as self-indulgent as the "never put me in a trap" scene in The Time of Angels, the "let somebody else try first" in Pandorica, the memory eating scene from Akhaten, blah blah. If anything, I think a lot of that imagery with RTD was visual (the Tenth Doctor standing tall over someone, surrounded by flames, being carried by angels like christ ascending), whereas with the 11th it was more verbal, where Smith had two or three of those big speeches every year.

I also think there's a difference in utility a lot of the time, too - like when the 10th Doctor blathers on to Cyber Trigger about nothing in The Age of Steel, he's doing it to buy time to waltz across the room to the way-too-conveniently-placed phone dock that wins them the day. When the 11th Doctor does it to the Angels, he's literally just doing it to intimidate and show off.

Like, the speech the 11th Doctor gives the lead fish vampire lady in Vampires of Venice where he gives her a chance to leave and live is far closer to what we most often got from 10. 10 rarely stood on top of something and shouted his enemies down, but 11 did it all the time. I think it's telling that their final pre-regeneration scenes are both monologues, but for 10 it's a more personal rant, him and one other person, and for 11 it's standing on top of the clock tower shouting at Daleks before literally exploding them out of existence. That is their characterizations in a nutshell.

This was a trick Moffat got away with a lot, because these moments are cool - just have Gold blast something like "Words win Wars" and people will drink it down. Capaldi does it less, but the "Every time - You always lose!" scene with the Cyberman for 12 is functionally identical to the 11 Dalek scene. 12 also sort of developed the penchant for those speeches later on - interestingly, that first year Moffat transplanted that job to Danny Pink, who gets the big finale monologue (This is the promise of a solider, etc). Later on, 12 starts doing it more like 11 did.

Tizoc · Oct 29, 2018

I thought this was a good episode.
Really liking how Adventurous 13 is :3

ClivePwned · Oct 29, 2018

I am very glad the grandstanding speeches are gone.
One of the best parts of Twice Upon a Time were the Moffat tropes being queried by the first Doctor.
DOCTOR 12: And it is protected.
DOCTOR 1: It's what? Protected by whom?

I mean, Matt Smith did them well but they were just so awful once it was every single episode. They were done so often that some of Capaldi's ones are just a series of non-sequiturs.

The only thing worse than the speeches was the constant use of nursery rhymes and archaic grammar in order to make something sound more portentous during the Smith shows.

If only Chibs could actually get plots sorted. Last night's really goes nowhere.

M.Bluth · Oct 29, 2018

Blader said:
It's not as if Moffat wrote nothing but pages of monologues in every episode. The speech-ifying characterization of Moffat's writing has gotten overblown. I think what M. Bluth is referring to is a certain level of repartee in Moffat's (and RTD's) dialogue that you don't really get in Chibnall's so far.

Yup.

ClivePwned said:
I am very glad the grandstanding speeches are gone.
One of the best parts of Twice Upon a Time were the Moffat tropes being queried by the first Doctor.
DOCTOR 12: And it is protected.
DOCTOR 1: It's what? Protected by whom?

I understand where you're coming from even if I disagree since I enjoy the speeches, but when I say Chibnall's dialog is lacking, I'm not just saying I'm missing Doctory speeches... I can't think of a single memorable line from the past 4 episodes, something I am absolutely not used to from Doctor Who for the past 13 years.

Blader · Oct 29, 2018

There's a rumor going around that an animated episode of Doctor Who will screen at Phil Morris' Missing Believed Wiped event in December. It was apparently mentioned in the event schedules the BFI sent out today. No word on what the episode is though.

Hexxen-panda · Oct 29, 2018

Absolutely loved the new look of the time vortex, even though it looks lifted right out of Interstellar. Wish we saw more of it, but the VFX budget probably went to the spiders.

WhovianGamer · Oct 29, 2018

M.Bluth said:
Yup.

I understand where you're coming from even if I disagree since I enjoy the speeches, but when I say Chibnall's dialog is lacking, I'm not just saying I'm missing Doctory speeches... I can't think of a single memorable line from the past 4 episodes, something I am absolutely not used to from Doctor Who for the past 13 years.

Yeah it's the big standard dialogue that is markedly worse. The moment to moment chit chat is just woefully dull. Very little wit, sass or clever plays on words.

Naijaboy · Oct 29, 2018

What I fear is that Whitaker becomes a retread of 5's worst aspects, namely his inability to be effective. It's good to be challenged, but people can only handle the Doctor taking Ls for so long.

Veelk · Oct 29, 2018

WhovianGamer said:
Yeah it's the big standard dialogue that is markedly worse. The moment to moment chit chat is just woefully dull. Very little wit, sass or clever plays on words.

Right this moment, I don't especially care about that since previous who dialogue always felt artificial, as it was often just running toward the next joke or badass one liner. The dialogue here just feels more naturalistic for lacking that.

It will eventually get old and I'll want some witticism and zingers and so on, but right now I'm good with it.

Halbrand · Oct 29, 2018

zoojoo said:
I feel like a lot of people said very similar things about Capaldi in his first series. I think it took until the end of series 8 for his portrayal to come into coalescence, I think we ought to give Chib and Jodie the benefit of the doubt for now.

I don't know, I thought Capaldi nailed it from day 1 and he became my favourite Doctor in Deep Breath. Four episodes in and Jodie is fine but just hasn't made much of an impact, and the new writing direction isn't for me.

Also, RTD arguably made the Doctor more messianic than Moffat did. He was basically Jesus in the Series 3 finale with the Master, or Voyage of the Damned. It was in RTD's episode that the Doctor was referred to as "the lonely god." Moffat just made him more awesome.

APZonerunner · Oct 29, 2018

This was the episode where she really became the Doctor for me, and I think it's finally beginning to coalese which Doctors she's taking influence from - a lot of 10 and 5 in particular, than of course lots of her own choices. I really like where she's landed.

I think what the show sorely needs at this point is another good, y'know, alien threat. It's clear now why we saw so little in the trailers - in four episodes we've only really had one that was really alien and typical Doctor Who, and though the spiders and the space racist and the threats on Desolation were all competent, it's time for some traditional foils too.

I'm still working on the assumption we're going to get Daleks at Christmas, and that's really interesting. God knows how they as villains mesh with this new tone/dynamic/pace.

mclem · Oct 29, 2018

APZonerunner said:
I'm still working on the assumption we're going to get Daleks at Christmas, and that's really interesting. God knows how they as villains mesh with this new tone/dynamic/pace.

While it would be completely inappropriate and would never happen, I'm now imagining a nice green dalek with red bumps to look like a Christmas tree.

Edit: And now I would suggest doing a google image search for "dalek christmas tree". There's a range of people who've decorated their trees to look like daleks... to greater and lesser extents.

From the quite good...

...to the 'will this do?':

Paradox · Oct 29, 2018

I don't want to be that guy that just lists critiques of an episode that was probably meant to be harmless fun, but I feel kinda letdown after falsely thinking Rosa might be indicative of a trend rather than an anomaly, and also I'm bored, so:

- The plot: There are big spiders. The resolution: Lock the spiders in a room. That's it. An hour of TV for...that.
- In order to fill in the rest of the time we get a Trump analogue. Except he immediately namedrops and disassociates from Trump therefore nullifying the analogy. The President of the United States is a fascist and self-proclaimed white nationalist and the characteristic you choose to parody is...that he's a bit of an ass. And fires people. Great.
- We also get character stuff. Graham/Grace stuff? Great. Graham/Ryan stuff? Sure. Yaz? She gets a whole family and I still feel like we know barely anything about her. She walks in to a room and has a gun pointed at her and her mother and doesn't mention the fact that she's a police officer. It feels like we're given a family unit under the assumption that that immediately counts as characterisation.
- Her family are fine but generic. The kind but careless dad, the annoying sister, the naggy mum. Najia either says her name or assumes someone is dating her daughter.
- There was a long stretch of the episode with seven characters on screen at once and from what little I know about screenwriting that isn't manageable. The zoologist character may as well have been a text book they quoted from.
- Jodie is still being massively underserved by the writing. I understand the notion of waiting for a Doctor's first season to finish to get a true sense of character but so far she says one of three things; a fast-paced non-sequitur, a historical celebrity name-drop or a reiteration of her 'no guns' policy. I know people say you can usually write the Doctor generically but this is insanely generic.
- I'm still bemused by how this episode just ends. The spider gets shot, the Doctor moans, and then cut to unrelated Doctor/companion stuff. How did they get out when they couldn't earlier? What about the spiders in the panic room? More to the point, what about the spiders in the rest of the city? How did Najia feel about being nearly killed by giant spiders? Where did the zoologist go? What happened to the mummified bodies? Anything. I would've taken a minute long scene of not-Trump going back to his office, looking slightly remorseful, and then a spider crawls on a wall behind him and we cut to outside the room as he screams. Anything.

My biggest problem is that this is an episode from the showrunner. If this was a mid-season episode in the 13th Doctor's second season but some unknown writer, fine. But your fourth episode, your fourth idea but your brand new personally driven era is this? This is the thing you've been cooking in your head for the last 40+ years? Yikes.

Kschreck · Oct 29, 2018

The episode was ok but the resolution or quick fix was really lame. Likey they didn't even bother to explain what happened to all the other spiders...

LL_Decitrig · Oct 29, 2018

It did seem a bit strange that, faced with an American goon waving a gun around, the off-duty police officer didn't think to point out that his use of firearms in Sheffield was highly illegal. I waited in vain for Yaz to speak up.

BDS · Oct 29, 2018

I agree that a lot of the dialogue is very repetitive and the plots are very simple. I wonder how much of this is Chibnall and how much of this was the BBC making an intentional effort to appeal to the "casual audience" or younger kids that were alienated during the Moffat era by complex plots and wacky dialogue. The characters are very straightforward, frequently repeat themselves or explain what's happening, and the plots generally lack any confusing twists or surprises.

I don't hate it or anything, it's just a noticeable difference. Like many others have said, it almost feels like classic Who instead.

Blader · Oct 29, 2018

APZonerunner said:
I'm still working on the assumption we're going to get Daleks at Christmas, and that's really interesting. God knows how they as villains mesh with this new tone/dynamic/pace.

Chibnall has been pretty adamant up and down about no returning monsters this year... but come on, we all know he's lying.

also, this may be old news, but I saw a story going around today that - assuming filming doesn't start until January - Series 12 may not air until 2020. Which would be terrible if it happens. I think the season split in 2012/13 and especially Capaldi's gap year took a lot of wind out of the show's sails, and to take another year off right after a new Doctor has taken the role would be particularly damaging.

Sheepinator · Oct 29, 2018

Paradox said:
I don't want to be that guy that just lists critiques of an episode that was probably meant to be harmless fun, but I feel kinda letdown after falsely thinking Rosa might be indicative of a trend rather than an anomaly, and also I'm bored, so:

- The plot: There are big spiders. The resolution: Lock the spiders in a room. That's it. An hour of TV for...that.
- In order to fill in the rest of the time we get a Trump analogue. Except he immediately namedrops and disassociates from Trump therefore nullifying the analogy. The President of the United States is a fascist and self-proclaimed white nationalist and the characteristic you choose to parody is...that he's a bit of an ass. And fires people. Great.
- We also get character stuff. Graham/Grace stuff? Great. Graham/Ryan stuff? Sure. Yaz? She gets a whole family and I still feel like we know barely anything about her. She walks in to a room and has a gun pointed at her and her mother and doesn't mention the fact that she's a police officer. It feels like we're given a family unit under the assumption that that immediately counts as characterisation.
- Her family are fine but generic. The kind but careless dad, the annoying sister, the naggy mum. Najia either says her name or assumes someone is dating her daughter.
- There was a long stretch of the episode with seven characters on screen at once and from what little I know about screenwriting that isn't manageable. The zoologist character may as well have been a text book they quoted from.
- Jodie is still being massively underserved by the writing. I understand the notion of waiting for a Doctor's first season to finish to get a true sense of character but so far she says one of three things; a fast-paced non-sequitur, a historical celebrity name-drop or a reiteration of her 'no guns' policy. I know people say you can usually write the Doctor generically but this is insanely generic.
- I'm still bemused by how this episode just ends. The spider gets shot, the Doctor moans, and then cut to unrelated Doctor/companion stuff. How did they get out when they couldn't earlier? What about the spiders in the panic room? More to the point, what about the spiders in the rest of the city? How did Najia feel about being nearly killed by giant spiders? Where did the zoologist go? What happened to the mummified bodies? Anything. I would've taken a minute long scene of not-Trump going back to his office, looking slightly remorseful, and then a spider crawls on a wall behind him and we cut to outside the room as he screams. Anything.

My biggest problem is that this is an episode from the showrunner. If this was a mid-season episode in the 13th Doctor's second season but some unknown writer, fine. But your fourth episode, your fourth idea but your brand new personally driven era is this? This is the thing you've been cooking in your head for the last 40+ years? Yikes.

There's a lot of truth there. The zoologist couldn't have been just a text book though. She was the reason breaking into the neighbors apartment was justified, and she was the explanation for the spider enhancements, and that they used the same waste management company as the landfill. Although that also means she or her colleagues carelessly discarded a not quite dead creature.

APZonerunner · Oct 29, 2018

Blader said:
Chibnall has been pretty adamant up and down about no returning monsters this year... but come on, we all know he's lying.

also, this may be old news, but I saw a story going around today that - assuming filming doesn't start until January - Series 12 may not air until 2020. Which would be terrible if it happens. I think the season split in 2012/13 and especially Capaldi's gap year took a lot of wind out of the show's sails, and to take another year off right after a new Doctor has taken the role would be particularly damaging.

He's actually chosen his words really carefully, though. On the Daleks: "We've got two weeks left of shooting, and we haven't seen them yet," and while he has used the phrase "this year", it's always been in the context of 'this year's run', IE series 11... which Christmas isn't technically part of. Like, he has said something approximating 'No Daleks this year', but also in the same breath as saying 'We've finished this year's episodes, and we're just about to start Christmas'. We know there's going to be a Christmas Special, anyway, and whatever it is has had zero public filming. I really think that's probably going to be what it is. We'll see though. I could also see a stand-alone Christmas story with a Dalek-related cliffhanger that leads into Series 12, tbh.

RE the rest - they really need to lock the show into a rhythm and regularity ASAP. Hopefully the ratings success continues and the BBC fast-tracks and provides extra money to get it on this time next year, though I could also see them bumping it back to the Spring... which would indeed make it 2020.

zooj · Oct 29, 2018

Effect said:
We go through this every time it seems. People know it takes time for a new Doctor to find their voice be it from a writing stand point and from the actor. Even then we see them change from season to season as the character evolves. The same is happening here and no one really should be surprised by it or unwilling to let it happen.

13 even says something to that effect in this latest episode, that she's "still figuring herself out"

EvilRedEye · Oct 29, 2018

If they want to go back to Easter, they need to transition by breaking Series 12 into two halves around Christmas 2019. Another 12 month break would be a disaster.

Kinsei · Oct 29, 2018

The last episode really energized people. There's already a ton of Doctor & Yaz fanfic out there.

Paradox · Oct 29, 2018

Sheepinator said:
There's a lot of truth there. The zoologist couldn't have been just a text book though. She was the reason breaking into the neighbors apartment was justified, and she was the explanation for the spider enhancements, and that they used the same waste management company as the landfill. Although that also means she or her colleagues carelessly discarded a not quite dead creature.

Sure, I just meant in terms of pure characterisation. Like, try to describe her character other than her knowing stuff about spiders.

Sheepinator · Oct 29, 2018

Paradox said:
Sure, I just meant in terms of pure characterisation. Like, try to describe her character other than her knowing stuff about spiders.

That's like almost every guest cast member in every procedural. Regardless, she definitely couldn't have been replaced by a textbook. The rest of your post had many great points, just not that one.

EvilChameleon · Oct 29, 2018

I think the series is just missing that galactic feel. We've seen only one non-humanoid alien so far. And only one alien planet.

Actually, hell, you could say Tim Shaw was humanoid as well.

Yautja_Warrior · Oct 29, 2018

Love the SFX for the spiders, they looked great, better than many movies that feature giant spiders tbh. I can imagine a lot of people were genuinely freaked out by Doctors Who with this episode.

They really threw some money at this season and it shows.

NekoNeko · Oct 29, 2018

i'm sure i'm in the minority here but i liked this episode the best so far.

Zomba13 · Oct 29, 2018

Wasn't a fan of this one. I though the Trump analogy was all over the place. I guess it's supposed to play on the whole thing with Trump running for president because he hated Obama, so you get not-Trump running for President because he hates Trump but then if he's supposed to be a fascist white nationalist then why would he want to run against Trump? And rather than focussing on the racism and evil of Trump it decides "lol he's a business man who is bad at business and fires people" and other than that was just your regular who dickhead who needs saving.

The end result for the spiders, lock them in a room till they die, also was bad. Like, you have the Doctor and the zoologist who are all "they are living creatures who deserve to live" but then the solution is "lock them in a box until they run out of food and die". And then when the big one is suffocating and in pain the solution the doctor seems to want is "let it die on its own" but when Trump-Lite 'merica's the spider and even says "I put it out of it's misery" then the Doctor is angry. Like, the guy was a dick, and shot at it because he wanted to be a big man with a gun and killed it for all the wrong reasons, but it was clear it was in pain and when shot it died quickly, which I think would be the more humane death than compared to what the other spiders will have when they are stuck in that room and either starve, eat each other, suffocate (from either being too big to breathe right or there being too many at too big a size for enough oxygen).

Then like posted above, what of the other spiders? There were incidents all over Sheffield, was every spider called back to the hotel somehow? What about the one they left in the apartment? Won't the other spiders grow larger, be confused and start hunting humans like the ones we were shown did?

Riversands · Oct 29, 2018

Zomba13 said:
Wasn't a fan of this one. I though the Trump analogy was all over the place. I guess it's supposed to play on the whole thing with Trump running for president because he hated Obama, so you get not-Trump running for President because he hates Trump but then if he's supposed to be a fascist white nationalist then why would he want to run against Trump?

No. I think it is more like an irony style storytelling. The guy hated trump, but the irony is he was actually more like him.

Also, i think i've already found what part that needs some works in this season. It's the Rising Up sequence. In scriptwriting there are usually 7 story sequences: Status Quo, breaking status quo, journey, false victory, downfall, rising up, aftermath

All of those are fine in this season, except one. The rising up sequence. It feels to short and too easy, the impact it gives doesnt resonate with me. I also feel this way in the second episode in which ryan can defeat the villain that easily. If it is that easy, why cant he just do that earlier? You get what i mean?

Metal Gear Miyamoto · Oct 29, 2018

APZonerunner said:
He's actually chosen his words really carefully, though. On the Daleks: "We've got two weeks left of shooting, and we haven't seen them yet," and while he has used the phrase "this year", it's always been in the context of 'this year's run', IE series 11... which Christmas isn't technically part of. Like, he has said something approximating 'No Daleks this year', but also in the same breath as saying 'We've finished this year's episodes, and we're just about to start Christmas'. We know there's going to be a Christmas Special, anyway, and whatever it is has had zero public filming.

To add to this point: one of the rumors that keeps popping up says that the Christmas special has been moved to New Years Day. Which would make Chibnall correct on the "no returning monsters this year".

So far i'm tremendously impressed by how well the ratings are holding up. When live+7 figures are included, we'll have had 4 episodes in a row that scored 8 million viewers in a row! Without any returning monsters and continuity kept to a minimum.
It's great to see such a fresh start get so much succes.

Platy · Oct 29, 2018

Dipro said:
i'm sure i'm in the minority here but i liked this episode the best so far.

It certanly felt the more old school so far

Watchtower · Oct 29, 2018

The Trump analogue is easily the weakest part of the episode, primarily because I have no idea what's even the point. Like, yeah, it's punching me really hard in the face with the Trump commentary, and it's certainly not saying wrong....but I just have no idea why. Rosa did the same thing, but the entire episode was built around it. This just....comes off as an extra bit of fluff. Replace him with a generic British politician and the story remains effectively the same.

Oh, and yeah, the final bit is completely weird. They find the big spider, and it's dying, and the Doctor sulks about what to do, only for Not!Trump to go "Fire and Fury!!" and shoot it. And she gets all mad because he used a gun but he just shrugs it off and leaves. And then we never see him again. And then the episode ends. K.

And yet I can't exactly call this a bad episode, primarily because the Doctor and "Team Tardis" are so damn good with each other. The whole season's main focus is clearly on their interactions and development with each other and on that note they're hitting it amazingly.

(Also, is it just me, or is there a lot of lesbian emphasis in this season? The woman in The Phantom Monument, the first woman here, the present Yaz/Doctor teasing....not saying it's bad or anything, just intrigued.)

BouncyFrag · Oct 29, 2018

Just finished the episode. It was meh. I perked up when I saw Chris Noth, but his character was a joke and I couldn't take him seriously. I liked how it ended with the companions solidifying with the Doctor. TT is a little corny, it's okay. I do like the music a lot.

I'm still waiting for a proper Doctor hero moment.

Deadly Cyclone · Oct 29, 2018

For sure the most Doctor Who episode so far, and it was good. Main hotel guy reminds me so much of Alec Baldwin (I know he's Sex and the City dude).

Xaszatm · Oct 29, 2018

Riversands said:
No. I think it is more like an irony style storytelling. The guy hated trump, but the irony is he was actually more like him.

Also, i think i've already found what part that needs some works in this season. It's the Rising Up sequence. In scriptwriting there are usually 7 story sequences: Status Quo, breaking status quo, journey, false victory, downfall, rising up, aftermath

All of those are fine in this season, except one. The rising up sequence. It feels to short and too easy, the impact it gives doesnt resonate with me. I also feel this way in the second episode in which ryan can defeat the villain that easily. If it is that easy, why cant he just do that earlier? You get what i mean?

Eh, to be fair to Rosa, the villain was never supposed to be the time traveler. Sure he's causing all the trouble but he's not really the villain, the main central antagonistic force. That was the racism that permeated the city. That's the true villain and it is the focus of the actual climax. Now this episode, I agree, the rising up wasn't that great.

Riversands · Oct 29, 2018

Cyclone said:
For sure the most Doctor Who episode so far, and it was good. Main hotel guy reminds me so much of Alec Baldwin (I know he's Sex and the City dude).

For some reason i keep imagining him as Henry Fon Beauregard The Third from King Falls.

PaulloDEC · Oct 29, 2018

LL_Decitrig said:
It did seem a bit strange that, faced with an American goon waving a gun around, the off-duty police officer didn't think to point out that his use of firearms in Sheffield was highly illegal. I waited in vain for Yaz to speak up.

Damn, that's right! I remember thinking from the moment Chris Noth's character started throwing his weight around that Yaz ought to just reveal that she's police.

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