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Oct 25, 2017
13,678
The ECHR ruled against an Austrian woman who claimed calling the Prophet Muhammad a pedophile was protected by free speech. The applicant claimed she was contributing to public debate.


An Austrian woman's conviction for calling the Prophet Muhammad a pedophile did not violate her freedom of speech, the European Court of Human Rights ruled Thursday.

The Strasbourg-based ECHR ruled that Austrian courts carefully balanced the applicant's "right to freedom of expression with the right of others to have their religious feelings protected, and served the legitimate aim of preserving religious peace in Austria."

The woman in 2009 held two seminars entitled "Basic Information on Islam," during which she likened Muhammad's marriage to a six-year-old girl, Aisha, to pedophilia.

The marriage according to Islamic tradition was consummated when Aisha was nine and Muhammad was around 50.
Aisha was the daughter of Muhammad's best friend and the first caliph, Abu Bakr.

The court cited the Austrian women stating during the seminar that Muhammad "liked to do it with children" and "... A 56-year-old and a six-year-old? ... What do we call it, if it is not pedophilia?"

An Austrian court later convicted the woman of disparaging religion and fined her €480 ($546). Other domestic courts upheld the decision before the case was brought before the ECHR.


The ECHR recognized that freedom of religion did not exempt people from expecting criticism or denial of their religion.

However, it found that the woman's comments were not objective, failed to provide historical background and had no intention of promoting public debate.

https://m.dw.com/en/calling-prophet...n-freedom-of-speech-european-court/a-46050749

Mod edit for more context:

The person convicted is part of the right-wing-extremist FPÖ. Among other things, they once made a game playable on their website called "Moschee-Baba", where you have to move target reticles over mosques to stop them from growing. These people are also part of the government since the last election, making racism and islamophobia approachable for everyone.

This was not a presentation built on discussing Islam. This was one of uncountable action to denounce and attack muslims in an effort to get them out of Austria.

Very important post:


The court didn't have issues with evidence that Muhammed had sex with a child, something very well documented and rarely disputed. However, the court found no evidence that Muhammed was a pedophile.
Again, from the ruling:


She should've just said Muhammed raped Aisha, given that nine year olds can't consent regardless of their cultural or historical context. Instead she used a label to describe Muhammed's inner desires instead of just his actions, and the court ruled that is conjecture.
 
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SaviourMK2

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,711
CT
Man marries a 6 year old? 100% pedophilia. No religious belief (Muslim or Christian) will change that. There's nothing to debate other than either the scripture is false or not at that point.
 

uzipukki

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,722
1363588445823567319.GIF
 

Zhukov

Banned
Dec 6, 2017
2,641
Legit curious to see which way the fine upstanding folks of Era will fall on this one.
 

spam musubi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,381
I bet this thread is going to be delightful. Fun fact: this little detail about the prophet's life is generally excluded in religion classes in middle school in Turkey, so people get pretty defensive when it's brought up.
 

Piecake

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,298
Uh...

If they consummated the marriage when she was 9, then she was simply stating a fact.

Facts aren't protected speech in Europe?
 

Subpar Scrub

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,576
"I don't mind that one of the most important figures in my religion is a pedo, but don't point it out! >:(" - pieces of shit
 

Hexa

Saw the truth behind the copied door
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,738
"Religious feelings"? I'm sorry, what?
 

SmokingBun

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,091
User Banned (2 Weeks): Islamophobia, previous severe infractions.
You know it's hard to support Muslim folks when their religion is like this . I wanna like you guys but seriously?

Mod Edit: Post reverted to original status.
 
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signal

Member
Oct 28, 2017
40,199
The ECHR recognized that freedom of religion did not exempt people from expecting criticism or denial of their religion.
However, it found that the woman's comments were not objective, failed to provide historical background and had no intention of promoting public debate.

I guess this is trying to say it IS freedom of speech but that in this case the statement had no purpose other than to antagonize or something?
 

OrdinaryPrime

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
11,042
Nice edit bro. Why didn't you stick with your original post? Coward.

Mods can see all edits. Hopefully they sort it out if enough people report it.

I guess this is trying to say it IS freedom of speech but that in this case the statement had no purpose other than to antagonize or something?

Since when has freedom of speech necessitated proof? Does this ruling say that if I say I believe unicorns exist on Earth in 2018 and it offends someone that I can't say it? Honestly what the fuck is this ruling.
 

Sinfamy

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,724
Muhammad was a pedophile, and so is the majority of the Catholic church, fuck all of your religious feelings.
EU continues to disappoint, but what else is new.
 

cervanky

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,296
When it's disputed that Muhammad was a pedophile, is that because the age of Aisha is disputed (that is, one would claim that she did not consummate her marriage to Muhammad at the age of 9 or 10 like most traditional sources claim)? Or is it instead disputed because while they acknowledge that he did sleep with a 9 year old child, they'd maintain that he somehow isn't a pedophile? I'm just confused by why the court would claim the labelling of him isn't "objective" and "failed to provide historical background", are they suggesting that the label of pedophilia is somehow a cultural construct...? Like what are they trying to imply there.
 

syllogism

Member
Oct 25, 2017
88
ECHR didn't rule that - the Austrian courts did. ECHR ruled that the balance of the rights in this specific situation fell under the principle of the margin of appreciation and allowed Austrian courts to balance these rights as they had chosen to.
 

signal

Member
Oct 28, 2017
40,199
Since when has freedom of speech necessitated proof? Does this ruling say that if I say I believe unicorns exist on Earth in 2018 and it offends someone that I can't say it? Honestly what the fuck is this ruling.
Basically.. But while I agree that just antagonising people is unnecessary, I'm not sure it's acceptable to fine her, if it's still kinda.. Not really wrong?
Not defending it just guessing as to their reasoning.
 
OP
OP
AcademicSaucer
Oct 25, 2017
13,678
Basically.. But while I agree that just antagonising people is unnecessary, I'm not sure it's acceptable to fine her, if it's still kinda.. Not really wrong?
I wonder how far does that go now that they have ruled like this, for example if I say that God doesn't exist do I have to prove that I'm saying it to promote public debate and not just to antagonize people otherwise I will face prosecution?
 

Sander VF

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
25,971
Tbilisi, Georgia
Here's from the judgement itself:
(ii) Application of the above principles to the instant case

50. The Court notes at the outset that the subject matter of the instant case is of a particularly sensitive nature, and that the (potential) effects of the impugned statements, to a certain degree, depend on the situation in the respective country where the statements were made, at the time and in the context they were made. Accordingly, and notwithstanding some of the domestic courts' considerations such as the duration of the marriage in question, the Court therefore considers that the domestic authorities had a wide margin of appreciation in the instant case, as they were in a better position to evaluate which statements were likely to disturb the religious peace in their country.

51. The Court notes that the domestic courts considered the applicant's statements as having been made "public" (see paragraph 14 in fine above). Indeed, the seminars were widely advertised to the public on the Internet and via leaflets. The latter were sent out by the head of the right-wing Freedom Party, addressing them especially to young voters and praising them as "top seminars" in the framework of a "free education package". The applicant's intervention was entitled "Basic information on Islam" and was meant to be a critical analysis of Islamic doctrine, allowing for a discussion with the participants of the seminars. The title gave the – in hindsight misleading – impression that the seminars would include objective information on Islam. It appears that anyone interested was able to enrol; there was no requirement to be a member of the Freedom Party. The applicant therefore could not assume that there would only be like-minded people in the room who would share her very critical views of Islam, but had to expect that there could also be people among the audience who might be offended by her statements. It is of little relevance that only thirty people attended on average. The applicant's statements were in fact recorded by a journalist, who had participated in the seminar, and whose employer subsequently reported them to the public prosecutor (see paragraph 9 above).

52. The Court reiterates that a religious group must tolerate the denial by others of their religious beliefs and even the propagation by others of doctrines hostile to their faith, as long as the statements at issue do not incite hatred or religious intolerance. Article 188 of the Criminal Code (see paragraph 24 above) in fact does not incriminate all behaviour that is likely to hurt religious feelings or amounts to blasphemy, but additionally requires that the circumstances of such behaviour were able to arouse justified indignation, therefore aiming at the protection of religious peace and tolerance. The Court notes that the domestic courts extensively explained why they considered that the applicant's statements had been capable of arousing justified indignation, namely that they had not been made in an objective manner aiming at contributing to a debate of public interest, but could only be understood as having been aimed at demonstrating that Muhammad was not a worthy subject of worship (see paragraph 22 above). The Court endorses this assessment.

53. When saying "What do we call it, if it is not paedophilia?" the applicant, according to her own statements, was quoting a conversation she had had with her sister, who was of the opinion that "one [had] to paraphrase [the accusation that Muhammad was a paedophile], say it in a more diplomatic way". The Court notes that the applicant described herself as an expert in the field of Islamic doctrine, already having held seminars of that kind for a while. Her argument that the impugned statements had been made in the context of a lively discussion, where they could not be revoked anymore (see paragraph 34 above), is therefore not convincing (contrary to what had been the case in Gündüz, cited above). The Court therefore agrees with the domestic courts that the applicant must have been aware that her statements were partly based on untrue facts and apt to arouse (justified) indignation in others. In that context, the Court reiterates that the Convention States are even required, under their positive obligations under Article 9 of the Convention, to ensure the peaceful co-existence of religious and non-religious groups and individuals under their jurisdiction by ensuring an atmosphere of mutual tolerance (see paragraph 44 above). The Court endorses the Regional Court's statement in its judgment of 15 February 2011, that presenting objects of religious worship in a provocative way capable of hurting the feelings of the followers of that religion could be conceived as a malicious violation of the spirit of tolerance, which was one of the bases of a democratic society (see paragraph 15 in fine above).

54. The Court notes that the domestic courts qualified the impugned statements as value judgments, based on a detailed analysis of the wording of the statements made (see, in particular, paragraph 18 above). They found that the applicant had subjectively labelled Muhammad with paedophilia as his general sexual preference, and that she failed to neutrally inform her audience of the historical background, which consequently did not allow for a serious debate on that issue (see paragraphs 14-15 and 17-18 above). The Court therefore agrees with the domestic courts that the impugned statements can be classified as value judgments without sufficient factual basis. Even if they were to be classified as factual statements, which the applicant insisted, she has failed to adduce any evidence to that end, both during the domestic proceedings and before the Court.

55. As to the applicant's argument that a few individual statements had to be tolerated during a lively discussion, the Court considers that it is not compatible with Article 10 of the Convention to pack incriminating statements into the wrapping of an otherwise acceptable expression of opinion and deduce that this would render the statements exceeding the permissible limits of freedom of expression passable. Moreover, the applicant was wrong to assume that improper attacks on religious groups had to be tolerated even if they were based on untrue facts (see paragraph 35 above). On the contrary, the Court has held that statements which are based on (manifestly) untrue facts do not enjoy the protection of Article 10 (see, mutatis mutandis,Giniewski, § 52, cited above, and Medžlis Islamske Zajednice Brčko and Others v. Bosnia and Herzegovina [GC], no 17224/11, § 117, ECHR 2017).

56. Lastly, the Court reiterates that the applicant was ordered to pay a moderate fine of only EUR 480 in total for the three statements made, although the Criminal Code alternatively would have provided for up to six months' imprisonment. Furthermore, the fine imposed was on the lower end of the statutory range of punishment of up to 360 day-fines, namely only 120 day-fines, and the domestic courts applied only the minimum day‑fine of EUR 4. Though the applicant had no previous criminal record and this was taken into account as a mitigating factor, her repeated infringement had to be considered as an aggravating factor. Under the circumstances, the Court does not consider the criminal sanction as disproportionate.

57. The Court, in conclusion, finds that in the instant case the domestic courts comprehensively assessed the wider context of the applicant's statements, and carefully balanced her right to freedom of expression with the rights of others to have their religious feelings protected, and to have religious peace preserved in Austrian society. They discussed the permissible limits of criticism of religious doctrines versus their disparagement, and found that the applicant's statements had been likely to arouse justified indignation in Muslims. In addition, the Court considers that the impugned statements were not phrased in a neutral manner aimed at being an objective contribution to a public debate concerning child marriages (contrast Aydın Tatlav andGiniewski, both cited above), but amounted to a generalisation without factual basis. Thus, by considering them as going beyond the permissible limits of an objective debate and classifying them as an abusive attack on the Prophet of Islam, which was capable of stirring up prejudice and putting at risk religious peace, the domestic courts came to the conclusion that the facts at issue contained elements of incitement to religious intolerance. The Court accepts that they thereby put forward relevant and sufficient reasons and finds that the interference with the applicant's rights under Article 10 indeed corresponded to a pressing social need and was proportionate to the legitimate aim pursued.

58. Therefore, the Court considers that the domestic courts did not overstep their – wide – margin of appreciation in the instant case when convicting the applicant of disparaging religious doctrines. Accordingly, there has been no violation of Article 10 of the Convention.

The entire judgement can be found at HUDOC.
 

OrdinaryPrime

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Oct 27, 2017
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I wonder how far does that go now that they have ruled like this, for example if I say that God doesn't exist do I have to prove that I'm saying it to promote public debate and not just to antagonize people otherwise I will face prosecution?

How do you even prove a negative?

I tend to shy away from slippery slope arguments because they tend to be vacuous but having this precedent is just crazy.

Edit: Quoting from the ruling text:

When saying "What do we call it, if it is not paedophilia?" the applicant, according to her own statements, was quoting a conversation she had had with her sister, who was of the opinion that "one [had] to paraphrase [the accusation that Muhammad was a paedophile], say it in a more diplomatic way". The Court notes that the applicant described herself as an expert in the field of Islamic doctrine, already having held seminars of that kind for a while. Her argument that the impugned statements had been made in the context of a lively discussion, where they could not be revoked anymore (see paragraph 34 above), is therefore not convincing (contrary to what had been the case in Gündüz, cited above). The Court therefore agrees with the domestic courts that the applicant must have been aware that her statements were partly based on untrue facts and apt to arouse (justified) indignation in others.

1. What is an "untrue fact"? That seems contradictory.
2. One should shy away from pushing the truth here? So if I said something similar about Joseph because he married Mary when she was 13 or 14 and he was 28 I'm telling an "untrue fact?" (I know technically it's hebephilia)
3. Sometimes the truth provokes indignation because people are blind to it.

I'm sorry this is just plain fucked. Listen I'm all for being sensitive to people's beliefs and treating others with respect. There is no question that 99% of the time these types of cases I tend to be on the side of tolerance. But I just cannot get on board with this type of shit. Perhaps it's my own personal biases about religion, I'm not sure.
 
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Westbahnhof

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
10,108
Austria
Not defending it just guessing as to their reasoning.
Oh, of course. Just agreeing with you, then adding my opinion on their reasoning.
I think what this woman did was pretty stupid, but I'm not sure it should be fineable. Like... She's just taking official teachings and looking at them using today's laws, nah?
At the same time, she used the guise of an objective seminar to try to spread her hatred of a faith. So... I won't feel bad for her.
 

SmokingBun

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,091
Nice edit bro. Why didn't you stick with your original post? Coward.

Felt it may have been mean spirited.

Lot's of fucked up stuff in the Bible too, Lot having sex with his daughters etc
But I find Muhammed being a pedo is used as a tool, justification to be anti-Muslim
You know cuz 1 guy thousands of years ago was a bit fucked in the head, so Sinhead O'Connor must be too
 

kittoo

Banned
Apr 20, 2018
164
The way Europe mollycoddles Islam is weird to me. They are all about free speech, liberal ideas, open discussion on everything- until it's about Islam. Then they get their assed clenched.
He was a pedophile. It's a fact! Now facts aren't even under free speech?
 

cervanky

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,296
From the ruling:
They found that the applicant had subjectively labelled Muhammad with paedophilia as his general sexual preference, and that she failed to neutrally inform her audience of the historical background, which consequently did not allow for a serious debate on that issue (see paragraphs 14-15 and 17-18 above).
oh.

Also from the ruling:
by accusing Muhammad of paedophilia, the applicant had merely sought to defame him, without providing evidence that his primary sexual interest in Aisha had been her not yet having reached puberty or that his other wives or concubines had been similarly young. In particular, the applicant had disregarded the fact that the marriage with Aisha had continued until the Prophet's death, when she had already turned eighteen and had therefore passed the age of puberty.

So basically the court agrees that yes he slept with a pre-pubescent child, but there's no evidence that he liked it or that his other wives were also children, and Aisha eventually reached adulthood anyway and so it wouldn't have been pedophilia anymore after the age of 18, so therefore there was no factual basis for her claim.

Fuck that.
 

Piecake

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,298
The way Europe mollycoddled Islam is weird to me. They are all about free speech, liberal ideas, open discussion on everything- until it's about Islam. Then they get their assed clenched.
He was a pedophile. It's a fact! Now facts aren't even under free speech?

They have a rather weird relationship as a lot of European countries have no problem banning the Hijab
 
OP
OP
AcademicSaucer
Oct 25, 2017
13,678
From the ruling:

oh.

Also from the ruling:


So basically the court agrees that yes he slept with a pre-pubescent child, but there's no evidence that he liked it or that his other wives were also children, and Aisha eventually reached adulthood anyway and so it wouldn't have been pedophilia anymore after the age of 18, so therefore there was no factual basis for her claim.

Fuck that.
Man those are some amazing mental gymnastics.
 

OrdinaryPrime

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Banned
Oct 27, 2017
11,042
Felt it may have been mean spirited.

Lot's of fucked up stuff in the Bible too, Lot having sex with his daughters etc
But I find Muhammed being a pedo is used as a tool, justification to be anti-Muslim
You know cuz 1 guy thousands of years ago was a bit fucked in the head, so Sinhead O'Connor must be too

There are plenty of justifiable reasons to be anti-Islam. I would make the differentiation between anti-Islam and anti-Muslim clear though. Most organized religion have fucked up things, the comparisons to other Abrahamic religions are easy and hard to disagree with.

The person in question thinks of themselves as an expert in Islamic doctrine. I think the idea that they aren't well versed in this is unfounded and part of the basis of the ruling.
 

SmokingBun

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,091
I think at some point, Muslim folks have to take ownership and be like, "Yeah, it was a different time but today he'd be a pedo. But being Muslim doesn't involve doing EVERYTHING the prophet did."

There are plenty of justifiable reasons to be anti-Islam.

Such as?

Sati or widow burning was totally a thing in Hinduism, are we gonna expose everyone's dirty laundry today?
 

OrdinaryPrime

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Oct 27, 2017
11,042
I think at some point, Muslim folks have to take ownership and be like, "Yeah, it was a different time but today he'd be a pedo. But being Muslim doesn't involve doing EVERYTHING the prophet did."

Your naivete is startling.

There is no way any of the large religions ever treat their savior that way.