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L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
50,042
Well regardless of how defensible or indefensible you think his voicing of Apu is or Hari's anger is, it understandably would have been a bad look for Hank to go on record about it in an interview specifically intended for a film that's about making a strong case against him and that character. Maybe that wasn't Hari's intention and he really did take a more investigative approach and Hank's refusal to participate changed the tone of the movie though, who knows.

Would saying "I made a mistake" be a worse look than refusing to talk because someone else is in control?

Regardless, this can continue forever, so I'll just say this. Hari was essentially trying to express how he and people similar to him felt, tried to get the opinions of unrelated people who could offer a perspective (Whoopi Goldberg because of her knowledge of blackface), and tried to get the side of the story from the people who were responsible for Apu in the first place.

For that rather open approach, for that emphasis on discussion, do you think he should be painted as a bully or a whiner? Why would a person want to paint him as one of those?
 
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crimzonflame

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,758
This would have been the perfect scene:

Lisa: "Apu, you look like you have something to say? Do you?"
Apu: "Yes, I certainly do. I have to go now. My country needs me."
*Note* Apu died on the way back to his home country.
Bart: Wow! Apu came from another country?
 

WrenchNinja

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,745
Canada
I guess what I'm having trouble understanding is how a white dude doing an impression of an indian accent for a cartoon character is any more racist than someone impersonating a stereotypical accent of someone of another ethnicity. Or as racist as Peter Sellers straight-up doing all of that while wearing brownface in a movie.
Because it's a racist impression of a racist impression. How is this a thing you don't understand?
But I'm having difficulty pinpointing Hari's reason for why Apu is supposed to be as racist as he's trying to persuade audiences of in the documentary. Why is Apu that much worse than the many other characters on a show that's pretty democratic with stereotyping anyone and everyone?
Because he's the only damn brown person of note on the show.
What made Apu go from "remember that character from the Simpsons who sounded like a lame caricature of indian immigrants and how we just accepted it back then before laughing at the absurdity of it?" to "Apu is such a massive problem, that I must finance and make a feature length documentary to vent about how much of a problem he is and take it upon myself to educate the rubes who actually still disagree with this".
Apu was always a problem. It's just nobody was listening to south asians in the 90s, the kids who grew up in the 90s are adults with various platforms to let their voice be heard. But to be honest, seeing all this push back from a comedic documentary shows that people still don't want to listen.

Hari has avoided having an in depth conversation about it on neutral ground with Azaria or a smart, compassionate person who doesn't completely agree with him isn't doing him any favors.
You can't be serious with this
 

Minky

Verified
Oct 27, 2017
481
UK
Not that the show has been worth watching for decades now anyway, but the fact that it's come to this is fucking stupid. Are people really that upset by Apu? Is this an actual issue worthy of such an extreme reaction?
 

Don Fluffles

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,061
Shame, they didn't fully need to drop him, just update him and have an actual indian play him.

Can't wait for my youtube front page be filled with videos from assholes angry that they did this. Oh boy.
That's my thought. It would help partially redeem the show by giving him extra character development.
Removing a character is the easy way out.
 

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
50,042
Not that the show has been worth watching for decades now anyway, but the fact that it's come to this is fucking stupid. Are people really that upset by Apu? Is this an actual issue worthy of such an extreme reaction?
Apu sucks and it was nice seeing in the documentary that there were people who also felt that, but I probably wouldn't have cared enough to make a documentary about it myself. What's really more upsetting to me is how bad the response has been - whether it's by the people working on the show or by people in these threads.
 

Meffer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,393
User Banned (5 Days): Disingenuous argument dismissing concerns surrounding minority casting
The point being made is that often, Indians can't act whoever. They're stuck doing an accent or their roles go to white people.
Samurai Jack is voiced by a black man. Not going to make a big stink about that?
 

DarkJ

Member
Nov 11, 2017
1,096
Almost all the Apu related episodes are pretty golden. My favorite is probably the Valentine's day one where he makes all the other men look bad. Probably up there for best character outside of the core family.
 

leburn98

Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,637
Not sure how I feel about this. However one thing is for sure, if they are willing to completely remove a character over these issues instead of actually putting in the work to better them, then I hate to see what they will do with the below characters should someone create a stink about them.

For example, here are a few other minority characters that are voiced by Hank Azaria:

Bumblebee Man - Mexican decent with a stereotypical accent
Dr. Nick Riviera - Hispanic decent, with another over the top accent.
Carl Carlson Jr. - Thankfully not stereotypical, but another example of a white man voicing a minority
Officer Lou - Similar to Carl

These are just the characters voiced by Hank Azaria, this does not include those by Harry Shearer (Dr. Hibbert and Judge Snyder) and Tress MacNeille (Bernice Hibbert and Apu's wife Manjula) to name a few.
 
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Oct 26, 2017
6,818
We're struggling to find the right tone with a minority character, so the solution is to just completely remove the character from existence.

Wat?

How hard is to have Apu played or written by someone of Indian decent? King of the Hill did a pretty good job with their Asian characters. Minh and Connie was voiced by an Asian actor. While Kanh was voiced by a white guy, the Kahn character overall wasn't just a punching bag or conformed to low-level Asian stereo-types. Kahn was a complete character on the show, both strong and vulnerable, and the show addressed some issues Asian Americans face even though the show was centered around a bunch of Texan hillbillies. If King of the Hill was at least able to head in the right direction 15-20 years ago, then you'd think The Simpsons could figure how to get it right in 2018.

It's ironic that King of the Hill is looking more and more like the real progressive show as time passes by.
 

Superking

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,622
That being said, one of my all time favorite Simpsons episodes was centered around Apu (the episode when he gets his citizenship).
 

DeltaRed

Member
Apr 27, 2018
5,746
737085.jpg
 

Heid

Member
Jan 7, 2018
1,808
So... why was Apu singled out in all of this and not any of Simpsons other stereotypes?

The Italian Chef, grounds keeper Willie, Cletus the inbred southener, if my memory of the Stereotypes Bowling team serves me correctly lol is it because hes brown so its the most obvious one? Yeah you dun fucked up.
 

iliketopaint_93

Use of alt account
Member
Sep 3, 2018
597
Would saying "I made a mistake" be a worse look than refusing to talk because someone else is in control?

Regardless, this can continue forever, so I'll just say this. Hari was essentially trying to express how he and people similar to him felt, tried to get the opinions of unrelated people who could offer a perspective (Whoopi Goldberg because of her knowledge of blackface), and tried to get the side of the story from the people who were responsible for Apu in the first place.

For that rather open approach, for that emphasis on discussion, do you think he should be painted as a bully or a whiner? Why would a person want to paint him as one of those?


Bully? No lmao. No bully is that sensitive. But for me the issue comes from the questions I was left with regarding how truthfully portrayed the degree of harm caused by Apu in the bigger picture was to warrant potentially destroying the Simpson's creators legacy over it. Maybe it needed to happen? Like, if the end result is that the majority of people of South Indian heritage were hurt by Apu, then that is just stone cold fact. That damage, regardless of your good intent, is the end result of voicing that character.

But that's not really evident in the argument being made by the film. It can be tricky due to the amount of subjective experiences you can have that lead up to being as bothered by the character as Hari and the members of the south asian community interviewed in the doc were. Maybe Hank was used to hearing nothing but praise from south asian Simpsons fans up until that point. Since no ethnicity is a monolith, there's going to be a varied reaction among people in that community regarding Apu.

There's a balance Hari seems to want to find between expressing his anger at the bullying, discrimination, and other forms of social bullshit caused in part by the Apu effect vs. trying to not seem biased or ethnocentric about it. For whatever reason, he feels that cartoon character is more to blame than ignorant Americans raised by idiots who can't tell a cartoon from real life.

At the end of the day, he's being truthful about his perspective, and that much is respectable, even brave, though I'd respect him more if he was more open to engaging in thoughtful dialogues centered around whether or not you can be understanding and accepting of his perspective while not being a complete dickmonster for not feeling as strongly about his politics as he does.

It's almost seems like he wants your takeaway to be that it's not enough for you to listen and be understanding of how he feels - you have to agree that everyone who might not feel 100% the same way is a complete scumbag who should be stripped of dignity and resigned to the dustbin of history in order for you to be supportive of him on this issue. That doesn't seems like a completely fair stance to take, but if it is, I'm interested in seeing him work it out with someone in public discourse to prove it.
 

MrBadger

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,552
So... why was Apu singled out in all of this and not any of Simpsons other stereotypes?

The Italian Chef, grounds keeper Willie, Cletus the inbred southener, if my memory of the Stereotypes Bowling team serves me correctly lol is it because hes brown so its the most obvious one? Yeah you dun fucked up.

Because the people who singled him out were Indians who were specifically talking about how the character affected them, both growing up and in their acting careers. This isn't hard.
 

Real Hero

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,329
So... why was Apu singled out in all of this and not any of Simpsons other stereotypes?

The Italian Chef, grounds keeper Willie, Cletus the inbred southener, if my memory of the Stereotypes Bowling team serves me correctly lol is it because hes brown so its the most obvious one? Yeah you dun fucked up.
Because Indian people highlighted how the character caused them to be racially targeted in school etc
 

Qikz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,490
Moe, Skinner, Chalmers, Wiggum, Lionel Hutz, etc.

There's tons of people who I find more hilarious than Apu.

It's weird, because with Apu he never seemed to be a comic relief character. He seemed to get more character development than anyone and always had the most "real" storylines. Yeah he was funny, but it felt he was actually an important part of the town, wiggum only really shows up to show his incompetence heh.

I understand why they're removing him, but I wish they could give him a send off.
 

uncelestial

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,060
San Francisco, CA, USA
Hank Azaria had said he'd be willing to hand the character over to another voice actor. So many other funny approaches they could've done here.

Apu: *starts coughing, violently*
Homer: You okay there?
Apu: *coughs up a chunk of expired ham*
Apu (voiced by new actor): Ahh, I thought that would never come out!
(Series continues as if nothing happened)
 

iliketopaint_93

Use of alt account
Member
Sep 3, 2018
597
It's weird, because with Apu he never seemed to be a comic relief character. He seemed to get more character development than anyone and always had the most "real" storylines. Yeah he was funny, but it felt he was actually an important part of the town, wiggum only really shows up to show his incompetence heh.

I understand why they're removing him, but I wish they could give him a send off.

Nah, he was often portrayed as comic relief and sometimes the joke was solely based on making fun of his accent and background. He had a lot of character development too, sure, but sometimes his being an indian gas station employee was the butt of the jokes as well.
 

oledome

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,907
Clearly they can't be arsed, which is generally how the show has been for a long time.

Apu: *starts coughing, violently*
Homer: You okay there?
Apu: *coughs up a chunk of expired ham*
Apu (voiced by new actor): Ahh, I thought that would never come out!
(Series continues as if nothing happened)

they should have got you in for the crowdsourcing efforts
 

Brewster123

Self-Requested Ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,456
Charlottesville, VA
We're struggling to find the right tone with a minority character, so the solution is to just completely remove the character from existence.

Wat?

How hard is to have Apu played or written by someone of Indian decent? King of the Hill did a pretty good job with their Asian characters. Minh and Connie was voiced by an Asian actor. While Kanh was voiced by a white guy, the Kahn character overall wasn't just a punching bag or conformed to low-level Asian stereo-types. Kahn was a complete character on the show, both strong and vulnerable, and the show addressed some issues Asian Americans face even though the show was centered around a bunch of Texan hillbillies. If King of the Hill was at least able to head in the right direction 15-20 years ago, then you'd think The Simpsons could figure how to get it right in 2018.

It's ironic that King of the Hill is looking more and more like the real progressive show as time passes by.
This is pretty close to my thoughts. I feel like they could've just worked to update him as a him character; they didn't need to completely remove him from the show.
 

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
50,042
It's almost seems like he wants your takeaway to be that it's not enough for you to listen and be understanding of how he feels - you have to agree that everyone who might not feel 100% the same way is a complete scumbag who should be stripped of dignity and resigned to the dustbin of history in order for you to be supportive of him on this issue. That doesn't seems like a completely fair stance to take, but if it is, I'm interested in seeing him work it out with someone in public discourse to prove it.

Can you show me exactly what he said that makes you feel this way? Because, to be frank here, I'm getting the sense that this entire conversation we've been having is weirdly accusative on your end. His issue with Hank Azaria. In the documentary, both Whoopi Goldberg and a staff member on The Simpsons who I don't remember didn't line up with him 100% - what did he do to strip them of their dignity as you've said?
 

Alavard

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
5,322
I'm slightly disappointed because I honestly think there's a better solution.

Have an episode where Apu reveals it's not his original voice - it's something he adopted to fit into stereotypes when he moved to the US, and the longer he did the voice, the more it became real. Have him realize what he did was wrong because it's not who he is, and reveal his 'true voice', which would be that of a new voice actor, someone of Indian descent. This allows them to acknowledge the problem, and mirror the reality of it being a decision that was made long ago and became harder to change as time went on, but that's it's still important to do it.
 

BibiCesar

Banned
Oct 1, 2018
45
But if they cast an Indian to voice him, should they hire an Italian to do Luigi? Or a Scottish to voice Willy? Etc etc...
 

99Luffy

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,344
Why would they get a brand new voice actor just for one character. All these suggestions are ridiculous. ''he wouldn't be racist if an Indian voiced him." Hes an offensive stereotype or he isn't, who voices him doesn't change that. The Asian guy in two broke girls isn't any less offensive just because he's an actual Asian actor.

Get rid of him. If you wanna have a better Indian character then make a new character.
 

Deleted member 1086

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,796
Boise Area, Idaho
Why would they get a brand new voice actor just for one character. All these suggestions are ridiculous. ''he wouldn't be racist if an Indian voiced him." Hes an offensive stereotype or he isn't, who voices him doesn't change that. The Asian guy in two broke girls isn't any less offensive just because he's an actual Asian actor.

Get rid of him. If you wanna have a better Indian character then make a new character.
who says an Indian actor would voice him in a stereotypical manner?
 

Moose the Fattest Cat

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Dec 15, 2017
1,439
Apu — created in a time when brown people were not on American TV

Hari — makes a documentary with other brown people about how The Simpsons popularity & lack of other brown people on TV + Apu impacted their lives & careers

The Simpsons — "ok so we will take Apu out back and kill him. Happy now?!"

Too many in this thread — "I think the real victim here is the Simpsons legacy."

I'm slightly disappointed because I honestly think there's a better solution.

Have an episode where Apu reveals it's not his original voice - it's something he adopted to fit into stereotypes when he moved to the US, and the longer he did the voice, the more it became real. Have him realize what he did was wrong because it's not who he is, and reveal his 'true voice', which would be that of a new voice actor, someone of Indian descent. This allows them to acknowledge the problem, and mirror the reality of it being a decision that was made long ago and became harder to change as time went on, but that's it's still important to do it.

This is a good solution.
 
Oct 26, 2017
19,760
What will really piss me off is if Matt and/or execs later come out and defend their actions here by blaming it on those offended by Apu, as if it's their fault he was removed.
 

iliketopaint_93

Use of alt account
Member
Sep 3, 2018
597
Can you show me exactly what he said that makes you feel this way? Because, to be frank here, I'm getting the sense that this entire conversation we've been having is weirdly accusative on your end. His issue with Hank Azaria. In the documentary, both Whoopi Goldberg and a staff member on The Simpsons who I don't remember didn't line up with him 100% - what did he do to strip them of their dignity as you've said?

I'm taking some of his tweets into consideration, not just the documentary. He definitely seems to think less of anyone who has difficulty relating to his anger towards Apu and the Simpsons. From what I've seen any response on his twitter feed that aren't ones of consolation, agreement or guilt are taken as an attack on him instead of just another perspective.

Obviously condescending, bullying, racist, etc remarks will result in that reaction (which are often entertainingly taken to task) but any comments that express curiosity of why he feels that way or any counterpoint that basically amounts to "I get where you're coming from, though I don't think it's as upsetting to me and here's why" seem to be treated similarly to the bullying comments.

Tbf I'm not on twitter often so maybe he has shown acceptance of a perspective from someone who isn't a jerk that disagrees. Not that he's obligated to, but it also seems reasonable that you can feel less bothered by Apu and The Simpsons without it being a tell of shitty character or whatever.
 
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