Will treatment of workers at Rockstar stop you from picking up Red Dead Redemption 2?

IronicSonic said:

Oh boy

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Do you support Yakuza ironically?

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/01/jap...-hours-in-the-world-its-trying-to-change.html

Japan has some of the longest working hours in the world.

Nearly one quarter of Japanese companies require employees to work more than 80 hours of overtime a month, according to a 2016 government survey. Those extra hours are often unpaid.

And the Japanese aren't taking enough time off, either. A study by Expedia found that Japanese workers on average didn't use 10 of their paid vacation days, and 63 percent of Japanese respondents felt guilty for taking paid leave.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Shatty McKracken said:

Considering that the vast majority of all goods and services that I buy are likely made by someone in a horrible situation, in horrible working conditions, in a country with horrible labor laws and probably human rights violations, I have no problem purchasing RDR2.

I'm not really interested in debating my choices either.

You can either choose to have cognitive dissonance about this or you can begin to micro manage every single waking minute of your life and gather data and hard research on just where and how every thing you purchase came into existence. That's not a rabbit hole I have time to go jumping into.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

My sentiments exactly. I thank my lucky stars for the sheer dumb luck I was born in North America instead of a developing country, but that's about it. If it's legally available and I can afford it, Ima buy it and enjoy it.

Considering that the vast majority of all goods and services that I buy are likely made by someone in a horrible situation, in horrible working conditions, in a country with horrible labor laws and probably human rights violations, I have no problem purchasing RDR2.

I'm not really interested in debating my choices either.

You can either choose to have cognitive dissonance about this or you can begin to micro manage every single waking minute of your life and gather data and hard research on just where and how every thing you purchase came into existence. That's not a rabbit hole I have time to go jumping into.

Back to RDR2.

commish said:

So, someone would not buy the game, which means that the hard work was done in vain and that, with low sales (obviously not the case here), folks would be laid off?

Era folks sure do live in a righteous bubble.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

What do you propose people do then?

I'm genuinely curious as I was never going to get the game in the first place.

PortisheadBiscuit said:

I dont plan on playing RDR2 but the idea of a boycott makes no sense. We'd have to boycott a lot more than a video game...

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

What about that makes no sense?
We certainly should go after a lot more than just Rockstar. Rockstar is as good a start as any.

I don't think boycotting is the way to go here - but it certainly makes sense if people want to do it. Lots of respect to those who boycott. Just dont stop with that, we need a lot more for change to happen (aka. Vote, unionize and complain).

One issue I have with boycotts is that it implicitly switches the blame from the producer to the buyer. "Vote with your wallet" is the wet dream of capitalists, who can then rid themselves of all guilt and just blame the customers for everything.
Guilt-tripping individual customers is not the way to solve serious issues in the market. Laws, unions and consumer interest groups are.
(but again, if people want to boycott, that is great too. It just shouldn't be our excuse for not looking for better options)

I would like to say this is my reason for holding off my purchase, but in honesty I had other reasons for holding off.

• My backlog has hit a critical point. Other than Super Smash Bros. Ultimate, I'm holding off on all new upcoming titles until I get the most out of what I already have.
• Split user base. Most my friends play on PS4, but some play on XB1. Add in the superior presentation available on XB1X, you got me completely split.
• Sales. Yes, it took forever for GTAV to be discounted, but I can wait.
• I realize the situation is different, but I can't wash the fact that GTAV was ported so many times. In other words, I'm not worried for the player base of this game to "die off", and there's less agency for me to try it out. At the very least, you can bet your socks a PC version is coming.

It doesn't surprise me about the circumstances behind Rockstar. I'm not sure what the solution is. It might not have been the original reason I passed on picking up RDR2 on launch, but it helps cement my decision.

Not personally. Whilst it's shitty and I really hope it can change I can't imagine their workers would want people not buying the game.

That said I fully support anybody who decides not to buy it and I sincerely hope that their decision to do so will help change the culture at Rockstar, even if only in a small way.

jschreier said:

For what it's worth, if you're going to boycott games made under intense crunch, you'll have to boycott a hefty list of games that includes the new God of War, Uncharted 4, The Witcher 3, and even indies like Shovel Knight. I hear there's been some serious crunch on Anthem, too, and Treyarch is well-known for crunching so I'm sure Black Ops 4 was pretty bad.

Rockstar has serious cultural issues and I hope all of these conversations can push for change, but this is a systemic issue in the video game industry that can really only be fixed when workers organize.

Please do feel free to boycott any game you're uncomfortable playing. But I think making noise about these things (how about a ResetEra campaign for devs to unionize?) is far more effective.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

For me its about the horror stories, some of them are time related and crunch is a big part of it, but also the mismanagement and treating your employees like crap besides the crunch. Granted, even while Im at EA and I really like our culture, I have no idea what my colleagues at BioWare may or may not be going through. As an EA employee though I do think the company cares about maintaining, elevating and taking care of talent ... which is more that I can say for other studios.

For me its not meant as a boycott, more like, "ew no this is gross and I dont want to give you money right now"

Hubologist said:

Do you support Yakuza ironically?

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/01/jap...-hours-in-the-world-its-trying-to-change.html

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

I hope japanese workers have better working conditions in the future. I don't think extreme sacrifice is an obligatory condition to make a great game. It's not a necessity

That's a good question OP.

I bought the game today. But of course I do not support that crunch culture.

I think that if we raise our voice, things will change, even without attacking the bottom line.

Still, I respect the people who choose to boycott the game.

Pre-ordered a while back on PSN. Sony is notorious about refunding.

Temperance said:

Numerous posts have been stating how EA is so good in avoiding crunch, all those post reiterating that statement appear to be simply bolstering a false narrative. That's a shame to hear.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

EA employs thousands of people at dozens of offices. Different people are going to have different experiences there. In GENERAL, people I've talked to who work for EA say they're treated very well -- including people at BioWare -- but of course that doesn't mean that some studios aren't going to be overworked, especially in an industry where crunch is the norm and not the exception.

commish said:

So, someone would not buy the game, which means that the hard work was done in vain and that, with low sales (obviously not the case here), folks would be laid off?

Era folks sure do live in a righteous bubble.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

It is not only a bad thing if their hard work was in vain.
It would obviously suck for those who lose a bonus or their job, but it would be an example for the future, that overworking might not pay off, and that unionizing is a good idea.
Nobody can give employees back the hours spent making this game. The best we can hope for is it being a start for positive changes. It is about much more than merely the employees at Rockstar.

I don't think a boycott in the gaming industry (or many industries) is particularly productive, and this isn't a line I won't cross (like there are certain things I won't buy/spend money on for moral reasons, but it usually has to be pretty fucking bad). I won't like though, it has sort of killed a lot of enthusiasm I had for the game. I'm just not as excited about the game.

Nope. Every jobs has a crunch and every job has shitty parts to it doesn't matter the industry. Hell my mom is a CPA and before she quit i would barely see her for the whole month of April. It's part of being a working professional and dumping your heart into your business to make or do something you're really proud of.

It isn't a game that I'm super interested in, but I was gonna buy it.

After reading these recent articles I decided against it. It's more of a personal fuck you to the higher ups than a form of support for the victims, since apparently they would still want you to buy the game.

Though now I've been feeling bad as I've been playing a ton of Japanese fighting games, and apparently the working ethics in Japan are just as bad :\

I will buy the game because they worked their asses off for this. Boycotting from purchasing this game will be a huge bad stab to them after all the crunch they had for years.

One purchase from me may not help much but I hope to know that it helps put food on their table somehow.

With the gaming developer community also voicing out their concerns of crunch to the public, I do hope Rockstar and other game companies can improve their ways. I doubt it'll be a huge change right this moment, but i do hope this past week of the concern of crunch can help nudge them in a better direction to keep their working environment more safe in the years to come.

The louder the voices, the more these companies, Rockstar included, will change their ways.

IronicSonic said:

I hope japanese workers have better working conditions in the future. I don't think extreme sacrifice is an obligatory condition to make a great game. It's not a necessity

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

I'd argue you need a reality check. I promise you, the majority of great games (and great things, in general) are the product of many hours and countless late nights, at all levels from your Kickstarter success stories to AAA games such as this.

Nope. And if anyone does I hope also do not own anything made in China.

Kthulhu said:

Millions of copies is still millions. Look at how EA reacted with Battlefront 2 not meeting expectations.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

from what I recall, EA disabled the lootboxes *before* the game even released?

PrimeBeef said:

Like I said before, it's not my job to make sure they get paid properly. It's just like tipping. Restaurants expect patrons to pay the wait staff. Rockstar should have paid and work their employees fairly.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Really sticking it to the Man.

This is fucking gross, there's no defense for this attitude.

I wanted to not get it, but then it got a 97 and now I had to buy it so that I can later on scream to noone in particular why the eff it got a 97, because apparently after GTA4, RDR and GTAV I still haven't learned a damn thing.

I wish reviewers had more of a backbone than I did.

Because honestly if it got an 80 instead of a 97, this crunch culture would be killed instantly. As it is, the execs have all the ammo they need to say that crunch is necessary to get the best games ever. And if you don't want to crunch, you obviously don't have the passion to create the best games ever. I'd hazard a guess sales are actually less immediately important because sales are elusive and due to a myriad of factors. Review scores are a direct effect of work.

Shadout said:

What about that makes no sense?
We certainly should go after a lot more than just Rockstar. Rockstar is as good a start as any.

I don't think boycotting is the way to go here - but it certainly makes sense if people want to do it. Lots of respect to those who boycott. Just dont stop with that, we need a lot more for change to happen (aka. Vote, unionize and complain).

One issue I have with boycotts is that it implicitly switches the blame from the producer to the buyer. "Vote with your wallet" is the wet dream of capitalists, who can then rid themselves of all guilt and just blame the customers for everything.
Guilt-tripping individual customers is not the way to solve serious issues in the market. Laws, unions and consumer interest groups are.
(but again, if people want to boycott, that is great too. It just shouldn't be our excuse for not looking for better options)

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

I'll preface this by saying I think obscene amounts of crunch are unacceptable. Every organization has forms of crunch, but they typically last weeks and not months. That's more just how projects work for better or for worse. But at other organizations and industries, crunching means 55-60 hours a week for two or three weeks, not 80 hours a week for 10 months.

With all of that said, a boycott, if it were to take off, would only have repercussions on the folks who really depend on those sales bonuses and that's not the Housers. You're effectively hurting the income of people who spent all those hours making the game. That's where I stand on the boycott.

I'm with Kirk and Jason (I'm sorry if I put words in your mouth but I thought I remembered you saying you agree with Kirk) that shaming these organizations is the way to go. Crunch as a badge of honor is horrendous. I've worked with people who believe more hours means more productivity and it's total bullshit. We need to keep shaming this sort of behavior to make it so it's no longer socially acceptable. I'm not naive and I don't believe you can end crunch. There are going to be instances where it's necessary such as staffing shortages or poor planning (something I'm going through at this very moment), but these cannot last for more than a few weeks. I have to imagine sustained crunch has a terrible impact on the mental health of individuals.

I've worked on a lot of games and I absolutely don't think permacrunch is a necessary factor in a good game. If anything, it hurts the product more than it helps, because of fatigue.

And yes, it is an industry wide issue, but over the years some developers have gotten better and some have not. Rockstar definitely has not, despite over a decade of saying they understood the problem and would fix it.

I really don't get the vitriol that comes out when somebody says they won't buy or watch something as a way of following through on their values. You realize someone can do that--and even tell others they are doing that--without trying to shame everyone else, right? And they can do it knowing full well it's not going to solve the problem, because they see it as a moral/ethical decision where the question of how effective it would be simply doesn't enter into the equation?

Me not buying Red Dead Redemption 2 will not affect the bonuses of anyone involved in making the game. It is effectively inconsequential to the rest of the world. If I can't follow through on my values when the outcome is essentially meaningless, how am I supposed to follow through on them when it actually matters?

XandBosch said:

That's not at all the same thing,

This isn't a fundamental part of the game that affects how it's played or how it's enjoyed, nor is this something getting picked up by mainstream news press due to it possibly being against gambling laws in certain countries (like Battlefront).

This is gaming culture news, and it doesn't affect the game at all.

It would not be "millions of copies" if people here decided to boycott (which many aren't anyway due to the dev's response of wanting people to buy it still).

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

We are talking about a hypocritical situation where a couple of millions of people decided not to buy the game. Which I believe is what it would take for Rockstar to change it's ways.

I know that it won't happen. Gaming culture is defined by marketing and being a corporate fanboy, as some of the posts in this thread have shown. I would be surprised if a Battlefront 2 situation ever happened with a company that treated it's workers poorly in a way that didn't noticably affect gameplay.

I do plan to buy it, however this is mostly to support the developer and the workers. The problem is this crunch-based culture has been commonplace in gaming forever, and unfortunately, most of the industry has to be used to it by now. Hell, I'm a huge Super Smash Bros. fan, and I oftentimes feel guilty because of it because game director Masahiro Sakurai has said he often goes weeks without sleeping or eating and puts everything he has into these games just so people like them. But I'll still buy the games because I love Smash, I love Sakurai, and I love Nintendo, and I'm not going to keep the money as part of some silly "vote with your wallet" stance. The way I see it, the team at Rockstar did the same, putting their hearts and souls into RDR2 to make it the best game it can possibly be. I'm not saying it's the right thing to do, but I would feel even more guilty to withhold the game from them due to their business practices, rather than buy the game to support one of the world's best developers.

Why would i do that? this kind of work methods bring me such a masterpiece like RDR2.

Picked up the game over lunch and didn't think twice. I feel bad for anyone who was pushed to work crazy hours honestly. I just wondered if I'd be making their hours count for nothing if I didn't buy it(when I was already planning to). So, I bought it.

Most large companies treat there staff like crap these days. I bet the vast majority of people on Era use Amazon, McDonalds etc. I can guarantee people making consoles and components are equally miss treated.on crappy wages.

Parenegade said:

Lol ok buddy. If you don't care in the future but you care now than what does that say about you?

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

That I'm human and my behavior changes depending on the situation? But I didn't talk about stopping caring. I said making different decisions in different settings. Say I buy 5 games this year that were tainted by crunch, and I don't buy 5 others because of crunch. That doesn't mean I'm a saint or a devil. It means I sometimes acted in accordance with my values and other times didn't. That's how everyone lives all the time. You can criticize it or call it hypocrisy, but I wouldn't. I'm not telling people they are bad if they buy a crunchy game. I think actual hypocrisy here would be boycotting a game for crunch and then running a game studio with crunchy practices. I'm not doing that.

Let's just say I'm not going the add to their day one sales.

Will wait a month.

BrendanSinclair said:

Me not buying Red Dead Redemption 2 will not affect the bonuses of anyone involved in making the game. It is effectively inconsequential to the rest of the world. If I can't follow through on my values when the outcome is essentially meaningless, how am I supposed to follow through on them when it actually matters?

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

That's false. It's even in the OP. You should know this.

Hubologist said:

I'd argue you need a reality check. I promise you, the majority of great games (and great things, in general) are the product of many hours and countless late nights, at all levels from your Kickstarter success stories to AAA games such as this.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

It is different to sacrifice yourself to accomplish certain goals than to force others to work beyond what they want or need through intimidation. I do know out there are horrific stories about exploitation but I don't think is the only way the things can be.

Boycotting is an option for when a company has expressed (or impressed) an unwillingness to change. The Kotaku story gives the impression that Rockstar has improved since what was apparently an even rougher time with the first RDR, and seems to want to continue improving. Also, the Rockstar employees Kotaku spoke to are against the idea of a boycott. So this seems like a situation where it makes more sense to continue applying pressure, spreading awareness and talking about it.

Kudos to Jason Schreier and the people at Kotaku for helping give workers a voice and push things forward.

RevengeTaken said:

Why would i do that? this kind of work methods bring me such a masterpiece like RDR2.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Fishook said:

Most large companies treat there staff like crap these days. I bet the vast majority of people on Era use Amazon, McDonalds etc. I can guarantee people making consoles and components are equally miss treated.on crappy wages.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

:'(
If we were ever in doubt that change will be hard.

IronicSonic said:

It is different to sacrifice yourself to accomplish certain goals than to force others to work beyond what they want or need through intimidation. I do know out there are horrific stories about exploitation but I don't think is the only way the things can be.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Yeah, we cant really limit what people do to themselves as self-employed, even if we wanted to. What we can try to limit, is what employers can do to employees.

Nah - the only thing keeping me from buying it now is that I only have the crappy base PS4 and Xbox One so I'd sooner wait for a PC release.

Heynongman! said:

Really sticking it to the Man.

This is fucking gross, there's no defense for this attitude.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Treat your employees right. It's literally acting like its charity. Please buy it so our employees get bonuses to make up for shit working conditions. Fuck Rockstar.

I wasn't going to get it, but the exceptional reviews made me change my mind. Then I read Eurogamers article and decided to skip it after all.

I'm unsure how I'd proceeded if it was a game I'd really hyped myself up for, such as a new Souls or an Astro Bot sequel, hopefully it won't come down to that in the future. But this kind of tasteless exploitation of people should not be rewarded with blind frenzied consumerism.

I do plan to buy it only in the hopes that some of the money will get distributed through bonuses to employees who were treated poorly.

That said, if I knew it all went to Rockstar and none to employees, which it's not, I would never buy a game from them again.

No PC, no buy. My busted ass OG PS4 isn't going to do the dev's work justice. Neither will a Pro/X, tbh.

Don't support their treatment of workers either unless they plan to actually give them comp time for their crunches.

I can wait a wihile.

I work in IT. Crunch is the norm and not the exception. But there are types of crunch. Theres the small pre-release crunch that can last 2 months (3 tops), but will be well compensated with overtime pay and days off after release, and then there's the almost perpetual 3+ months crunch for no extra pay, no days off after months of giving your soul to that work and, even worse, getting laid off because people didn't buy the game you poured your life at due to poor management or to the corporate mandate of sticking microtransactions in it (Hello Telltale Games! Hi EA!).

Rockstar is one of the very few companies that can afford paying full overtime to all of its employees and releasing "when it is ready" instead of when their investors tell them to. The fact that they do not do that makes me not want to buy this game right now.

In 3 years when there's a PC version I might reconsider.

I wasn't planning on buying it at launch or even at full price, but now I don't think I'll buy it at all.

Who the hell pre ordered it but doesn't plan to play it?

That's some shit!

"Thank you for making this game! Here's my money! No, I'm not playing it. I just wanted to look at it."


I wish I had that kind of disposable income.

I wasn't planning on getting the game anyway but there's no way I'm paying a single penny for it after reading that story of the guy who had just become a father being given a mountain of extra work purely to make sure he spent extra time in the office.

Gridlock said:

Who the hell pre ordered it but doesn't plan to play it?

That's some shit!

"Thank you for making this game! Here's my money! No, I'm not playing it. I just wanted to look at it."


I wish I had that kind of disposable income.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

You can get refunds on Xbox and on PSN (Europe, maybe Australia too) up to two weeks after release if you haven't downloaded it.

I was already most likely not going to get it because it's mostly not my kind of game, but this helped prevent me from succumbing to the hype.

Zvonimir Boban said:

I wasn't planning on getting the game anyway but there's no way I'm paying a single penny for it after reading that story of the guy who had just become a father being given a mountain of extra work purely to make sure he spent extra time in the office.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

OK, however remember that was a 10 year old story from GTA4 at Rockstar North, so nothing to do with RDR2 at Rockstar San Diego. It's also an unverified anecdote, with the teller not indicating he knew the tale first hand, and the journalist not following up with the father to verify the tale.

While I have been quite vocal about my disgust at the crunch culture, I do still plan to buy the game (not right away because I have no money, but around Christmas). Those people have worked damned hard, and I wouldn't want them to miss out on any kind of bonus or anything. And also, I really, really want to play the game.

Sheepinator said:

You can get refunds on Xbox and on PSN (Europe, maybe Australia too) up to two weeks after release if you haven't downloaded it.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Yeah I forgot that in the US atleast you can't cancel or change a pre order on the PSN at all. Well, you can do it one time but after you can't. I know because I tried. So I'm thinking those 3 people who voted that in the poll are in the US.