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Will treatment of workers at Rockstar stop you from picking up Red Dead Redemption 2?
- Thread starter Nabbit
- Start date
It's definitely influenced my decision not to pick it up, but even I have to admit that is hypocritical of me. I'm sure my phone, or TV, or something else was also made in a less than ideal situation for workers. But, we can't fight everything, we pick and choose our battles.
There's multiple issues that have kept me from buying it. The crunch, comments by Dan Houser, the companies shift in focus due to GTAO, and generally having had my fill of RDR with the last one. I don't really care how detailed the horse testicles are, or how well it rips off what movies, I'm just kind of done with Rockstar games in general.
For what it's worth, if you're going to boycott games made under intense crunch, you'll have to boycott a hefty list of games that includes the new God of War, Uncharted 4, The Witcher 3, and even indies like Shovel Knight. I hear there's been some serious crunch on Anthem, too, and Treyarch is well-known for crunching so I'm sure Black Ops 4 was pretty bad.
Rockstar has serious cultural issues and I hope all of these conversations can push for change, but this is a systemic issue in the video game industry that can really only be fixed when workers organize.
Please do feel free to boycott any game you're uncomfortable playing. But I think making noise about these things (how about a ResetEra campaign for devs to unionize?) is far more effective.
Rockstar has serious cultural issues and I hope all of these conversations can push for change, but this is a systemic issue in the video game industry that can really only be fixed when workers organize.
Please do feel free to boycott any game you're uncomfortable playing. But I think making noise about these things (how about a ResetEra campaign for devs to unionize?) is far more effective.
I don't understand these types of posts. They are not clever. Everyone is well aware that there are issues with working conditions across many industries. People do the best they can. Not buying a complete luxury item like a video game is reasonable attempt at making a positive change. It doesn't have to be all or nothing. Particularly for people on a gaming forum who are completely plugged into the industry where they might not be elsewhere.
Already bought the game and these quotes pretty much sum what I think.
Ah ok, my mistake. Should have paid more attention.
I don't have the game yet but I do plan on playing it. Still debating whether to get it used or not because I want Rockstar to change but at the sametime want the developers to get their bonus.
I'm not a big fan of this idea that's pervasive amongst nerd ideology that you can defeat capitalism by engaging in it. By choosing to send a message through the means of financial figures we're still enforcing the viewpoint that it's okay to focus on statistics rather than people.
The arguments in the OP are definitely valid. On top of them, not only would a boycott of the game have a minuscule effect, it would still be misguided even if everyone in America decided to jump on board.
The answer to Rockstar's labor problem isn't to enforce the idea that they should keep their mind on the money, it's to provide the workers with the resources they need to unionize.
The arguments in the OP are definitely valid. On top of them, not only would a boycott of the game have a minuscule effect, it would still be misguided even if everyone in America decided to jump on board.
The answer to Rockstar's labor problem isn't to enforce the idea that they should keep their mind on the money, it's to provide the workers with the resources they need to unionize.
Well, let's assume so many people do not buy RDR2 that it underperforms. The change then would be devs getting fired.
I think exposing it and talking / writing about it is a good way to support the devs. In a long run, publishers may want to avoid bad press. Bad press for EA after Battlefront 2 changed how lootboxes work in the games now.
No.
It's not that I think they are treated well (though without knowing how they are compensated it's hard to judge). However in the products I consume the treatment of first world professionals who can relatively easily find alternative employment is not a major concern that I have.
It's not that I think they are treated well (though without knowing how they are compensated it's hard to judge). However in the products I consume the treatment of first world professionals who can relatively easily find alternative employment is not a major concern that I have.
I do wish there was some sort of aggregate site that kind of showed reports on how employees feel about their work loads on specific games. Your post right they' was the closest I've seen to anything like that, and I appreciate having additional knowledge when making my purchasing decisions.
It's so secretive, and, without them having a union, it will most likely remain so without more investigative reporting.
Bought it. No second thoughts on it either, because I understand what crunch times mean for industries that have flagship product launches every few years & their importance to revenue.
Here's the thing like, putting aside that I've already said another thread that I don't see video games as art and that it was mistake to move the criticism in that direction (As opposed to remaining an enthusiast, product-focused evaluation) I get that for many people who enjoy games and make them that's a done deal. Well, people get weird about art. We acknowledge and admit there is a cost, a sacrifice even, to creating it, and we're uncomfortable with seeing that blend with commercial interests.
For example: One artist works himself night and day to create incredible works. He forgets his friends, ignores his family, and pours his being into these whatever it is. Ah, but these works have a timeless value to humanity we say, so it was worth the sacrifice. He also owns the things he makes, so he can do what he pleases with them.
One artist doing it is a maybe sad but noble sacrifice (It depends on how good the art was, I suppose), but a team of artists doing the same for someone else to create things they ultimately do not own, well, that doesn't sit as well with us.
I'm not trying to justify Rockstar's practices, but I absolutely see a dichotomy here. It's like, we only see it as okay to work like this unless you are going solo and the thing you make belongs to you. Change any one of those factors and it becomes exploitative.
For example: One artist works himself night and day to create incredible works. He forgets his friends, ignores his family, and pours his being into these whatever it is. Ah, but these works have a timeless value to humanity we say, so it was worth the sacrifice. He also owns the things he makes, so he can do what he pleases with them.
One artist doing it is a maybe sad but noble sacrifice (It depends on how good the art was, I suppose), but a team of artists doing the same for someone else to create things they ultimately do not own, well, that doesn't sit as well with us.
I'm not trying to justify Rockstar's practices, but I absolutely see a dichotomy here. It's like, we only see it as okay to work like this unless you are going solo and the thing you make belongs to you. Change any one of those factors and it becomes exploitative.
As someone that knows 1 employee at Rockstar... He said these accusations are absurd and he's very happy there.
Except, if you've been following the stories and reading responses from other developers, crunch doesn't make a better game; it's just a way for companies to steal from employees. When you're salaried you don't get overtime, so it's free work for the employer. Ever notice how there is wave of layoffs after a game is completed? That's often to save from having to pay out promised comp time.
Yes. Even though I don't like RDR and GTA V, I actually like what I've heard from the reviews. I would have been swept away by the hype otherwise.
At the end of the day, I'm not a big enough fan of Rockstar to still buy the game.
At the end of the day, I'm not a big enough fan of Rockstar to still buy the game.
OP
OP
I will add this to the OP also. Thanks, Jason, for your continued immense efforts in games journalism.
No.
I bought it. I'll play it, and (like I do with every game/movie/tv series) I'll watch the credits. I won't skip 'em. Some of them worked hard, really hard on this game. They deserve that.
I just think it's a bit naive to think that meeting would go:
"You guys had lower numbers...maybe work your employees less hard and spend more time making the next game"
rather than
"you guys had lower numbers..make a better game next time and put it out soon because we need to make up that difference"
Given this I'll get the game. I was actually on the fence about it.
Hey Jason, I'm curious about the whole unionization thing. What are the big reasons it hasn't happened yet? Too many indifferent employees? Too much fear that they'd all be fired as soon as the idea is even brought up?
Honestly, if I was offered a job there tomorrow I would take it. Have a few friends at Rockstar North and they love it. Obviously Lincoln sounds like a different story.
I was playing at midnight last night.
Just want to be clear crunch sucks, better project management helps a lot, in my time in the industry things are improving but things can always be better.
Uhh not to say I am not happy at my current job if anyone I know there is reading this :P
I was playing at midnight last night.
Just want to be clear crunch sucks, better project management helps a lot, in my time in the industry things are improving but things can always be better.
Uhh not to say I am not happy at my current job if anyone I know there is reading this :P
I'm personally of the mind that boycotts do very little for video games. While I view abuse of workers as a big issue, I think that it's more valuable to discuss the topic than to just not buy the game entirely. Folks put a ton of time into it, and we also know they have bonuses tied to how well it sells. A boycott seems like it would only hurt rather than help.
I'm all for unions, but unionizing game development (or any development for that matter) is going to be a tough sell. I'm not convinced that the majority of people in the industry want unions and development itself is not a location specific and would just shift over time to somewhere that is not unionized. It's not like there aren't places offering tax breaks for just such moves.
I mean there's a lot of shit in this world that I don't agree with. If anything I feel more guilty about buying an iPhone or throwing food away. I don't mind people voting with their money, but I do not believe that makes a difference. Only laws could make a difference.
As long as people can be easily replaced and no union or some form of protection is there for workers, it's a sad reality for a grand majority of devs. At least in the US. The main reason a dev wouldn't crunch/work OT as much is if they management made it their mission to create the culture to avoid thism
Nope, and it won't change what I do at the end of every game I complete, which is skipping the credits.
There are a lot of logistical hurdles but I think the biggest reason is lack of inertia, which is starting to change this year.
Crunch is a thing almost everywhere, and while I don't agree that it should be the norm, I do think that continuing to discuss it and put attention on it is a good thing. Makes you wonder if companies had a "no overtime" policy, had bigger teams, etc., and could produce the same quality product in the same amount of time? Genuinely curious if any big developers work this way and still manage a competitive release cadence with similar scope and quality.
There's no reason to think the only possible change if the game underperforms would be devs getting fired.
Bad press for EA after Battlefront 2 provided some pressure, but people not buying the game due to the lootbox issue spoke very loudly. It doesn't have to be one or the other. Do we have info to suggest that EA devs were fired, either because they made less revenue than expected thanks to not having lootboxes, or because the game sold less than expected due to the lootbox controversy?
At least someone can come out and say this.
I can acknowledge the issue. I can make others aware of why this is a big deal which I've done, but outside of that, I don't have the energy to criticize this further without being disingenuous.
I'm not playing the game simply because I don't have the cowboy fantasy others do and aspects of this game sound incredibly monotonous. And all the "I like that it's slow, I don't understand what other people are complaining about" talk is not changing my mind.
I don't consume products to support the dev, I buy them because I want them.
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Even if the sales doesn't reflect the backlash of this, I hope this time the dirt stays on Rockstar for a long ass time.
Similar to how the dirt of BF2 stayed on EA.
Similar to how the dirt of BF2 stayed on EA.
No, It will not. A boycott on a video game this big will do nothing. On top of that I bet most devs would still want people to play the game they made. Change will come through discussion of it and being outspoken against the way they treat their employees, not by ignoring the game.
Thanks for the response, and that's good to know (that it's changing). Based on what I know if the industry (primarily from reading articles like yours) this really is something that needs to happen.
Already bought the game.
Doesn't bother me, I often work 14-16 hour shifts, 60-70 hours a week, and I'm constantly on my feet, running around, wrestling with aggressive people, ping CPR, making split second decisions. I've had guns and knifes pulled on me on more than one occasion, and not a night goes by where I don't witness someone die, and witness the reactions of their loved ones.
Not to sound elitist, if that's even the right word, but despite number of hours worked and undoubtedly high stress for deadlines and whatnot, in comparison to a great majority of this planets working individuals, rockstar employees are not in some deep dark place.
Doesn't bother me, I often work 14-16 hour shifts, 60-70 hours a week, and I'm constantly on my feet, running around, wrestling with aggressive people, ping CPR, making split second decisions. I've had guns and knifes pulled on me on more than one occasion, and not a night goes by where I don't witness someone die, and witness the reactions of their loved ones.
Not to sound elitist, if that's even the right word, but despite number of hours worked and undoubtedly high stress for deadlines and whatnot, in comparison to a great majority of this planets working individuals, rockstar employees are not in some deep dark place.
"Uncle who works at Nintendo" has spoken. Close the thread, we're done here.
damn man you really cracked the case on this one, good job