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Eurogamer: The human cost of Red Dead Redemption 2
- Thread starter antonz
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I think the only way this can be solved is if they loosen up the marketing and financial importance of those big AAA games. That way their crunch to meat a deadline can stop.
I thought GAAS was supposed to help with that but it doesn't seem that it's the case at Rockstar.
Maybe so. But we do know about rockstar, this isn't new. It has a history of doing this.
Maybe ND does but this is a story about Rockstar not ND or EA or Ubisoft.
Means nothing. These people signed waivers to give up their rights on working time legislation, which is legal. No limits on overtime when doing this.
Sadly, this is to be expected from a modern day open world AAA title trying to push the envelope on all fronts with insane attention to detail.
R* has set an extremely high standard for themselves. They should hire more people, but managing a huge multi-team project makes managing quality a tough job.
A reasonable solution would be to take it down a peg and go for a smaller scope, but fans wouldn't like that would they? And the metascore wouldn't be sitting at 97 in that case either.
Only thing left now is to unionize. I don't see any other way.
R* has set an extremely high standard for themselves. They should hire more people, but managing a huge multi-team project makes managing quality a tough job.
A reasonable solution would be to take it down a peg and go for a smaller scope, but fans wouldn't like that would they? And the metascore wouldn't be sitting at 97 in that case either.
Only thing left now is to unionize. I don't see any other way.
We need unions and government regulation. Boycotts hardly ever work because you gotta get enough people to care enough to sacrifice something they want. And usually while people get upset at stories like these you aren't going to get enough people willing to sacrifice to make a dent.
Their games seem terribly mismanaged, so I don't think their issue is one solved by having more developers. Like Max Payne 3 was scheduled for release ~2.5 years after its initial release date. According to one (anonymous) source at the time Max Payne 3 went through three rewrites, with one rewrite taking place after that initial release date. So I think there's more to it than them just a need for a huge amount of 'man-hours' to make their games.
It definitely sounds a problem at R* and I'm all for voluntary OT but I draw the line at conscripted OT which after the reading this article it sounds like it is.
Forced OT is BS if R* are having to spend months and months crunching and forced OT then they need to increase staffing levels, they make enough money employ more staff, pay them FFS!
Forced OT is BS if R* are having to spend months and months crunching and forced OT then they need to increase staffing levels, they make enough money employ more staff, pay them FFS!
Im installing RDR2 as I type this and are starting to feel conflicted
People are really delusional about job mobility lol
What if the next job opening is in another state or country?
People always say this, but i think thats not the case. AC odyssey and Battlefield developers say they have relatively low to no crunch. Ecspecially stuff like QA, which seems to be the departement that has to crunch the most, seems to me like something that shouldn't be that hard to manage, if you hire more people.
I don't think is easy. Your family, friends. But accept this kind of extra time is crazy.
That GTA 4 quote is just genuinely sad. I really feel for the guy. Hope he's in a much better situation now.
What are the main reasons preventing devs from unionizing? Because I can't imagine they wouldn't want to after witnessing that happening to a colleague.
What are the main reasons preventing devs from unionizing? Because I can't imagine they wouldn't want to after witnessing that happening to a colleague.
I'd love to read more on the subject, if you'd be kind enough to point me in the right direction.
Fucking exactly. Some people have families and dependents, some people might not be able to find work in their field in the same city or even country.
People with McJobs always act like its easy to transplant yourself into another job in an industry. What if these people signed non-compete clauses as well? They're effectively barred from working elsewhere for years.
When the video game unions start forming resetera is gonna do a 180 when they start raising game prices and making "unreasonable" demands
A quick look at these games tell me RDR2 required much, much more regular and creative work.
Of course R* shouldn't be lazy and should hire more people to accomodate the increased demands of game development today. But if they aren't doing it due to how much comfortable they are with their current setup, they'll have to be forced to.
Rockstar Lincoln sounds like hell. The fact that they waive their right to UK work laws is insane. What's the point of having them if companies can still exploit their workers? How the hell is that legal?
I think if we got rid of the flat price point of games we'd see less of this shit happening to just bloat up a game to knock off every checkbox imaginable. I'd rather deal with a $100 pricepoint instead of knowing I'm getting a product from a sweatshop
game developers need a union. The mere existence of crunch all results from piss poor project management and pressure from the top. there needs to be some balancing force.
I say this with all seriousness.
It would not surprise me if someone suffered a break and engaged in random workplace violence. I hope that things do not have to come to that in order for change to occur.
Holy shit, this is completely unacceptable. No wonder that game turned out to be completely devoid of joy, how can you be passionate about something that is ruining your life?
Hopefully this talk of crunch and abuse of power keeps going as long as it's needed for something to change. Devs should unionize asap.
User Warned: Drive-by whataboutism
If we gonna discuss that we need to apply that for everything. What is the human cost from iPhone productions? New gpus. New consoles. People in China are working 15-16 hours everyday to make the electronics we buy every year.
I feel like shit that I still bought the game regardless of this situation. I can't believe that a Metacritic score was more important to me that all those lives affected by Rockstar policy.
What's going on inside those studios is against everything I believe. Also, I've been in a work environment where (underpaid) crunch was the norm and for years I could not have a normal life. Fuck R*.
What's going on inside those studios is against everything I believe. Also, I've been in a work environment where (underpaid) crunch was the norm and for years I could not have a normal life. Fuck R*.
EDIT: Funny thing, I'm not even liking the game that much (for now). First three hours are slow as fuck. But maybe I'm biased by all the crunch talking, and it would be a good thing.
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I used to work in a place like this. I'm a teacher and I was under constant pressure to meet deadlines and whatnot. The argument of my superiors was "give 200% extra for the kids".
We had to stay until late sometimes discussing worthless stuff. The principal really wanted to make the school shine in the district. He would go to great lengths to organize cultural festivals and science fairs just to gather local attention, but we were the ones who had to do all the job. Oh right, these extra tasks were "optional" by the way.
It wasn't long until my left eye started to twitch and my head started to constantly ache. My bad mood was not fair for the kids I was teaching, so I just said "fuck it" and simply decided not to be part of whatever the school wanted to organize. As soon as I was done with my last class of the day, I was also leaving school way before my shift ended. Hell, sometimes I would leave 3 hours before my shift came to an end.
After a couple of weeks doing that, problem solved. I felt free and I also felt that my teaching performance improved. I could also feel kids were learning more and their disposition towards my class was more positive than ever before. My left eye stopped twitching too!
Shortly after that, whenever I would go into the teachers' room, some teachers would look at me and lower their voice so I couldn't hear what they were talking about. They didn't like I was leaving early. They thought I didn't want to be part of the school. But I didn't care, I would just laugh when they complained about all of the extra tasks they had to do. I quit at the end of the school year and never looked back.
I know my story is barely related to the article, but I guess I just wanted to vent. Working extra hours because someone else tells you to do so is never worth the effort.
I truly hope the person of the GTAIV quote is doing much better now.
We had to stay until late sometimes discussing worthless stuff. The principal really wanted to make the school shine in the district. He would go to great lengths to organize cultural festivals and science fairs just to gather local attention, but we were the ones who had to do all the job. Oh right, these extra tasks were "optional" by the way.
It wasn't long until my left eye started to twitch and my head started to constantly ache. My bad mood was not fair for the kids I was teaching, so I just said "fuck it" and simply decided not to be part of whatever the school wanted to organize. As soon as I was done with my last class of the day, I was also leaving school way before my shift ended. Hell, sometimes I would leave 3 hours before my shift came to an end.
After a couple of weeks doing that, problem solved. I felt free and I also felt that my teaching performance improved. I could also feel kids were learning more and their disposition towards my class was more positive than ever before. My left eye stopped twitching too!
Shortly after that, whenever I would go into the teachers' room, some teachers would look at me and lower their voice so I couldn't hear what they were talking about. They didn't like I was leaving early. They thought I didn't want to be part of the school. But I didn't care, I would just laugh when they complained about all of the extra tasks they had to do. I quit at the end of the school year and never looked back.
I know my story is barely related to the article, but I guess I just wanted to vent. Working extra hours because someone else tells you to do so is never worth the effort.
I truly hope the person of the GTAIV quote is doing much better now.
"During GTA4 time at Rockstar North there was someone who had just had a baby and he was coming in early during the week and working late so he had weekends free," one person recalled. "He'd make sure all of his tasks were cleared, there were no bugs. But he was told by his boss at the time it was important he came in, and worked weekends. He said he couldn't come in at weekends as he would never see his family, but he was keeping on top of everything and keeping all his bugs down. Everything that was asked of him he'd do, and he was doing overtime during the week. So the boss went away, came back and dumped a load of stuff on his desk, and said, 'You'll have to work weekends now.' It was a matter of, you work the hours we want. He didn't last long after that."
How shitty is this??!!
Man, what a catch-22. Buying this game means the majority of profits go to the bigwigs who will see the $$$ as justification to continue these practices, not buying spits in the face of the developers. I wish I could directly funnel my $60 to the latter.
How shitty is this??!!
Man, what a catch-22. Buying this game means the majority of profits go to the bigwigs who will see the $$$ as justification to continue these practices, not buying spits in the face of the developers. I wish I could directly funnel my $60 to the latter.
This is simply not true for the people who work in the QA department. While Rockstar may be slightly different, many QA workers are fresh out of school or people with no school degrees who may not know better.
So no, it's not as easy as "Rockstar employees can just quit and go elsewhere" and to say that is rather dismissive. Some people feel like this is the only choice they have career wise.
I'm not American - many of the examples in this story seem flat out illegal (like dumping additional work on someone and saying they have to work weekends now). Is this legal in the US? Can't these workers file a complaint with a Ministry of Labour equivalent?
Can't believe how horrible some of these stories are - as in, they are legitimately unbelievable to me how horrid they are and seem like something from a different world.
Can't believe how horrible some of these stories are - as in, they are legitimately unbelievable to me how horrid they are and seem like something from a different world.
This stuff is commonplace in the UK in any sector from my experience, maybe not to the extreme crunch levels of Rockstar, but most management roles here are full of people like this. Often without qualification themselves, their job is to bleed the skilled workers dry. And then there's the problem of anti-academia and anti-intellectualism that is at least, prevalent in the North.
For example the place I work recently had an executive level meeting about producing an app, and one of the suggestions was could they get students on placement to produce the art and code for free.
One of our IT scheduling systems was built in Access by a student working part time, and the IT Dept wouldn't support it with any technical issues. They only stopped using it when the student asked to be paid for his time.
"Who cares about video games when there are starving kids in China"
Eh, people will continue to buy their games and it'll blow over after a week. Rockstar knows they can get away with it.
I'm glad this is starting to be covered by other outlets. I just hope this becomes more prominent in calling out these companies so change can happen.
Also i am disappointed by people who were willing to defend this to the point where they tried to make false equivalence arguments. Yes, there are plenty of unethical work practices in many companies and outsourced ones. No we shouldn't not discuss one that just happened to be your favorite game maker because change needs to happen and it needs to start from somewhere as long as people stop trying to silence it
Also i am disappointed by people who were willing to defend this to the point where they tried to make false equivalence arguments. Yes, there are plenty of unethical work practices in many companies and outsourced ones. No we shouldn't not discuss one that just happened to be your favorite game maker because change needs to happen and it needs to start from somewhere as long as people stop trying to silence it
With everything being said, I think that if you were at all interested in RDR2, you should still buy the game, boycotting the game will not have much effect on anything.
It's the articles and discussion that goes around that brings into light the suffering and pain that the creators (not the managers) put themselves through.
And Rockstar isn't the only place where this happens, crunch is sadly so prevalent it might have happened for your favorite game.
Probably the only thing we can do is stop uttering the phrase "lazy dev", support anyone who wants to work in game dev (and helping them however we can).
It's the articles and discussion that goes around that brings into light the suffering and pain that the creators (not the managers) put themselves through.
And Rockstar isn't the only place where this happens, crunch is sadly so prevalent it might have happened for your favorite game.
Probably the only thing we can do is stop uttering the phrase "lazy dev", support anyone who wants to work in game dev (and helping them however we can).
I can't think of a single friend who played GTA5 that is getting this game, and after hearing these stories, I'm glad they're not. The people on this forum complaining about delays seem to be absent whenever these threads show up though.
My concern with that is CEO's will just use that to give themselves and shareholders bigger bonuses, while still doing the exact same things with their employees.
My concern with that is CEO's will just use that to give themselves and shareholders bigger bonuses, while still doing the exact same things with their employees.
I mean this topic got covered in the newspaper where I work, and stories like this dissuade people from applying.
This combined with high turnover in the industry might start to shift things.
I mean if you want to work in video games, you know about Rockstar, and you've either worked their or heard about the stories there.
YNWA.
I was looking forward to this. Now, the taste has been knocked out of my mouth.
That's true and I agree 100% with your sentiment.
In the same way, big companies should plan their deadlines according to the amount of work requested by a title.
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