Eurogamer: The human cost of Red Dead Redemption 2

"During GTA4 time at Rockstar North there was someone who had just had a baby and he was coming in early during the week and working late so he had weekends free," one person recalled. "He'd make sure all of his tasks were cleared, there were no bugs. But he was told by his boss at the time it was important he came in, and worked weekends. He said he couldn't come in at weekends as he would never see his family, but he was keeping on top of everything and keeping all his bugs down. Everything that was asked of him he'd do, and he was doing overtime during the week. So the boss went away, came back and dumped a load of stuff on his desk, and said, 'You'll have to work weekends now.' It was a matter of, you work the hours we want. He didn't last long after that."

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Yeah, I'm pretty sure Rockstar is just full of sociopaths.

This is the same kind of abusive stuff you get with prison guards and drill sergeants.

Sounds like a nightmare. One of my relatives noticed I liked game a lot as a kid and asked if I'd like to make games. My answer was a quick no.

"During GTA4 time at Rockstar North there was someone who had just had a baby and he was coming in early during the week and working late so he had weekends free," one person recalled. "He'd make sure all of his tasks were cleared, there were no bugs. But he was told by his boss at the time it was important he came in, and worked weekends.

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Dude...

Nirolak said:

Yeah, I'm pretty sure Rockstar is just full of sociopaths.

This is the same kind of abusive stuff you get with prison guards and drill sergeants.

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Sounds like utter insanity.

Weird how GAAS was billed has ensuring sustainable revenue in between project and it just seems like it's just continuous crunch with more and more milestone to hit.

It somehow made developping game even more draining at Rockstar. I really hope that's not what's happening across the board.

"During GTA4 time at Rockstar North there was someone who had just had a baby and he was coming in early during the week and working late so he had weekends free," one person recalled. "He'd make sure all of his tasks were cleared, there were no bugs. But he was told by his boss at the time it was important he came in, and worked weekends. He said he couldn't come in at weekends as he would never see his family, but he was keeping on top of everything and keeping all his bugs down. Everything that was asked of him he'd do, and he was doing overtime during the week. So the boss went away, came back and dumped a load of stuff on his desk, and said, 'You'll have to work weekends now.' It was a matter of, you work the hours we want. He didn't last long after that."

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holy shit

Just shameful. Makes me not want to buy the game honestly.

Wow. Just...wow...

Glad that people are still talking about it, specially on its launch date.

That GTA4 quote, wow.

Nirolak said:

Yeah, I'm pretty sure Rockstar is just full of sociopaths.

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I work in a call centre and there are many managers here getting paid a lot of money to be professional sociopaths.

I think there is enough evidences out there. Terrible !

They need unions asap

I have mixed feelings playing RDR2 - on the other hand you want to support and admire the (too) crazy amount of work put in by all those people. But at the same time, I am supporting the continuation of these shitty practices by the higher ups @ R*...

At what point do you see a person doing all their tasks, working extra during the week, and wanting to spend time home with their newborn during the weekend... just to tell them to fuck off, punish them, and throw more work on top?

I can't even imagine how gut wrenching that would be. They obviously care about the game(s) to put in that kind of work and take the load off their coworkers' while also prioritizing family time, but their shit superiors treat them like a simple cog in the machine instead of a human.

Skronk said:

I work in a call centre and there are many managers here getting paid a lot of money to be professional sociopaths.

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I hope you've seen Sorry To Bother You. Fits with this thread as well, a bit too perfectly actually. :\

PROh1bited said:

They need unions asap

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.

What the fuck was that quote about GTA4, Jesus!

Goddamn that manager is evil.

What a shit company. Don't buy this game. Don't support these practices, and tweet these bastards to let them know why you won't be buying.

Damn :( that sounds like hell work conditions wise.

They're a company that, according to Leslie Benzies, has a history of manufacturing and spreading scurrilous allegations about employees on their shit list in order to get rid of them. There's also the fact they didn't just fire him. They fired his son, and everyone around him. Cleaning house of everyone who might question them, basically. They're sociopaths. Pure and simple. There is a deep moral and ethical rot that runs right up to the top of the company where principles like basic human decency, the truth, and actual laws don't really apply because lots and lots of money and of course "passion". What irritates me the most is that some of the companies that mistreat employees do so because money is tight. That's bad enough. But one understands the desperation behind it. Rockstar are shitting money.

LightKiosk said:

At what point do you see a person doing all their tasks, working extra during the week, and wanting to spend time home with their newborn during the weekend... just to tell them to fuck off, punish them, and throw more work on top?

I can't even imagine how gut wrenching that would be. You obviously care about the game(s) to put in that kind of work and take the load off your coworkers while also prioritizing family time, but your shit superiors treat you like a simple cog in the machine instead of a human.

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Yeah, that's the point where you need to stand firm and tell your superiors there has to be a work/life balance.

There is absolutely NO excuse for the reported crunch times this developer has, especially with that kind of budget and studio(s) head count ...

So why not leave? The consensus among staff I've spoken to is they stay because of Rockstar's continuing reputation as an industry-leading developer, and because of a camaraderie with friends and colleagues at the studio in the same boat.

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Rockstar staff I spoke to said they wanted to work at the company, just for a more manageable amount of hours. Staff say they know the company is well respected in the industry, that many of their colleagues are friends, and that they are "absolutely proud" of the work they have done. "Rockstar is the biggest name in the games industry and we love the work, we want to do it," someone says. "But it's damn hard."

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Seems like it would be a great place to work if the hours were under control. Hopefully that aspect changes.

That GTA4 shit is so horrible.

How is this company not being investigated? Especially after what happened with team bondi. The timing with telltale's closure is impeccable.

I hope the irony isn't lost on all the ERA members who are shocked by R*'s work ethic while they're rocking icons with Japanese anime characters, a medium that's been often referred to as slave labor.

Good thing that Eurogamer published this story too.

All that suffering by employees yet even gamers still have to suffer with controls of the Rockstar game.

Jesus, that sounds terrible.

The hours are just the most obvious symptom, but the culture of that company seems rotten, top to bottom.

What other job could the list of tasks be so spurious and indefinite that some shithouse manager can just dump a whole load of new bugs on your desk?

If I treated my employees like that I'd get sued by my unions and rightly so.


UNIONISE.

Heyrule said:

I hope the irony isn't lost on all the ERA members who are shocked by R*'s work ethic while they're rocking icons with Japanese anime characters, a medium that's been often referred to as slave labor.

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Are you offended or something to reach such point?

Kotaku and Eurogamer running these stories is only a good thing. Boycotts aren't gonna make a dent because not enough people care. But the bad publicity is going to be a problem in the long run if it doesn't let up.

They need to push for unions. Unions aren't a magic cure-all but having union representation at the board meetings would be a huge step in the right direction. The upper management at Rockstar seems to be completely out of touch with their employees and also seems to stick to a management type of yesteryear. This article, as well as the experience Jason Schreier had with at the Rockstar North offices, and some choice quotations from Jennifer Kolbe makes this all the more clear.

Now we know why the game is « recommended » and not « essential »

"During GTA4 time at Rockstar North there was someone who had just had a baby and he was coming in early during the week and working late so he had weekends free," one person recalled. "He'd make sure all of his tasks were cleared, there were no bugs. But he was told by his boss at the time it was important he came in, and worked weekends. He said he couldn't come in at weekends as he would never see his family, but he was keeping on top of everything and keeping all his bugs down. Everything that was asked of him he'd do, and he was doing overtime during the week. So the boss went away, came back and dumped a load of stuff on his desk, and said, 'You'll have to work weekends now.' It was a matter of, you work the hours we want. He didn't last long after that."

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This is straight up crime against humanity.

R* can go fuck itself.

Wasn't planning on buying red dead anytime soon anyway, but I'll be steering well clear of their games until management sort this shit out.

R* sounds like some sort of evil regime.

Disgraceful

illamap said:

All that suffering by employees yet even gamers still have to suffer with controls of the Rockstar game.

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I'm actually fucking amazed that your takeaway from this is "lazy devs." Absolutely stunning.

The saddest part of these stories is that these games are often ideal cases for expanding the workforce rather than forcing a small number of people to work more hours, the old story about 9 women not being able to make a baby in 1 month is totally true but for much of these broad content driven games I have to believe they could have spent more money up front building a workforce capable of doing the work without insane hours.

Ultimately it's more profitable to burn people out than to have more people than you need early on in a project (And you can't easily train people up at the end when you need more throughput) so the system continues and Rockstar will see hundreds of millions if not billions in revenue before repeating the cycle.

1) The pre-production of most games suck
2) These stories always feel heavy-handed, sorry.
3) It's time to find a way to unionize/duh

Don't worry, Jennifer Kolbe will be along with a statement downplaying this any moment now.

I think this article solidified it for me. I can't in good faith get red dead, as much as I want to play it. Rockstar is one of my favorite devs but this article honestly broke my fucking heart.

I can't help but think that all the insanely minute details like horse balls shrinking in cold weather weren't worth the insane amount of time it probably took to implement them.

illamap said:

All that suffering by employees yet even gamers still have to suffer with controls of the Rockstar game.

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I know you're trying to be funny but honestly fuck your shitty joke.

That anti-union scene in GTAV with Trevor working at the port is aging real well.

Well damn, looks like other outlets in fact are publishing articles about these conditions. Good on them.

I've worked in environments like this. I developed tendinitis in my wrists in my 20s due to environments like this. All you can do is leave and that's difficult because the money is good and it can take awhile to find another job that'll pay even close to what you're making.

Yeah this just made my decision to not buy RDR2 super easy. If I play it, it will be secondhand so that Rockstar gets no profits. Absolutely disgusting and really makes me not want to get into video game development as a career. Maybe regular software programming somewhere else.

Heyrule said:

I hope the irony isn't lost on all the ERA members who are shocked by R*'s work ethic while they're rocking icons with Japanese anime characters, a medium that's been often referred to as slave labor.

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What the fuck kind of point are you trying to make?

Interficium said:

I'm actually fucking amazed that your takeaway from this is "lazy devs." Absolutely stunning.

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It's actually interesting to note is that if you look at Glass Door reviews, a number of former Rockstar developers complain that instead of being allowed to spend time improving actual game mechanics they're forced to grind away on meaningless nonsense. There are even reviews that specifically mention a lack of polish on RDR2. And of course you don't dare tell your superiors that the gameplay has problems if you want to stay employed. The company harshly punishes boat-rockers. Some game developers take pride in how everyone has a voice and even the smallest employee's criticism of game design will be taken seriously. Rockstar is not one of those companies.

Heyrule said:

I hope the irony isn't lost on all the ERA members who are shocked by R*'s work ethic while they're rocking icons with Japanese anime characters, a medium that's been often referred to as slave labor.

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Fair point. I don't think its anything new though. Didn't the Shenmue AM'#2 DC team have to work 18 hours shifts for nearly a year to get the game done and out in 1999 in Japan? I seem to remember the Tomb Raider 2 and III team working insane hours to get the game done, so was the case for Aladine on the Mega Drive or how to PS hardware team didn't go home for a month or even had a bath/shower for over 2 weeks in the final month of development.
I think what's more worrying and seems to be new, is how the Rockstar Team are expected to work long hours, even after the game has shipped and long past the 'crunch period'

Triggerhappytel said:

What a shit company. Don't buy this game. Don't support these practices, and tweet these bastards to let them know why you won't be buying.

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Everyone on Era could not buy RDR2 and Rockstar wouldn't even feel it. Nobody's gonna give a shit about those @s on twitter either.

People are gonna buy it.

They are right now. The most productive thing we can do now is keep the issue of crunch and the need for real workers rights/protections in game development in the everyday enthusiast conversation around games. This problem does not live or die with any one game, but RDR2 can certainly be the catalyst to get folks to actually care about it and push the industry to solve it. These reports are the first step.