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Nanashrew

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,328
It's honestly annoying. This information should be spreading to other outlets to have continued discussion.
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Hard work is common in countless fields.

Rockstar doesn't seem to have a retention issue, so obviously the staff don't feel they're all that mistreated. They must feel they are well paid enough to compensate for some hard work now and again. Remember, crunching tends to happen at the end, leading up to release, and Rockstar doesn't release very often. I'm sure they have some slow times too. Some of them get OT pay. Some get royalties. $1.9BN paid out in the last 5 years, and over $500M in the coming year I bet.

They get to work on hit games, instead of games that come out and promptly disappear with nobody noticing.

In the last IGDA satisfaction survey, 95% of devs reported crunching in the last year or doing extended hours. Good luck making great games without any crunch at all. Like any creative endeavor with the reality of budgets and schedules, you're not going to achieve greatness with everyone punching the clock at 6pm.

The industry has already made huge strides in this area since EASpouse and similar lawsuits. Now, more employees get OT pay and mass layoffs at the end of projects are far less common, plus more studios recognize the benefits of not burning folks out.

Last thing, let's say you could somehow eliminate all extended hours. Say that requires 10% more staff, or 10% more development time. That pushes budgets up. Is everyone so outraged by this story also cool with game prices going up to pay for it?
You should check out the article on Kotaku. RDR2's crunch started in 2017. The employees have been in full crunch mode for a full year which is not something that's normal. Crunch is usually something for the last bit leading up to release, like say a couple of weeks, to a couple of months. Not a full year.
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,055
Appalachia
Last thing, let's say you could somehow eliminate all extended hours. Say that requires 10% more staff, or 10% more development time. That pushes budgets up. Is everyone so outraged by this story also cool with game prices going up to pay for it?
Absolutely cool with that. If someone prioritizes games being cheaper over the conditions the people making said games work in, they should probably re-evaluate some stuff about themselves.
 

Waddle Dee

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
3,725
California
Pretty much anything Rockstar puts out is going to get perfect scores across the board, regardless of the game's quality. There was no need to crunch their dev team so hard and make their lives hell. I feel really sorry for all the employees that can't come out and say anything because both their bosses and the Rockstar fandom would make sure they wouldn't be working in the industry anymore.
 

GLHFGodbless

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,285
People know their iphones and pretty much everything you use are made by kids in sweatshops in China. Why would people care that adults are being overworked to make video games?
 

Carn

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,990
The Netherlands
Because guys like Schreier actually resemble a journalist, while most other publications basically consist of just reviews and news.
 

antonz

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,309
Most Gamers have no concern other than "Give me my fucking game"

The "concern" over budgets etc. is cute. RDR2 is gonna probably generate a billion+ dollars in sales. GTAV has passed 2 billion. The proper staffing and budget to avoid crunch would still leave them with a stupid amount of profit
 

AcidCat

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,410
Bellingham WA
People know their iphones and pretty much everything you use are made by kids in sweatshops in China. Why would people care that adults are being overworked to make video games?

Yep. First World Problems. These employees are there by choice, most likely knew what they were getting into, and even as the story points out, accounts varied. Sure in some perfect world every employee in every industry would be treated fairly (whoever could agree on what 'fair' even means in this context is a whole different story) but until then this whole thing was of minor interest and just makes me glad I don't work in the industry. Looking forward to seeing the fruits of all that blood, sweat and tears in a couple hours.
 

Sheepinator

Member
Jul 25, 2018
28,161
The "concern" over budgets etc. is cute. RDR2 is gonna probably generate a billion+ dollars in sales. GTAV has passed 2 billion. The proper staffing and budget to avoid crunch would still leave them with a stupid amount of profit
95% of devs in the industry said they've experienced crunch or extended working hours in the last year. More than 95% of games don't do anywhere near GTAV's sales.
 

Spider-Man

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,353
I think it's been pretty well covered.

Jim Sterling did like 3 Jimquisitons in a row about it and other similar issues.
 

Deleted member 11976

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,585
I think the biggest thing to note is that a story like Schreier's probably took months to put together. You can't whip up a story with dozens and dozens of sources overnight.
 

jviggy43

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,184
Waypoint had a great podcast on the responsibility to cover this in a satisfying manner if youre interested in hearing more about this OP.
 

antonz

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,309
95% of devs in the industry said they've experienced crunch or extended working hours in the last year. More than 95% of games don't do anywhere near GTAV's sales.
Absolutely true. That is where Proper management and realistic game development come into the picture. The Game Industry is basically run like Kickstarter campaigns the difference being the Industry has enough money to keep repeating the same fuck ups over and over to an extent. There comes a time in development that there needs to be a sit down among division heads and the Producer/Management and realize they have gone well over a realistic scope for the time table given or for the staff they have on hand. That is supposed to be the role of the Producer to ensure this stuff goes smoothly. Running into the "inevitable" crunch time after time is a case of people not doing their jobs properly because Game Developers are replaceable trash as far as Publishers are concerned. There are plenty of Bright Eyes idiots waiting to hand over 60k to Full Sail University for their "Game Degree" etc and then line up to be treated like shit by publishers all so they can say they made it into the industry.
 

BlacJack

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
1,021
That's because what Kotaku "revealed" is that most people worked 45-60 hours during the crunch, and got paid 2x for it.

In most other industries, that's just called OT, but we can keep trying to crucify everyone if ya want. I guess we don't have enough hate and fear mongering going around, let's kick up huge problems over something normal or typical in adult life.
 

commish

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
2,274
It's honestly annoying. This information should be spreading to other outlets to have continued discussion.

You should check out the article on Kotaku. RDR2's crunch started in 2017. The employees have been in full crunch mode for a full year which is not something that's normal. Crunch is usually something for the last bit leading up to release, like say a couple of weeks, to a couple of months. Not a full year.

"Crunch" was my every day for years. Didn't see anything posted about that
 

liquidmetal14

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,094
Florida
Unfortunately crunch and long hours aren't a games industry exclusive.

People at my company work 70 hour weeks even if scheduled 50.

I know it's exorbitant and it doesn't excuse it vhton my end, people do it on their own will. Of course we all feel pressures and such but not like some may think.

If they're getting the OT and are willfully doing it to feed their families then I commend them.
 

kittens

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,237
Yeah it's hard not to feel cynical about this one. But the more we keep talking about it, the more outlets will cave into finally acknowledging it.
 

hanshen

Member
Jun 24, 2018
3,891
Chicago, IL
That's because what Kotaku "revealed" is that most people worked 45-60 hours during the crunch, and got paid 2x for it.

In most other industries, that's just called OT, but we can keep trying to crucify everyone if ya want. I guess we don't have enough hate and fear mongering going around, let's kick up huge problems over something normal or typical in adult life.

I work as an architect, 45-60 hours in my field is normal work hours, not even considered OT. You either accept this and design cool stuff that go on magazine covers or go work a easy job at a shitty firm and be miserable.
I'm sure a lot of game devs share the same mentality.
 
Oct 25, 2017
26,560
EVERY single article you referenced was either before Kotaku's report or flat out didn't discuss Kotaku's piece. READ the article and you'll see.
So ... you don't count the times other outlets talked about crunch in general this year or the times they talked about Rockstar this or last week, but you only count it as caring if they referenced or followed up on Jason's piece specifically, because they don't care?

That's ... dismissive and inconsistent.
 
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Nanashrew

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,328
So ... you don't count the times other outlets talked about crunch in general or the times they talked about Rockstar this or last week, but only the times they reference Jason's piece, because they don't care?
Jason's exposé goes beyond just crunch and what those older articles have, like the fear about their bosses, that if you're not seen on the weekends if one of them just so happens to come to work that day they could see you as lazy. If you leave or your contract ends before the game comes out you will not be in the credits of the game. And a whole bunch of quotes from current and former employees about the health risks and fear working at Rockstar.

Like, the article is very long.
 
Oct 25, 2017
26,560
Jason's exposé goes beyond just crunch and what those older articles have, like the fear about their bosses, that if you're not seen on the weekends if one of them just so happens to come to work that day they could see you as lazy. If you leave or your contract ends before the game comes out you will not be in the credits of the game. And a whole bunch of quotes from current and former employees about the health risks and fear working at Rockstar.

Like, the article is very long.
I'm aware, I just think its disingenuous to say other sites are ignoring the issue or don't care based on something that isn't even true.
 

data

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,833
You have to understand that mainstream media simply doesn't care. All they care about is the games R* makes not the people that are sacrificed to make it.

This goes for every game company that has a huge crunch culture. Naughty Dog was also one that was barely covered before it was basically silenced. CDPR as well
 

Sheepinator

Member
Jul 25, 2018
28,161
It doesnt matter how "easy" it is. If you're unable to get a project done without exploiting workers than you're not just evil but also incompetent.
If they're so evil and incompetent, why don't they seem to have any retention issues? It's strange how all the people having cases of the vapors always avoid answering that question. Where are the mass exoduses? Where are the PR's from other publishers saying they've hired X and Y from Rockstar? Where are the groups of disgruntled Rockstar employees setting up their own studio and signing with another publisher, like Respawn from Infinity Ward?

And again, perhaps, just possibly, it's not as easy as you think it is. 95% of devs do things a certain way, and many have years of experience, but you apparently believe it's so easy to fix based on, what, your zero experience?
 

Rudolph

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
671
Colorado by way of Louisiana
TBH I assume most outlets are just as bad as any other corporation. They flaunt they're pretty girl in front of the camera and don't talk about anything of substance until it's too big to ignore.
 

thecaseace

Member
May 1, 2018
3,227
I think even this thread brings more light to the issue as now I know which publications are willing to dodge one of the biggest stories of the moment in favour of maintaining a strong publisher relationship.

To those who want gaming coverage based more on more integrity than seems apparent from Eurogamer, IGN, Gameinformer and GameSpot I'd recommend Waypoint instead
 

ToddBonzalez

The Pyramids? That's nothing compared to RDR2
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
15,530
Hmm. I don't frequent IGN, gameinformer, etc. But I did see the story covered on the 3 gaming sites I read regularly (Kotaku, Polygon, and Waypoint). Said those big publications didn't give the story it's due though.
 

data

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,833
If they're so evil and incompetent, why don't they seem to have any retention issues? It's strange how all the people having cases of the vapors always avoid answering that question. Where are the mass exoduses? Where are the PR's from other publishers saying they've hired X and Y from Rockstar? Where are the groups of disgruntled Rockstar employees setting up their own studio and signing with another publisher, like Respawn from Infinity Ward?

And again, perhaps, just possibly, it's not as easy as you think it is. 95% of devs do things a certain way, and many have years of experience, but you apparently believe it's so easy to fix based on, what, your zero experience?
I don't think that's something that's celebrated. People leave big companies all the time.

It's especially true if Rockstar doesn't include them in the credits of the game if they leave part way. This isa really scummy move on Rovkstars part. Who's to say they worked there when you don't get credit for what you do
 

TaleSpun

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,449
I say that but Jason Schreier still got a code despite Rockstar knowing weeks ago he was working on his crunch piece.

If you read the piece you know that's one of many oddities along with the fact Rockstar chose to directly engage with Schreier over that piece at all. It's definitely not any sort of indication everyone would get the same treatment.
 

Sheepinator

Member
Jul 25, 2018
28,161
I don't think that's something that's celebrated. People leave big companies all the time.

It's especially true if Rockstar doesn't include them in the credits of the game if they leave part way. This isa really scummy move on Rovkstars part. Who's to say they worked there when you don't get credit for what you do
Their pay stubs and their co-workers giving references.
 

Skux

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,942
You could go to mainstream news outlets, but they wouldn't find it newsworthy.

This is just another mundane story about America's horrific work culture.
 

WillyFive

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
6,988
The Gamespot comments are usually filled by people telling devs to stop crying and finish the game. The audience simply doesn't care about this stuff.
 

MAN_FLANNEL

Banned
Jan 17, 2018
63
Even IF there was a problem at Rockstar, the general audience doesn't care. These are the same people that spout "lazy devs" every time a new Call of Duty or Bethesda game comes out.
 
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