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Oct 25, 2017
12,581
Cards that hit the board faster? Not sure what you mean. These cards hit the board faster than any other card besides patches. They cost no mana and no card advantage. You might not get to draw them but you might not get to draw dark iron dwarf or chain gang either.

You're misunderstanding. I am talking about the main body. 4 mana 4/4s don't see play for good reason, they're not good. But dark iron dwarf sees play, because it does something extra the turn it is played.

Tempo rogue doesn't play card draw, nor does it want to spend mana drawing only cards so I don't think that changes. The chance to draw the ambushes may just not be high enough to justify running this card is tempo rogue. I think someone did the math and found it to be about 50% to get get an ambush before turn 7 and that is when you play the card on 4.

I think you're not considering all the times you're just playing a 4 mana 4/4 here and not even on curve. Playing a 1 drop and si7 agent, for example, is way better than playing a 4 mana 4/4. You can easily fall behind in tempo unless you get super lucky and get the 4/4 very soon after. You will have games where the 4/4s never even get drawn, or are drawn where they make no impact.
 

BabyMurloc

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,890
Playing a 4 mana 4/4 is seldom going to lose you the game but getting a surprise free 4/4 might just win some. But I guess time will tell.
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,581
Playing a 4 mana 4/4 is seldom going to lose you the game but getting a surprise free 4/4 might just win some. But I guess time will tell.

Playing a 4 mana 4/4 will definitely lose you games, and I think that time will show that the amount of games you lose because you played a 4 mana 4/4 that doesn't impact the board immediately will outweigh all those times you got lucky and got a 0 mana 4/4 which also does nothing the turn it's played.
 

Karsticles

Self-Requested Ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,198
Prince Valenar isn't even good enough to see play in decks that lack 4-drops.

Also, I have to agree now that Exodia Mage needs a nerf. I was getting OTK'd as Fatigue Warrior, and as Antonidas was going "A hah!" over and over my 2-year old walked by, pointed at Antonidas and said "Stop! All done!"
 

Schreckstoff

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,617
Prince Valenar isn't even good enough to see play in decks that lack 4-drops.

Also, I have to agree now that Exodia Mage needs a nerf. I was getting OTK'd as Fatigue Warrior, and as Antonidas was going "A hah!" over and over my 2-year old walked by, pointed at Antonidas and said "Stop! All done!"
Prince Valanar sees play in mill rogue at times. It's pretty good.
 

Schreckstoff

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,617
What other option does rogue have for a taunt and or heal, it condends with tar creeper at most? You're getting a lot out of it if it's just a tidal surge and it can stabilize you if cast w/ valeera or after a vanish.

Of course you shouldn't play it in tempo rogue.
 

Karsticles

Self-Requested Ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,198
Prince Valanar sees play in mill rogue at times. It's pretty good.
Prince Valanar is definitely not good enough for Tempo rogue though. And I would argue it's a weak point in any mill deck that should be replaced asap.
I used to play Mill Rogue a lot in Wild, and Prince Valanar honestly never did anything for me. I think one game out of 10 he would heal me. The rest he ate removal.
 

Deleted member 8561

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
11,284
How am I supposed to play around an entire game of random mage spells?

Who thought it's good card game design to literally be completely unable to predict anything your opponent has?
 

fertygo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,567
4/4 on curve not gonna lose you the game wtf you guys smoking

Its gonna challenge 3/3 and chain gang token on curve that everybody playing based on current meta context

Prince Valanar effect just not good enough to continue to see play that new rogue card still remain to see.
 

JetBlackSVW

Member
Oct 27, 2017
133
Control warlock did pretty well against that deck. Defile, hellfire, and if it gets really out of hand (or if they over commit after completing quest) twisting nether. What class were you playing as?

I play as Control Mage. Problem was I couldn't really establish board control, when the quest was finished he had Murlocs on his side and it went downhill. At least I played later against a Murloc Paladin and won this time:)
 

Miletius

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
1,257
Berkeley, CA
Have to agree with Mobius here, the new 4 drop is good in miracle. You're never gonna get value out of it in tempo, there is no support for the draw mechanics needed to do so.

I'm pleased that Blizzard is supporting miracle again, as it's one of my favorite archetypes. I don't really enjoy this version of tempo rogue at all, I did enjoy jade and the more deathrattle oriented earlier builds as well as thief, but current tempo rogue is a boring archetype for me, feels like it could be played in any class, just import the decklist and find replacements for a few cards here and there.
 

Majukun

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,542
am i missing something or priests card are again pretty underwhelming compared to the others?
i also wonder why prist doesn't seem to be able anymore to get straight up good legends..last time the card that copies the opponent's deck..now the dragon that gives 2 turn to both...

but i'ma noob and maybe they are amazing and i can't see it
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,961
Las Vegas
am i missing something or priests card are again pretty underwhelming compared to the others?
i also wonder why prist doesn't seem to be able anymore to get straight up good legends..last time the card that copies the opponent's deck..now the dragon that gives 2 turn to both...

but i'ma noob and maybe they are amazing and i can't see it

Duskbreaker and Psychic Scream are insane. Dragon Soul is potentially insane too.

Unidentified Elixir could potentially be good but it's tough to say right now. Temporus does suck though.
 

Majukun

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,542
Duskbreaker and Psychic Scream are insane. Dragon Soul is potentially insane too.

Unidentified Elixir could potentially be good but it's tough to say right now. Temporus does suck though.

psychic scream works well but in very specific situations..in all the other instances it's a 7 mana card dead in your deck...also considering that usually priest is about control so you usually have stuff on the board, aren't you giving away your cards nd losing presence on the board too? sure it works well with jade decks when they start dropping a lot of heavy stuff..but not that much either since they usally can just pick up another 1 mana spell and restart dropping stuff..god i hate jade decks...

more or less the same stuff for the dragon...prist usually has stuff on the board,so you are attacking your own board too...but it might be useful if you pan on playing a "big" dragon deck,to help you clear the board while you wait to reach enough mana to strat using your heavy dragons.

but again,noob,so i might be talking nonsense in the grand scheme of the meta
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,961
Las Vegas
Revealed here. https://gnn.gamer.com.tw/3/155743.html

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greepoman

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,961
Hmm would tempo decks run that going in to bonemare turn? A lot of times they could play it and kill off the 2 cost minion immediately. I mean you already see some rogues run cairn so this seems at least on par?
 

bunbun777

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,802
Nw
Just streaked from rank 7 to 5 tonight with bigboi priest. Last 2 opponents were priests that conceded fairly early.
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,581
Psychic scream have potential to be as meta breaking as UI in first month of FT IMO

I know psychic scream will be good. On the other hand, maybe people are over-evaluating it. This hasn't been a heavy sticky death rattle meta for quite a long time. And I don't think the recruit stuff so far is particularly impressive. Maybe I am a little wrong there.

To me, this is more like a 7 mana twisting nether with the throws into deck package. It's definitely good in some match ups, particularly heavy tempo match ups with little hand refill. It'll really force decks to slow down a bit or risk punishment for over-committing. I like that somewhat anyway. But it also could be quite bad in some heavy value match ups.

Lets look at 2 decks it'll probably be ran in. Raza priest, as a 1 of... not exactly meta defining in there unless raza priest is so broken at that point that it just sits top tier 1 uncontested. In my estimation, people will find a way to target it. Some decks don't care if you twisting on 7 because you're already dead or they have enough follow up burn that you're dead anyway.

The other deck will be big priest, where value can matter in some match ups. And giving your opponent a ton of extra draws means you must be the aggressor, something that even big priest struggles with (unless they high roll barnes etc., then they're pretty good aggressors).

I think once raza priest is out of the equation, the card is probably okay because if value begins to matter enough the card has clear weaknesses. On the other hand, we don't know what new decks will come with temporus... I don't think dragon priest runs it though. Maybe some dragon control deck? Doubtful.
 

DSP

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,120
you will have effectively one less turn on average to beat razakus with this card, I think that can be meta breaking.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,686
Responding to what you mentioned, let me know if there's anything else you'd like me to reply to. Otherwise I'm assuming we're finished talking about this topic, since I don't want it to become too antagonistic or board-flooding. Thanks for your polite answers.

TYou accused me of focusing on winrates, but that isn't true.

[...]

It's the majority of the post you responded to but skipped over:

People hate whatever they lose to. Lose to aggro a bunch? What a bunch of bullshit, I died before I could even get my deck going! Lose to control a bunch! What the hell, they had answers for everything and I sat around top-decking and waiting for the match to end. Lose to combo a bunch? This isn't even interactive, my board is frozen and I'm not playing! Lose to midrange a bunch? LOL curvestone this game is terrible, uninstall!

And I won't pretend that I haven't had my share of anger toward some of these in the past. But it's healthier to move past it and realize that sometimes you get overrun. Sometimes your opponent has all the answers. Sometimes your board is frozen while all the combo pieces are drawn. Sometimes the curve is too strong and you get swallowed up by an impossibly strong board. If these things never, ever happened, those decks wouldn't work - it's how they work. One of those archetypes might bother you, but that doesn't mean it's inherently problematic. People tend to hate control and combo more than the other archetypes because they like "playing stuff" and seeing it hit the other person. If they don't get to do that, it makes them sad! :(

I did respond to the bolded paragraph in that the common factor in those cases is "Lose to [X] a bunch". Note that if you're losing to something a bunch, you're not winning, and that's why I was pointing out you're focusing on the winning aspect. My point was that some things feel bad to some players even if they win, and in my experience the things I disliked, I disliked even though I typically won, and thus your argument that people dislike what they lose against wasn't the whole picture.

Yes, there are many frustrating things with the game, and we all deal with it and move on, but I was trying to explain the thought process for some people, the reasoning behind it, and the reason certain mechanics feel bad to play against. The answer to this can be a fatalistic one -- the game is a certain way, everyone should deal with it and never ask or hope for change -- but I disagree with that approach, and either way it doesn't help one understand player thought processes.

In short, some people need to get over the idea that what "feels bad" to them is some kind of meaningful metric for changes to the game.
You and some other players no doubt feel this way, but I do not. In fact, even if you think "feeling bad" is a meaningless metric, and you don't mind playing a game that "feels bad" (even to you), I would suggest you reconsider solely because some players DO care. If enough players decide the game mechanics feel bad, they stop playing. Matchmaking suffers, Blizzard income suffers, and the game budget and state suffers. Slowly but ultimately, it affects everyone.
 

Sande

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,983
You and some other players no doubt feel this way, but I do not. In fact, even if you think "feeling bad" is a meaningless metric, and you don't mind playing a game that "feels bad" (even to you), I would suggest you reconsider solely because some players DO care. If enough players decide the game mechanics feel bad, they stop playing. Matchmaking suffers, Blizzard income suffers, and the game budget and state suffers. Slowly but ultimately, it affects everyone.
Something feeling bad or unsatisfying matters even more than balance. Game design 101. Usually those two are pretty strongly linked, but with freeze mage Blizzard have managed to create a deck that's not OP, but is still always miserable to play against, win or lose.
 

FeD

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,275
Decided to wait out a decent amount of reveals this time. Looks to be quite a fun set tbh. Hopefully Paladin gets some draw in the remaining cards.

Think Twig of the World tree is still my favorite card so far, pinging for 2 (or 4 for the DK) with the hero power is pretty damn valuable for a Druid and the class has enough draw to support a 20 mana turn late game.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,165
Some were running deathwing in their warlock quest deck so I guess this is for them. Also might have some niche uses in fast matchups where the warlock is far behind i guess.
 
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