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Dictator

Digital Foundry
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
4,947
Berlin, 'SCHLAND

I thought this would be a nice share for all of you graphics lovers out there and for those who are interested in the generational upgrades between the Wii U and Switch stages of Smash Bros.
This video is packed with informative and well-explained content describing how certain facets of rendering work and how it ties in with real time and non-real time aspects of Smash Bros. visuals. It is also made by ResetEra's wonderful brainchild

So much info :]
 

brainchild

Independent Developer
Verified
Nov 25, 2017
9,484
I should probably get on top of a few things here as there has been some confusion in the YouTube comments about the implications of this video.

Some people on this forum will be familiar with a lot of the terminology mentioned in the video, but the average person likely will not be, so it's necessary to provide some context as to how graphics work on a fundamental level. Also, many comparisons to real life made in the video are simply made to explain the motivation behind the artists' decision to make certain changes from Smash for Wii U to Smash Ultimate, not to suggest that the virtual counterparts are complex simulations of real life.

I also mentioned the use of 3D models for the plants in Peach's Castle, but I should clarify that those models are simply the reference from which the polygon impostors (front facing quads with lighting and shading) are converted.

Hope that clears up any confusion!

EDIT:

And thanks for the kind words, Dictator!
 
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Zyrox

One Winged Slayer Corrupted by Vengeance
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,648
Very great and insightful video. I already noticed before that quite a lot of work went into the returning stages and they weren't just ports as one might assume at first glance. Nice to see that analyzed (and explained) in detail. Thanks for that, brainchild.

It's actually kind of crazy that they updated these stages so much considering there's now over a hundred of them.
 

Jonneh

Good Vibes Gaming
Verified
Oct 24, 2017
4,538
UK
There's a Part 2 going up fairly soon :) Brainchild really lives up to his name!
 

brainchild

Independent Developer
Verified
Nov 25, 2017
9,484
Very great and insightful video. I already noticed before that quite a lot of work went into the returning stages and they weren't just ports as one might assume at first glance. Nice to see that analyzed (and explained) in detail. Thanks for that, brainchild.

It's actually kind of crazy that they updated these stages so much considering there's now over a hundred of them.

Thanks!

And I agree with your second point. I wasn't expecting so many stages to be upgraded, but it is kind of inevitable when changing to a PBR workflow.

There's a Part 2 going up fairly soon :) Brainchild really lives up to his name!

Haha, you would say that! XD

And I have to say yet again that your screenshot comparisons really did help make the production of this project a lot more efficient. Thanks again!

Gamexplain comin for that DF crown

I'm pretty sure both GX and DF are happy to co-exist. :)
 

foxuzamaki

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,608
I should probably get on top of a few things here as there has been some confusion in the YouTube comments about the implications of this video.

Some people on this forum will be familiar with a lot of the terminology mentioned in the video, but the average person likely will not be, so it's necessary to provide some context as to how graphics work on a fundamental level. Also, many comparisons to real life made in the video are simply made to explain the motivation behind the artists' decision to make certain changes from Smash for Wii U to Smash Ultimate, not to suggest that the virtual counterparts are complex simulations of real life.

I also mentioned the use of 3D models for the plants in Peach's Castle, but I should clarify that those models are simply the reference from which the polygon impostors (front facing quads with lighting and shading) are converted.

Hope that clears up any confusion!
Oh snap I didnt think you yourself was doing the video, I saw the video thumbnail earlier ans thought it was cute but I dont think the guys at GX were the technical type of guys, but its a whole different story id its you haha
 

brainchild

Independent Developer
Verified
Nov 25, 2017
9,484
Oh snap I didnt think you yourself was doing the video, I saw the video thumbnail earlier ans thought it was cute but I dont think the guys at GX were the technical type of guys, but its a whole different story id its you haha

The GX crew are certainly not novices when it comes to understanding what makes a game's visuals look good or bad. I'm just happy to be able to contribute to the channel!
 

Jahranimo

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,071
I loved this video, pretty informative and helps to appreciate the changes that were done for the stages. Looking forward to part 2!
 

brainchild

Independent Developer
Verified
Nov 25, 2017
9,484
I loved this video, pretty informative and helps to appreciate the changes that were done for the stages. Looking forward to part 2!

Thanks for watching!

For anyone interested in learning more about general graphics computing and technical artistry in computer science, here are a few useful links:

Learn how computer graphics work from scratch (work in progress):

https://www.scratchapixel.com

Learn Physically-based Rendering theory:

https://marmoset.co/posts/basic-theory-of-physically-based-rendering/

Learn about the workflows of PBR and how artists use them:

https://marmoset.co/posts/physically-based-rendering-and-you-can-too/

Enjoy!
 

neilyadig

Member
Nov 13, 2017
588
Just wanted to let you know I really appreciated the work and attention to detail that went into this.

Keep it up!
 

carlosrox

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,270
Vancouver BC
Didn't think it this was GX' forte but I see Brainchild himself did this video! Very nice!

Now I can finally put a voice to all your BOTW analyses :) !

Yup I noticed instantly when Smash U was revealed that it was a substantial visual upgrade and I'm still surprised by how much better it looks, and the stages in particular were noticeably better looking.
 

RedAhmed

Member
Jan 9, 2018
3,314
Great idea for a video! And awesome job done in educating those that don't know much (or anything) about graphics, like me lol.

They've put a lot of work in updating those stages, no wonder there aren't many brand new ones.
 

brainchild

Independent Developer
Verified
Nov 25, 2017
9,484
Didn't think it this was GX' forte but I see Brainchild himself did this video! Very nice!

Now I can finally put a voice to all your BOTW analyses :) !

Yup I noticed instantly when Smash U was revealed that it was a substantial visual upgrade and I'm still surprised by how much better it looks, and the stages in particular were noticeably better looking.

Yeah, I was pretty confused when the game was revealed proper and so many people claimed it was a port. I'm like, "uhh, are we looking at the same game?!"

Great idea for a video! And awesome job done in educating those that don't know much (or anything) about graphics, like me lol.

They've put a lot of work in updating those stages, no wonder there aren't many brand new ones.

Thanks. The more people that can appreciate the hard work that the developers put into this game (at the very least, on a visual level) the better!

I saw this video the other day but had no idea it was put together by a member of the forum. Very cool!

I just wanna say that your avatar reminds me of one of my favorite shows. Just rewatched the episode where Lal is 'born' and it's just as amazing as I remember years ago.
 

WillyFive

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
6,988
The amount of work that GX does for Youtube videos scares me. How is any of that sustainable?
 

Lozjam

One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Nov 1, 2017
1,967
I legitimately hope that brainchild becomes more of a GX regular. We could really use some more Nintendo focused, in-depth tech analyses.

Digital Foundry can only do so much, and I quite miss their very in depth look at developer techniques(versus just performance and resolution) on a lot of games. Here's hoping he takes a look at releases games, especially when Nintendo has more graphics intensive titles coming up.
 

Jonneh

Good Vibes Gaming
Verified
Oct 24, 2017
4,538
UK
I legitimately hope that brainchild becomes more of a GX regular. We could really use some more Nintendo focused, in-depth tech analyses.

Digital Foundry can only do so much, and I quite miss their very in depth look at developer techniques(versus just performance and resolution) on a lot of games. Here's hoping he takes a look at releases games, especially when Nintendo has more graphics intensive titles coming up.
Digital Foundry still do an insane amount of work beyond frame rate analysis, especially John with DF Retro!

I also hope we get to keep working with Brainchild, all of us were big fans of his BotW technical dissection here on Era.
 

Lozjam

One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Nov 1, 2017
1,967
Digital Foundry still do an insane amount of work beyond frame rate analysis, especially John with DF Retro!

I also hope we get to keep working with Brainchild, all of us were big fans of his BotW technical dissection here on Era.
I don't discredit their work at all! I love everything that DF does, and has done. Especially with DF retro. However, as noted with DF's analysis of Breath of the Wild versus Brain Child's, Brainchild's is much more in depth. Which makes sense. DF has way more content they need to cover, with an audience hungry for so much of all platforms, that they don't go completely in depth like they used to(which isn't a bad thing at all) with new titles(like with DF Retro). So it's really nice to have perspectives and multiple analyses from multiple people. Especially since much of it is merely conjecture.

(By the way, I bet if Brainchild made his BotW analysis into a GX video, it would make it a lot more visible, and be completely awesome).
 

GiantBreadbug

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,992
Have already watched when they were posted in the Smash DT, but:

1) very Nice and Good videos

2) mandatory viewing for anyone who still can't stop themselves from calling this anything but an entirely new game
 

Le Dude

Member
May 16, 2018
4,709
USA
I wonder if we could see even further improvements now that the game is close to release. It's not uncommon for Nintendo games to get an upgrade closer to release, but I dunno if that's been the case for Smash Bros in the past. It'll be interesting to see if there's any changes when we finally see another big blowout on the game in the next month or so.
 

brainchild

Independent Developer
Verified
Nov 25, 2017
9,484
If any of you here have specific stage requests for our bonus video, just post them here for a chance to have it featured in the video! And thanks again to everyone who watched the analysis :)

The amount of work that GX does for Youtube videos scares me. How is any of that sustainable?

Lots of flexibility and freedom outside of time sensitive content. Seems to be working out just fine if you ask me!

Nice videos, but I still hard to really understand what he is talking about!
But the stages does look even better when zoom in

Sorry to hear that you had trouble understanding the explanations. If you have any specific questions, just let me know and I'll be happy to help.

bandai namco did some magic onto Smash Bros 4 Wii U, which is why this port looks better than most

Hahaha

I legitimately hope that brainchild becomes more of a GX regular. We could really use some more Nintendo focused, in-depth tech analyses

I don't think you should be too concerned about that :)

Digital Foundry can only do so much, and I quite miss their very in depth look at developer techniques(versus just performance and resolution) on a lot of games. Here's hoping he takes a look at releases games, especially when Nintendo has more graphics intensive titles coming up.

Digital Foundry do a fantastic job at evaluating performance metrics AND explaining how developers implement new and old techniques to bring their games to life. I think the perception that they only focus on performance and image quality is because these things tend to dominate the conversations of their audience, so they necessarily cover their bases on that front.

I do not want to legitimize the notion that there can only be one bona fide tech analyst channel (not saying that you're suggesting this, but I know some people are thinking it). If you think about the scientific community - a community entirely based on objective analyses - it would be preposterous to suggest that the findings of only one scientist could be acceptable. That is why we have peer-reviewed studies, to remain as objective as possible; it's part of the scientific method for a reason.

It is very healthy and important to have many independent sources for technical analyses, and I'm sure DF is happy to co-exist with GX, as I've mentioned before.

Having said that, I do think the more Nintendo-focused content at GX effectively carves out a different audience than DF's audience, with possibly different interests and expectations, so we have to make content accordingly.

I also hope we get to keep working with Brainchild, all of us were big fans of his BotW technical dissection here on Era.

And you of all people know that I don't plan on going anywhere, XD
 
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SiG

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,485
Jonneh brainchild The reason why space in Lylat cruise looks "grey" is because of the Wii U's Limited Range RGB output having an effect on the video capture (especially when calibrated incorrectly, so black levels end up appearing "off").

See MyLifeInGaming's video regarding limited vs. full-range RGB in their 4k gaming feature (featuring John Linneman from DigitalFoundry!):


I've been trying to tell GameExplain that they need to get their capture cards callibrated properly, otherwise all footage will seem to have that "grey mask" put on top of it.

For the rest of the the video, yeah, what you've highlighted is spot on! Smash Ultimate is using a new PBR pipeline, and I'm starting to think Nintendo will be using PBR pipelines for all of their future games (even a "low profile" title like Kirby: Star Allies uses PBR).
 
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GiantBreadbug

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,992
If any of you here have specific stage requests for our bonus video, just post them here for a chance to have it featured in the video! And thanks again to everyone who watched the analysis :)

I know the remastered 3DS stages are so dramatically reworked that doing in-depth analysis might be trivial, but I'd love to hear more about the new versions anyways. They're one of the most impressive aspects of Ultimate to me.

I cannot stinkin wait to see Reset Bomb Forest in action in Ultimate
 

brainchild

Independent Developer
Verified
Nov 25, 2017
9,484
SiG

Yes, it is true that Wii U's limited RGB output does have an effect on the pixel values of video captures (especially those without proper calibration), so it's probably something I should have brought up in the analysis and will take into consideration going forward, but this does not change the fact that Smash for Wii U was developed under an LDR pipeline and Smash Ultimate was developed under an HDR pipeline.

Even on my native TV set, very bright values clip to white and very dark values clip to black, with loss of detail occurring at both ends of the spectrum. It's not just a case of the scenes looking washed out (that's just an easy way to describe the difference in quality with LDR rendered images), but there is simply less detail visible in the same amount of pixels. So I'd say the issue is even more compounded by the limited RGB problem, but it's not the sole reason for the difference in contrast.

And yes, it would seem as though most of their teams switched over to PBR; it's simply a more efficient workflow, even if the main goal isn't realism.
 
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ned_ballad

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
48,299
Rochester, New York
The weird thing about 75m being 2D is that it's not 2D in Game and Watch's trailer, and it just ends up looking the same as it did in Smash 4

Which makes me wonder if the "screenshot" for 75m is actually of the stage or if they're faking it to make the stage appear more accurate for some reason. Because it's not how the official image of it seems in game
 

brainchild

Independent Developer
Verified
Nov 25, 2017
9,484
The weird thing about 75m being 2D is that it's not 2D in Game and Watch's trailer, and it just ends up looking the same as it did in Smash 4

Which makes me wonder if the "screenshot" for 75m is actually of the stage or if they're faking it to make the stage appear more accurate for some reason. Because it's not how the official image of it seems in game


The screenshot used in the analysis is an official asset from Nintendo. Not sure why there appears to be two different versions of this stage, but I guess we'll know more when the game comes out.
 

ned_ballad

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
48,299
Rochester, New York
The screenshot used in the analysis is an official asset from Nintendo. Not sure why there appears to be two different versions of this stage, but I guess we'll know more when the game comes out.
I know it's the official screenshot

It's been bothering me since they released, because it doesn't match how 75m looks on the game
 
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Handicapped Duck

â–˛ Legend â–˛
Avenger
May 20, 2018
13,676
Ponds
Watching both videos back-to-back had me like:But seriously, great job brainchild and GameXplain crew for the analysis, was very informative and impressive to see how much has changed between the two games. Makes me look forward to future Nintendo titles if they are going to go with PBR lighting.
 

ILikeFeet

DF Deet Master
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
61,987
Watching both videos back-to-back had me like:But seriously, great job brainchild and GameXplain crew for the analysis, was very informative and impressive to see how much has changed between the two games. Makes me look forward to future Nintendo titles if they are going to go with PBR lighting.
All of their games on Switch are Physically Based already (except maybe MK8)
 

brainchild

Independent Developer
Verified
Nov 25, 2017
9,484
Watching both videos back-to-back had me like:But seriously, great job brainchild and GameXplain crew for the analysis, was very informative and impressive to see how much has changed between the two games. Makes me look forward to future Nintendo titles if they are going to go with PBR lighting.

LOL, thanks.

All of their games on Switch are Physically Based already (except maybe MK8)

Yup. MK8 has some issues with energy conservation and I don't consider a PBR workflow to be up to standard unless it's energy conserving. Having said that, the MK8 stage in Ultimate is definitely energy conserving so I'd say it's probably the most realistic looking version of that track. The HDRI image based lighting really transforms the look of that track.
 

ILikeFeet

DF Deet Master
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
61,987
oh yea, and Captain Toad. I don't think any of their Wii U games were physically based (except BotW). maybe Wind Waker HD was? they used it as look development for BotW, so I wonder if they were running the game through the same renderer
 

brainchild

Independent Developer
Verified
Nov 25, 2017
9,484
oh yea, and Captain Toad. I don't think any of their Wii U games were physically based (except BotW). maybe Wind Waker HD was? they used it as look development for BotW, so I wonder if they were running the game through the same renderer

WWHD's development is when they actually started experimenting with PBR for BOTW (they mentioned this at GDC almost 2 years ago). Other PBR experiments included Skyward Sword and Twilight Princess, and both looked amazing from the screens they showed at the conference. It's a shame those games were never fully remade.

Their earliest experiments on Wii U would probably be Nintendo Land and Super Mario 3D World. You could tell they were getting their feet wet with the new workflows, but the materials were far more artist driven back then in terms of authoring and calibration compared to their current Switch games.
 

Deleted member 10737

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
49,774
really enjoyed these videos. great job as always, brainchild
i don't understand 90% of the terms, but it's still very fun and relaxing to watch :)
i also LOVE your thread here about botw
 
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brainchild

Independent Developer
Verified
Nov 25, 2017
9,484
1) very Nice and Good videos

Thanks!

I wonder if we could see even further improvements now that the game is close to release. It's not uncommon for Nintendo games to get an upgrade closer to release, but I dunno if that's been the case for Smash Bros in the past. It'll be interesting to see if there's any changes when we finally see another big blowout on the game in the next month or so.

I'm sure the final game will be very polished. Can't wait to see it!

I know the remastered 3DS stages are so dramatically reworked that doing in-depth analysis might be trivial, but I'd love to hear more about the new versions anyways. They're one of the most impressive aspects of Ultimate to me.

I cannot stinkin wait to see Reset Bomb Forest in action in Ultimate

Can't make any promises at the moment, but we'll see.

really enjoyed these videos. great job as always, brainchild
i don't understand 90% of the terms, but it's still very fun and relaxing to watch :)
i also LOVE your thread here about botw

Thanks for watching and if you have any questions, feel free to ask!

Will we see a physically based pokemon? Only time will tell

Well, technically, Pokken already gave us a glimpse of that XD
 

Prophet Five

Pundeath Knight
Member
Nov 11, 2017
7,693
The Great Dark Beyond
I didn't understand half of it. Then again, I'm not very bright. (AHAHA A LIGHTING PUN IN A VIDEO ABOUT LIGHTING EFFECTS) but I enjoyed watching it just to see how well they've done on the stages. So excited for this game.