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Joqu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,033
The Waffle Kingdom
I guess I meant in terms of the character's identities being an important part of the story.
I suppose previously it was a lot of female companions, so I assume they've done suffragette episodes before (as the obvious choice)?

First of all I'm just going to recommend Vincent and the Doctor as a celebrity historical that feels like it'd probably please fans of this one. It's an Eleventh Doctor story centered around Vincent van Gogh, and ultimately it's about mental illness. The episode handles it well, it's very emotional and the companion plays a major part in the story. It definitely comes to mind as something similar.

But it's not quite what you're talking about in terms of the identities of the characters. I'd say there actually haven't been too many of those, no. They haven't done Suffragette on television, though a google search tells me an audio story exists. I'm quite interested in checking that one out now.
 
Nov 3, 2017
2,223
Holy shit that was incredible. I think I like the Woman That Fell to Earth more as a thing I have on while doing other stuff, but as an episode, this is my favourite so far of Jodie's run
 

APZonerunner

Features Editor at VG247.com
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
1,764
England
I've only watched the Cipaldi iteration so I'm just wondering how typical an episode like this one is, considering it's a time travel show.

The Doctor meeting celebrities is pretty common - we've had Charles Dickens, Agatha Christie, Madame de Pompadour, Winston Churchill etc as major guest stars like Rosa here - but this is significantly more involved with real historuy. Other times it's typically been more campy, like Dickens actually encountering "ghosts" (actually aliens) and Christie being trapped in a scenario straight out of her own murder mystery novels.
 

Cosmonaut X

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,952
The Doctor meeting celebrities is pretty common - we've had Charles Dickens, Agatha Christie, Madame de Pompadour, Winston Churchill etc as major guest stars like Rosa here - but this is significantly more involved with real historuy. Other times it's typically been more campy, like Dickens actually encountering "ghosts" (actually aliens) and Christie being trapped in a scenario straight out of her own murder mystery novels.

I think the comment I saw elsewhere - that this is more in keeping with the Hartnell historicals than stuff like "The Unicorn and the Wasp" - is pretty on-the-mark. It's less of the New Who school of "ooh, what if Edgar Allan Poe met the Doctor and they fought an alien invasion together and that's why he wrote fantastic fiction!"
 

Cirrus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,127
Amazing episode, for me it is easily one of my favorite Who episodes.

I was worried that they would somehow try to involve the Doctor in the civil rights movement which would lessen it all, but they balanced everything superbly with the Doctor only playing a guardian of time role.
 

thefro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,996
First great episode of the Whittaker/Chibnall era. Not sure if I'd quite put it on the very top tier of episodes but it's certainly a tier below that if not. Great score and well-written/directed. It managed to be pretty direct and not dance around things without being cheesy or putting the TARDIS team as the ones starting the Civil Rights Movement.

Of course the American Southern accents by the British actors are generally trash and all over the place, although this wasn't as jarring as other episodes have been on that front. I do think it's a valid point to complain about the villain being toothless by the end, but thematically it certainly works and is satisfying.

I do think this episode is one the US audience will like better then the British audience. To me it rang pretty true as to what I've been taught/heard about that era as a white American male and the fact that we're not all the way there yet in terms of equality today.
 

Paradox

Member
Oct 28, 2017
690
Yep. Smiths third story was a world war 2 episode with Churchill and the Victory of the Daleks.

9th Doctor has a run in with Charles Dickins

10 had a connection with Madame de Pompadour

12 met... Robin Hood?

In retrospect it makes sense that 12 met barely anyone famous because he wasn't that kind of Doctor. You can't imagine him doing the whole, "Agatha Christie! I love your books. Especially the one about the Nile. Have you written that yet?" etc etc.

You could maybe have done an episode like this with a more 'serious' celebrity, but even then I think it wouldn't have suited his Doctor (he would've been all about thumping the racist rather than preserving history)
 

Deleted member 426

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,273
For those saying this episode was a bit preachy, what you have to remember is that the BBC has a remit to educate, entertain and inform, so the historical and social education on display in this episode is a really important part of what the BBC want to do with this show. If ITV did this show maybe that material would be toned down, but for the BBC they'll want to push that stuff because it's in line with their values as an organisation.

Edit: also I LOVED this episode!
 

Mama Robotnik

Gaming Scholar
Member
Oct 27, 2017
674
I thought it was great. Very impressed that they were so explicit with the racist language and the references to Ryan's modern-day difficulties with Stop and Search. There was even subtle acknowledgement of Trump with the talk of what contrast could come after Obama.

The villain just being a future racist was perfect. Racism doesn't magically go away in the future, and everyone must be ready to fight it.

Really quite engrosing. Don't agree with the "heavy handed" or "On the Nose" criticisms at all as given so many of the audience will be children, the more explicit the content, the better. I fought it pulled no punches, even referencing racist murders via lynching.

This Doctor Who feels different to anything, and that's great.
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
One thing I really like is how Rosa Parks is her own character and isn't "inspired" by Doctor Who like in some other Historical Celebrities episodes. This episode does show they strengths of having a more character focus season over a plot focus season as all the characters get a good chance to shine here. Easily the best episode of the season.
 

Platy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,829
Brazil
Loved the episode.

Not only the back to the future 2 level of fixing shit time travel but the small things like the banksy joke and the fact that they had to be on the buss is such a powerfull detail to the scene
 

LL_Decitrig

User-Requested Ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
10,334
Sunderland
I watched it. It was, indeed, "on the nose", but in the right way. For British viewers, the connection between contemporary Sheffield teenagers and the historic moments in the fight against racism could not have been spelled out more clearly. Yaz and Ryan come out from behind the dustbins in Montgomery, Alabama to foil the space Nazi.
 

Silver-Streak

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,011
I enjoyed the episode, however I couldn't help but notice that without the coat, The Doctor's current outfit looks very much like Mork's from Mork and Mindy.
 

PaulloDEC

Visited by Knack
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,461
Australia
Liked this one a lot, probably the strongest so far this season. Yes, it felt like a bit of a "very special episode" at times, but that goes with the territory I think.

Some of the details surrounding the villain felt a bit sloppy, but I can forgive that.
 

DangerMouse

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,402
Gonna need to find a gif of that moment in the first half of the ep where she quickly walks back to the asshole after he trash talks them again while they're leaving and abruptly leans in and scans with her Sonic lol :D

Agree with previous comments, this was the best ep yet for the soundtrack. That music that plays when the Doctor realizes their mission here was to protect the timeline was fantastic. Probably the most standout piece yet. Also, I really liked that track with the horns(?) earlier in the ep.

"Oh?! It worked!" LOL

The Doctor meeting celebrities is pretty common - we've had Charles Dickens, Agatha Christie, Madame de Pompadour, Winston Churchill etc as major guest stars like Rosa here - but this is significantly more involved with real historuy. Other times it's typically been more campy, like Dickens actually encountering "ghosts" (actually aliens) and Christie being trapped in a scenario straight out of her own murder mystery novels.
Yeah, just finished it, it was a really good addition to these kinds of episodes. Great interactions by the main group too.

Jodie's performance as the Doctor bearing witness to history rather than creating it was phenomenal. Really nice moment.
Yeah.
 
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Effect

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,945
I agree the strongest episode of the ones released so far in regard to the story, acting, music, etc. I was so worried about this episode since the preview last week but glad they pulled this off!
 

Worthintendo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
953
I mean my complaints about this season still exist, that it lacks the whimsy, but an episode like this it would have stood out like a sore thumb. This was a great episode and covered it well and without really holding back which surprised me. I was concerned when I learned of this episode's premise.
I think this is still my main gripe with the season, it lacks the whimsy and fun of Matt Smith and Capaldi eras. I'm still liking the show, but I just wish it felt more fantastical. That said an episode like today's you don't really want to do fantastical.

Also its funny, going into this series I didn't think I'd like Graham, wasn't sure what he'd bring but he's quickly become my fav companion out of the 3. Loved him standing up with Ryan.
 

PaulloDEC

Visited by Knack
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,461
Australia
I have a theory that Doctor Who is best when they don't focus a lot on the bad guy

Not sure I'd agree with that, there's been plenty of really interesting baddies over the years. The issue here I think is that "Rosa Parks" episode came first, and then the writer had to come up with a reasonable way to cram a sci-fi antagonist in there.

The idea of a white supremacist from the future time-travelling back to sabotage civil rights is pretty interesting, but Kraskow's methods raise a lot of questions.
 

Watchtower

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,745
Through the first two episodes I was overall enjoying everything, from the overall writing to the new Doctor to the companions, but part of me felt like it hadn't quite hit its mark. One low-key issue I was having was all of the shortcuts: the camera tricks and write-arounds that were clearly meant to keep the special effects as minimal as possible, something that felt disappointing after Moffat spent years making the series more grandiose.

This episode, however, is truly great. Like many, I was nervous as to how they'd handle an episode like this and it handled it beautifully. Sure, this way it conveys its message isn't exactly subtle, but 1) this kind of episode really can't be, and 2) it still executes on that message superbly.

I haven't seen anyone mention it, but I really liked the villain. A pretty boy with a slick haircut and a smooth greaser look....all a mask for a white supremacist who uses little machinations in order to snowball grander long-term changes. The influence from far-right populist movements like the alt-right is pretty clear - and to a degree blatant, like many other things in this episode - but it shows an understanding of what this threat looks like, how it operates, and how it can still exist, even far off into the future. And that sort of portrayal is crucial in creating something that can teach people what this current threat is and how to stand against it.
 

M.Bluth

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,319
That was alright. Really enjoyed Robinson as Rosa, and the idea of a space alt-right piece of shit trying to change history for a villain was pretty nice.

I think with some tweaking it would've actually ended up really great in my book, though. Chibnall's shortcomings show through here, because you know RTD and Moffat would've given the Doctor some awesome, scathing, and hilarious lines to tear the villain with.
Also, I would've lost the MLK scene, it was just so clumsily done.

Edit: I forgot... What's the significance of the asteroid? Maybe I'm missing something, but an asteroid named after Rosa Parks came across as lame. An inhabited planet or a star or a space institute of some sort would've made more sense with the "changed the universe" line.

I am also getting sick of the doctor going "Oh I am a woman." I was hoping that this would be done and over in the first episode and not still around in the third episode. ¬_¬;

It's like they need to remind the viewers that the Doctor is a woman rather than develop her as a character which so far is bland.
She spent more than 2000 years of her life as a man, I'd say slipping a couple of times and forgetting that she changed gender a couple of days or so ago is fairly believable, and more importantly, fine.
 
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Dalek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,104
That was phenomenal and one of my favorite episodes in a long time. I love everything about this new season and the new cast.
 

DrForester

Mod of the Year 2006
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,831
I enjoyed this. I also like the razor thin line they walked with this episode. Having the Doctor and company not really impact Parks in any way. They didn't inspire her, talk her into it, really do anything but just made sure no one interfered. And they did a pretty good job of it.


Questions though.

Is Rosa Parks and her story really well known in the UK, or were the companions just made aware of her in this episode to speed along exposition?

I felt more tension and worry for the companions in this episode than I ever have for anyone stranded on an alien planet being hunted by Daleks or whatever.

Reminded me of Quantum Leap episodes where Sam leaped into the South.
 
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Halbrand

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,630
I haven't had time to watch the episode yet but looking at the spoilers apparently the Doctor forces Graham to be the one Rosa denies the seat because he was destined to be that man? That sounds incredibly stupid.
 
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Dalek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,104
I haven't had time to watch the episode yet but looking at the spoilers apparently the Doctor forces Graham to be the one Rosa denies the seat because he was destined to be that man? That sounds incredibly stupid.

It's not forced. He stands up to leave and then the Doctor realizes that if they leave there will be empty seats-and therefore Rosa won't be forced to move. It sucks but the villain had meddled to prevent people from getting on the bus so they were forced to do it

"Incredibly stupid" is a bit of a knee jerk reaction.
 

Mulciber

Member
Aug 22, 2018
5,217
I really liked that episode a lot! It was well done. (Supergirl tonight was about a similar idea, interestingly.) Also I know some people thought the villain felt toothless, but I actually really liked that he had to manipulate the historical events rather than just attack Rosa. And them having to fix or undo that was great. I'm looking forward to being scared by spiders next week. :D
 

LL_Decitrig

User-Requested Ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
10,334
Sunderland
Is Rosa Parks and her story really well known in the UK, or were the companions just made aware of her in this episode to speed along exposition?

A bit of both. King is universally known, and if you asked about other prominent American Civil Rights figures you might hear Malcolm X or Rosa Parks. Having Graham know the name of the bus driver was unusual but this was accounted for in the story. Grace being acquainted with such details sounds true to her character as depicted in the first episode.


Reminded me of Quantum Leap episodes where Sam leaped into the South.

I got a strong Quantum Leap vibe, too.
 

Dalek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,104
I really liked that episode a lot! It was well done. (Supergirl tonight was about a similar idea, interestingly.) Also I know some people thought the villain felt toothless, but I actually really liked that he had to manipulate the historical events rather than just attack Rosa. And them having to fix or undo that was great. I'm looking forward to being scared by spiders next week. :D

We just had a spooky episode about spiders on the moon only a few years ago. :(
 

BDS

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,845
This was a great episode. Before I watched it I was dreading it, since there were so many ways an episode like this could backfire and be done poorly, but I think they did it well. I liked that the villain wasn't some wacky alien or something but instead just a garden variety racist with a time machine. The most evil villains are the ones that are most realistic. The ending was great too. I also liked the little bits of continuity like artron energy, Stormcage prison, and "cheap and nasty time travel" vortex manipulators.
 
Jan 4, 2018
1,163
First two episodes didn't do much for me, but like many others have been saying this one was great, firing on all cylinders. Story, characters, tone, music, jokes, just pretty much everything. Love how it had an almost horror vibe to it at times, especially the first scene.

Not a complaint, but I was kind of hoping the bad guy was gonna be an ex-time agent that knew captain jack or something.
 
OP
OP
Dwebble

Dwebble

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,641
For an episode that absolutely could have been a total disaster, I thought that was astoundingly good.
 

CommodoreKong

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,760
Really good episode, best of the season so far and up there with Vincent and the Doctor as the best historical episode of New Who.
 

Spectone

Member
I think this episode is now my favourite of all time. I loved the villain who can't hurt or kill people but still manages to be evil. I loved the tension of them trying to make sure the events happen the way they should. I liked the tension over Ryan being safe in that environment. I also almost cried at the end of this episode, with Graham and the Doctor forcing themselves to stay on the bus so that Rosa would be arrested even though they did not desire that to happen.