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Deleted member 11413

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This is a pretty bad article, the writers clear agenda against Steam only detracts from the points of the developers



I mean, they do that because it keeps people using steam. Other companies selling Steam keys reinforces their dominance.
Right, I understand that. They do it for free though, if a retailer wants to sell a PSN download code for a game then Sony is still making a cut from that sale. Steam could be taking a cut from keys they generate, but they don't. I'm not saying this makes them benevolent or something, but it does give them an edge in terms of consumer and developer benefit compared to other platforms.
 

Griffith

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Oct 27, 2017
5,585
Just curious, can you think of any example of a retailer (does not need to be a digital games storefront) that does this well in your estimation?

Steam used to be a good example of a curated store that offered good sales and provided relevant games. Those games are obviously still there but the lack of curation has made the store seem more like it's throwing spaghetti at a wall than it is providing solid recommendations of manually approved games in a curated frontpage.

Outside of Steam I can't think of other stores that do a decent job presently. Like I previously said, all stores are within a varying scale of bad-to-abysmal in terms of their curation, layout, organization and suggestions. I'm much more likely to find a relevant deal that interests me in a forum post from a forum like this one than I am from the storefront where it is featured. All of the biggest online stores have severe flaws in my opinion.

In the case of the former, I think it's been clear for a while that Valve has no intentions of gatekeeping which games are allowed to be sold, and I fail to see how the old situation where many devs aren't given the opportunity to sell their game and customers are given less options for games to buy is good for anyone except established publishers.

I'm not against their stance on gatekeeping, but I do think that it makes their task of doing automated-curation harder and it lowers the perception of quality that people used to associate with Steam as can be seen by the ridiculous amounts of shovelware and asset-flips. I think they should have a minimum standard of quality. Supposedly they do have one, but for a lot some examples I've seen that standard seems to be "Does it not crash when we open it?". I think their standards, whatever they currently are, should be higher.

This seems more of a complaint about the higher prices and lower discounts on Steam rather than a benefit of a store like Humble for example.

Sorry, but it isn't. I do admit that Valve's recent deals aren't as appealing as they were a few years ago but that's not what my complain is about. My complain is that the deals that I'm most likely to be interested in aren't easily found using Steam's interface. I'm far more likely to find a deal I find appealing to me in a list of sales or some random Google docs generously made by someone than I am through the store itself.

There is no Steam game I have bought on sale in the past couple of years that I didn't find outside of Steam. That is the issue. A Google Docs spreadsheet, or a video from a Youtube personality I follow, is better at transmitting the information I want and helping me find the deal I want than the store I want to buy that game from.

Admittedly, I understand that this is a hard issue to solve. No company has been able to find a good solution for it but I think Valve's efforts are lacking in attempting to solve it, when they try to solve it they add too little to fix an issue and often times fail to follow-up on it (for example their Curators program, which is still severely limited and offers no incentive to the people helping them sell more games). Valve wants to solve a very big and complicated problem with as least effort as possible and as hands-off as they can and I think that isn't viable in the short term. I think they need more experience in manual curation before they moved to something that is fully automated.
 
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Deleted member 12790

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So hurry up and buy it :D





Just kidding.


I actually own it on psvr, i buy most vr titles.

Just letting you know, as someone who frequently gets recommended vr software by steam because i frequently buy vr software, that i have seen steam's algorithms recommend it to me.

An aside, i recommended it to a buddy with psvr for his sons birthday.

Fwiw the lack of vr reviews from major outlets is a much bigger concern than the storefront algorithms. Perhaps im unique, but just like shopping irl, i go into a store knowing what i want before i buy it. I dont just browse steam looking for things to buy. I dont really use review outlets either, but i will occasionally checj metacritic. Major, well respected games like budgetcuts have 2 metacritic reviews, none from a major outlet. That hurts vr dev more than anything, period.
 

m0dus

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I get it, but you are also personally involved. At the same time you also have to understand why so many consumers disregard these concerns: They actually don't concern them, there are so many games out there that everybody always has something to play besides the consumers don't have any power or say in how Steam deals with business partners internally.

It is up to devs to fight against it by ditching Steam and switching to other storefronts. I get that may be harder when you're developing for VR but from my understanding of your posts you are also on PSVR so just ditch Steam for your next project. In the end we are consumers of a product, we can't do much else but buy your products.

I definitely am personally involved and tbh, I've qualified my statements every time with that fact.

But I'm not condemning steam as a platform or a service. I want to communicate my experience. It's the fact that there is a definite disparity between what steam offers, for the cost, and what other platforms offer for the same cost. Beyond providing server space to host your game: visibility, support, etc.
 

Rosol

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Oct 29, 2017
1,396
I think because Steam is essentially a monopoly as a PC games storefront (Indie especially) the whole 'If you don't like it you can sell your games on other stores' arguments kind of fall flat - we all know this would certainly result in their game flopping.

It's like saying if you don't like your ISP you can go get internet somewhere else when your region only has 1 legitimate high speed ISP. It's natural to demand more from a company that is essentially a monopoly.
 

Deleted member 5167

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It's actually a bit disheartening to see how easily you disregard the concerns, to be honest. Nothing in this article is "new" or "shocking" at this point, it's common knowledge. But I realize my experience is anecdotal, though I can provide some context having worked with other platforms and a multitude of other devs.

A lot of the concerns raised aren't "lazy valve", they're based on what seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding of what the role of 'owner of steam' is and what they think it should be.
 

m0dus

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HTC is making the Vive with Valve. That's the difference. Sony is a 1st party company. They host shows, they have a social media platform to sell their stuff.

No, I haven't got curation wrong. What I mean is that devs asking for curation are basically asking other games out of the platform. They don't have any say on wheter your game is released. But they ask for curation so that less games are on the platform. So, when you ask for lower games to be removed, keep in mind other devs with higher production values than your product ask for yours to be out of the platform.

That's the paradox indeed, but at some point, you're supposed to pass the word about your game, in a way or another. And from what I see, 2 outlets on metacritic reviewed it. Again, I'm not taking a charge against your product, what I'm saying here is that shovelwares aren't responsible for your lack of visibility and low sales. The problem is, you have thousands of high quality competitors. In the regular market but also in the VR market, which is smaller and harsher.

The HTC/Valve connection is really irrelevant to the issue, though, as the platform is Valve's, the software is valves, and the technology in the headset is at least partially valves. They are taking an agreed upon cut of sales, the same cut they take for non-VR software, and to a certain extent can dictate price in other regions.

And no, curation does not automatically lock out games with smaller budgets or lower production values. Our first PSVR game had a budget of $2500. Curation, at minimum, ensures (or should ensure) a minimum level of quality and functionality. As developers we don't ask for curation because we want "less games on the platform," we ask for curation so that the pipeline isn't clogged with ridiculous NON-games and similar chaff. If you eliminate the cash grab asset flips and troll software from the distribution, you open the pipeline for legitimate software that otherwise gets buried in the deluge. So yeah, you've made some broad assumptions about curation that are incorrect.
 

ArnoldJRimmer

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Aug 22, 2018
1,322
The HTC/Valve connection is really irrelevant to the issue, though, as the platform is Valve's, the software is valves, and the technology in the headset is at least partially valves. They are taking an agreed upon cut of sales, the same cut they take for non-VR software, and to a certain extent can dictate price in other regions.

And no, curation does not automatically lock out games with smaller budgets or lower production values. Our first PSVR game had a budget of $2500. Curation ensures some level of quality. As developers we don't ask for curation because we want "less games on the platform," we ask for curation so that the pipeline isn't clogged with ridiculous NON-games and similar chaff. If you eliminate the cash grab asset flips and troll software from the distribution, you open the pipeline for legitimate software that otherwise gets buried in the deluge. So yeah, you've made some broad assumptions about curation that are incorrect.

I always hear people say this, but I've NEVER EVER been shown what I would consider trash games on Steam's home page. NEVER. Everything is highly rated and/or highly popular, or notable for some reason or another.

I just opened up my Steam home page to see what games I've got. Most of it is based on my wishlist, some comes recommended from curators I follow, some is based on current games I've been playing, and then the rest is popularity/sales, ratings driven.

I don't see a single game that would be labeled "chaff:", and somehow "clogging up the list of games".
 

Deleted member 5167

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The HTC/Valve connection is really irrelevant to the issue, though, as the platform is Valve's, the software is valves, and the technology in the headset is at least partially valves. They are taking an agreed upon cut of sales, the same cut they take for non-VR software, and to a certain extent can dictate price in other regions.

I'm pretty sure you're not advocating that Valve should take a bigger cut from VR titles as payment for the R&D and SDKs they provided that let those titles get made in the first place...
 

m0dus

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I always hear people say this, but I've NEVER EVER been shown what I would consider trash games on Steam's home page. NEVER. Everything is highly rated and/or highly popular, or notable for some reason or another.

It's not to say trash games are popping up on the home page, but volume definitely dictates visibility. If you have one quality product in a sea of subpar products, there is certainly an effect.
 

Deleted member 12790

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The HTC/Valve connection is really irrelevant to the issue, though, as the platform is Valve's, the software is valves, and the technology in the headset is at least partially valves. They are taking an agreed upon cut of sales, the same cut they take for non-VR software, and to a certain extent can dictate price in other regions.

And no, curation does not automatically lock out games with smaller budgets or lower production values. Our first PSVR game had a budget of $2500. Curation, at minimum, ensures (or should ensure) a minimum level of quality and functionality. As developers we don't ask for curation because we want "less games on the platform," we ask for curation so that the pipeline isn't clogged with ridiculous NON-games and similar chaff. If you eliminate the cash grab asset flips and troll software from the distribution, you open the pipeline for legitimate software that otherwise gets buried in the deluge. So yeah, you've made some broad assumptions about curation that are incorrect.

Er, so let me follow this leap with you. You have posited that you are not getting enough visibility with steam, that your game never gets recommended. How does that then make the leap that your game is buried under shovelware? Is steam recommending shovelware over your game? Do you have examples of this?
 

m0dus

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I'm pretty sure you're not advocating that Valve should take a bigger cut from VR titles as payment for the R&D and SDKs they provided that let those titles get made in the first place...

No dude, I'm not. I'm responding to the assertion that valve 'shouldnt' give VR titles visibility because they don't make the Vive hardware (nor do I actually believe that's the issue anyway). I am not touching upon their R & D costs whatsoever.
 

Mr.Deadshot

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Oct 27, 2017
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What's up with the recent Valve-hate?
Steam is still my go-to-place when it comes to digital gaming on PC. It's not perfect, but it's still easily the best platform.
 

GhostTrick

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Oct 25, 2017
11,304
The HTC/Valve connection is really irrelevant to the issue, though, as the platform is Valve's, the software is valves, and the technology in the headset is at least partially valves.

And no, curation does not automatically lock out games with smaller budgets or lower production values. Our first PSVR game had a budget of $2500. Curation ensures some level of quality. As developers we don't ask for curation because we want "less games on the platform," we ask for curation so that the pipeline isn't clogged with ridiculous NON-games and similar chaff. If you eliminate the cash grab asset flips and troll software from the distribution, you open the pipeline for legitimate software that otherwise gets buried in the deluge. So yeah, you've made some broad assumptions about curation that are incorrect.



Except you're having two wrong assumptions here:
-Curation only prevents shovelware from appearing on a platform.
-Shovelwares are hiding good games.

First, curation also prevents good games from releasing on a service. It always has been the case. See with GoG, see with Steam before. Heck, see with PlayStation Store/eShop/Xbox Live. Games such as Assault Android Cactus or Opus Magnum.

Second, shovelwares or cash grab asset flips aren't the games taking visibility from good titles. These games don't have any visibility, save if you like to make videos about them. The reality is that the indie market exploded in the recent years. Why ? Lot of middlewares (UE4, Unity, Gamemaker), self publishing and easier to publish (things that Valve pushed for). The games taking visibility from your game and many others are just better games or games with higher production values.
 

m0dus

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Er, so let me follow this leap with you. You have posited that you are not getting enough visibility with steam, that your game never gets recommended. How does that then make the leap that your game is buried under shovelware? Is steam recommending shovelware over your game? Do you have examples of this?

Not really. The scope of the discussion has really expanded well beyond what I was taking about - there are presently 3 or 4 different conversations I'm replying to at present.

Again. Comparing experience on two different platforms, for the same level of cut, there is a definite contrast.
 

m0dus

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Except you're having two wrong assumptions here:
-Curation only prevents shovelware from appearing on a platform.
-Shovelwares are hiding good games.

First, curation also prevents good games from releasing on a service. It always has been the case. See with GoG, see with Steam before. Heck, see with PlayStation Store/eShop/Xbox Live. Games such as Assault Android Cactus or Opus Magnum.

Second, shovelwares or cash grab asset flips aren't the games taking visibility from good titles. These games don't have any visibility, save if you like to make videos about them. The reality is that the indie market exploded in the recent years. Why ? Lot of middlewares (UE4, Unity, Gamemaker), self publishing and easier to publish (things that Valve pushed for). The games taking visibility from your game and many others are just better games or games with higher production values.

Tell you what: agree to disagree. Again, I've qualified everything as anecdotal experience on my part, so take it or leave it as you will.
 

ArnoldJRimmer

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Aug 22, 2018
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It's not to say trash games are popping up on the home page, but volume definitely dictates visibility. If you have one quality product in a sea of subpar products, there is certainly an effect.

That's NOT the problem. The problem is that there are too many GOOD games. Not there are a few good games and lots of crap. There is tremendous competition from a tremendous amount of good games.

It's true, a loooong time ago you could get away from being an ok game as long as you made it past Steam curation and into the store.

But that ship sailed when middleware and engines like Unity democratized game development. It's not enough to be just an ok game on Steam. You need to stand out, you need to be REALLY good.
 

Deleted member 12790

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Not really. The scope of the discussion has really expanded well beyond what I was taking about - there are presently 3 or 4 different conversations I'm replying to at present.

Again. Comparing experience on two different platforms, for the same level of cut, there is a definite contrast.

Im not following at all how that is not what you are saying. Because one one hand you say you arent clammoring for less games in general, which makes me think you are talking about visibility, but then in your next reply you say this:

It's not to say trash games are popping up on the home page, but volume definitely dictates visibility. If you have one quality product in a sea of subpar products, there is certainly an effect.

I truthfully cant tell what you think the solution is beyond "less games on steam."
 

Pantaghana

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Oct 26, 2017
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Croatia
Very few of those developers were willing to put their names to their criticisms, with one even saying that they were "pissing themselves in fear" about the idea of an off-the-record Discord voice call.
Why? Unless you start making death threats to Gabe or other Valve employees, I'm pretty sure Valve doesn't care.

Much like the Steam Workshop creator community, which lives in terror at the knowledge that Valve could cut off their income at any time, Steam developers know who holds all the power in the relationship.
Slightly more understandable, Valves communication on upcoming changes to the platform is pretty terrible. Something they share with YouTube.
 

m0dus

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Im not following at all how that is not what you are saying. Because one one hand you say you arent clammoring for less games in general, which makes me think you are talking about visibility, but then in your next reply you say this:



I truthfully cant tell what you think the solution is beyond "less games on steam."

Yeah - I'm positing that a problem exists, and based on reaponses, expanding on that, acknowledging there are likely multiple factors.

Edit 2:with regards to the 'less games' assertion, I suppose the answer lies somewhere in the middle, I'm sure, but these points of visibility and curation are not mutually exclusive. I imagine It's possible to ensure some degree of quality without dramatically reducing the number of games released, and its possible to provide easier visibility to smaller titles without depending on their sales qualifying them

Edit: I'll state again: having experienced development at the same level on two major platforms, the experience had been drastically different. Folks chime in to pose and sometimes argue their reasons why, and while I'm fine with responding and expanding on that, it goes beyond the point, which was the experience itself to begin with. I won't pretend to know the business side of things the way Valve or Sony does, all I can state with any certainty is that my experience with each has been, at times, dramatically different from an Indy perspective.

But if it's not clear I haven't really succeeded at clarifying my perspective. And we seem to be getting lost in the weeds. So, I'll leave it at that. No worries.
 
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Deleted member 12790

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Yeah - I'm positing that a problem exists, and based on reaponses, expanding on that, acknowledging there are likely multiple factors.

But if it's not clear I haven't really succeeded at clarifying my perspective. No worries.

I'll say this, then, as one last comment -- and reminder, I say this as someone who likes your game and recommended it to friends -- there is no single arbiter between quality and subquality, it will vary from person to person. Hence, I find nearly all claims that "quality stuff isn't standing out in a sea of rubbish" claims to be inherently nonsensical. People seem to think everybody is on the same page when they say "sea of bad games" but, in reality, nearly every person is talking about different games. I say this, because in a topic just not that long ago, somebody on this very forum said that all VR games were basically shovelware garbage and they were tired of them getting any visibility on steam.

Again, I like and recommended your game to friends. Just be aware that there will always be people who see this:

header.jpg


and will instantly consider it "garbage" and "shovelware" and even an "asset flip (because, let's be real here, laymen don't know what the fuck an asset flip is)." Were your game to gain visibility with non-vr owners, I can guarantee you that somewhere, somebody would use it as an example of "shovelware" clogging up their recommendations list. And again, to clarify, I DON'T think that.

That's why the solution of just "curating away" the bad games is impossible and not something at all I jive with. One man's trash is another man's treasure. Nobody can list a universally loved game. I'm sure everybody on this board has seen those "list the worst games in the world" topics on these forums where some edgy asshole comes in and lists some of the most popular games ever. And not because they don't earnestly dislike them.

EDIT: And, to further clarify, I do appreciate your shared experiences. I just personally disagree with the solution you propose as a result of those experiences.
 

m0dus

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I'll say this, then, as one last comment -- and reminder, I say this as someone who likes your game and recommended it to friends -- there is no single arbiter between quality and subquality, it will vary from person to person. Hence, I find nearly all claims that "quality stuff isn't standing out in a sea of rubbish" claims to be inherently nonsensical. People seem to think everybody is on the same page when they say "sea of bad games" but, in reality, nearly every person is talking about different games. I say this, because in a topic just not that long ago, somebody on this very forum said that all VR games were basically shovelware garbage and they were tired of them getting any visibility on steam.

Again, I like and recommended your game to friends. Just be aware that there will always be people who see this:

header.jpg


and will instantly consider it "garbage" and "shovelware" and even an "asset flip (because, let's be real here, laymen don't know what the fuck an asset flip is)." Were your game to gain visibility with non-vr owners, I can guarantee you that somewhere, somebody would use it as an example of "shovelware" clogging up their recommendations list. And again, to clarify, I DON'T think that.

That's why the solution of just "curating away" the bad games is impossible and not something at all I jive with. One man's trash is another man's treasure. Nobody can list a universally loved game. I'm sure everybody on this board has seen those "list the worst games in the world" topics on these forums where some edgy asshole comes in and lists some of the most popular games ever. And not because they don't earnestly dislike them.

Believe it or not, visuals have not been an issue on steam? Folks tend to immediately gravitate toward the flow of play and the mechanics. Even the negative reviews we've gotten did not take issue with the way it looks. Ironically, when we debuted the games trailer on PS4's YouTube, the visuals WERE immediately trounced upon :)

And that's expected, honestly, so I don't have issue with that. I certainly expect many if not most to take one look and think "Nope". And that's ok.

Again, im referring to what each platform holder offers in way of support, I think, relative to the percentages of sales you give them.

Lastly, curation may be as simple as seeing that a game is, for example, an exact clone of another game released on the store with a different name, which iirc is still an issue.

Oh, and thanks for the kind words about the game :)
 

Laser Man

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Oct 26, 2017
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Nah, I just think it'd tacky for me to post it :)

You probably have some actual data on that and maybe it can proove me wrong but I'd assume that an american football themed VR game is in itself extremely limited to the american market only (I don't know how the VR market is divided on a worldwide basis). I'm a fan of VR "fitness" games (if you can call em that) but I'm in europe and thats less than a niche sport for a niche gaming segment (VR). Even with 100% all raving reviews, people here would simply skip over it without a second thought.
 

Deleted member 12790

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Believe it or not, visuals have not been an issue on steam? Folks tend to immediately gravitate toward the flow of play and the mechanics. Even the negative reviews we've gotten did not take issue with the way it looks. Ironically, when we debuted the games trailer on PS4's YouTube, the visuals WERE immediately trounced upon :)

And that's expected, honestly, so I don't have issue with that. I certainly expect many if not most to take one look and think "Nope". And that's ok.

Again, im referring to what each platform holder offers in way of support, I think, relative to the percentages of sales you give them.

Lastly, curation may be as simple as seeing that a game is, for example, an exact clone of another game released on the store with a different name, which iirc is still an issue.

Oh, and thanks for the kind words about the game :)

Incidentally, checking out some of the reviews for your game, I'm running into a similar problem. I'm developing a VR basketball game for a large entity, and I have problems with throwing motions as well. I know the reason -- it's actually impossible to model a throwing motion without tracking your elbow, so I'm relying on some fuzzy math to "fix" the arc of my shot without the player knowing. If I rely on physics too much, and don't alter the shot, I get people telling me it feels like they're playing darts, where if I alter the shot too much, it honestly feels like lobbing grenades in Halo, haha. No real middle ground :-\
 
Oct 28, 2017
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I know I am part of the problem because I refuse to buy PC games that aren't on Steam. Because of that there are whole publishers (EA namely) whose games I don't even consider anymore from the moment I hear about them because I know they will be sold outside of Steam.

My loyalty has nothing to do with thinking Valve is some sort of good guy, and 100% to do with the fact that it feels like only Steam recognizes that I want my gaming PC to be a console (aka controller support, 10 foot big picture interface, doesn't need mouse and keyboard to navigate) and not this thing chained to a desk.
 

m0dus

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Incidentally, checking out some of the reviews for your game, I'm running into a similar problem. I'm developing a VR basketball game for a large entity, and I have problems with throwing motions as well. I know the reason -- it's actually impossible to model a throwing motion without tracking your elbow, so I'm relying on some fuzzy math to "fix" the arc of my shot without the player knowing. If I rely on physics too much, and don't alter the shot, I get people telling me it feels like they're playing darts, where if I alter the shot too much, it honestly feels like lobbing grenades in Halo, haha. No real middle ground :-\

I think a number of the issues people ran into were related to quirks introduced in the more recent versions of SteamVR - ironically it took a rollback to a previous version to resolve.

With regards to throwing motion, at least with basketball, I imagine you'd have to break it down per shot type, as modeling acceleration at various angles is a challenge at least in part dependent on the capabilities of the controller ;)
 

Deleted member 12790

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I think a number of the issues people ran into were related to quirks introduced in the more recent versions of SteamVR - ironically it took a rollback to a previous version to resolve.

With regards to throwing motion, at least with basketball, I imagine you'd have to break it down per shot type, as modeling acceleration at various angles is a challenge at least in part dependent on the capabilities of the controller ;)

Funnily enough, granny shots are the easiest to work with. I tried to get a pair of Vive Knuckles for the project, to allow for finger tracking to alter the shot, but this is going to be a commercial project soon enough, and thus I don't know if I could use vive knuckles would be available before the game needs to launch.

As a result, I've turned to spectacle above pure skill. Dazzle the player so they don't notice the aim assist. We have access the NBA Jam license, so we can do stuff like lighting their ball on fire or use the bombastic announcer.
 

m0dus

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You probably have some actual data on that and maybe it can proove me wrong but I'd assume that an american football themed VR game is in itself extremely limited to the american market only (I don't know how the VR market is divided on a worldwide basis). I'm a fan of VR "fitness" games (if you can call em that) but I'm in europe and thats less than a niche sport for a niche gaming segment (VR). Even with 100% all raving reviews, people here would simply skip over it without a second thought.

And to a degree I think that is absolutely true. Still, though, sometimes the highest quality experiences come from the least expected places. In our case, we tagged the game primarily as an arcade game, though there is depth in terms of football play for those who want it. I definitely agree VR is a niche, and unfortunately still one ruled by experimental and incomplete experiences. I want to be clear that my issue is not with sales numbers, though, it was merely an observation of what you get for your 30% ;)
 

PepsimanVsJoe

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Oct 26, 2017
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Fwiw the lack of vr reviews from major outlets is a much bigger concern than the storefront algorithms. Perhaps im unique, but just like shopping irl, i go into a store knowing what i want before i buy it. I dont just browse steam looking for things to buy. I dont really use review outlets either, but i will occasionally checj metacritic. Major, well respected games like budgetcuts have 2 metacritic reviews, none from a major outlet. That hurts vr dev more than anything, period.
Yep. It sucks.

Reviews don't get traffic, especially these days when everyone can just check metacritic. Thus games writers are doing more articles and features, such as the one this thread is discussing. Smaller developers aren't getting the coverage they need.
Admittedly I don't follow VR games, but I figure their niche status further compounds the issue. I'd guess that maybe 1 in 10 reviewers actually own a VR kit, and chances are high that they're not dedicated solely to covering VR games.
 

m0dus

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Funnily enough, granny shots are the easiest to work with. I tried to get a pair of Vive Knuckles for the project, to allow for finger tracking to alter the shot, but this is going to be a commercial project soon enough, and thus I don't know if I could use vive knuckles would be available before the game needs to launch.

As a result, I've turned to spectacle above pure skill. Dazzle the player so they don't notice the aim assist. We have access the NBA Jam license, so we can do stuff like lighting their ball on fire or use the bombastic announcer.

If there is any advice I can give, it's test a 3 camera oculus setup. Depending on VR implementation, it can create unpredictable results.

And I'm a bit late saying so, but you absolutely nailed the problem with the lack of mainstream reviews. Absolutely on the money.
 

eonden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,076
Yeah. Except if you look at Steam sales chart for China, where games cost 1/6th, it is mostly AAA games that requires mid to high gaming rigs.im not saying that regional pricing is bad, but I can see why some developers think it's unfair.
You can play pc games at much worse hardware than the recommended one if you want it enough. It is also possible that the sales come from internet cafes that buy the games for high end computers.
Regional pricing has greatly diminished the effect of piracy on regions. Previously, nobody wanted to publish pc games in russia or even latino america, nowadays they are a thriving market because the games are provided at a reasonable amount of money.
The idea of thinking it is "unfair" for people to have a ""cheaper"" price for games in non-key markets really means that they dont understand that the living costs in different parts of the world are so different and that being able to sell games there at a lower price would benefit them more than not selling any game because piracy is rampant
 

Nzyme32

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,245
I know I am part of the problem because I refuse to buy PC games that aren't on Steam. Because of that there are whole publishers (EA namely) whose games I don't even consider anymore from the moment I hear about them because I know they will be sold outside of Steam.

My loyalty has nothing to do with thinking Valve is some sort of good guy, and 100% to do with the fact that it feels like only Steam recognizes that I want my gaming PC to be a console (aka controller support, 10 foot big picture interface, doesn't need mouse and keyboard to navigate) and not this thing chained to a desk.

Sort of agree, but I don't have any "loyalty" towards anything in this way.
Steam ends up being an obvious ecosystem of choice thanks to so many features that genuinely prove hugely beneficial to how I play games. The continuous support of the PC ecosystem as a whole is also a huge boon for someone like me, keen on making sure I have flexibility and perpetuity of my games. Every other PC game distributor is so far behind it's not even funny - and it is blatantly obvious that Valve is in no way lazy with their approaches

As far as the current state of low barrier to entry, with the ever increasing high quality of games compared to the low end and sheer trolling / lazy end - Steam has the right approach - give the customers as many tools and customisability as possible to make up their own minds for what they find value in and freedom to assign curation as they see fit. This is far beyond every other gaming ecosystem and I love it.

There is plenty to have issue with from Steam and Valve, as I can discuss ad nauseam - but they remain far ahead vs every other gaming ecosystem out there for me.
 

Jawmuncher

Crisis Dino
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
38,392
Ibis Island
A lot of this really just comes down to the "gold-rush" of PC/Steam gaming not being a thing anymore.

Back when Steam was more strict, or the start of green light. Getting onto steam really did help with exposure and the like. Neither system was ever going to last however, which puts us where we are now.

We've seen this a lot with Indie Dev as a whole. The competition on any platform is ten-fold compared to how it used to be. It takes a lot to stick out. When it comes to indie dev, it seems like being able to put your games on more platforms (if your budget can manage it) might be the best bet going forward. However, even that can be a gamble going by the talk from devs.

For every "This game sold 4X more on PS4/Switch than PC" there's a game that managed to get on a majority of platforms and sold nothing everywhere.

I also want to add a note that Japanese Gaming did the same thing on the platform. While still healthy, you had people buying ANYTHING Japanese to get more support and now thtvthe support is there. We're back to being more picky (Outside when surprises happen like Yakuza and such).
 
Oct 31, 2017
8,466
Apparently this is a topic that needs to be debated every few weeks.
As a quick reminder, it used to be that accessing Steam was in itself some sort of privilege and indie devs complained about it for months. They got exactly what they asked for, which was Valve abdicating from any attempt to curate their store and letting everyone in, with a minimal (almost non-existent) barrier of entry.

To this day I'm still reading these sort of articles from game journos and/or opinion pieces from devs and I'm a bit confused on why the hell they seem to be going under the assumption that Steam should be the one doing marketing efforts for these titles. It's not.
Valve's algorithms are in place just to push even more what's already selling, not to "give a fair chance" to every garage developer on the (massively overcrowded) market.
 

eonden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,076
It's not to say trash games are popping up on the home page, but volume definitely dictates visibility. If you have one quality product in a sea of subpar products, there is certainly an effect.

Volume doesnt really dictate visibility on the store as it is based on internal ratings (which valve should be more open to tell the developers) which in the end are game dependant.

The notion of good games being drowned by bad games is partially true and partially false. It is true that it is not possible to follow every single pc gaming release but even if we were to prune all the "asset flips" and troll games we would still be left with more than 10 games a day, which is too many for anyone to follow. And if we just look at highly anticipated games, such as in here there are more than 30 in a given month in severa genres. And that is without taking into account the huge amount of legacy games that are still there and should be there which will stay there. The issue of an eternal library is that you will end up competing with all the history of pc gaming. That means that you are not a quality product in a sea of subpar products but a quality product in a huge pool with quality games of all times.

Marketing is a necesity nowadays that many sucesful indie developers seem to forget. I think I am not the only one that learned Hob had launched already when its studio went bankrupt, and that is quite common nowadays, the game is launched and you notice because you just read about it months later because there were just too many good games that by itself it didnt stand out. The great success indie stories have using a clever combination of marketing to ramp up to launch similar to AAA but in the pc market directly targeting their audience with influencers popular (such as Frostpunkt).

There are many things Steam should do in regards to helping promote indie games (I would love a Nindies style thing each month kinda like PC Gaming does with 7 games you might have missed this week) but putting the blame on the open door policy is a little bit misguided. You really have to try to find those really shitty games.
They should also improve their communication with both the users and the developers, as well as actually launching updates on time.
They should work in better integrating some of the steam functions onto steam as because they were developed as add ons they feel clunky.
They should continue developing functions that are "complete" instead of leaving them and making them subpar.
They should have more regular awards that could help some of the smaller forgotten gems shine again.
(and more things steam should do)

Now, more in regards to VR, due to the importance in the future and the fact that Valve is an invested part they should do much better without question.
 

Vergilius

Member
Apr 10, 2018
145
lol at this article and developers. Nobody forced you to release your game on Steam. They talk about 30% as a bad thing as if Sony or Micro provide services for free. Go release your games somewhere else and enjoy saving 30%.
 

Deleted member 5167

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,114
I do get the feeling that some developers think that Steams 30% retail cut is / should be the same as a console licencing fee or a traditional publisher cut
 

Remember

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,484
Chicago, IL United States
If you are an indiedev, being a business man is half your profession.

You kinda have to be (or at least have some basic business knowledge) if you want to make a living of it. No one's gonna hand it to you on a silver platter.

And yet those developers are usually the ones made fun of or who are taken advantage of, because their true passion was never business to begin with. My point is mainly for those in the first few pages making fun of the things that they are saying in regards to exchange rates, percentages, and other aspects of business. It's important that those same developers speak to or hire someone with experience when it comes to doing business, but I don't think it's cool to make fun of them because they simply didn't know or are ignorant of some of those aspects.